View Full Version : Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.
One person killed in the attack. The number of casualties means the police have now put aside the initial lead that it might have been Einstein planning it.
Further, it was made in close vicinity to the whole Nobel thing, just a day late. One would have thought the nutcase at LEAST could have striked some more valuable target.
One can just hope this tragic event will lead to people now taking a bigger interest in politics. Oh, and realising we are at war.
Hosakawa Tito
12-12-2010, 12:43
Here's a link from WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703380104576014941387239896.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_world). From this report it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Nobel Prize ceremony.
PanzerJaeger
12-12-2010, 13:40
There is a thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132008-This-Week-s-Yet-Another-Islamic-Terrorist-Discovered-Thread) for this. :mean:
HoreTore
12-12-2010, 13:47
Yes, we truly are under attack, these terrorists are clearly a treath to our security!!
/sarcasm&irony
I wonder which civil liberties you swedes will be robbed of now. Oh well, you're welcome to join the thousands who have already fled to the freedom in Greater Norway! Plenty of bars here for you to tend to ~:)
More to come Swedes will just have to live with it. That's what you get for desperately craving a multicultural society without asking any questions on who and where from. This was just an idiot by the way, amateur who's brain fried nothing serious, stupidly invited
HoreTore
12-12-2010, 14:00
Yes, the swedes should REALLY be afraid of even more people doing suicides in spectacular ways.
/sarcasm&irony again
This is just more proof that we have absolutely nothing to fear from "muslim tewwowists".
Yes, the swedes should REALLY be afraid of even more people doing suicides in spectacular ways.
/sarcasm&irony again
This is just more proof that we have absolutely nothing to fear from "muslim tewwowists".
Of course it's going to happen again, this is more like the Columbine shootings not a terrorist attack, confused kid
Here's a link from WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703380104576014941387239896.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_world). From this report it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Nobel Prize ceremony.
True, that was my point. At the very least the nutcase could have done it the day before, would have had a much bigger impact.
More to come Swedes will just have to live with it. That's what you get for desperately craving a multicultural society without asking any questions on who and where from. This was just an idiot by the way, amateur who's brain fried nothing serious, stupidly invited
Agreed. One could hope people would start to understand what quality of people we are accepting with open arms.
Yes, the swedes should REALLY be afraid of even more people doing suicides in spectacular ways.
/sarcasm&irony again
This is just more proof that we have absolutely nothing to fear from "muslim tewwowists".
Pretty much so, yes. And I seriously hope we dont start going all US on ourselves, more than we already have, that is..
Hope you guys can keep your calms, Horetore is right on this was a spectacular suicide, nothing more.
I just noticed... the only one killed in the attack was the suicide bomber himself. I dont even think anyone else got hurt. Maybe he was going for the darwin award..
Rhyfelwyr
12-12-2010, 14:34
Agreed. One could hope people would start to understand what quality of people we are accepting with open arms.
So out of all the Muslims in Sweden they manage to pull off one failed terrorist attack, and this shows what a dangerous and evil lot they are?
The only danger that will come of this attack is the restriction on civil liberties that will follow from the inevitable hyperbole.
I just noticed... the only one killed in the attack was the suicide bomber himself. I dont even think anyone else got hurt. Maybe he was going for the darwin award..
And his bomb was so crap he still managed to get 300m away before he kicked the bucket.
HoreTore
12-12-2010, 14:53
So out of all the Muslims in Sweden they manage to pull off one failed terrorist attack, and this shows what a dangerous and evil lot they are?
The only danger that will come of this attack is the restriction on civil liberties that will follow from the inevitable hyperbole.
Indeed....
How's that Olof Palme murder going, Sweden? Figured it out yet? No?
Rhyfelwyr
12-12-2010, 15:01
I heard some Swedish guy killed someone once, it really makes me wonder what quality of people Swedes are...
Is this the new sarcasm and derogatory comments thread?
On the radio here they said there were nails involved, which doesn't sound like a suicide, you know, bomb + nails = flying nails.
Of course so shortly after an incident the info is a bit unreliable, as this thread shows.
HoreTore
12-12-2010, 15:13
Is this the new sarcasm and derogatory comments thread?
On the radio here they said there were nails involved, which doesn't sound like a suicide, you know, bomb + nails = flying nails.
Of course so shortly after an incident the info is a bit unreliable, as this thread shows.
Not saying that wasn't his intention, we're saying that was the result.
Rhyfelwyr, well we do accept a lot of people who do not believe in democracy, who do not believe in a free press, and who are fanatically religious. Sure, this one was a bit more nutty than the average guy, but if you (as an example) look at the 200 people ruining Lars Vilks lecture, you see that this is not an isolated incident.
The problem is bigger than this one guy, albeit yesterday things were taken to its extreme through him.
Husar, as HoreTore said, his intention was to blow himself up and take loads with him. Thankfully he was not the brainiest guy around.
His letter states he did it cause of Swedens support of Lars Vilks, and because of Swedens war in Afghanistan. I respect him in a way, at least he fights for what he believes in, and we are at war. We should not be surprised when war then comes to us.
Rhyfelwyr
12-12-2010, 21:27
Oh I don't deny there are problems with teh Islam, I just don't see what this story adds to the issue.
IMO our primary concerns with Islam in the west is not about terrorism, but social issues. I'm more worried about how some Muslim women are treated by their husbands, than I am about getting blown up on a bus.
HoreTore
12-12-2010, 21:47
Oh I don't deny there are problems with teh Islam, I just don't see what this story adds to the issue.
IMO our primary concerns with Islam in the west is not about terrorism, but social issues. I'm more worried about how some Muslim women are treated by their husbands, than I am about getting blown up on a bus.
....and that, again, is not an argument against immigration per se, I might add.
How badly they may be treated here, at least they get prosecuted when they whack the misses, as opposed to getting a medal for it.
Rhyfelwyr
12-12-2010, 21:58
Yes, I never used it as an argument against immigration.
HoreTore
12-13-2010, 07:32
Oh look (http://www.irn.no/) - the Norwegian Islamic Council(the umbrella organization representing most muslim communities in Norway) immediately condemned the guy. But I guess this is just part of their deceitful plan to conquer the country...
Oh look (http://www.irn.no/) - the Norwegian Islamic Council(the umbrella organization representing most muslim communities in Norway) immediately condemned the guy. But I guess this is just part of their deceitful plan to conquer the country...
So did Swedens.
With all the important muslims condemning acts like this, one wonders why few muslims seem to care.
Oh look (http://www.irn.no/) - the Norwegian Islamic Council(the umbrella organization representing most muslim communities in Norway) immediately condemned the guy. But I guess this is just part of their deceitful plan to conquer the country...
who are you arguing with, nobody said anything like that, leftist projection
edit pic of splosion-boy http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2010/12/dit_is_de_zweedse_zelfmoordplo.html#comments
Update; arrests in England. Because it's Sweden the police still keeps their jaws firmly locked on the background. Policor-lemmings.
Shibumi, how much of tnis is true? http://cavatus.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/scandalous-constitution-passed/
I know it's Sweden but that's a bit much even for you guys. Happy constitution.
rory_20_uk
12-13-2010, 13:39
So did Swedens.
With all the important muslims condemning acts like this, one wonders why few Muslims seem to care.
A key point.
Why do Muslim nutters protesters seem to resort to violence compared to others? Tamils haven't blown up parts of Europe for our inaction in Sri Lanka for example.
Yes they may well be a minority, but considering the harm that these can do to everyone else they do gain attention that is far greater than their numbers would suggest.
~:smoking:
The nutters are a problem to the moderates first, they are terrified, with good reason there is a lot of hidden misery. If beards come at your door asking why you don't go to the mosque that's really scary, night phonecalls, threatening letters, not very fun.
Louis VI the Fat
12-13-2010, 15:00
'I want YOU to be my second wife, and breed me lots of sons'
http://www.muslima.com/ar/profile/showProfile/ID/984609?searchposition=20&searchtotal=1816
I hope that if anything, this bombing serves as a wake up call. The truth of the matter is that the islamist beast cannot be pacified: the more you give, the more it will take and the more it will demand further down the road. The only way to deal with it is to confront it head on and to do it quickly. Complacency now will lead to much greater problems later.
They're the Borg and you *will* be assimilated if you don't put up a fight.
I hope that if anything, this bombing serves as a wake up call. The truth of the matter is that the islamist beast cannot be pacified: the more you give, the more it will take and the more it will demand further down the road. The only way to deal with it is to confront it head on and to do it quickly. Complacency now will lead to much greater problems later.
They're the Borg and you *will* be assimilated if you don't put up a fight.
Wouldn't get too worked about this one, just an idiot, we will just have to get used to this happening from time to time, like school shootings or suicide by cop, only very few are likely to fry their brains like this. Certainly not the real thing they are somewhat smarter than discussing it on facebook, we found hidden code in jpeg's here, those are the pro's. Nothing to see here move along
HoreTore
12-13-2010, 15:51
who are you arguing with
Noone...?
A key point.
Why do Muslim nutters protesters seem to resort to violence compared to others? Tamils haven't blown up parts of Europe for our inaction in Sri Lanka for example.
Yes they may well be a minority, but considering the harm that these can do to everyone else they do gain attention that is far greater than their numbers would suggest.
~:smoking:
No, but the RAF and various other groups blew up Europe over our failure to see the Marxist light.... And who are the ones setting london on fire over a few pounds?
rory_20_uk
12-13-2010, 15:57
I'm no fan of the Student Protests. They are spoilt children.
If the RAF is in light to WW2, again, I think that is one that the UK should have stayed out of it all, but sadly we didn't have a suitable Quisling.
~:smoking:
They're the Borg and you *will* be assimilated if you don't put up a fight.
No, Socialism is the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
HoreTore
12-13-2010, 16:43
I'm no fan of the Student Protests. They are spoilt children.
If the RAF is in light to WW2, again, I think that is one that the UK should have stayed out of it all, but sadly we didn't have a suitable Quisling.
~:smoking:
No, I'm talking about Rote Armee Fraktion.
You know, our previous terrorists.
If the RAF is in light to WW2, again, I think that is one that the UK should have stayed out of it all, but sadly we didn't have a suitable Quisling.
I think he means the other RAF, I confuse them myself sometimes.
Devastatin Dave
12-13-2010, 17:32
If only the Swedes had never invaded Iraq....
If only the Swedes had never invaded Iraq....
They had reliable info that Saddam was torturing reindeer, what should they have done?
Devastatin Dave
12-13-2010, 22:55
They had reliable info that Saddam was torturing reindeer, what should they have done?
They could have atleast gone to the UN for some more resolutions. Now they have ruined their standing with the entire muslim community. Maybe they can adopt Sharia law in order to show that they are tolerant to the peaceful and misunderstood message of Islam....
Is this the new sarcasm and derogatory comments thread?
I hope so. I never did like Martians, all icky and green.
They could have atleast gone to the UN for some more resolutions. Now they have ruined their standing with the entire muslim community. Maybe they can adopt Sharia law in order to show that they are tolerant to the peaceful and misunderstood message of Islam....
That'd miss the point, no, rather they'd apologise post-mortem to mr. Hussein. And the best way to do that is by adapting a secular state, like his Iraq!
Seamus Fermanagh
12-14-2010, 01:28
That'd miss the point, no, rather they'd apologise post-mortem to mr. Hussein. And the best way to do that is by adapting a secular state, like his Iraq!
Secular state? Good idea. Saddamist Kleptocracy? Not so good.
Yeah, before you know it, they'd try to annex Denmark and China would intervene, only to return ten years later because there were weapons of mass destru -- oh, right.
HoreTore
12-14-2010, 13:55
Yeah, before you know it, they'd try to annex Denmark
That would probably earn them the peace prize....
Ironside
12-14-2010, 19:40
Yeah, before you know it, they'd try to annex Denmark and China would intervene, only to return ten years later because there were weapons of mass destru -- oh, right.
Now, now our good ancient claims are on Finland.
A united Scandivia only needs to be looking 500 years back and changing who the dominant nation was.
Anyway, more on topic: He seems to be the "soul searching into something stupidly radical" type. Came to Sweden from Iraq at age ten 1992, been radicalising and traveling abroad (often in the Middle East) in the last few years.
Now, now our good ancient claims are on Finland.
A united Scandivia only needs to be looking 500 years back and changing who the dominant nation was.
Anyway, more on topic: He seems to be the "soul searching into something stupidly radical" type. Came to Sweden from Iraq at age ten 1992, been radicalising and traveling abroad (often in the Middle East) in the last few years.
And failed miserably because of screaming amateurism it's almost comical, well it is actually pretty comical. Can't believe people are making this so big it's rediculous to do, it's nothing keep your calms (as Swedes did). If this was the worst problem things would be really nice but it's much more dangerous socially speaking intended or not, 'attacks' don't help adressing the real issue: political correctness, Top-down blind faith in a flawed society where everybody is bound to feel lost.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
12-14-2010, 21:38
Hope you guys can keep your calms, Horetore is right on this was a spectacular suicide, nothing more.
Until it happens again.... and again?
EDIT: Both of those pictures were hotlinked. Please host pictures yourself. BG
Until it happens again.... and again?
Those are the pro's, yeah things like (Sweden) this are going to happen again and again. Nothing you can do about it fact of life. If you were a muslim how would you want to go if you want to kill yourself , making it a religious act must be terribly tempting if you want to kill yourself anyway, but it's still suicide.
The Celtic Viking
12-15-2010, 11:55
Such a defeatist attitude. It's like being at war but not bothering to fix any defensive positions because you know you're going to take casualties anyway.
This was not intended to be just a suicide, so it's really dumb to act as if it was just because that's how it turned out. He did not blow himself up because he was tired of life, he did so because islam teaches that the only way to be assured of a place in heaven is to kill and be killed for allah. He was an islamofascist, a jihadist and a would-be-massmurderer. Lets at least be honest about that.
Of course there are lots of things we can do to limit the possibility of another attack, of which two good examples would be to put our mosques under surveillance to see if they are preaching jihad (and to arrest and deport any imam that does), and to actually require people who come here to identify themselves.
rory_20_uk
12-15-2010, 12:09
In the UK he'd been spreading his "extreme" views in a Mosque until he was asked to leave. Did they call the police? No - it's not their job to do that...
I don't think that Mosques (or churches for that matter) should have to be under surveillance, but if the attitude of those in charge is that they won't mention to the authorities those who are spreading extreme views then I see little choice.
In the UK far from having the First Amendment we have Inciting Violence and Inciting Racial Hatred so there are plenty of laws to use if it were thought worth arresting, but in most cases I would have thought monitoring would be the best option.
~:smoking:
Nothing defeatist about it, when the pro's hit it really hurts and this clearly was an amateur. How do you intend to stop school shootings, I don't like it either but I'm not the one with respect. Deal with it, what can you really do about it? Congratulate the multicultists on their superior morality should you meet them in their 100% white neighborhoods.
The multiculti's probably are going to open www.dontyoudoit.com they think that way
he did so because islam teaches that the only way to be assured of a place in heaven is to kill and be killed for allah.
What. The. Hell.
That makes no sense at all. According to Islamic theology, suicides are sent to hell.
rory_20_uk
12-15-2010, 14:39
It's all semantics.
They're not committing suicide - they're dying on Jihad.
~:smoking:
They're not committing suicide - they're dying on Jihad.
That's a matter of debate, and yes, it is semantics. I think that most Islamic theologians would distinguish between blowing yourself up in a crowded area, and dying, sword-in-hand, engaged in hand-to-hand combat.
The Celtic Viking
12-15-2010, 16:37
What. The. Hell.
That makes no sense at all. According to Islamic theology, suicides are sent to hell.
I based that on the Quran. You know, that old book that the muslims consider to be the final and unalterable word of god? Yeah, that one. See Sura 9, verse 111:
"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. "
Emphasis added.
Nothing defeatist about it, when the pro's hit it really hurts and this clearly was an amateur. How do you intend to stop school shootings, I don't like it either but I'm not the one with respect. Deal with it, what can you really do about it?
As I said already, two examples that you can do would be to keep the mosques under surveillance to make sure that they can't be brainwashing the sheep with jihadist ideologies and get a better control (and in our case, any control) over who comes into our country. We can stop with this cultural relativistic nonsense and work to integrate the muslims into our society, and deport those who refuse or can't. We can get some self-respect and get rid of this yoke called "political correctness", etc.
I'm not saying that we can make it 100% sure it never happens again. That would be ridiculous. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to make it harder for them to do so, though.
Ironside
12-15-2010, 16:46
If this was the worst problem things would be really nice but it's much more dangerous socially speaking intended or not, 'attacks' don't help adressing the real issue: political correctness, Top-down blind faith in a flawed society where everybody is bound to feel lost.
Not really, you see simular behavior in the local right- and leftwing extremists, or religious "reborns". The suecide bomber is somewhat unique though.
It's a serious small scale problem, but not a huge issue. 0,3% of the terrorist actions in Europe (2006-2009) was related to Islam. But they do attempt to make it big when they try.
It's prett clear what the Qu'ran says some just mentally block it because multiculture is a religion as well. But things like things like this distract from the real villains like Ramadan and that Rouf guy
"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. "
Being slain in battle is not the same as suicide. I'm not interested in a theological debate. That verse is stupid, hell, if you ask me, the entire Qur'an is basically pretty stupid, but I'm not interested in debating the origins of the Qur'an or where what verse came from, what it means and how it should be interpreted. That's something for the theologians. And if you ask me, I think it's better if the whole Sunni world would get back the old Mu'tazilite position that the Qur'an is not "the final and unalterable word of god".
EDIT: What irks me about your post is the fact that you said that "according to Islam" the only way for Muslims to get into heaven is through slaying and being slain. And that's...not really true.
rory_20_uk
12-15-2010, 18:25
I'm a pragmatist. The fact is this document causes a small but significant minority to kill themselves and others. The question is how to stop them doing this within the UK. Whether by alterations to education, surveillance, deportation or a combination of all three is where I see the most productive debate taking place.
~:smoking:
I'm a pragmatist. The fact is this document causes a small but significant minority to kill themselves and others. The question is how to stop them doing this within the UK. Whether by alterations to education, surveillance, deportation or a combination of all three is where I see the most productive debate taking place.
I concur. I don't think that deportation would be a good way to do it. They'd come back (illegally, if needed) and then blow themselves up.
The Celtic Viking
12-15-2010, 20:33
Being slain in battle is not the same as suicide.
Look, if you want to debate whether that verse covers suicide bombing, you will have to do that with the jihadists. They clearly think it does.
And if you ask me, I think it's better if the whole Sunni world would get back the old Mu'tazilite position that the Qur'an is not "the final and unalterable word of god".
So do I, but that is not very likely to happen, and the world is as it is.
EDIT: What irks me about your post is the fact that you said that "according to Islam" the only way for Muslims to get into heaven is through slaying and being slain. And that's...not really true.
Then perhaps I can quell that irk and inform you that you misunderstood my post. I did not say that muslims must do it to get into heaven. However, whenever the Quran talks about getting into heaven, it makes it clear that it is a gift, not a reward: you cannot earn it, no matter how good you are (see Surah 28:67). It does make one exception though, and that is as in the above quoted Sura 9:111. That is, according to the Quran, the only way to be guaranteed a place in heaven - and a special place at that - is by "killing and being killed for Allah". That's what I was saying.
Look, if you want to debate whether that verse covers suicide bombing, you will have to do that with the jihadists. They clearly think it does.
Yeah, but they are stupid. We both know that. Good point, though.
So do I, but that is not very likely to happen, and the world is as it is.
Eh, I'm not so sure. It's recently been proposed again in some points (most famously by 'Ali Abdel Raziq), and while it's still not any good right now, perhaps opinions will change. The Wahhabist movement is no older than 200 years, maybe it'll die out as just another unsuccessful offspring.
Then perhaps I can quell that irk and inform you that you misunderstood my post. I did not say that muslims must do it to get into heaven. However, whenever the Quran talks about getting into heaven, it makes it clear that it is a gift, not a reward: you cannot earn it. It does make one exception though, and that is in the above quoted Sura 9:111. That is, according to the Quran, the only way to be guaranteed a place in heaven - and a special place at that - is by "killing and being killed for Allah". That's what I was saying.
That doesn't really make any sense, and I think if you ask two imams on who gets into heaven, you'll get three different answers. Like in the other Abrahamic Religions, it's either hell or heaven. Where do you go if not to hell, nor heaven?
Tellos Athenaios
12-15-2010, 23:48
Purgatory as any good Catholic would say. You just disappear if you're an atheist though.
Purgatory as any good Catholic would say. You just disappear if you're an atheist though.
I don't think that the concept of Purgatory exists in Islam. The concept of an impermanent hell does exist, and the only theological argument I can think of, is that people just remain in their coffins until Judgement Day.
The Celtic Viking
12-16-2010, 00:55
That doesn't really make any sense, and I think if you ask two imams on who gets into heaven, you'll get three different answers. Like in the other Abrahamic Religions, it's either hell or heaven. Where do you go if not to hell, nor heaven?
I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.
If you want this substantiated, look to what Muhammed is supposed to have said:
"No good works of yours can ever secure heaven for you, nor can they save you from hell -- not even me, without the grace of God."
Surahs from the Quran, like 9:111 quoted above, make the exception for martyrdom.
I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.
This debate will end up in something concerning interpretation, as is often the case with theology. I know of imams that say that polytheists will get into paradise if they have lived a good life. I know of imams that say that secular muslims will end up in hell for all eternity.
In any case, this is pointless, really.
HoreTore
12-16-2010, 14:58
Some people just refuse to accept that there are other inteerpretations than OBL's.
Muslims are just as capable of emphasizing different things in the quran as christians are with the bible. There will be muslims who emphasize violence, and there will be muslims who emphasize peace, and they can both find support for their position in the quran. Just like both feminists and those who believe women belong in the kitchen can find support for their position in the bible. Or the quran for that matter.
I know christians who say that their god is opposed to any and all violence. And I was in the army with a christian who refered to himself as a holy warrior.
Some people refuse to accept that everybody but a few idiots know that
HoreTore
12-16-2010, 15:29
Frags just made a post without referring to "the leftist church"!!
Anybody got the cake and fireworks to celebrate?
Frags just made a post without referring to "the leftist church"!!
No need, it's there for everyone to see
rory_20_uk
12-16-2010, 17:22
Some people just refuse to accept that there are other inteerpretations than OBL's.
Muslims are just as capable of emphasizing different things in the quran as christians are with the bible. There will be muslims who emphasize violence, and there will be muslims who emphasize peace, and they can both find support for their position in the quran. Just like both feminists and those who believe women belong in the kitchen can find support for their position in the bible. Or the quran for that matter.
I know christians who say that their god is opposed to any and all violence. And I was in the army with a christian who refered to himself as a holy warrior.
As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.
It's what they do, not why they do it.
~:smoking:
HoreTore
12-16-2010, 23:00
As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.
It's what they do, not why they do it.
~:smoking:
How was that related to what I was talking about?
Louis VI the Fat
12-17-2010, 03:53
As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.
It's what they do, not why they do it.
~:smoking:Yes.
I find that I have never in the very slightest been at all interested in which Koranic verse or whose prophet says what that legitimises which violent act, or not.
Why should I care? I care about it not at all more than I do whether a street mugger wants to steal my wallet for flashy sneakers or new gold teeth.
I don't care what you've read in your fantasy books, whether Sauron has told you I'm an evil hobbit or whether *certain man with an uncommon marital choice* promised you dozens of virgins. It's all fine with me, just don't involve me, for example, by blowimg me up.
The Celtic Viking
12-17-2010, 16:27
Well, besides enabling us to do something about it, the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread, which leftists so eagerly swallow. They are not attacking us for anything that we have done or anything that we are doing: they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so. We need to be very clear on the fact that we have every right to fight them, and that continuing this road of appeasement will not make them stop. It will only embolden them to make more and more demands, until we've been completely stripped of our liberties and are forced to live our whole lives by their instructions.
The irony being the fact that what The Celtic Viking just posted could've been said by a member of al-Qaeda. It's interesting to see how al-Zarqawi's perception and TCV's perception of Islam are exactly the same.
The Celtic Viking
12-17-2010, 18:30
The irony being the fact that what The Celtic Viking just posted could've been said by a member of al-Qaeda. It's interesting to see how al-Zarqawi's perception and TCV's perception of Islam are exactly the same.
No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.
As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invented a religion right here and now that called for violence and massmurder, and I then commited violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?
No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.
Swap a couple of words around and you have their basic message.
As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invent a religion right here and right now that calls for violence and massmurder, and I then commit violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?
I don't think Islam or any religion is inherently violent. Neither the Qur'an nor Islamic history argue that Islam is a violent religion, as we've seen that notable Islamic scholars, even from right after Muhammad's death have re-interpreted the Qur'an to say something else. The Sabians of Iraq? Not necessarily protected under Islamic law, but they managed to interpret several scriptures to say they were. The status of Buddhists and Hindus? They largely lived as dhimmis and were not regarded as kafirun by the Muslim conquerors.
the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread
Is this a reference to the Shi'ite concept of taqiyyah? Or is it just a general attack in the direction of Muslims that spread lies?
they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so.
Oh yeah? Then where are the historical mass murders? I don't see any Muslims barging my door down now to kill me. Are they barging your door in?
You're pretending, or it looks like you are, at least, that true Muslims are obliged to kill non-Muslims all the time, everywhere without ceasing. And thus, Muslims that are not doing that are Muslims-lite. I'm inclined to believe the opposite, that the ones who call for the mass-murder of non-Muslims are the Muslims-lite. You'll see that institutions like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were founded by and still have a core of people with no background in Islamic theology. Sayyid Qutb? A school teacher. Osama bin Laden? Trained as an engineer in Switzerland. Al-Zarqawi? An alcoholic thug with very little schooling at all.
And let's not forget that terrorist groups have killed more Muslims than other people. Some of them even call for the death of secular Muslims. Y'know, the same secular Muslims you don't trust either, apparently.
It's what they do, not why they do it.
~:smoking:
Exactly. A religion is only as good as its followers.
Exactly. A religion is only as good as its followers.
But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.
But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.
Exactly. We need to differentiate.
Devastatin Dave
12-18-2010, 04:11
There is nothing that makes my nipples harder than watching the "tolerant" do the most amazing display of word definition gymnastics when trying to protect their pet religion of Islam. You would think George Bush was clubbing a baby seal with the jaw bone of an endangered white rino while doing a slash/burn of 10,000 acres of rainforest in order to build a coal plant for the production of coal to use to power oil rigs from the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any utterance of the teachings of good old peaceful Islam...
Proofs in the circumcised vagina as they say...
HoreTore
12-18-2010, 07:49
Oh yes, female circumcision, the african practice performed by members of a dozen religions.
There is nothing that makes my nipples harder than watching the "tolerant" do the most amazing display of word definition gymnastics when trying to protect their pet religion of Islam. You would think George Bush was clubbing a baby seal with the jaw bone of an endangered white rino while doing a slash/burn of 10,000 acres of rainforest in order to build a coal plant for the production of coal to use to power oil rigs from the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any utterance of the teachings of good old peaceful Islam...
Proofs in the circumcised vagina as they say...
People who say the Islam isn't violent can't read, but fact remains that only a tiny percentage of western muslims are violent. They may aprove violence when you ask them, Qu'ran says, but they aren't violent themselves. We don't have the balls to do what needs to be done, treating the real radicals like foreign spies in wartime, we are at war with radical Islam after all
Yes, and the very last thing we need to do is pretend that all Muslims are a potential threat, alienating those Muslims who are opposed to the radicals. After all, as you said, it's their battle.
The Celtic Viking
12-22-2010, 15:10
Swap a couple of words around and you have their basic message.
Uh, no. If you think they could, without lying their teeth out, then I have no idea what world you're living in. Seriously.
I don't think Islam or any religion is inherently violent.
Have you read the Quran? The Hadith? Any of the quotes I gave you? No?
Neither the Qur'an nor Islamic history argue that Islam is a violent religion
You didn't, and you haven't. You're even willing to rewrite history to keep your little delusion.
Not necessarily protected under Islamic law, but they managed to interpret several scriptures to say they were. The status of Buddhists and Hindus? They largely lived as dhimmis and were not regarded as kafirun by the Muslim conquerors.
And I suppose you've bought into this lie that the life of a dhimmi is, was or will ever be the same as tolerance? Or respect? It wasn't. It's why Christians are referred to as "street sweepers" in muslim countries, because dhimmis are relegated to that kind of demeaning work. The point is that they have to not just be subdued, but constantly feel themselves to be like that as well.
Is this a reference to the Shi'ite concept of taqiyyah? Or is it just a general attack in the direction of Muslims that spread lies?
Taqiyya isn't just a shiite doctrine, it's in sunni islam as well. It's based on Muhammed himself, when he told an assassin that he had the right to lie if he had to do it in order to murder his target (a jew who was saying bad things about islam).
Oh yeah?
Yeah.
Then where are the historical mass murders? I don't see any Muslims barging my door down now to kill me. Are they barging your door in?
...
Wow. Just... wow. Perhaps you'd like to read the story that this very thread is about?
I mean... wow. You can't be this... wow.
You're pretending, or it looks like you are, at least, that true Muslims are obliged to kill non-Muslims all the time, everywhere without ceasing.
Sigh. I'm getting the feeling that you're just trolling me now. Not all jihadis are active in killing people all the time. You are strawmanning me, because you know very well that you have no real argument.
And thus, Muslims that are not doing that are Muslims-lite. I'm inclined to believe the opposite, that the ones who call for the mass-murder of non-Muslims are the Muslims-lite.
There's plenty of passages that supports my view in the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence. You, on the other hand, have nothing to point to. You have no basis for that belief. We'd all like the world to be a pink, perfect little land where everyone could get along and sing kumbaya, but that's not the reality that we live in. It's dangerous not to acknowledge that.
You'll see that institutions like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were founded by and still have a core of people with no background in Islamic theology. Sayyid Qutb? A school teacher. Osama bin Laden? Trained as an engineer in Switzerland. Al-Zarqawi? An alcoholic thug with very little schooling at all.
And yet, they have perfect support from the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence, and nothing that disagrees with them. But never mind that! They must be wrong! Why? Because I believe so!
And let's not forget that terrorist groups have killed more Muslims than other people.
So what? Of course there's infighting in islam. I know this. This isn't exactly an argument for why islam is a peaceful religion.
Some of them even call for the death of secular Muslims. Y'know, the same secular Muslims you don't trust either, apparently.
Where were these secular muslims during the whole Danish cartoons drama? We had muslims murdering people in racist attacks, we had muslims demonstrating against it in countries that generally don't allow demonstrations, we had burning of embassies and condemnations of free speech all over. We had "moderate" muslims saying that this was the cartoonists fault. I heard no muslim stand up for secularism or free speech. Why is this, do you think?
al Roumi
12-22-2010, 15:57
Where were these secular muslims during the whole Danish cartoons drama? We had muslims murdering people in racist attacks, we had muslims demonstrating against it in countries that generally don't allow demonstrations, we had burning of embassies and condemnations of free speech all over. We had "moderate" muslims saying that this was the cartoonists fault. I heard no muslim stand up for secularism or free speech. Why is this, do you think?
There are "moderate" muslims, they just don't get the airtime. What gets noticed and put on the media is rabid global Jihadi bollox and rabid anti muslim bollox.
They don't feel they should excuse for what they didn't do, isn't it a bit unfair to ask them to apologise for what they didn't do? It isn't an organised religion like teh catholics they don't feel like having to answer to anything when it concerns such acts. Fine with that. I despise the Islam untill it's very molecular structure but asking the ordinary muslim to reject terrorism is no different from asking a normal catholic to publicaly condemn child-rape, why should he
al Roumi
12-22-2010, 16:32
Good point Frags. You also got a christian analogy in there for good measure, we'll make a dhimmi of you yet!
The Celtic Viking: Chill the :daisy: out man, I'm not calling for your death or anything. Relax, seriously.
Uh, no. If you think they could, without lying their teeth out, then I have no idea what world you're living in. Seriously.
Eh, yes, I do. My point was that your perception of Islam and al-Zarqawi's or Osama Bin Laden's perception of Islam are virtually the same. You regard it as a violent religion, they regard it as a violent religion.
Have you read the Quran? The Hadith? Any of the quotes I gave you? No?
I have read a lot of the Qur'an, parts of ahadith, and those quotes, too.
You didn't, and you haven't. You're even willing to rewrite history to keep your little delusion.
Getting ahead of facts. I analyse Islamic political theory and history. "My little delusion" is founded mainly on research conducted by Hugh Kennedy (Muhammad and the Age of the Caliphates, The History of Muslim Spain and Portugal) and Antony Black (The History of Islamic Political Thought).
And I suppose you've bought into this lie that the life of a dhimmi is, was or will ever be the same as tolerance? Or respect? It wasn't. It's why Christians are referred to as "street sweepers" in muslim countries, because dhimmis are relegated to that kind of demeaning work. The point is that they have to not just be subdued, but constantly feel themselves to be like that as well.
Citation required.
I was arguing about the popularity and the historical frequence of Quranic interpretation.
Taqiyya isn't just a shiite doctrine, it's in sunni islam as well. It's based on Muhammed himself, when he told an assassin that he had the right to lie if he had to do it in order to murder his target (a jew who was saying bad things about islam).
Taqiyya, while present in both Shi'ite and Sunnite doctrine, as you rightly pointed out, is explained in more detail in Shi'a Islam than in Sunni Islam. I'm not aware of the exact historical precedent from which it originated, but I'm willing to bet that this event is not so much an example as it is an exception. Taqiyya has largely been interpretated as "lying to save your life", not "lying to be able to kill someone at a later point that is insulting you". Of course, al-Zarqawi would disagree with me.
Yeah.
Okay.
...
Wow. Just... wow. Perhaps you'd like to read the story that this very thread is about?
I mean... wow. You can't be this... wow.
Yes.
Sigh. I'm getting the feeling that you're just trolling me now. Not all jihadis are active in killing people all the time. You are strawmanning me, because you know very well that you have no real argument.
I don't feel obliged to respond to this at all.
There's plenty of passages that supports my view in the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence. You, on the other hand, have nothing to point to. You have no basis for that belief. We'd all like the world to be a pink, perfect little land where everyone could get along and sing kumbaya, but that's not the reality that we live in. It's dangerous not to acknowledge that.
Yes, and there are also verses in the Qur'an that support my point of view. So what? We can spend this entire time throwing Qur'anic verses at eachother and arguing on how a verse should be interpreted and in what context.
I don't disagree with the fact that there are some very problematic things with Islamic culture as it is now, but we should clearly seperate the Qur'an, historical events and the present situation. They are naturally intertwined, but you can't point out the present situation, claiming it is absolutely and completely based on the Qur'an and completely ignoring all historical events.
And yet, they have perfect support from the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence, and nothing that disagrees with them. But never mind that! They must be wrong! Why? Because I believe so!
Okay, I don't really know what you're trying to say with that last part, but eh. In any case, no, they have perfect support from their interpretation of the Islamic texts. Interpretation. You ever heard of Shaykh Ali Abdel Raziq?
So what? Of course there's infighting in islam. I know this. This isn't exactly an argument for why islam is a peaceful religion.
Missing the point, it's not about infighting, they're not killing Muslims they believe to be non-Muslims, they're killing other Muslims. Why? I don't really know. To attract attention.
Where were these secular muslims during the whole Danish cartoons drama? We had muslims murdering people in racist attacks, we had muslims demonstrating against it in countries that generally don't allow demonstrations, we had burning of embassies and condemnations of free speech all over. We had "moderate" muslims saying that this was the cartoonists fault. I heard no muslim stand up for secularism or free speech. Why is this, do you think?
Yes, and we had moderate Muslims condemning the threats directed to the employees of Jyllands-Posten:
However, the Organization of the Islamic Conference has denounced calls for the death of the Danish cartoonists. OIC's Secretary General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu stated in a press release:
The Secretary General appeals to the Muslims to stay calm and peaceful in the wake of sacrilegious depiction of Prophet Muhammad which has deeply hurt their feelings. He has stated that Islam being the religion of tolerance, mercy and peace teaches them to defend their faith through democratic and legal means.
This took me less than a minute to find on Wikipedia.
As a final note, as most here probably know, I come from a partially Islamic family. My father is one of the supporters of the same Ali Abdel Raziq I mentioned earlier (if you don't know who he is, he spoke out against the concept of the Caliphate and the Islamic state, arguing in favour of laïcité). I have noticed visible contrasts between the Islam* I experienced at home, the Islam I experienced when reading or watching the news, and the Islam I analysed historically.
I'm not willing to believe, and I have very little reason to believe, that all Muslims are potential suicide bombers. I might be misguided due to my family's influence, but I don't really think so. I wasn't forcefed Islam from birth. I wasn't circumcised at age seven. I have never had to recite the shahada. I chose to search out the roots of Islam, not from a theological point of view (it just doesn't appeal to me), but from a historical point of view, and I have found that while there have been surges and changes in the perception of Islam (from Al-Ghazali's refutation of the Philosophers to Ibn-Taymiyya's interpretation of Jihad, to the writings of Ibn-Khaldun and finally the writings of the Iranian ayatollahs, al-Afghani ("I went to the West, and saw Islam, but no Muslims, and I went to the East, where I found Muslims, but saw no Islam"), and Ali Abdel Raziq, I am very optimistic for the future of Islam. But then, I've always been a fairly optimistic person.
gaelic cowboy
12-22-2010, 21:45
I'm not willing to believe, and I have very little reason to believe, that all Muslims are potential suicide bombers. I might be misguided due to my family's influence, but I don't really think so. I wasn't forcefed Islam from birth. I wasn't circumcised at age seven. I have never had to recite the shahada. I chose to search out the roots of Islam, not from a theological point of view (it just doesn't appeal to me), but from a historical point of view, and I have found that while there have been surges and changes in the perception of Islam (from Al-Ghazali's refutation of the Philosophers to Ibn-Taymiyya's interpretation of Jihad, to the writings of Ibn-Khaldun and finally the writings of the Iranian ayatollahs, al-Afghani ("I went to the West, and saw Islam, but no Muslims, and I went to the East, where I found Muslims, but saw no Islam"), and Ali Abdel Raziq, I am very optimistic for the future of Islam. But then, I've always been a fairly optimistic person.
If only Sayyid Qutb thought as you and these gentlemen did then the world might be a bit differ today.
If you ask me he started the whole mess we have today where the majority of islamic terrorism is against other muslims.
It's very recent, yeah started with him. The Muslim Brotherhood, insanily dangerous folks
Like Hax I'm optimistic for teh muslims, but only because Islam is pure fail, hardly more. If not now it's soon. Iran is going to be the epicentre of it's modernisation nobody is going to hold a force of nature forever
gaelic cowboy
12-22-2010, 22:17
It's very recent, yeah started with him. The Muslim Brotherhood, insanily dangerous folks
There mad in the head if you ask me
If only Sayyid Qutb thought as you and these gentlemen did then the world might be a bit differ today.
If you ask me he started the whole mess we have today where the majority of islamic terrorism is against other muslims.
Well, it's kinda sad, because he never actually called for violent acts. It's so bitter, because although they may know the Qur'an by heart, have the ahadith summarised in their heads and argue amongst themselves how long your beard should be before you can cut it off, doesn't mean they actually comprehend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Room) its message. When I talk to Muslims nowadays (especially those living in the US), they say that the literalists annoy them the most. They don't think they should take everything in the Qur'an as direct instructions on what you have to do in this life. What makes it even worse is that there have been serious attempts at reform, especially out of Egypt, but they've largely been ignored or overlooked.
gaelic cowboy
12-22-2010, 23:22
Well, it's kinda sad, because he never actually called for violent acts. It's so bitter, because although they may know the Qur'an by heart, have the ahadith summarised in their heads and argue amongst themselves how long your beard should be before you can cut it off, doesn't mean they actually comprehend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Room) its message. When I talk to Muslims nowadays (especially those living in the US), they say that the literalists annoy them the most. They don't think they should take everything in the Qur'an as direct instructions on what you have to do in this life. What makes it even worse is that there have been serious attempts at reform, especially out of Egypt, but they've largely been ignored or overlooked.
Anyone who spreads the idea of Takfir like he did needs to think a bit more carefully in my view.
It has an explosive potential in the wrong hands literally and figuratively
Well, it's kinda sad, because he never actually called for violent acts. It's so bitter, because although they may know the Qur'an by heart, have the ahadith summarised in their heads and argue amongst themselves how long your beard should be before you can cut it off, doesn't mean they actually comprehend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Room) its message. When I talk to Muslims nowadays (especially those living in the US), they say that the literalists annoy them the most. They don't think they should take everything in the Qur'an as direct instructions on what you have to do in this life. What makes it even worse is that there have been serious attempts at reform, especially out of Egypt, but they've largely been ignored or overlooked.
It is the same with Christian fundamentalism. It is probably to do with unable to find 'god' and frightened by this, they run in the opposite direction, back to the roots, going literal, in hopes that by doing so, they can find 'god'.
gaelic cowboy
12-22-2010, 23:37
It is the same with Christian fundamentalism. It is probably to do with unable to find 'god' and frightened by this, they run in the opposite direction, back to the roots, going literal, in hopes that by doing so, they can find 'god'.
I have always had a sneaky suspision it is to do with the fact that Islam is the only institution left to turn too, Arab Nationalism is discredited since Nasser plus Communism and Fascism are gone and democracy is to be suspected because it is the import of a foreigner enemy.
Plus does anyone else think the professional background of these AQ types rings a few bells, they tend to be science or engineering types not humanities etc.
rory_20_uk
12-23-2010, 10:41
I have always had a sneaky suspision it is to do with the fact that Islam is the only institution left to turn too, Arab Nationalism is discredited since Nasser plus Communism and Fascism are gone and democracy is to be suspected because it is the import of a foreigner enemy.
Plus does anyone else think the professional background of these AQ types rings a few bells, they tend to be science or engineering types not humanities etc.
Scientists or Engineers are able to think and act. Artists and those in the humanities are better at mindless demonstration as they don't have the discipline / knowledge mix to do anything more "constructive".
~:smoking:
al Roumi
12-23-2010, 13:58
I have always had a sneaky suspision it is to do with the fact that Islam is the only institution left to turn too, Arab Nationalism is discredited since Nasser plus Communism and Fascism are gone and democracy is to be suspected because it is the import of a foreigner enemy.
Plus does anyone else think the professional background of these AQ types rings a few bells, they tend to be science or engineering types not humanities etc.
It is exactly this. At least the foremeost is behind the (last 50 years) wave of "islamisation" in Muslim countries and societies. Political Islam and a return to "pure Muslim values" (i.e. going back to the glory days of ~ 6-750AD) are very much a reaction to the disapointment, dissatisfaction and sense of defeat felt by Muslim societies. Look at Egypt, everything has been tried there int he last 100 years -monarchy, dictatorship, democracy, nationalism, socialism etc etc. Egypt remains a country which has yet to live up to its population's expectations in even the most basic of ways.
Among Muslims in the west (who can be somewhat dislocated from national and other cultural ties), it's about looking for an identity and finding a pan Islamic one.
On your last point, I think there is definitley something in the absolute world an engineer/scientist sees, and how this leaves them unable or unwilling to accept more complex shades of grey.
That many of the leaders of terrorist groups (AQ in particular) are middle class -if not priveleged, is also revelatory (or not) as the lower middle class traditionaly launch assualts on establishment because they are those who feel the ceiling to their ambition more acutely than working or more bourgeois classes.
I have always had a sneaky suspision it is to do with the fact that Islam is the only institution left to turn too, Arab Nationalism is discredited since Nasser plus Communism and Fascism are gone and democracy is to be suspected because it is the import of a foreigner enemy.
Plus does anyone else think the professional background of these AQ types rings a few bells, they tend to be science or engineering types not humanities etc.
Not just you it's a common theory, the Islam is hauled into the 21th century and can't always keep up with such radical change. Extremists are losing and losing badly, there really is no turning back.
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