The point of light skirmishers (foot and cavalry)?

[Drag0nUL]

Hello,

After quite a long time I've decided to reinstall EB. this time I've decided to go with a faction without (too much phalanx) as most of my past games were with the likes of Arche Seleukeia, Pontos or Epeiros.

So I started a campaign with Carthage. Since historically skirmishers (especially numidian cavalry) played quite a big role in Hannibal's victories, I've tried to use them. And failed horribly.

I've used Peltastai with good results in the past as they are fast, decently armored and can hold their own in melee, things which makes them very good flankers.

As far as skirmisher cavalry goes, I've also liked Asiatikoi Hippakontistai and Leuce Epos/Curepos as they harass pretty well and having a lance as secondary means they can also execute decent charges once they run out of ammo.

Carthage however has access mostly to very light skirmishers (Numidians, Iberian Velites, Numidian Cavalry and Equites Caetrati) which are pretty much worthless in melee, so they are useful only as long as their javelins last.

However, they usually don't have that many (6 or so) and it seems that almost everything west of Athens is either super-heavy infantry(which makes javelins pretty much useless) or have javelins of their own. And since most targets are better armored than the skirmishers, if they return fire they usually kill more than they lose.

So I'm interested in other people's opinions: how do you make light, unarmored skirmish infantry and cavalry work?

[VikingPower]

You should not let the skirmishers throw javelins to the front of enemy units, but you should use them to out-flank the enemy and throw javelins to his back or non-shield side. For the javelins will then ignore the opponent's shield (and armour I think). However, Iberian units do throw Armour-piercing javelins so they should do some more damage to the unit's front and side. Iberian units do also have more reach with their javelins than the Romans and Celts, I think. Recommended light infantry is Balearic light infantry which is a mix of good AP light unit and skirmishers (6 non-AP javelins) and the Iberian light infantry (with 2 AP javelins).

[QuintusSertorius]

First up, we really distinguish Peltastai (Thracian and Greek) from most of the rest of the javelin-men. Because they're medium infantry who can also skirmish, so different rules apply.

Taking them out of the discussion, proper skirmishers - Akontistai, Gund e Palta, Leves, Iberi Velites, Numidian skirmishers and so on - can be tricky. I take them more for historicity and difficulty's sake than by choice. They're elephant slayers, but you rarely face them so it's of limited use.

Skirmishers are always useful against other lightly-armed sorts - the same units you'd have your archers single out. It tends to work better from the back or non-shielded side, but that isn't essential. If you have the luxury of walking them around the fighting line to hurl stuff, so much the better, it's a double-whammy of missile fire and being flanked. If not, they can still cause damage from safely behind your battle line.

They're only as useful as they have ammunition, when they run out you should only use them as flankers if the enemy is already worn down. Otherwise they just get butchered.

One minor exploit seems to be wooden walled settlements. I often run my javelinmen up to the wall and wait for the AI to move units like slingers or archers into range, to be massacred by javelins.

As far as skirmisher cavalry go, again let's take out Curepos/Leuce Epos, because they're medium cavalry. You can use them for charges to the rear against any up to medium non-phalanx infantry with good effect.

The lighter sort divide into spear/lance-armed and sword-armed. Sword-armed are basically useless in melee, even with an AP weapon. This is because their charge is worthless, and charging is where cavalry do all their killing. They're also pretty pathetic at riding down routing troops. Spear-armed sorts you should be using in a similar fashion to javelin-men - ride around and throw javelins from the rear, when the enemy is worn down and out charge home. Or alternatively, wait around for your foot flankers to break them, then use them to kill the routers and re-engage the foot flankers on the next target.

[vollorix]

Aside from the main points named by QS and others:

You can use skirmishers to absorb the deadly Roman pila when playing as Carthage.
Spear armed skirmishers can be used to reinforce your cavalry against the enemy one.
Sword armed skirmishers with "ap" attribute can be used to engage the exausted enemy line troops from the rear ( an exausted unit of heavy infantry of your own would hardly do any more damage then fresh light units ).
And, last but not least, they are there to fight enemy skirmishers and persue routing units.

Numidian cavalry can wear down any other cavalry, particulary in the desert, distract enemy generals, or, even better, kill routed enemy generals ( who love to escape with only 1 men left in the unit, the general himself ^^ ), especially if they still have some ammunition, throwing it into their backs.

Not too few options for a "worthles" unit, i´d say.

[QuintusSertorius]

And, last but not least, they are there to fight enemy skirmishers and persue routing units.


This is the primary purpose of skirmishers - killing other skirmishers and chasing down routing enemies.

[moonburn]

anything that can kill an elephant is never useless particulary fighting the epirotes the most humble of all units the akontistai have saved my ass on several ocasions since as kh you really can´t afford much of an army to start with and you must rely heavily on haploi and akontistai and ofc the cavalry one´s are usefull to remove future threats while they´re routing

[Valion]

One minor exploit seems to be wooden walled settlements. I often run my javelinmen up to the wall and wait for the AI to move units like slingers or archers into range, to be massacred by javelins.


Wow i never knew that was an exploit! I just thought it was the AI being a retard xD

[Drag0nUL]

So, from what I understand, main use of skirmishers is killing other skirmishers and routers.

What I don't really get it, is why use skirmishers instead of archers/slingers for that?

Archers and slingers have more ammo and more range, and I can't see any advantages for slingers (apart for the elephant bonuses).

[Rahwana]

thrown missiles attribute negate the double shield values, that make them better for frontal screens, plus they are much more numerous than archers

[QuintusSertorius]

Javelins are a lot more damaging than arrows. Probably on par with slingshot.

[The_Blacksmith]

Javelins are a lot more damaging than arrows. Probably on par with slingshot.

see... every missile have a weakness...

Sling bullets: does not fair well with units like Akontstai, units with many soldiers but weak armour....
Arrows: not good for amoured units...
Javs: good for most units, that are within its range... lacks a bit AP

[QuintusSertorius]

see... every missile have a weakness...

Sling bullets: does not fair well with units like Akontstai, units with many soldiers but weak armour....
Arrows: not good for amoured units...
Javs: good for most units, that are within its range... lacks a bit AP

Barring, of course, the AP javelins that some Iberian and Italic/Roman units have.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Skirmishers make good expendable missile fodder. With large numbers of men in loose formation, they can soak up a lot of enemy fire.

Alternatively they make good flank guardians, either by throwing javelins into an enemy unit, or by acting as a distraction. I always like it when an elite enemy infantry unit wastes its time chasing after my skirmishers instead of attacking the flank of my heavy infantry as it should be doing. Often that buys enough time for me to defeat the rest of the enemy army.

[QuintusSertorius]

Skirmishers make good expendable missile fodder. With large numbers of men in loose formation, they can soak up a lot of enemy fire.

I prefer to hide my skirmishers behind my line troops who can absorb missile fire much better. I'd rather 3 heavies dead than 40 skirmishers. They're a much better target while my archers kill the enemy long-range skirmishers.

[GenosseGeneral]

I made good experiences with equites caetrati against equites romani. They may lack the charge, but charges seem not to be what decides a cavalry fight since they can win it with their shortswords. They are also excellent at chasing cavalry due to their speed and stamina.

[QuintusSertorius]

I made good experiences with equites caetrati against equites romani. They may lack the charge, but charges seem not to be what decides a cavalry fight since they can win it with their shortswords. They are also excellent at chasing cavalry due to their speed and stamina.

Not really the best of tests, Roman equites are amongst the worst "heavy" cavalry in the game, barring Greek hippeis.

[Geticus]

Skirmisher light infantry can be very cost effective against most all cavalry, and esp. light cavalry, if your morale is high enough. As long as they can withstand an initial heavy cavalry charge, they are pretty well capable of immunizing one's flanks and rear against non HA cavalry. Also as Karthadasht look to produce Gldgmtk or whatever they are called, Numidian noble cavalry are like leuke epos on steroids.

[IrishHitman]

Basically, they exist to get in the way of heavy cav while your troops take care of the enemy infantry.

[QuintusSertorius]

Basically, they exist to get in the way of heavy cav while your troops take care of the enemy infantry.

No, that's what thureophoroi and other mobile spearmen are for.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well thureophoroi are there to kill the heavy cav but they can't catch up to them once they start flanking maneuvers. So skirmishers spread across the rear and flanks of your army helps discourage them from charging home until your mobile spear units can counter them.

[QuintusSertorius]

Well thureophoroi are there to kill the heavy cav but they can't catch up to them once they start flanking maneuvers. So skirmishers spread across the rear and flanks of your army helps discourage them from charging home until your mobile spear units can counter them.

You don't need to chase them, just bar their path to your rear/flanks. Skirmishers would drop like flies trying to block heavy cavalry's way.

[IrishHitman]

No, that's what thureophoroi and other mobile spearmen are for.

No, Thureophoroi are too expensive to do that with, not to mention they don't cover such a large area..
Skirmishers are for delaying the heavy cav and breaking up charges as cheaply as possible.

[IrishHitman]

You don't need to chase them, just bar their path to your rear/flanks. Skirmishers would drop like flies trying to block heavy cavalry's way.

The initial charge does kill quite a few, but the horses get bogged down easily.

[QuintusSertorius]

No, Thureophoroi are too expensive to do that with, not to mention they don't cover such a large area..
Skirmishers are for delaying the heavy cav and breaking up charges as cheaply as possible.

Thuerophoroi are cheap and widely available as mercs.


The initial charge does kill quite a few, but the horses get bogged down easily.

Seems a pretty wasteful use of your skirmishers. Unless they're akontistai or other light javelinmen, it's not worth losing 20-odd of them compared to 2 or 3 thureophoroi.

[Ca Putt]

meh, bogging down cav with arkontistai(and they can even kill 1-5) is actually quite effective, that way you take the actual value of every cav unit(no not the charge) the mobility and thus deny him the choice of where he attacks. with them tied up you have plety of time to organise a unit of spearmen or own cav to dispose him of his horsies whereas you only lost some arkontistai of a 120 men unit that can be retrained at a level 1 mic everywhere. this may seem superflous but even the AI sometimes tries to attack your soft underbelly

[Geticus]

I think the skirmisher infantry vs. heavy cav issue depends on which faction and what grade of skirmisher. *Quality* spear-armed skirmishers like German Jugundiz and Lusotannan Ambushers can be levied with 2 or more chevrons standard, and are very cost effective against most any non HA cavalry, Hetairoi included. In fact they pretty well dominate most cavalry at a fraction of the cost. With their melee spears they are strong enough to crush most heavy cavalry, including chariots, in sustained melee. Just approach and shoot the enemy cavalry, if they charge you just alt-click and counter charge with spears. Absorb whatever damage (tier 1 skirmishers are plentiful and cheap) the charge deals, then kill the cavalry and route them. Rinse repeat. If the heavy cav retreats to do another charge, just run them down and stay on them, the heavy cav will become exhausted and pretty well become worthless. Spear armed skirmishers overpower charioteers in the same way. So quality spear armed skirmishers don't just bog heavy cavalry down, they crush them regularly. Jugundiz are also great at filling any point in the line that is starting to get weak as well, since they always have at least 2 chevrons they aren't too bad with the spear. They can also back up the line by shooting javelin showers over the front rank into the enemy line. Finally they can be put in front of the line in loose order to skirmish properly, absorbing pila/javelin showers and dealing out damage before retreating to the rear, this is effective in preserving the numbers of the regular soldiers in the main line who often die in large numbers during javelin exchanges. So as Sweboz I generally have large numbers of Jugundiz skirmishers in every army, they are one of the most cost effective all purpose units available in the game IMO and regularly rack up lots of kills and generally dish out more damage than they receive. If I was a Lusotannan player it would be the same exact thing, Iabarranta and Celtiberian Javelineers are if anything better even than German Jugundiz and easily one of the most cost effective units available in Europe.

[ziegenpeter]

I also think that due to the unit size and lower unit density, skirmishers are great for covering ground. So they can absorb javelins and incline your ennemies heavy inf to charge and absorb the charge . Then you can charge with your inf. I'd rather lose 20 skirmishers than 5 elites (thats a matter of taste,QS has another opinion - see above).
The same for cav: I often had the problem that my flank protectors simply got outrun by the ennemies heavy cav. So what you do is when the ennemies heavy cav is trying to flank, you engage with your skirmisher cav to stop them. Then let your flank protecting spearmen deal with them. Maybe you wanna withdraw the light cav (and pepper their back) and when the ennemies heavy cav tries to withdraw from your spearmen you pin them again. That leaves your heavy cav the time and space to hammer down the ennemies line.

[-42-]

Skirmishers are:

A) Cheap
and
B) Plentiful

As to how they can be used, they can do pretty much anything that doesn't involve being line infantry (not always well, but they are more than enough in the early campaign).