A Discussion on the necessity of the Rebellion and portrayal of the Galactic Empire

[Prussian to the Iron]

I know it sounds nerdy/stupid, but hear me out. I was discussing this with my dad tonight and now I'm really interested and thinking about this.

Throughout the original Star Wars Trilogy, the Galactic Empire is portrayed as an evil, immoral, overall horrible force that must be destroyed by the Rebellion. However, is this the real case? It seems to me that neither side is inherently good or evil, with the only really bad part of the Empire being the Emperor and the Sith.

So, I'll start it off, and everyone please contribute everything you can. Keep it civil kindly.


So as I said, it is very subjective to say that the Empire is truly evil and the Rebellion truly good. It seems to me that the Empire is necessary to keep stability, security, good economy, and, to some extent, civil rights.

Stability.
The Empire is an enormous organization spanning (according to Wookiepedia) 1.5 million planets and 69 million colonies and protectorates. If left to their own agendas, the state of the galaxy would be total anarchy as a whole, with quadrillions or more sentient beings making constant war with one another and resulting in a continual state of primitive and static cultures.

Security.
As stated in this thread, we have examples from other canon associating a takeover by evil in order to do a greater good. Yes, how it is accomplished may be less-than-reputable, but is it not still the greater good and in the interest of the galaxy?
The same applies for the Empire and it's security. From without, there are countless numbers of unknown planets and confederations that would likely have a ball destroying a disunited galaxy. With the Empire and its incredibly strong military (larger, even, than the Republic's), the galaxy would be safe for, barring a rebellion from within, billions, even trillions of years.
From within, Crime would be soon entirely rooted out and put down with an iron fist. Yes, Imperial taxes are excruciating to traders, thus prompting smuggling and other illegal activities, but I believe that the taxes would level out and drop after the completion of the first Death Star, decreasing the need and demand for smuggling and crime. Either way, the Hutts and their crime empire would, in time, be destroyed and entirely wiped out. Petty crimes would likely continue to be treated with an iron fist, as they should be. I know it sounds crazy and idealistic, but I think with Imperial order brought in full force to the galaxy, crime could be, in time, phased out completely.


G2G, far, far more later.

[drone]

I don't think the size of the empire matters, it was run as a republic prior to Palpatine's shenanigans. The evil comes from the centralized power the Sith Emperor possesses and uses to drive imperial policy.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Palpatine was the Star Wars equivalent of Chavez, slowly taking more power for himself and using that power to break down more legal barriers towards more power.

If you really want to talk about where Star Wars gets mucky in terms of good vs evil, let's discuss Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords and talk about how it was revealed that Revan simply pretended to fall to the Dark Side but instead controlled it to create his army in order to conquer the weak and corrupt republic to save the galaxy from the "true sith".

[Ironside]

I don't think the size of the empire matters, it was run as a republic prior to Palpatine's shenanigans. The evil comes from the centralized power the Sith Emperor possesses and uses to drive imperial policy.

Simply going to add that the Galactic Republic was about 25000 years old, so hardly something unstable.

And the main oppression tool is a planet destroyer.

I think that classifies as an evil empire.

Revan choosed a dark side way and was the Republic's only hope against his own army. Grand plans that are complete failures in case of your death aren't really good plans.

[Louis VI the Fat]

1.5 million planets and 69 million colonies and protectorates.
And the main oppression tool is a planet destroyer. This got me thinking...


The Death Star can vaporise an entire world in the blink of a second!
But....it needs to be real close. Right next to a planet. In the movie, Grand Moff Tarkin orders to 'set course for Alderaan'. It then takes them days to get there, perhaps longer. Let's say the Death Star can move from one planet to another every week. That's little over fifty planets destroyed every year then.

That's nothing! A mere fifty in 1.5 million mortality rate owing to 'killed by evil galactic empire'. Adding in colonies, a fifty in 70 million chance! In a galaxy far, far away and a long time into the future, on planet earth, one runs a risk of about 150-300 in 1.5 million, or 7000-14000 in 70 million, to die of a traffic accident. Including colonies, nearly 300 times higher mortalility rate for earth traffic than for Galactic Planet Destroyer! Yet these odds are considered acceptable. No reason at all to abolish traffic.

Why would anybody fear, never mind overthrow, a Galactic Empire who's main instrument of terror is a near negligable chance of dying from your planet being blown up?


I need to call George. He shall have to make new changes in the upcoming 3d version. I dunno, maybe six lasers shooting out of the Death Star in all directions or something, to make it more fearsome. Though he'll probably settle for 'Alderaan shot first'.

[Ironside]

Why would anybody fear, never mind overthrow, a Galactic Empire who's main instrument of terror is a near negligable chance of dying from your planet being blown up?


There's also a wast fleet capable of planetary bombardment. The planet destroyer is the main terror weapon, while the fleet is the more effective weapon (but it's old, so not as scary).

In general, the size of a huge galatic civilization is probably larger that what can be properly comprehended. A fleet of a few million capital war ships is small in a star wars universe.

[Hax]

If you really want to talk about where Star Wars gets mucky in terms of good vs evil, let's discuss Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords and talk about how it was revealed that Revan simply pretended to fall to the Dark Side but instead controlled it to create his army in order to conquer the weak and corrupt republic to save the galaxy from the "true sith".

Hahaha, I remember that. I love that game.

Also, Yuuzhan Vong everbody? Grand Moff Thrawn wondered if Palpatine's intention had been to form a strong force to be able to oppose the Vong invasion.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I have lost my nerd card since I have no idea what you are all talking about.

[The Stranger]

same...

[Gregoshi]

This first (original) movie had examples of Empire's evil - the unnecessary murder of the Jawas and Luke's aunt and uncle. Also, in the conference room scene, Tarkin mentions that the governors will have free reign in their territories and that fear will keep the planetary systems in line. Fear as a tool is not something generally associated with the Good Guys. Then there is the killing of the Jedi - or at the very least the murder of the Jedi younglings. We didn't get all the details, but Lando wasn't too thrilled with the Imperial interference and Vader's further threats to his operation on Bespin. Lastly, if the soon-to-be-Emperor was such a saint, why was Jar Jar Binks not the first being killed during his power grab - even ahead of taking out the Jedi?

[Pannonian]

This first (original) movie had examples of Empire's evil - the unnecessary murder of the Jawas and Luke's aunt and uncle.

That's just balls. The stormtroopers just wanted to question the Jawas about some stolen robots, and were doing the old routine of disbelieving the BS the Jawas were coming out with, probably culminating in banging them up in the clink for a week, when the Jawas made a run for it and forced them to shoot. If they'd just cooperated, they wouldn't have come to any harm, barring maybe a criminal record if the charges stick.

Also, the stormtroopers were called in to resolve a domestic dispute, where the Lars couple had been arguing, resulting in Owen receiving an injury to the side of the head. The stormtroopers did a good job of calming things down, advising Shmi to spend the night in the station while things cooled down. It's not their fault that, instead of packing for the night, Shmi took out a thermal detonator and blew up the farm.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Revan choosed a dark side way and was the Republic's only hope against his own army. Grand plans that are complete failures in case of your death aren't really good plans.

The jedi's plan to rely on Revan to save them was a bad plan. Revan's plan to conquer the galaxy to save it from a future invasion wasn't. If he died, he knew that Malak would take over and continue the war. The Sith didn't rely on Revan, they relied on the Star Forge. Although Malak was actually a tool of the dark side, the point was that under the Sith the galaxy would still be inherently stronger from the more evil threat that lurked which possibly wanted the entire extinction of the galaxy. The perspective was trading one evil for another figuring that one allowed for it's own destruction while the other didn't. To quote one of the best conversations with Jolee Bindo:

Jolee: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."
Revan: "Are you saying what we're doing isn't important?"
Jolee: "Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy, we're in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it'll come around again, but I'd rather not wait that long. So we do what we have to do and we try to stop the Sith. But don't start thinking this war, your war, is more important than any other war just because you're in it."

[GeneralHankerchief]

Imperial arguments are neatly summed up here (http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/RebProLies.html) (excuse the formatting, this website is nearly as old as Time Cube).

My own personal for/against arguments:

For:
Okay, I hate the EU as much as anyone, but look at the amount of government changes we've had since the fall of the Empire. New Republic, Galactic Alliance, and whatever's in place now. This is all in the span of a little over 100 years, IIRC. Contrast this to the previous stability of well over 1,000 years.
Jobs. Hey, somebody's gotta run that Imperial Navy.
Efficiency. As with all autocracies, Palpatine delivers progress at the cost of comfort. However, progress is progress.

Against:
Tarkin and the Tarkin Doctrine (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tarkin_Doctrine). Argue for efficiency all you want, but the Tarkin Doctrine and some of the actions undertaken in its name cross the line into sadism.
Individual rights concerns. Ever notice how the Imperial Navy was staffed almost entirely by humans? Thrawn nonwithstanding, it was because Palpatine was a huge racist. One species prospered at the cost of thousands, if not millions of others.
Unpopular rule. The penultimate scene in Return of the Jedi (the "revised" editions) show a montage of popular celebrations across several planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. This is obviously meant to imply that this sort of thing has happened galaxy-wide and proves that the Palpatinian Empire was, if nothing else, massively unpopular. At some point you have to have a government that the people do not outright hate.
Superweapons. The Death Star was only (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eye_of_Palpatine) one (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher) of (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_Gun) Palpatine's (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Devastator) many (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tarkin_(superweapon)) brainchildren (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_Super_Star_Destroyer). I mean, at some point, you have to say that all of this stuff is overkill if the Empire is merely only interested in stability and security and all of that good stuff.

[HoreTore]

"Empire" suggests a hereditary ruler, which means an inbred ruler.

More than you'd ever need to rebel...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Imperial arguments are neatly summed up here (http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/RebProLies.html) (excuse the formatting, this website is nearly as old as Time Cube).

My own personal for/against arguments:

For:

Okay, I hate the EU as much as anyone, but look at the amount of government changes we've had since the fall of the Empire. New Republic, Galactic Alliance, and whatever's in place now. This is all in the span of a little over 100 years, IIRC. Contrast this to the previous stability of well over 1,000 years.
Jobs. Hey, somebody's gotta run that Imperial Navy.
Efficiency. As with all autocracies, Palpatine delivers progress at the cost of comfort. However, progress is progress.



Against:

Tarkin and the Tarkin Doctrine (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tarkin_Doctrine). Argue for efficiency all you want, but the Tarkin Doctrine and some of the actions undertaken in its name cross the line into sadism.
Individual rights concerns. Ever notice how the Imperial Navy was staffed almost entirely by humans? Thrawn nonwithstanding, it was because Palpatine was a huge racist. One species prospered at the cost of thousands, if not millions of others.
Unpopular rule. The penultimate scene in Return of the Jedi (the "revised" editions) show a montage of popular celebrations across several planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. This is obviously meant to imply that this sort of thing has happened galaxy-wide and proves that the Palpatinian Empire was, if nothing else, massively unpopular. At some point you have to have a government that the people do not outright hate.
Superweapons. The Death Star was only (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eye_of_Palpatine) one (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher) of (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_Gun) Palpatine's (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Devastator) many (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tarkin_(superweapon)) brainchildren (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_Super_Star_Destroyer). I mean, at some point, you have to say that all of this stuff is overkill if the Empire is merely only interested in stability and security and all of that good stuff.



Your arguments against undermine the arguments for. The rampant racism of Palpatine meant the empire was probably actually extremely inefficient for not utilizing the other species properly. In fact, the racism directly impacted efficiency by breeding traitorous aliens into joining rebel causes. It also meant that inherently those being discriminated against would hate the empire.

The fact that after the empire fell there was chaos is not a pro for keeping the empire but a con. The republic lasted thousands of years because of it's structure of peaceful transfer of power. By Palpatine implementing a new empire by force, he broke the cycle and instituted a new one for people to follow (power through violence). Otherwise, people who started up wars in the EU might have otherwise been peacefully whining for decades in the galactic Senate.

As for jobs, I doubt there was any rampant unemployment problems going on. Otherwise the smart thing for the Trade Federation and the Republic would have been to just recruit them. Instead we get robot made robots on one side and clones on the other made by a few Kaminos. From what I remember the only reason clones were abandoned by Palpatine was due to loyalty issues and not because there was too many people, not enough jobs.

[CBR]

It seems to me that the Empire is necessary to keep stability, security, good economy, and, to some extent, civil rights.
No more mind probes for you. :grin:

Did you forget the thousand generations of peace and justice before the Dark Times, before the Empire?

[a completely inoffensive name]

No more mind probes for you. :grin:

Did you forget the thousand generations of peace and justice before the Dark Times, before the Empire?

Justice? Perhaps. Peace? Nope.

[CBR]

Justice? Perhaps. Peace? Nope.
Obiwan said so!

[Hax]

But he also told Luke that his father had been killed by Darth Vader.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The lies are strong in that one. :no:

[CBR]

But he also told Luke that his father had been killed by Darth Vader.
So what? He could hardly tell the truth at that point as Luke was not prepared. The stakes were rather high. It is nothing compared to the lies and ambitions we see from Tarkin, Vader or the Emperor himself is it? It was not Obiwan who blew up a peaceful planet, or did Lucas make a new version where Alderaan shot first?

[Ronin]

I was gonna write a reply....then I realized I didn´t need to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lzEhoXads

and


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VZj-85E5o

[al Roumi]

So what? He could hardly tell the truth at that point as Luke was not prepared. The stakes were rather high. It is nothing compared to the lies and ambitions we see from Tarkin, Vader or the Emperor himself is it? It was not Obiwan who blew up a peaceful planet, or did Lucas make a new version where Alderaan shot first?

I thought the point was that Darth Vader did effectively kill Luke's father, as, in embracing the dark side to become Darth Vader, Anakin became someone else and renounced his former life and hence disowned his son.

I am personaly very glad that Hollywood is broadly liberal. If it was instead controlled by Tea party types and pedalled their values, I'd have far less tolerance for American films.

[CBR]

I thought the point was that Darth Vader did effectively kill Luke's father, as, in embracing the dark side to become Darth Vader, Anakin became someone else and renounced his former life and hence disowned his son.
Yeah, Obi Wan says it was the truth "from a certain point of view". So technically I guess he did not lie but neither did he tell everything.

He also left out the bit about Leia. There could have been some nasty brother-sister action if Leia hadn't preferred the bad boy instead. So maybe he should have told Luke about that...

[Prussian to the Iron]

That's just balls. The stormtroopers just wanted to question the Jawas about some stolen robots, and were doing the old routine of disbelieving the BS the Jawas were coming out with, probably culminating in banging them up in the clink for a week, when the Jawas made a run for it and forced them to shoot. If they'd just cooperated, they wouldn't have come to any harm, barring maybe a criminal record if the charges stick.

Also, the stormtroopers were called in to resolve a domestic dispute, where the Lars couple had been arguing, resulting in Owen receiving an injury to the side of the head. The stormtroopers did a good job of calming things down, advising Shmi to spend the night in the station while things cooled down. It's not their fault that, instead of packing for the night, Shmi took out a thermal detonator and blew up the farm.

I Love You.


And anyway, let's stay away from non-Imperial political talk. The ethics behind Obi-Wan's semi-lie to Luke are completely unrelated.

So basically the generally main anti-Empire sentiment appears to be the violence/super weapons. As we have seen many, many times in our own world (most recently the wars in the Middle East), Soldiers tend to get a little antsy sometimes, and while they may at times commit atrocities, the media tends to far overemphasize on these incidents.

[Louis VI the Fat]

As we have seen many, many times in our own world (most recently the wars in the Middle East), Soldiers tend to get a little antsy sometimes, and while they may at times commit atrocities, the media tends to far overemphasize on these incidents.No. The rule to the exception is that soldiers commit atrocities. These then remain mostly underreported because the more brutal the regime, the more likely it is that the press is firmly repressed too.


Dictatorships exists because too many people fall for their promise of law and order, and reason away the atrocities. If one digs the order and stability of Galactic Empires, then become a commie and move to North Korea - it's the nearest thing on earth to the Galactic Empire, complete with some bizarre Sith Lords at the top.

[Prussian to the Iron]

However one big fact you are ignoring is that the populace creates the need for Imperial Occupation. If you recall, at the Congress of Vienna, France originally had very fair terms; No occupation forces and no reparations were going to be required. Napoleon came back and lost Waterloo, and France was then forced to pay huge amounts of reparations to Europe, as well as being occupied by foreign nations until such debt was paid.

Now, based on this, so long as those under Imperial rule will simply refrain from Rebellion or non-cooperation with the Empire, there should be no need for heavy occupation and thus far fewer atrocities comitted.


I think at the very beginning, the Empire and its policies are probably flawed for the situation, but given another 20-40 years and the Empire would have total subjugation and thus peace from within. After a solid foundation and stability is established, the Empire can turn its eye to other things, such as the reduction of crime and stability of economy I described above.

[CBR]

So basically the generally main anti-Empire sentiment appears to be the violence/super weapons. As we have seen many, many times in our own world (most recently the wars in the Middle East), Soldiers tend to get a little antsy sometimes, and while they may at times commit atrocities, the media tends to far overemphasize on these incidents.
One thing is to have a super weapon, another thing is how it is used. Blowing up Alderaan was not because Tarkin was "a little antsy". That act, along with the Emperor dissolving the Imperial Senate, sets up the Empire to be a dictatorship that use total destruction at whim. Most people would consider that evil.

[Gregoshi]

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

[a completely inoffensive name]

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

Or maybe Lucas shows how he didn't know how to write a proper script since 1975.

[Gregoshi]

Or maybe Lucas shows how he didn't know how to write a proper script since 1975.
I wish I couldn't write proper scripts like that.

[Prussian to the Iron]

One thing is to have a super weapon, another thing is how it is used. Blowing up Alderaan was not because Tarkin was "a little antsy". That act, along with the Emperor dissolving the Imperial Senate, sets up the Empire to be a dictatorship that use total destruction at whim. Most people would consider that evil.

Alright, but does one evil act (as huge scale as it may be) condone an entire rebellion, resulting in the loss of billions, possibly trillions of lives? And does that same single act justify the overthrow of an entire empire, resulting in total and complete disunification in the galaxy, as well as a period of anarchy present in any revolution? Plus, the Rebellion after the movies would still have to fight the Empire on every world the remnants (basically....the entire Empire, since only a small, small, small percentage were on the Death Star's) occupied, causing greater destruction and chaos then there would have been without a Rebellion.

Again, I believe that individual events, personal rights etc. is one thing, but you have to look at the big picture. Is the Empire probably there for the greater good? yes. The Sith have no reason to want the entire Galaxy destroyed, so it's not like they would just go on a planet destroying campaign for S&G's. They did what thye felt necessary to stop the Rebellion, despite the negative backlash. All-in-all, they are interested in the greater good of the galaxy.



You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...

Maybe he thought they were like better quality stormtroopers? snipers? maybe even clones. I dont know, maybe hes a blind old man and he cant tell for a crap the difference. If he did in fact shoot them dead, then is it not an evil act, similar to how the Sith go about their actions? perhaps he is an agent of the Sith, sent to push Luke to the Dark Side without seeming to be.....

[a completely inoffensive name]

I wish I couldn't write proper scripts like that.

No you don't. You want to write the next Phantom Menace?

[Greyblades]

Great my first foray into the backroom and I the first thread I find has devolved into "George loose-cas sux" before I even get here.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Great my first foray into the backroom and I the first thread I find has devolved into "George loose-cas sux" before I even get here.

I am not saying "George Lucas sux". I am saying that George Lucas can't write a full script properly and needs editors to make it good enough and consistent. The prequel trilogy Lucas had full reign and complete control with little resistance to his ideas and the quality of them became terrible for it.

Watch the prequel trilogy reviews from redlettermedia and see the movies diagnosed to a good degree.

[Greyblades]

...I retract my last statement...
...God that guys voice is creepy.

[CBR]

Alright, but does one evil act (as huge scale as it may be) condone an entire rebellion, resulting in the loss of billions, possibly trillions of lives?
The Rebellion was already there. But it is the Emperor who removes the remaining way of dialogue by dissolving the senate. We can only guess at how many lives that already have been lost at the hand of the Emperor as he built up his power.


And does that same single act justify the overthrow of an entire empire, resulting in total and complete disunification in the galaxy, as well as a period of anarchy present in any revolution?
We do not know if it would result in disunification. From the movies it appears that multiple species work together, so it might simply be the structure of the old republic that finally get together when they realise that only armed resistance will stop the Emperor.


Plus, the Rebellion after the movies would still have to fight the Empire on every world the remnants (basically....the entire Empire, since only a small, small, small percentage were on the Death Star's) occupied, causing greater destruction and chaos then there would have been without a Rebellion.
Perhaps but maybe not that likely when the Empire is so centralised as it is. With the Emperor gone it could fall apart very quickly as there is little to fight for.


Is the Empire probably there for the greater good? yes.
Whose greater good? The Emperor wants absolute power. All we ever see from the Empire are big warships, stormtroopers, Deathstars and arbitrary violence to stay in power.

We are told that "the regional governors will have direct control over their territories" That suggests the Emperor does not care much about what happens at the local level. It is all about fear and control as the Emperor just wants to be at the top all by himself.

I see nothing about any greater good. All seems to point towards a quest for power and greed.

The big picture is one of continuous oppression with loss of life and wasted resources needed to maintain a big military, all to stay in power.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...Awesome post.

This thread delivers. :beam:

[Prussian to the Iron]

The Rebellion was already there. But it is the Emperor who removes the remaining way of dialogue by dissolving the senate. We can only guess at how many lives that already have been lost at the hand of the Emperor as he built up his power.


The Rebellion was already there? As in pre-Empire? Source?



We do not know if it would result in disunification. From the movies it appears that multiple species work together, so it might simply be the structure of the old republic that finally get together when they realise that only armed resistance will stop the Emperor.


Okay, I'll go halfway and say it wouldn't result in complete disunification, but without a centralized and established government, you can rest assured that most if not all the colonies would break free of any sort of rule, and that you would definitely have a lot of planets disassociating themselves from the Rebellion. The effect is still felt, though, being that you now have thousands of sovereign worlds to deal with.

Partially to your multi-species alliance and to others saying that the Empire was racist against all non-humans, I would say that is probably wrong. Yes, the only Imperials we see are stormtroopers (humans), but does that mean there are not militias levied on other planets under the Imperial name? No. It is common trade for large Empires and Kingdoms to raise a local Militia under their name and allegiance, but made up of the natives. So I have no doubt that on certain worlds where the natives could be trusted (not Kashyyk obviously), there were definitely local militias working for the empire, using their weapons and possibly vehicles.



Perhaps but maybe not that likely when the Empire is so centralised as it is. With the Emperor gone it could fall apart very quickly as there is little to fight for.


Have you taken into account the massive amounts of troops employed by the Empire? The Emperor would not be so short-sighted so as to leave them leaderless. The Moffs would and did direct them to fight the New Republic, causing huge amounts of devestation and death. Far more than would happen if the Rebellion had not defeated the Empire. Plus, do you think all these soldiers will simply return home? No. I don't remember who or what it was, but I do remember that at least one time in the Crusades, an entire army basically went leaderless and rampaged across the Holy Land, killing indiscriminatly. That would be the disbanded Imperial Remnants, only on a far bigger and worse scale.



Whose greater good? The Emperor wants absolute power. All we ever see from the Empire are big warships, stormtroopers, Deathstars and arbitrary violence to stay in power.


As stated in the opening paragraphs of this article (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong_War), the Emperor did in fact know that an invasion would be coming, and in response built enormous fleets and superweapons. That sounds like the greater good if you ask me, and because of the fall of the Empire, this invasion ended up taking trillions of lives, rather than maybe a max of a few million.



The big picture is one of continuous oppression with loss of life and wasted resources needed to maintain a big military, all to stay in power.

Loss of life? Not hardly. The Empire did not run around killing people for fun. Anyone who was killed was a threat to the Empire, and was taken care of appropriately. Do we not do the same in our world?

[CBR]

The Rebellion was already there? As in pre-Empire? Source?
As in before before the Death Star blew up a planet. The Emperor has been in power or at least increasing his power for about 20 years before Episode IV. It is safe to assume the resistance had only been growing.


Okay, I'll go halfway and say it wouldn't result in complete disunification, but without a centralized and established government, you can rest assured that most if not all the colonies would break free of any sort of rule, and that you would definitely have a lot of planets disassociating themselves from the Rebellion. The effect is still felt, though, being that you now have thousands of sovereign worlds to deal with.
Since the Republic seems to have been very peaceful it is fair to assume that a large part of the planets were quite happy with the arrangement. It is only because of the trickery by Palpatine that he is given so much power to fight the threat he himself has created.

Although I don't even like to drag in the last three movies, they show a Republic which clearly is not prepared to handle any serious threat. That would suggest that there had been no big wars or rebellions for a very long time.

The question also stands as to why the Emperor would dissolve a senate if a majority of the planets loved it so much. I'd say he removed it because all he had was trouble from the senators. The more powerful he became the larger and more open the resistance. He wanted to remove it to decentralise the opposition.

In the early part of Episode IV the senate is mentioned several times as something that cause trouble, and even that it would be dangerous if word got out of the attack on the consular ship. Darth Vader gives the order to make it appear that all got killed. So they are doing what they can to hide the truth from the senate.

If we look at the Rebellion we see how it starts out as senators doing clandestine missions and a hidden rebel base to a point where they can gather large fleets. IMO that shows how the Rebellion is gathering momentum and the Emperor already has lost control over parts of the Empire.

Plus what is this about building Death Star 2.0 around a small forest moon that has absolutely no infrastructure to handle it. Why does the Emperor need to hide it? I'm sure the Emperor would sit in chair and claim "I have foreseen this" and it all would be a hugely expensive and elaborate plan to trick the "small band" of rebels into getting wiped out. But why even need it if he was in so much control of the galaxy?

So yes, the Emperor has the military might but that is really the only thing that keeps him in power. The Rebellion should be seen as the Old Republic fighting back.


Have you taken into account the massive amounts of troops employed by the Empire? The Emperor would not be so short-sighted so as to leave them leaderless.
I guess most soldiers have not been recruited to be part of an evil empire but because it was the right thing to do, or so they thought. Control of information is important as described above. Plus I think Imperial power is more about dominating space with grand fleets than having a gazillion foot soldiers anyway. That is why a Death Star was needed as only a few planets had any real Imperial presence. It is also why we see huge Super Star Destroyers. It is all about shock and awe to keep everyone in check.

I'm sure there would several high ranking leaders (and very ruthless too) but the problem is that with the Emperor gone so is the Empire as there is no heir or legitimacy anymore. Maybe some of them would fight hard, maybe not. They would be the remnants of evil that just had to be destroyed.


As stated in the opening paragraphs of this article (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong_War), the Emperor did in fact know that an invasion would be coming, and in response built enormous fleets and superweapons.
Maybe that is considered canon but I don't care too much about it really. It is all stuff made up to keep the universe alive and sell more books and games. There is nothing in the movies that suggest a big external threat looming ahead. And it still does not justify turning into an emperor and blowing up peaceful planets.

Why did he not convince the Republic about such a threat? He was good at making up all the other stuff. It just does not make much sense except to keep a story going that involves conflict and which works great for more books and games.


Loss of life? Not hardly. The Empire did not run around killing people for fun. Anyone who was killed was a threat to the Empire, and was taken care of appropriately. Do we not do the same in our world?
Yes dictatorships generally kill who they perceive as a threat to them. I'm sure a lot of them did not like it but they had simply convinced themselves that it was what had to be done.

Tarkin simply signed an order for the execution of Leia and blew up Alderaan because they were in the neighbourhood anyway. Can you find anything that resembles that in our world, among democratic nations?

[Prussian to the Iron]

ugh, im too tired to respond right now. tomorrow though.

[CBR]

ugh, im too tired to respond right now. tomorrow though.
Take all the time you need.

But I would say that if you want to bring in all material, which is perfectly fine since it apparently is canon, then the link you provided does create a different picture of who Palpatine was and his reasons for doing what he did.

So when I base my opinion purely on the movies we won't be able to reach any consensus as we use a different set of sources.

So perhaps it would be better to simply agree to disagree. :bow:

[Prussian to the Iron]

Well I intended on using just the movies, but I already knew that Palpatine had to have a reason, and I even stated prior to my seeing that article that he would have foreseen attacks from without, causing a large buildup of Imperial military. I just used that to reinforce it.

[Strike For The South]

This is why none of us get laid

[CBR]

This is why none of us get laid
Or the result of not getting laid. There is that annoying causality stuff again...

[Greyblades]

This is why none of us get laid


Well with that attitude your definitely not getting laid.

[Strike For The South]

Or the result of not getting laid. There is that annoying causality stuff again...

lol, Chicken or the egg

[Hax]

All this talk on fertilisation makes me want to spend some time alone.

[drone]

The obvious proof of the Empire's evilness is in the music. The Imperial March is not the theme song of a bunch of peace and freewill hippies.

[Ironside]

Well I intended on using just the movies, but I already knew that Palpatine had to have a reason, and I even stated prior to my seeing that article that he would have foreseen attacks from without, causing a large buildup of Imperial military. I just used that to reinforce it.

He's part of an organisation that have tried to wipe out the Jedi order in thousands of years. To maintain proper treason levels within this organisation, they've decided to use the rule of two for about 1000 years.

Be one dude, with one apprentice, disband the main governing body and you'll need quite a big army to control your new empire.

There's also that tiny point of that you don't need to be a grand ruler to ensure that there's warnings about the threat and cause a military build up. In particular when being a master manipulator. It's the equivalent of justifying a spy master to become dictator because he predicted a war.

[Greyblades]

Except this was a republic with no standing army untill he was in power, somehow I doubt palpatine exactly would want to trust those people to win a galaxy scale war.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Except this was a republic with no standing army untill he was in power, somehow I doubt palpatine exactly would want to trust those people to win a galaxy scale war.

True. A state the size of the Republic could not have survived any serious invasions without a standing army. Relying on clones all created on one planet for all of your security needs is not a safe bet. A standing army recruited and payed aka the Stormtroopers and Imperial Navy? Definitely more stable and reliable.

[Greyblades]

I'm not sure if they even had a standing army in the period between kotor and attack of the clones.

[lars573]

You Imperials got me thinking. We know from the movies that a stormtrooper could not hit the broadside of a barn door from 3 inches. Now in the Jawa incident Obi-wan points out the the precision of the shots and linking such precision to the stormtroopers - which we movie-goers can now recognize as a lie. Seems that only a Jedi could shoot with that much precision, and there seems to be only one Jedi around...a Jedi who knows that Luke's aunt and uncle are the one thing keeping Luke from galavanting across the galaxy with him. Old Ben Kenobi ain't so crazy after all...
Lucas apologists like to hold to the belief that the Stormtroopers were shooting poorly on purpose. Because the master plan to find the rebel base on Yavin needed them to escape.



And it should also be noted that the Empire, under a new dynasty of "gray" force users, wins in the end. It never totally collapsed after Palpatine (who wasn't a hereditary monarch, but an elected one) died the first time. The pro-rebel planets immediately went over. But the New Republic had to wage a 20 year war just to get Corusant, and most of the old Republic, under their control. And the Yuuzhan Vong destroyed the New Republic after only a few years. They had to re-form a new pan-galactic state called Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. Which itself went the same authoritarian way as the Empire. Which caused it to nearly fold like the Empire had. And the Empire under the rule of those gray force users, the Fel dynasty, swooped in as the bringers of law, order, and justice. Owning to their Victory without war (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Victory_Without_War) policy to spread the views of the New Order. Without the side order of militarist jack-boot to the gut.

So really the Galactic Empire, like the Galactic Republic it was the official successor to, was stable. Over the long term. And once it had purged itself of the highly destabilizing Sith influence. Their whole superiority at any cost attitude always makes any government they form shaky.

/NERD!

[Subotan]

The thing that annoys me about Star Wars politics isn't the fact that it is totally absent, but that it sorta tries to be a kinda semi-political film, but it fails UTTERLY. For example, take the Separatists. What are their goals, other than to separate. Nobody knows. It's a complete mystery. Other than the fact that they kill Jedi, we have no idea that these are bad guys. This doesn't just fail from my political-nerd viewpoint, but it completely fails to produce any kind of emotion when we see the Confederacy getting battered (the fact that they're droids doesn't help). What kind of other film would we consider good when we do not care at all about whether who we are told are the bad guys triumphs or not?

Likewise, for Palpatine to mastermind his entire political ascendency and plan without ever once being suspected of treason is so ludicrously fantastical as to be far beyond the political abilities and cunning of Pericles, Cicero, Tokugawa, Gladstone, Bismarck, Stalin, FDR, De Gaulle, Nixon and Chirac COMBINED and IN SPACE. It is so annoying watching Palpatine rise up on his elevator of evil, whilst the stupidest and most obtuse "politicians" that have ever dared to be scripted on to the silver screen remain oblivious to his ascent. Even Yoda, allegedly the wisest Jedi evarrrr doesn't even guess a thing!

As well as a whole host of other things, such as why didn't everyone in the universe freak out when Order 66 was implemented and how the hell did anyone let Jar Jar pass the Military Creation Act in replacement of Amidala, who had been leading the fight AGAINST the act.... Good god. Star Wars politics make me mad.

[Megas Methuselah]

True. A state the size of the Republic could not have survived any serious invasions without a standing army. Relying on clones all created on one planet for all of your security needs is not a safe bet. A standing army recruited and payed aka the Stormtroopers and Imperial Navy? Definitely more stable and reliable.

Wait, let's stop here for a second. Before the Clone Wars, the Republic supposedly had no standing army. It was with the Clone Wars that Palpatine came to power, and it was with the Clone Wars that the military build-up of the Republic/Empire truly began. There's nothing quite wrong with relying on a huge Clone Army. Did the similarities in uniforms and equipment between the clone and imperials ever strike you as... odd? The clone troops were the roots of the imperial military forces.

[Gregoshi]

Subotan, I think you need to go to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters. ~:pat:

Star Wars is an escapist sci-fi/fantasy adventure film, not a politcal drama. Nor do the films delve into the intracacies of galactic politics - just some sound bites to give the action context. As Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." :laugh4:

[Greyblades]

I'm guessing subotan's a song of ice and fire fan.

[Subotan]

That's the problem though, it tries to be everything at once, a bit political, a bit sci-fi, a bit family etc. I mean, the latest Star Trek film is I think it's really great and really entertaining to watch, despite there being no politics at all. On the other hand, I adore Starship Troopers for it's ruthless and bitter satire of fascism. Star Wars, especially the prequels, tries to land somewhere in the middle and completely fails. The politics has enough of a presence to be noticeable, but not enough to be worthwhile.

EDIT: Haha, no I'm not actually, although I've heard good things about them. I mainly read political biography for fun - my Christmas presents this year were biographies of John Adams and De Gaulle :D

[Greyblades]

Well its worth reading, there's 7 noble houses more interesting characters than you can shake a stick at. Not to mention its pretty brutal when it comes to how life isn't fair. Plus if all goes well I'll be starting a mafia game based on it soon. :beam:

[Subotan]

Oh nice! Sounds almost as complicated as Homestuck :p

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm not sure if they even had a standing army in the period between kotor and attack of the clones.

yes they did. There were as always, lots of wars that ended up being pointless.

[Greyblades]

Oh nice! Sounds almost as complicated as Homestuck :p

Well just dont get too attached to the point of view characters. Oh and for the love of god dont look up the tv tropes, personal experience here but if you see anything about an event called the red wedding press the back button, trust me it is worth not spoiling.

[lars573]

The thing that annoys me about Star Wars politics isn't the fact that it is totally absent, but that it sorta tries to be a kinda semi-political film, but it fails UTTERLY. For example, take the Separatists. What are their goals, other than to separate. Nobody knows. It's a complete mystery. Other than the fact that they kill Jedi, we have no idea that these are bad guys. This doesn't just fail from my political-nerd viewpoint, but it completely fails to produce any kind of emotion when we see the Confederacy getting battered (the fact that they're droids doesn't help). What kind of other film would we consider good when we do not care at all about whether who we are told are the bad guys triumphs or not?
The Separatists (public) goals is to make a new pan-galactic state that is free of the problems the Republic had by 33 BBY* Corruption in the galactic Senate mostly. And they're not all bad guys. The Clone Wars cartoon has about 7 episodes that deal with the political side of things. The social and economic upheavals that the clone war either caused or made worse. That some of the seperatists were snarling supervillians but others were good people fed-up with the Republic bull-crap. However the snarling supervillians are in on the gag that their really there to give Palpatine a bogey-man to give him the leverage to total control of the Republic's government.


Likewise, for Palpatine to mastermind his entire political ascendency and plan without ever once being suspected of treason is so ludicrously fantastical as to be far beyond the political abilities and cunning of Pericles, Cicero, Tokugawa, Gladstone, Bismarck, Stalin, FDR, De Gaulle, Nixon and Chirac COMBINED and IN SPACE. It is so annoying watching Palpatine rise up on his elevator of evil, whilst the stupidest and most obtuse "politicians" that have ever dared to be scripted on to the silver screen remain oblivious to his ascent. Even Yoda, allegedly the wisest Jedi evarrrr doesn't even guess a thing!
However all those politico's never had one VASTLY important advantage that Palpatine had. The Force. You know that thing that let's it's users see the future, read minds, control weaker minds, and throw lightning from your hands, and let a 65 yearold man wipe the floor with Samuel L. Jackson. Any question you could ask about how Palpatine could pull off making the entire galaxy his butt-monkey can be answered simply with, the Force. In otherwords, best McGuffin ever! Also the Sith were purposefully hiding themselfs from everyone.


As well as a whole host of other things, such as why didn't everyone in the universe freak out when Order 66 was implemented and how the hell did anyone let Jar Jar pass the Military Creation Act in replacement of Amidala, who had been leading the fight AGAINST the act.... Good god. Star Wars politics make me mad.
Because Palpatine was a smart dictator. He sold the massacre of Jedi as a just action for their rebellion against the Republic.





*Before the Battle of Yavin. The accepted way to recon time in the Star Wars universe is the destruction of the first Death Star in Episode IV became the new year zero.

[Subotan]

Well just dont get too attached to the point of view characters. Oh and for the love of god dont look up the tv tropes, personal experience here but if you see anything about an event called the red wedding press the back button, trust me it is worth not spoiling.
I'll keep it in mind; I have a lot of reading I want to get through first already, but It's on the list now :]


The Separatists (public) goals is to make a new pan-galactic state that is free of the problems the Republic had by 33 BBY* Corruption in the galactic Senate mostly. And they're not all bad guys. The Clone Wars cartoon has about 7 episodes that deal with the political side of things. The social and economic upheavals that the clone war either caused or made worse. That some of the seperatists were snarling supervillians but others were good people fed-up with the Republic bull-crap. However the snarling supervillians are in on the gag that their really there to give Palpatine a bogey-man to give him the leverage to total control of the Republic's government.
That never ever comes across in the films though, which is my point - sure the Expanded Universe has all these explanations, but if they want to justify stuff like this, it really should be in the film.


However all those politico's never had one VASTLY important advantage that Palpatine had. The Force. You know that thing that let's it's users see the future, read minds, control weaker minds, and throw lightning from your hands, and let a 65 yearold man wipe the floor with Samuel L. Jackson. Any question you could ask about how Palpatine could pull off making the entire galaxy his butt-monkey can be answered simply with, the Force. In otherwords, best McGuffin ever! Also the Sith were purposefully hiding themselfs from everyone.
Feels more like an ***-pull to me. Even Yoda, Yoda, doesn't suspect a thing until the last minute!


Because Palpatine was a smart dictator. He sold the massacre of Jedi as a just action for their rebellion against the Republic.
So, Palpatine says the Jedi, who have been linked to the Republic for 25,000 years are now suddenly traitors to the Republic, and then he dissolves the Republic. That doesn't seem like the kind of explanation which would convince people.

[lars573]

That never ever comes across in the films though, which is my point - sure the Expanded Universe has all these explanations, but if they want to justify stuff like this, it really should be in the film.
The Clone Wars cartoon isn't expanded universe. EU is a catch all term for Star Wars licensed media that Lucas has nothing to do with. The current Clone Wars CG cartoon series is a Lucas product (he's the EP and creative guy). Thus not EU.


Feels more like an ***-pull to me. Even Yoda, Yoda, doesn't suspect a thing until the last minute!
They don't who the other Sith Lord is until the last minute. But they did know he was out there. Yoda knew of the rule of 2.


So, Palpatine says the Jedi, who have been linked to the Republic for 25,000 years are now suddenly traitors to the Republic, and then he dissolves the Republic. That doesn't seem like the kind of explanation which would convince people.
It's fairly well used trope in Star Wars that Jedi are distrusted by the general public.

[Subotan]

The Clone Wars cartoon isn't expanded universe. EU is a catch all term for Star Wars licensed media that Lucas has nothing to do with. The current Clone Wars CG cartoon series is a Lucas product (he's the EP and creative guy). Thus not EU.
Ah OK, sorry I made a terminology error.


They don't who the other Sith Lord is until the last minute. But they did know he was out there. Yoda knew of the rule of 2.
OK sure, but they still don't realise it's Palpatine for over ten years, despite him wandering around amongst them for that length of time. Some wise Jedi...


It's fairly well used trope in Star Wars that Jedi are distrusted by the general public.
Again, that never really comes across in the films...

[lars573]

Ah OK, sorry I made a terminology error.
It's not a hard one to make.


OK sure, but they still don't realise it's Palpatine for over ten years, despite him wandering around amongst them for that length of time. Some wise Jedi...
Jedi aren't like Highlander immortals, force users can't feel each other if their close enough to each other. Look at EP.1 Qui-Gon guessed that Darth Maul was a Sith based on his being "well trained in the Jedi arts." And Palpatine's Sith order was built on hiding their true nature from the galaxy at large.


Again, that never really comes across in the films...
Which I think is why Lucas is now moving into TV.

[Prussian to the Iron]

WOW!!!!!!!! As I finished typing my long and well written response i got signed out, and now all my stuff is gone. Damnit I'm not doing it again, but basically I said that


Wait, let's stop here for a second. Before the Clone Wars, the Republic supposedly had no standing army. It was with the Clone Wars that Palpatine came to power, and it was with the Clone Wars that the military build-up of the Republic/Empire truly began. There's nothing quite wrong with relying on a huge Clone Army. Did the similarities in uniforms and equipment between the clone and imperials ever strike you as... odd? The clone troops were the roots of the imperial military forces.

in response to this, the Republic puts all its eggs in one basket with Kamino. The Empire has a standing army it can easily replenish with new recruits it can train and pay from all over. the Republic, if dealt a crippling blow at Kamino (aka planet destroyed/taken over by hostiles) would be completely destroyed by foreign invaders.

[Subotan]

Jedi aren't like Highlander immortals, force users can't feel each other if their close enough to each other. Look at EP.1 Qui-Gon guessed that Darth Maul was a Sith based on his being "well trained in the Jedi arts." And Palpatine's Sith order was built on hiding their true nature from the galaxy at large.

Still, it's a pretty inexcusable mistake for supposedly the wisest people in the galaxy to make.



Which I think is why Lucas is now moving into TV.
God help us all :O


in response to this, the Republic puts all its eggs in one basket with Kamino. The Empire has a standing army it can easily replenish with new recruits it can train and pay from all over. the Republic, if dealt a crippling blow at Kamino (aka planet destroyed/taken over by hostiles) would be completely destroyed by foreign invaders.
Never played Battlefront 2?

[lars573]

Still, it's a pretty inexcusable mistake for supposedly the wisest people in the galaxy to make.
In EP.3 they start to see that the dark side is around Palpatine.


God help us all :O
Well Clone Wars is mostly the product of the show runner producer Dave Feloni. He only makes the journey to the great Neckbeardus for final approval of his ideas.


Never played Battlefront 2?
Despite that games dubious play mechanics that single player story is really good.

[Megas Methuselah]

Again, that never really comes across in the films...

Actually, I can think of one minor incident that really struck a nerve for me. Remember in the second prequel film, Anakin and Obi kill that changer alien-woman in a bar after she tried killing Amidala in her sleep? It was right after they stabbed the hoe. People in the bar all were stunned and stared, but Anakin threatingly said, "This is Jedi business, go back to your drinks." The first thing that came to my mind was: holy shit, he sounds like an effin' cop. I would hate him, lol. Mind you, this is my personal experience with the scene; I'm sure this viewpoint would vary from person to person.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Never played Battlefront 2?

Yes, and if you're referring to the Kamino defense mission, that is based off an equal distribution of troops on each side. Realistically, if an enemy discovered the sole source of the Republic's war machine, you can bet that an enormous attack would be mounted on it.

[Greyblades]

Yeah but kamino is still the most important planet, save coriscant, the republic had at the time. The standing garrisson, not to mention the in-training clones forced onto the front line to defend thier home, would (or at least should, in these sorts of things it depends on the writer) be substantial enough to match all but the largest invasion forces.

[miotas]

Actually, I can think of one minor incident that really struck a nerve for me. Remember in the second prequel film, Anakin and Obi kill that changer alien-woman in a bar after she tried killing Amidala in her sleep? It was right after they stabbed the hoe. People in the bar all were stunned and stared, but Anakin threatingly said, "This is Jedi business, go back to your drinks." The first thing that came to my mind was: holy shit, he sounds like an effin' cop. I would hate him, lol. Mind you, this is my personal experience with the scene; I'm sure this viewpoint would vary from person to person.

This is the impression I got too, those bar patrons didn't seems too pleased to have a jedi there.

A few thoughts I had; If Palpatine knew about this outside threat and he truly had the best intrests of the galaxy at heart then why didn't he tell anyone rather than inciting a huge civil war, causing a massive loss of life and untold destruction, not to mention wiping out one of the galaxy's most elite fighting forces? Why can't they set up cloning opperations on other planets? And Palapatine kicked the :daisy: of any jedi he fought so the jedi probably couldn't detect him because he is clearly stronger than any of them.

[lars573]

Yeah but kamino is still the most important planet, save coriscant, the republic had at the time. The standing garrisson, not to mention the in-training clones forced onto the front line to defend thier home, would (or at least should, in these sorts of things it depends on the writer) be substantial enough to match all but the largest invasion forces.
Clone Wars season 3 episode 2, "ARC troopers." The Separatists attempt to mount a raid on the Kamino cloning facilities. But the Jedi know it's coming and send an extra Legion (the 501st) to beef up the garrison.

[Greyblades]

If Palpatine knew about this outside threat and he truly had the best intrests of the galaxy at heart then why didn't he tell anyone rather than inciting a huge civil war, causing a massive loss of life and untold destruction, not to mention wiping out one of the galaxy's most elite fighting forces?
Well... it is kinda established that the republic senate is full of incomptent idiots, seeing as jar jar of all people managed to get the clones past them. Maybe palpatine just didnt trust anyone with that sort of info. As for the jedi he's a sith, just because he has priorities doesnt mean he wouldn't jump at the chance to off them.


Clone Wars season 3 episode 2, "ARC troopers." The Separatists attempt to mount a raid on the Kamino cloning facilities. But the Jedi know it's coming and send an extra Legion (the 501st) to beef up the garrison.

Wait they're on thier 3rd season?... I'll be right back.

[Megas Methuselah]

the Republic puts all its eggs in one basket with Kamino. The Empire has a standing army it can easily replenish with new recruits it can train and pay from all over. the Republic, if dealt a crippling blow at Kamino (aka planet destroyed/taken over by hostiles) would be completely destroyed by foreign invaders.

Oh yea, no doubt. But you kind of missed my point. The Imperial military forces were born out of the clone army. The clone army is the start of the imperial forces. You can almost say that they are one and the same, except for the fact that the imperial forces are an expanded version of the clone forces.

It's like you're comdemning a child for being weak. Well, yeah, that's fair enough. But that child is still growing.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Oh yea, no doubt. But you kind of missed my point. The Imperial military forces were born out of the clone army. The clone army is the start of the imperial forces. You can almost say that they are one and the same, except for the fact that the imperial forces are an expanded version of the clone forces.

It's like you're comdemning a child for being weak. Well, yeah, that's fair enough. But that child is still growing.

I disagree though. That realy isn't the point; the origins of Imperial weapons and armor can come from anywhere thats all well and fine, but the fact remains that a cloned force coming entirely from one planet (which is the only planet to do so, likely because they want to keep their monopoly on the Republics war efforts and not share their technology) is not going to be as smart as a force not only made up from all over the galaxy, but oen that can be easily replenished despite just about any event.

If Kamino was destroyed by a planet destroying weapon (which, for some reason, just about every single person had apparently according to the wiki), the Republic woulda been f*****. royally. If the Empire had 100 planets destroyed, they would still be going strong.

[Gregoshi]

If Kamino was destroyed by a planet destroying weapon (which, for some reason, just about every single person had apparently according to the wiki), the Republic woulda been f*****. royally. If the Empire had 100 planets destroyed, they would still be going strong.

The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few - or the one, eh? :inquisitive: ...Wait, wrong movie franchise. :vulcan:

[Prussian to the Iron]

wait what?

[Subotan]

Of course, any mention of realism in Star Wars requires: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html