View Full Version : Shrinking Detroit
HoreTore
12-18-2010, 15:41
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/detroit-shrinking?CMP=twt_fd
America has millions of homeless people. Detroit has thousands of empty houses.
Instead of what I consider an obvious answer to both problems, the city of Detroit plans to demolish the homes....
Could someone please explain how this is anything but insanity?
In America, -1+1=2.
rory_20_uk
12-18-2010, 15:57
If the "logic" is the same as the UK
You can't force people to leave where they are as this would damage social cohesion.
It would discriminate against the homeless people forcing them to live in a deprived area.
More prosaically, if you give them the houses, who is going to pay for the upkeep? In the UK that of course is the state. By demolishing them you are reducing future outgoings with a one off cost.
~:smoking:
Not even the homeless want to live in Detroit.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/detroit-shrinking?CMP=twt_fd
America has millions of homeless people. Detroit has thousands of empty houses.
Instead of what I consider an obvious answer to both problems, the city of Detroit plans to demolish the homes....
Could someone please explain how this is anything but insanity?
In America, -1+1=2.
You don't understand how politics work in Detroit. Yes, it is insanity.
Ach, just sell it back to the French for a hundred dollars. They can deal with that kinda stuff!
HoreTore
12-18-2010, 16:45
You don't understand how politics work in Detroit. Yes, it is insanity.
The same happens in other places in the US.
The same happens in Ireland.
The same happens in the rest of Europe too. Heck, it happens here as well! I think it's called "capitalism" or something...
rory_20_uk
12-18-2010, 16:50
OK, so they give the homeless the houses. Then what? Who looks after the houses?
What is your solution to the monetary aspect of this? So far you appear to be solving hunger by giving everyone a meal.
~:smoking:
HoreTore
12-18-2010, 16:58
OK, so they give the homeless the houses. Then what? Who looks after the houses?
What is your solution to the monetary aspect of this? So far you appear to be solving hunger by giving everyone a meal.
~:smoking:
People aren't capable of looking after a house?
Anyway, it'll be a lot better to let the houses fall into ruin with someone living inside, than letting them fall in ruin while people are living in the front yard.
Louis VI the Fat
12-18-2010, 17:11
Silly Gruaniad. They are too PC to say just why Detroit is sinking into poverty and why nobody wants to move in there.
Ach, just sell it back to the French for a hundred dollars. They can deal with that kinda stuff!No thanks.
Lille, Marseille and Paris outside the periphery is quite enough. One can only afford so many third world metropoles.
Detroit is the great scare of Europe. America can abandon Detroit. And it can abandon New Orleans. But one can not abandon Paris.
The solution seems to be to physically concentrate wealth and privilege within parts of the European cities, and raise the drawbridge. I predict the return of the city wall.
I'm quite surprised that this year's Devils Night didn't already solve this problem. :inquisitive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g09GtnWdBjc
rory_20_uk
12-18-2010, 17:53
People aren't capable of looking after a house?
Anyway, it'll be a lot better to let the houses fall into ruin with someone living inside, than letting them fall in ruin while people are living in the front yard.
No they're not. There are vast number of council houses attesting to this fact.
If people wanted to, they could have squatted in these houses. As they haven't they either have no drive or no interest in doing so.
~:smoking:
Devastatin Dave
12-18-2010, 21:36
LOL... Detroit? Detroit a victim of capitalism? Even funnier. Nope Detroit is a victim of democrat politics as its worse and the population is too stupid to put anyone else in power. You couldn't put the homeless up there because it would cost too much to protect them from the "residents" that are already there sucking on the governments teet. Horetore, you should move up there and show these people the errors of their ways.
Devastatin Dave
12-18-2010, 21:39
Silly Gruaniad. They are too PC to say just why Detroit is sinking into poverty and why nobody wants to move in there.
.
I'm not... blacks and democrats make a deadly mix for any city's infrastructure and treasury. Cold hard truth.
rory_20_uk
12-18-2010, 21:48
They're not alone. California is merely rich enough to avoid this fate for the time being by the thought of the state going belly up being too terrible for anyone to contemplate it.
It's not the race, it's any group that feels they're better off with handouts than trying. Traditionally Democrats give more handouts so they'll be voted in.
~:smoking:
Crazed Rabbit
12-18-2010, 22:06
In all seriousness I don't think many people, even homeless people who could get a free house, would want to move to Detroit. The reason the city wants to demolish homes is because it can't pay for services - water, fire and police to largely unpopulated areas. Large amounts of homeless people shipped in, who would need services but wouldn't contribute much in the way of taxes, would just make things worse. Also, vacant homes serve as shelter for criminal activity.
Doesn't help that the last mayor was extremely corrupt. (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/1218/Former-Detroit-mayor-Kwame-Kilpatrick-faces-major-corruption-charges)
CR
Devastatin Dave
12-18-2010, 22:23
Detroit is a loss cause, much like most homeless people in the US. Although Horetore's idea is noble and has good intentions, it would only make the situation worse. Our country's homeless are homeless mainly by their own bad decisions and choices they made in their lives. Cities like Detroit, East St Louis, New Orleans, Newark, Oakland, etc, are in the condition they are in due to bad choices in the polling booths. You can only tax the successful so much before they leave and you lose that revenue.
PanzerJaeger
12-18-2010, 22:36
I'm not... blacks and democrats make a deadly mix for any city's infrastructure and treasury. Cold hard truth.
Very true. Memphis is only slightly better off.
Beautiful cities across America have been ravaged by black leadership. It is a vicious cycle. As the black leadership starts to show poor judgment, those with the resources, mostly whites, escape, leaving only poor working class blacks who habitually vote in more black leadership.
Crazed Rabbit
12-19-2010, 01:30
Black mayors aren't any better or worse than white ones.
The bad black mayors are (generally) the ones who get elected by race baiting; making the election about who's going to be on the side of black people.
It's hard to feel sorry for the people of Detroit, though, since they kept on voting in idiots.
CR
Ironside
12-19-2010, 12:33
They're not alone. California is merely rich enough to avoid this fate for the time being by the thought of the state going belly up being too terrible for anyone to contemplate it.
It's not the race, it's any group that feels they're better off with handouts than trying. Traditionally Democrats give more handouts so they'll be voted in.
~:smoking:
Isn't the California issue that they've set up a system that easily stops budget cuts and tax rises? Thus making a balanced budget impossible when its gone unbalanced?
Not even the homeless want to live in Detroit.
heh my brother lived there for a while, I don't think he's going to revisit it very soon.
@Horetore, leftist logic pur sang, you can house them there but there's no work, that is why the houses are empty deleted by SF
1-1=0
The same happens in other places in the US.
The same happens in Ireland.
The same happens in the rest of Europe too. Heck, it happens here as well! I think it's called "capitalism" or something...
Stop talking. You are looking extremely foolish to those who know any shred of truth about the city. This isn't the fault of capitalism. In fact, capitalism is what made this city great during the first half of the 20th century.
I'm not... blacks and democrats make a deadly mix for any city's infrastructure and treasury. Cold hard truth.
Sadly, yes.
Black mayors aren't any better or worse than white ones.
The bad black mayors are (generally) the ones who get elected by race baiting; making the election about who's going to be on the side of black people.
It's hard to feel sorry for the people of Detroit, though, since they kept on voting in idiots.
CR
Correct. The current mayor, Dave Bing, is black and not a bad mayor at all. He's doing his best to attempt to salvage Detroit, but I don't see it improving to the level of most American cities in my lifetime.
If the "logic" is the same as the UK
You can't force people to leave where they are as this would damage social cohesion.
If you are referring to a case you made before, about looking for work out of area, the problem is, the set-up costs are too great. It isn't easy abandon everyone you know, with no money to your name, to go some where strange, with even less money, no house, etc, to get a job. It only works if you are a high flier and already got a job in that area.
rory_20_uk
12-20-2010, 10:02
If you are referring to a case you made before, about looking for work out of area, the problem is, the set-up costs are too great. It isn't easy abandon everyone you know, with no money to your name, to go some where strange, with even less money, no house, etc, to get a job. It only works if you are a high flier and already got a job in that area.
The admin assistant where I work moved for the job. So did her boss. Neither are "high fliers". I'm not really, and I moved too.
Journeymen used to do this sort of thing all the time, so it is possible, but these days any thought of discomfort makes something impossible.
~:smoking:
Seamus Fermanagh
12-21-2010, 05:05
Sadly, most of the buildings slated for demolition in Detroit are likely to be demolished anyway -- the cost of bringing them up to levels where they can get a C.O. is virtually prohibitive. Old physical plant, under-maintained and then unmaintained for years....not gonna work.
Moreover, the non-infrastructure services in Detroit are sketchy. They have only 8 grocery stores within city limits...for 800k people.
Reenk Roink
12-21-2010, 05:41
Only reason to go to Detroit is to go down to the Joe and watch a Wings game (it's funny that the "DETROIT SUCKS" chant that Chicago fans do is applicable to basically all but what they are targeting). The Pistons wisely are in Auburn Hills and the other two teams suck. Like a couple of blocks in downtown are actually decent, but yes, that city is a very sad sight. :shame:
Luckily, most of Detroit's suburbs are very nice. Oakland County is one of the most affluent counties in the country, plus it is the home county of yours truly. :smug:
Only reason to go to Detroit is to go down to the Joe and watch a Wings game (it's funny that the "DETROIT SUCKS" chant that Chicago fans do is applicable to basically all but what they are targeting). The Pistons wisely are in Auburn Hills and the other two teams suck. Like a couple of blocks in downtown are actually decent, but yes, that city is a very sad sight. :shame:
Luckily, most of Detroit's suburbs are very nice. Oakland County is one of the most affluent counties in the country, plus it is the home county of yours truly. :smug:
Pfft you ritzy Oakland County people... make me sick :D.
PanzerJaeger
12-21-2010, 10:04
Check this out. The ruins of Detroit (http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html).
a completely inoffensive name
12-21-2010, 11:41
I would say it was some of what HoreTore said, some of what others have said. Bad leadership (I'm not going to go into the race issue), but then again, companies of all products are trying to shift production to the lowest labor cost region and unionized Detroit probably wasn't the best place.
rory_20_uk
12-21-2010, 11:53
Check this out. The ruins of Detroit (http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html).
Ye Gods, pictures really bring it home. It's so sad to see those majestic buildings falling into disrepair.
~:smoking:
Ye Gods, pictures really bring it home. It's so sad to see those majestic buildings falling into disrepair.
Indeed, you wonder who left them in such disrepair in the first place.
Megas Methuselah
12-22-2010, 06:17
Little bits of America have already went down the drain. Indeed, you wonder what parts of the country are next.
I'll be on the sidelines with my popcorn, yo.
Indeed, you wonder who left them in such disrepair in the first place.
It began with Coleman Young.
It began with Coleman Young.
How? I am sure elected officials are joyriders in the USA, but they are all hamstrung in comparison to European counterparts and America is the land of capitalism. So any businesses which end up going down the drain are their own fault (etc).
Reenk Roink
12-22-2010, 10:19
Pfft you ritzy Oakland County people... make me sick :D.
Man, I just checked, and Oakland county dropped from 4th back in the day to outside of the top 25 now... :sad:
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/09/25/news/local_news/doc4c9d4cba5c067316044502.txt
The auto industry implosion and recession has knocked Oakland County from the list of America’s wealthiest counties.
Oakland County — once considered the fourth wealthiest county in the country — is not even among the 25 richest counties in the nation anymore, according to a Forbes.com survey.
Oakland has ranked itself as the 10th richest county based on per capita income, a different variable from that used by Forbes.com.
Census Bureau data shows the recession has reduced the median household income to $61,907 last year compared with $103,035 in 2000.
Pfft you ritzy Oakland County people... make me sick :D.
I happen to be one of those people as well and no, Horetore's original idea isn't of much value. I understand his motives, however his idea is totally detached from reality simply because he has no clue what he's talking about. No homeless man in his right mind would wanna end up in a former crackhouse in Detroit. They have a beter chance of surviving outdoors on a winter night in Minneapolis than in that rat infested no man's land. I have high hopes for Detroit's new mayor though, he seems to be a no-nonsense business oriented guy. We'll see, he definitely has his work cut out for him and it'll take decades to bring Detroit out of the abyss it's in right now.
How? I am sure elected officials are joyriders in the USA, but they are all hamstrung in comparison to European counterparts and America is the land of capitalism. So any businesses which end up going down the drain are their own fault (etc).
What? Guys come on. You REALLY need to do some background research here if you want to carry on a discussion. Young was mayor for 20 years and caused what is known as white flight by being openly racist and telling white people to get out of his city. Corruption thrived, and no one in their right mind wanted anything to do with Detroit. Hence, it's suberbs grew properous and the city declined into a craphole. This isn't the fault of capitalism, but god awful leadership and a racist mentality. If you wanted to challenge anything in Detroit, you were racist. Dennis Archer (two mayors ago) did his best to try to fix Detroit, but he got fed up and left. Kwame Kilpatrick, who now serving 7-12 years in prison while facing fresh bribery and tax evasion charges, took any gain Archer accomplished, and reversed it.
Man, I just checked, and Oakland county dropped from 4th back in the day to outside of the top 25 now... :sad:
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/09/25/news/local_news/doc4c9d4cba5c067316044502.txt
That's a result of the auto companies going down. There are no more union employees making 100k a year with lifetime medical benefits and pensions. The businesses they supported are also suffering or non existant. Coupled with Detroit and the collapse of the auto companies, Michigan has fallen quite a bit from her former glory.
a completely inoffensive name
12-23-2010, 02:29
According to the new census data, Michigan is going to lose a house seat in Congress because so many have left the state when the jobs went away. In fact, Michigan is the only state to have a net loss in population since 2000.
Devastatin Dave
12-23-2010, 04:23
According to the new census data, Michigan is going to lose a house seat in Congress because so many have left the state when the jobs went away. In fact, Michigan is the only state to have a net loss in population since 2000.
I can't imagine why....
a completely inoffensive name
12-23-2010, 04:25
I can't imagine why....
I just told you, it's because the jobs went away.
Devastatin Dave
12-23-2010, 04:31
I just told you, it's because the jobs went away.
Why did the jobs go away?
a completely inoffensive name
12-23-2010, 04:45
Why did the jobs go away?
You want the answer you are looking for, or the realistic answer?
Devastatin Dave
12-23-2010, 07:14
You want the answer you are looking for, or the realistic answer?
A realistic one would work for me...
a completely inoffensive name
12-23-2010, 10:47
A realistic one would work for me...
Companies left to take advantage of lower labor costs in other countries which was made worse by too little give from the unions and unchecked by the crappy state and local government who didn't provide additional incentives for them to stay.
Vladimir
12-23-2010, 14:21
Companies left to take advantage of lower labor costs in other countries which was made worse by too little give from the unions and unchecked by the crappy state and local government who didn't provide additional incentives for them to stay.
:laugh4:
Devastatin Dave
12-23-2010, 17:11
Companies left to take advantage of lower labor costs in other countries which was made worse by too little give from the unions and unchecked by the crappy state and local government who didn't provide additional incentives for them to stay.
Thanks
a completely inoffensive name
12-23-2010, 21:56
:laugh4:
Good reply. I realize how moronic my post was and indeed it must have been the blacks fault as others have claimed.
Thanks
Np.
Strike For The South
12-23-2010, 22:12
Wait so black leadership kills cities?
SOMEONE TELL ATLANTA
O wait
I hear good things about the Delta City project, maybe OCP can turn Detroit's fortunes around.
Vladimir
12-31-2010, 16:31
Good reply. I realize how moronic my post was and indeed it must have been the blacks fault as others have claimed.
Np.
I just love it when Dave plays with his food. It makes me horny.
I just love it when Dave plays with his food. It makes me horny.
I heard you can both enlist in the American Army together now.
Good reply. I realize how moronic my post was and indeed it must have been the (racist) blacks fault as others have claimed.
I fixed it for you.
a completely inoffensive name
01-01-2011, 00:59
I fixed it for you.
And these racist blacks managed to ruin an entire city all by themselves? It couldn't have been outsourcing at all? It couldn't have been corrupt unions? It couldn't have been the fact that everyone ****** up in someway, nooooooooooooooooooo it was the white hating blacks? Give me a break guys.
And these racist blacks managed to ruin an entire city all by themselves? It couldn't have been outsourcing at all? It couldn't have been corrupt unions? It couldn't have been the fact that everyone ****** up in someway, nooooooooooooooooooo it was the white hating blacks? Give me a break guys.
You aren't getting a break here. Can you explain exactly how outsourcing and corrupt unions effected the city? I'm not talking about the state of Michigan or the auto companies, I'm talking about the city of Detroit. Please, enlighten us.
a completely inoffensive name
01-01-2011, 04:07
You aren't getting a break here. Can you explain exactly how outsourcing and corrupt unions effected the city? I'm not talking about the state of Michigan or the auto companies, I'm talking about the city of Detroit. Please, enlighten us.
"Give me a break" is just a term, not an actual request. I thought that was common knowledge.
And lol, your question inherently makes no sense. The downward economic spiral preceded the downfall of Detroit and Michigan as a whole. The point it fell is because the economic strength of the region was weakened by outsourcing partly due to stubborn unions. This made less jobs available in the region, which created higher unemployment, which slowed the overall economy of the state. The fact that some black politicians made racist statements and policies to whites is only a small part of the problem. The whites simply fled like in other places around the country, to suburbs and segregated themselves from the blacks, but they still went about and did their jobs, got paid and bought stuff. While it has it's bias, watch "Roger & Me" in which he goes over how (in his opinion) GM is responsible for the downfall of Flint. The economic devestation of one region hurts the economic stability of the regions surrounding it because of the inter connectivity of the modern economy.
This the problem with what you are telling me. You are saying, "I am talking about Detroit, here. Detroit's blacks pushed the wealthy whites out and the city died. Tell me how that is wrong." That statement alone isn't wrong, but let's look at the bigger picture. Where are all the wealthy whites in the LA region? They all fled to either Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Holmby Hills and the region around them or they moved out into the massive suburbs that stretch into it's neighboring counties. And even though LA has it's budget problems, it's no Detroit, so what is going on? The fact is that the surrounding suburbs where all the white people are at still drive the economic machine of LA. Unless all the whites were leaving Michigan completely, I don't see how racist blacks completely managed to destroy an entire megacity all by themselves.
EDIT: There is a reason why Michigan was the only state to have shown a population loss in the new census, and it's not because of racist blacks! Racist blacks don't just live in Detroit I can tell you that! It's because of the bad economy and no job prospects.
"Give me a break" is just a term, not an actual request. I thought that was common knowledge.
I'm aware of the meaning :).
And lol, your question inherently makes no sense. The downward economic spiral preceded the downfall of Detroit and Michigan as a whole.
No it didn't. Through most of the 90s and early 2000s the state of Michigan was doing very well. The same cannot be said about the city of Detroit.
The point it fell is because the economic strength of the region was weakened by outsourcing partly due to stubborn unions. This made less jobs available in the region, which created higher unemployment, which slowed the overall economy of the state.
No.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__V1GJlBadyE/SwLEOOV1_FI/AAAAAAAAA7s/-GMsRpZQvkg/s1600/Detroit+Unemployment+Rate+Chart.jpg
The fact that some black politicians made racist statements and policies to whites is only a small part of the problem. The whites simply fled like in other places around the country, to suburbs and segregated themselves from the blacks, but they still went about and did their jobs, got paid and bought stuff.
I don't understand. You admit to what I was basically saying and say it's only a small part of the problem? Detroit had a population of around 2 million at it's peak. That population shrunk as business and people fled not to the rest of the country, but to the suburbs of Michigan. This doesn't sound very small to me.
While it has it's bias, watch "Roger & Me" in which he goes over how (in his opinion) GM is responsible for the downfall of Flint. The economic devestation of one region hurts the economic stability of the regions surrounding it because of the inter connectivity of the modern economy.
I've seen the movie. That sounds like a good talking point. Do you have any evidence that when GM moved out of Flint Detroit was negatively effected as a direct result?
This the problem with what you are telling me. You are saying, "I am talking about Detroit, here. Detroit's blacks pushed the wealthy whites out and the city died. Tell me how that is wrong." That statement alone isn't wrong,
Glad we are in agreement.
but let's look at the bigger picture. Where are all the wealthy whites in the LA region? They all fled to either Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Holmby Hills and the region around them or they moved out into the massive suburbs that stretch into it's neighboring counties. And even though LA has it's budget problems, it's no Detroit, so what is going on? The fact is that the surrounding suburbs where all the white people are at still drive the economic machine of LA. Unless all the whites were leaving Michigan completely, I don't see how racist blacks completely managed to destroy an entire megacity all by themselves.
I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say here. What's so hard to understand about a wealth and business flight? The suburbs boomed while the city fell apart.
EDIT: There is a reason why Michigan was the only state to have shown a population loss in the new census, and it's not because of racist blacks! Racist blacks don't just live in Detroit I can tell you that! It's because of the bad economy and no job prospects.
It's because of the current auto mess. I'm not denying is why the state of Michigan lost population... but this isn't what the discussion is about. This population loss was not from the city, but from suburbs. The decline of Detroit happened long before 2000.
Like I've said before, you seem to confusing to what is happening to the state of Michigan, to what is happening to Detroit. Not much goes on in the downtown anymore... not much has gone on there for decades.
Megas Methuselah
01-01-2011, 05:02
Lol. You people brought it on yourselves. It makes me giddy to witness all of you reaping exactly what you have sown. :laugh4:
Lol. You people brought it on yourselves. It makes me giddy to witness all of you reaping exactly what you have sown. :laugh4:
...?
Yoyoma1910
01-01-2011, 05:42
It's just normalizing after a ridiculously gigantic industrial boom.
This is happening, and has happened, throughout history as economic models change. Stop trying to make it a racial or political issue, it is simply reality setting in after the party.
Laissez les bons temps rouler.
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