Why do people insist on being such bums?

[Strike For The South]

I mean is it really that hard to shower, shave, and put on some decent threads?

Have some pride man.

I realize these bastages can wear what they want but it contributes to an impolite and slobbish society.

That’s another thing when I was a boy my parents would hit me in the back of the head if I didn't call someone sir or mam no matter what their standing.

People call me dude left and right these days, now if I'm knocking back a few with the lads that's fine. I known those boys all my life but when I'm at work or school show me the same damn respect I show you son.

Some of these people have kids to and they are the worst of all. I never acted out in public because I was scared my parents would murder me rather than face embarassment

Hell in a hand basket

[al Roumi]

Some of these people have kids to and they are the worst of all. I never acted out in public because I was scared my parents would murder me rather than face embarassment

Repressed much?

[Fragony]

It's winter

[Strike For The South]

Repressed much?

Because I was taught respect? No.

Contrary to popular opinion, having gages in your ears, holes in your nose, and a ratty retero t-shirt does not make you special

It makes you an ass

[al Roumi]

Because I was taught respect? No.

Contrary to popular opinion, having gages in your ears, holes in your nose, and a ratty retero t-shirt does not make you special

It makes you an ass

No man, it totally reflects your character.

bleh.

Wearing chinos and boating shoes is what makes you an ass.

[gaelic cowboy]

I mean is it really that hard to shower, shave, and put on some decent threads?

Have some pride man.

I realize these bastages can wear what they want but it contributes to an impolite and slobbish society.

That’s another thing when I was a boy my parents would hit me in the back of the head if I didn't call someone sir or mam no matter what their standing.

People call me dude left and right these days, now if I'm knocking back a few with the lads that's fine. I known those boys all my life but when I'm at work or school show me the same damn respect I show you son.

Some of these people have kids to and they are the worst of all. I never acted out in public because I was scared my parents would murder me rather than face embarassment

Hell in a hand basket


I agree 100% Strike

[Strike For The South]

No man, it totally reflects your character.

bleh.

Wearing chinos and boating shoes is what makes you an ass.

chinons? What is this 1982?

I wouldn't mind if they looked like that (A style which I find reprehensible and unbecoming) if they at least showed a bit of respect, which nearly none of them done. It's the arrogance and the complete disreagard for politness.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Because I was taught respect? No.

Contrary to popular opinion, having gages in your ears, holes in your nose, and a ratty retero t-shirt does not make you special

It makes you an ass



You said a bad word dude, wash your month out with soap!

[Riedquat]

Mr Strike, people seeing you like an equal has nothing to do with disrespect in my book; perhaps when you become older you would prefer being called "dude" before Sir... at least I do ;)

[Veho Nex]

When I worked at McD's, i referred to all my customers as Sir or Mam. My boss got pissed at me for doing it. Still not sure what the reasoning behind it was.

[Strike For The South]

When I worked at McD's, i referred to all my customers as Sir or Mam. My boss got pissed at me for doing it. Still not sure what the reasoning behind it was.

See that's another thing, If I ever move out of Texas my head might explode

[Rhyfelwyr]

Surely the intention/manner in which they say things is more important than the words they use? I try to be polite but I dont' call people sir/madam, don't call them dude either though.

[HoreTore]

I find using polite phrases to be the ultimate sign of disrespect.


I you don't really wish me a "merry christmas", for example, then don't say it. Saying "merry christmas" when you really don't give a crap about how their christmas is - I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that. I much prefer honesty.

[Strike For The South]

I find using polite phrases to be the ultimate sign of disrespect.


I you don't really wish me a "merry christmas", for example, then don't say it. Saying "merry christmas" when you really don't give a crap about how their christmas is - I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that. I much prefer honesty.

Tact is lost on you.

[HoreTore]

Tact is lost on you.

Yes it is indeed.

I prefer honesty and integrity. Lying on a daily basis isn't my cup of tea. Keep your bourgeoisie customs to yourself. ~;)

[Strike For The South]

Yes it is indeed.

I prefer honesty and integrity. Lying on a daily basis isn't my cup of tea. Keep your bourgeoisie customs to yourself. ~;)

So simple respect and grooming is out the window? I do not lie when I show someone respect nor is my integrity harmed when I tuck in my shirt

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I find using polite phrases to be the ultimate sign of disrespect.


I you don't really wish me a "merry christmas", for example, then don't say it. Saying "merry christmas" when you really don't give a crap about how their christmas is - I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that. I much prefer honesty.

Aren't you just confused about what they mean? Like how when people say "how's it going" that just means "hi", "merry christmas" is a social thing like that.

Also, don't say "I can't think of anything more disrespectful" than saying merry christmas, and then say how you prefer honesty :p

[HoreTore]

So simple respect and grooming is out the window? I do not lie when I show someone respect nor is my integrity harmed when I tuck in my shirt

I was referring to verbal communication. But no, I don't see why other people should conform to my standards of grooming either, that is for themselves to decide.


Aren't you just confused about what they mean? Like how when people say "how's it going" that just means "hi", "merry christmas" is a social thing like that.

Also, don't say "I can't think of anything more disrespectful" than saying merry christmas, and then say how you prefer honesty :p

Well, I couldn't(didn't) at the time I said it.... :clown:

[Rhyfelwyr]

I prefer honesty and integrity. Lying on a daily basis isn't my cup of tea. Keep your bourgeoisie customs to yourself. ~;)

+1

I find often the people that stick with the formal customs etc are actually often bitchy and not nice people, I would rather just have a genuine conversation with someone. Screw niceties, when you have a problem with someone then deal with it, it is disrespectful to them to pretend otherwise.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

+1

I find often the people that stick with the formal customs etc are actually often bitchy and not nice people,

Well, often people who don't stick with formal customs are not nice people. So I don't know what kind of general conclusion you can make, other than "insincerity is bad". But tact isn't insincerity. If you don't like someones painting for example, insincerity is praising it, tact is not making them feel bad just because you don't like their painting, which can involve giving an honest assessment.


I would rather just have a genuine conversation with someone. Screw niceties, when you have a problem with someone then deal with it, it is disrespectful to them to pretend otherwise.

If you don't respect them, isn't it honest to be disrespectful? :p

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well, often people who don't stick with formal customs are not nice people. So I don't know what kind of general conclusion you can make, other than "insincerity is bad". But tact isn't insincerity. If you don't like someones painting for example, insincerity is praising it, tact is not making them feel bad just because you don't like their painting, which can involve giving an honest assessment.

"insincerity is bad" is precisely the point I was making. Of course, not all people that do not bother with formal customs are nice people. I have no idea what percentage of people that bother with such customs are nice when compared with those who don't, there would probably be too many indirectly related factors to get a meaningful statistic.

Also, tact is a whole different matter from formal customs. There can be overlap but it doesn't have to be so.


If you don't respect them, isn't it honest to be disrespectful? :p

Yes. I think everyone is afforded some level of respect as human beings, but beyond that I'm not going to pretend. At least be disrespectful in an open way.

[HoreTore]

Well, often people who don't stick with formal customs are not nice people. So I don't know what kind of general conclusion you can make, other than "insincerity is bad". But tact isn't insincerity. If you don't like someones painting for example, insincerity is praising it, tact is not making them feel bad just because you don't like their painting, which can involve giving an honest assessment.

Are you really showing people respect if you refrain from giving constructive criticism, thus taking away their opportunity to progress?

[Dîn-Heru]

I find using polite phrases to be the ultimate sign of disrespect.


I you don't really wish me a "merry christmas", for example, then don't say it. Saying "merry christmas" when you really don't give a crap about how their christmas is - I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that. I much prefer honesty.

Are polite phrases disrespectful?

Yesterday I was at the hairdresser and when I left she said merry christmas and I responded in kind. I do not care if she actually has a merry christmas, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Was this exchange dishonest? I say no, because whilst I do not care, I sure hope she has a merry christmas. The thing about polite phrases is that they ease interaction between strangers. Can you honestly say that when you worked at the gas station you preferred the costumers who were demanding and rude?
I can assure you that not everybody feel this way. When I came back from Australia last year I missed my flight from Oslo to my hometown and had to buy a new ticket at the airport. While I stood in line one guy had an argument with the lady at the desk and although I did not hear the exact words he used, it sure looked and sounded like he gave her his honest opinion of her and SAS. Then when my number seemed to get skipped over (there were several desks and the one where my number showed did not have a SAS sign so I did not see it) I approached her to ask why my number had been skipped over and she basically snapped at me, the rude guy had basically made her day worse and she took it out on other passengers (this was just a couple of days before christmas so they were fairly stressed already).
The point I'm trying to make is this, in a world where most of the people we interact with will never cross our path for more than a few moments, what point is there in being (brutally) honest? Sure, you can say that honesty is a noble ideal, (and I agree with that sentiment), but is it not better to leave the brief encounter with a smile and a kind word rather than a sincere F' off?

As a sidenote:
I do not know if this debate has reached your side of the mountain since it has to the with the implementation of a common set of rules for acceptable behavior for children at school in Bergen. Anyway I would just like to hear what you as a teacher think of one of the issues raised. One of the suggested rules is that the pupils have to greet the teachers and principal when they enter the classroom (I don't remeber if they have to stand up or not, but I imagine that they would have to). One principal described this as cold blast from the past and a form of "carcass disipline" (kadaverdisiplin) that he would not agree to enforce in his school and that the teachers should earn the respect of the pupils before they had to treat the teachers with respect in return. One of the letters to the editor that came in response to this said something I agree with. "When you meet people you should treat them with respect, they then have to work to keep your respect of them" Anyway, I just wondered what your opinion on this is? (I'll dig up links in BT if you like)

[Rhyfelwyr]

One of the suggested rules is that the pupils have to greet the teachers and principal when they enter the classroom (I don't remeber if they have to stand up or not, but I imagine that they would have to).

wow that brings back memories. I don't know if it is a feature of British schools (or even more local than that), but we always had a weird thing where the teacher would come in and say "morning class", to which we would all reply in unison in some sort of really creepy tone "good moooorning misses x". The weird thing was we almost sung it, you draw out the ooo in morning and raise your pitch as you say it, like Australians do at the end of a sentence. Damn that was weird thinking back.

[HoreTore]

Was this exchange dishonest? I say no, because whilst I do not care, I sure hope she has a merry christmas.

Then we have no disagreement, since you did mean what you said ~;)


As a sidenote:
I do not know if this debate has reached your side of the mountain since it has to the with the implementation of a common set of rules for acceptable behavior for children at school in Bergen. Anyway I would just like to hear what you as a teacher think of one of the issues raised. One of the suggested rules is that the pupils have to greet the teachers and principal when they enter the classroom (I don't remeber if they have to stand up or not, but I imagine that they would have to). One principal described this as cold blast from the past and a form of "carcass disipline" (kadaverdisiplin) that he would not agree to enforce in his school and that the teachers should earn the respect of the pupils before they had to treat the teachers with respect in return. One of the letters to the editor that came in response to this said something I agree with. "When you meet people you should treat them with respect, they then have to work to keep your respect of them" Anyway, I just wondered what your opinion on this is? (I'll dig up links in BT if you like)

Linkys very much appriciated!!

By "greeting the students when they enter the classroom", I assume you mean shaking hands with each one as they enter? If so, then it's a tried and tested trick to ensure that every pupil feels heard and acknowledged, and I am not quite sure why a principal would object to that... I'm doing it myself to great effect. Felt weird the first couple of times, but you get into it quickly. The pro's are that no student will get left behind this way, as you shake hands with, look in the eyes and say hello to every one of them, there's no way for shy pupils to hide. It also eases the transition from the active and playful state to the calmer state needed to learn.

I do, however, object to it if they make it mandatory. People are different, something may work with one teacher in this situation, something else may work for another teacher in a different situation.

[miotas]

wow that brings back memories. I don't know if it is a feature of British schools (or even more local than that), but we always had a weird thing where the teacher would come in and say "morning class", to which we would all reply in unison in some sort of really creepy tone "good moooorning misses x". The weird thing was we almost sung it, you draw out the ooo in morning and raise your pitch as you say it, like Australians do at the end of a sentence. Damn that was weird thinking back.

We used to do the sing songish greeting as well back in primary school.

I treat everyone I meet politely, but I always think it's weird when I see americans on TV refering to everyone as "sir". The only people I've ever called "sir" or "miss" are teachers. Refering to everyone with a term of utmost respect seems to me like you are saying that you hold no respect for anyone.

I usually just use "mate" to greet anyone I meet.

[Dîn-Heru]

Then we have no disagreement, since you did mean what you said ~;)

Hehe, fair enough I worded myself poorly.

The only link I seem to be able to find is the editorial http://www.bt.no/meninger/leder/Autoritetsangsten-1207665.html . I, like you, prefer my paper on paper, and that is where I read it. I am pretty sure that the rule they are thinking of is that the pupils have to stand by their desks and say good morning/day teacher or something like that. I think I prefer your method (at least when it comes to the beginning of the day, seems a bit time-consuming if you have to do that for every new set of pupils). We do seem to agree in that the teacher has to signal that he/she is the one in charge in the classroom and that it is a place of learning not playtime.

I'll do another search tomorrow, it's bedtime now, but I have a suspicion that the original article is only available on paper or pay-per-view pdf.

[Shibumi]

It is all a matter of perspective, is it not?

I think that the TS is a total bum setting his glass down before all the ladies have after a toast.



I have learnt long since not to judge people by their more superficial values... Someone calling me "dude" might have a lot to bring all of his own, even though his microculture clashes with my own.

And if someones behaviour really upsets me, I find solace in the fact he will not reach the level of society I am in anyway. I found that it is mainly the middle class who takes offense to small issues such as these.. People of the upper class do not have to worry.

*shrugs*


Edit: I thought TS was american, but then I noticed his address in France. Baffled me a bit, as a frenchman, he should know better. After all, his country is the epitome of class-clashes, and one would have hoped some lesson would have been learnt.

[HoreTore]

Hehe, fair enough I worded myself poorly.

The only link I seem to be able to find is the editorial http://www.bt.no/meninger/leder/Autoritetsangsten-1207665.html . I like you prefer my paper on paper, and that is where I read it. I am pretty sure that the rule they are thinking of is that the pupils have to stand by their desks and say good morning/day teacher or something like that. I think I prefer your method (at least when it comes to the beginning of the day, seems a bit time-consuming if you have to do that for every new set of pupils).

I'll do another search tomorrow, it's bedtime now, but I have a suspicion that the original article is only available on paper or pay-per-view pdf.

"We do seem to agree in that the teacher has to signal that he/she is the one in charge in the classroom and that it is a place of learning not playtime. "

This is more of a by-product. The primary reason I do it is to make sure every student is seen and acknowledged.

Anyway, as to the case at hand: I strongly disagree.

You need a calm and relax atmosphere in order to learn. Pupils have to focus on learning, not everything else. I agree with this. The way proposed in Bergen, however, is a classic example of how things shouldn't be done, in my (arrogant) opinion.

First of all, every class requires a set of rules for how we behave in class and towards each other. But this set of rules is so much more effective when the children gets to decide on these rules themselves. a 10-yer old is perfectly capable of understanding what he needs in order to enjoy his time at school and maximize his learning, why take away his sense of worth by shoving rules down his troath that he is fully capable of deciding on himself? At the beginning of the year, the head teacher(kontaktlærer) should use take an hour with his class to decide on the rules. They are fully capable of performing the democratic process needed to agree on a set of rules, and they are also fully capable of seeing what rules are needed. And when they make the rules themselves, they get an attachment to those rules, and are thus more likely to respect them. By taking that decision from them, you don't get that effect, and further, the course plan(læreplan) states that the pupils are to learn about democracy in practice, something they will if they are allowed to make these decisions themselves.

As to this specific measure: I am both for and against it. I am for it in the sense that it is one of a number of things a teacher can do to help his class in the transition from playtime to classtime, but I am against it because it's just one of dozens of things. I don't do it anymore myself, because I have found other things that work for me(and my colleagues). I shake hands every morning, and later in the day I have a specific spot I stand at(with a specific pose), my pupils know this is the signal that they should be quiet. If they still aren't qiuet, I count slowly "one....two....three...etc", works like a charm.

This is a clear case of clueless people meddling with their own personal opinions without having any backing for their position in literature. Otherwise known as the grade "F". There are an enourmous amount of things a teacher can do to instill respect and get a calm classroom, having some idiot politician force us to use a specific one has got to be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.



And sorry for my rambling, you know what the clock is :clown:

[Yoyoma1910]

Anybody here spare some change?

[Fragony]

+1

I find often the people that stick with the formal customs etc are actually often bitchy and not nice people, I would rather just have a genuine conversation with someone. Screw niceties, when you have a problem with someone then deal with it, it is disrespectful to them to pretend otherwise.

Move to the Netherlands, we take pride in bluntness, sparing someones feelings isn't apreciated. It insults us in fact, we feel treated like a fool if you don't speak your mind.

[Tellos Athenaios]

We do?

[rajpoot]

wow that brings back memories. I don't know if it is a feature of British schools (or even more local than that), but we always had a weird thing where the teacher would come in and say "morning class", to which we would all reply in unison in some sort of really creepy tone "good moooorning misses x". The weird thing was we almost sung it, you draw out the ooo in morning and raise your pitch as you say it, like Australians do at the end of a sentence. Damn that was weird thinking back.

Oh oh, we had to do it too.I used to really hate it....the sing song thing I mean, not the 'wishing the teacher goodmorning' part. It was supposed to be a part of inculcating good values in children and to teach them that they ought to respect their elders.
Of course once the teacher started teaching, the paper planes started flying and all thought of respect was forgotten.

[Fragony]

We do?

Yep, you don't travel much do you.

[Tellos Athenaios]

No, I just think this whole blunt is good sentiment is rather overstated.

[rajpoot]

A world where everyone states their feelings openly, just so that they don't have to lie....a place where everyone is absolutely candid. Such a world would be a very simple and hassle free place to stay. No trying to read between lines, no sulking friends/girlfriend/relatives.....Plus people will actually learn their faults and shortcoming a lot quicker and either deal with them.....
Then give this be blunt and truthful thing another century or so, and the natural evolution will be people murdering each other in the streets just because they never learned to mask their feelings or keep restraint, and the truthful thing to do is do away with the chap you hate because that is what you want to do.....
I'm not saying that being genuine is wrong, or being frank is wrong, but one must judge as to what should be the limit. For instance in my eyes, being polite, even if one does not give a damn, is not wrong as long as it makes the person in front happy. It's like lying for a good cause...

[Dîn-Heru]

This is a clear case of clueless people meddling with their own personal opinions without having any backing for their position in literature. Otherwise known as the grade "F". There are an enourmous amount of things a teacher can do to instill respect and get a calm classroom, having some idiot politician force us to use a specific one has got to be one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

I found the article, but I was right, it was only in a pay-per-view pdf. Costs 15 kr for the page, but I don't think it gives much more information than the link I gave you.

Well, the anarchist in me agree that there should be as little interference from central government as possible, so as long as it works I do not see why the teacher/individual school should not be able to use the method of their choice in order to make the classroom a good environment for all involved. Well, I only wanted to hear the opinion of a teacher on the issue since it is somewhat related to the thread. (Could have asked my aunt, but I won't see her before christmas and by that time I probably would have forgotten about it anyway... I think she would agree with you as well come to think of it.)

[Fragony]

No, I just think this whole blunt is good sentiment is rather overstated.

Takes a foreigners view. Believe me when I say that the way we interact is kinda 'odd' to outsiders, they are amazed (and often appalled), you don't notice it because you are from here.

http://forum.expatica.com/lofiversion/index.php/t85620.html

count the times you think 'what's wrong with that'

[naut]

Wearing chinos and boating shoes is what makes you an ass.
Yep.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llqc9n1DoUs


I usually just use "mate" to greet anyone I meet.
Mate, me too. Then again. Aussies tend to swear a fair bit too. I only realised how much we actually swear when I was overseas with mates.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Takes a foreigners view. Believe me when I say that the way we interact is kinda 'odd' to outsiders, they are amazed (and often appalled), you don't notice it because you are from here.

http://forum.expatica.com/lofiversion/index.php/t85620.html

count the times you think 'what's wrong with that'

Actually, I thought a lot of "yep, that was rude of them". But I was rather more specifically referring to the taking of the giving & taking equation. In my experience that really isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Fragony is this you? (From the link you supplied)

As a Dutchman I must admit that all of you are right. But hey! I think that most Dutch are assholes too, so why bother. Can't argue with assholes. Complete waste of time. However, there is no such joy as to be a complete asshole to another asshole. Don't bother being polite. If you want something, demand. They think you're an asshole anyway so why restrain? Most Dutch are not even aware of the impact on brittle souls caused by some straight a to b remarks.

The writing style is strikingly similar.

[Fragony]

Actually, I thought a lot of "yep, that was rude of them". But I was rather more specifically referring to the taking of the giving & taking equation. In my experience that really isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Well that mythical place called 'the rest of the world' disagrees with that. The Dutch have less social restraints and are secretly kinda proud of that when it's pointed out. Americans are worst, terribly overfriendly to us, but they are actually really friendly, we are all ewwwwwwwww when they do that watchawantwth?. Fun read 'The Undutchables' written by an American who moved to here, might find a few things you never noticed about yourself, what's completely normal to us can be staggeringly rude if you didn't grow up here.

edit: no that's not me, I never swear

[HoreTore]

Well, the anarchist in me agree that there should be as little interference from central government as possible, so as long as it works I do not see why the teacher/individual school should not be able to use the method of their choice in order to make the classroom a good environment for all involved.

It's not about "central government interference". It's about what works and what doesn't. If a teacher finds that doing this works, then do it. If it doesn't, why do it? Because I can garantuee you, it will not have an effect everywhere. But bah, I expect no more from a city council dominated by right-wingers.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well that mythical place called 'the rest of the world' disagrees with that.
I'm not sure I'm following you (or vice versa here?), so I guess I'll have to rephrase: what I meant was the thread was full of recited samples of what might be termed plain rudeness (if not stronger). But at the same time I'm wondering how much truth there is in the notion that “blunt->rude is good” or even useful in everyday conversation, since I don't buy into the idea that Dutch people are actually appreciating being told blunty that they're a rude, ignorant and unkempt lot... ~:)


and are secretly kinda proud of that when it's pointed out. Possibly, didn't contest that one.

Americans are worst, terribly overfriendly to us, but they are actually really friendly, we are all ewwwwwwwww when they do that watchawantwth?

True, although part of that is pure idiom. Depending where you go, you won't ever hear the locals say they like something, rather they do not dislike it. And really that's saying the same but differently.

[Fragony]

If I misunderstood the question you must have put it wrongly ;)

It's just that if you don't speak your mind and crap on their head you are being dishonest and wasting their time. That is a pretty unique feat in the Dutch mindset. We don't do pleasant we go in with a stretched leg, even as close as Belgium it's completely different.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I mean is it really that hard to shower, shave, and put on some decent threads?

Have some pride man.

I realize these bastages can wear what they want but it contributes to an impolite and slobbish society.

That’s another thing when I was a boy my parents would hit me in the back of the head if I didn't call someone sir or mam no matter what their standing.

People call me dude left and right these days, now if I'm knocking back a few with the lads that's fine. I known those boys all my life but when I'm at work or school show me the same damn respect I show you son.

Some of these people have kids to and they are the worst of all. I never acted out in public because I was scared my parents would murder me rather than face embarassment

Hell in a hand basket

There should be no ulterior reason to be respectful, courteous, and polite other than it's the right thing to do. It's not contingent upon perceived social status or upon possible benefits gained by behaving decently. If it is, then one's moral compass needs recalibration.

[Ser Clegane]

We don't do pleasant we go in with a stretched leg

I would agree that in general Dutch seem to be very straight forward and "blunt" in the communication (whether this is a great thing or not obviously might depend on the situation/setting). In my experience this becomes even more obvious in business meetings than in "normal" interactions.
And this assessments comes from a German - I don't think we are widely known for beating around the bush either...

[HoreTore]

And this assessments comes from a German - I don't think we are widely known for beating around the bush either...

You're widely known for doing lots of weird stuff around the bush.........

[Dîn-Heru]

It's not about "central government interference". It's about what works and what doesn't. If a teacher finds that doing this works, then do it. If it doesn't, why do it? Because I can garantuee you, it will not have an effect everywhere. But bah, I expect no more from a city council dominated by right-wingers.

I should probably clarify, when I said central goverment I meant the city council in this case (although it is applicable if it should become a national standard as well.) Just for the record, we are in agreement. Let the teachers do what works and let them be the judges of whether or not it works.

[Fragony]

I would agree that in general Dutch seem to be very straight forward and "blunt" in the communication (whether this is a great thing or not obviously might depend on the situation/setting). In my experience this becomes even more obvious in business meetings than in "normal" interactions.
And this assessments comes from a German - I don't think we are widely known for beating around the bush either...

I can explain that for you, work and play are strictly seperated. If you want to get serious frowning try talking about your job in your spare-time, nobody cares about your job. Likewise in business meetings it's all business. They will be totally different in social situations, that's time off after all

[HoreTore]

I should probably clarify, when I said central goverment I meant the city council in this case

So did I ~;)