AI is never challenging

[Tore]

Hi guys

First I want to thank the EB team for a great mod.

I really like to play RTW and EB with ALX.exe, but I feel that the AI never turn into a real challenge. I got the same experience in vanilla RTW.

My goal is to conquer the world and kill all. But the AI factions just want to take some sectors and then they all seem to be happy with that. Why don't the AI try to conquer the world? Why don't they kill tiny factions living close to them? Why don't they try to kill me?

In the end or rather quick, I end up getting bored, no challenge, no fun.

I have tried many things to make the AI more challenging like:
4000000 start cash to some factions
A lot more units to some factions
Tweak diplomacy so they hate their neighbors
Made the rebels very weak and taken away walls so the factions can eat them up
Reduced my population
Reduced my start units

Is there anything else I can do to make the AI more challenging?
Is there anything I can do to make the AI factions want to conquer the world and kill me?

Thanks for any help

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Try VH/VH difficulty level (Very Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles).

Then play one of the Gallic factions, Aedui or Arveni - or alternatively one of the Greek factions, Koinon Hellenon or Macedon. You will be in constant battle right from the start.

And if that's too easy, try Pontos or Hayasdan.

[Lazy O]

Stop playing the AI. Play multiplayer.

[QuintusSertorius]

Stop playing the AI. Play multiplayer.

Not really a solution given there's no campaign MP.

[Cute Wolf]

Not really a solution given there's no campaign MP.

if only EB II comes now..... we can play hotseat campaigns...

or maybe you need to try play by mail?

[Lazy O]

You can play hoteseat. And you can get a friend who lives nearby have a lan party (good times :P). Only glitch is that you fight player vs player battles in normal MP mode and loading/reloading is a hassle if there is no powerful computre

[vollorix]

Conquering the world sounds a bit... "funny" to me, like the obsessive idea of the "Brain" ( from that cartoon ) to controll the world :)
All you have to do is to restrict yourself to either historical accurate behaiviour of the faction you´r playing, or set your own house rules, to make it challenging ( there are plenty ideas for such on this forums, or on "twc" ).
Competing with AI, which is allready more then 6 years old ( well, with AI at all, since you are human and got brains etc. ^^ ), is kind of wasting of time, imho.
No offence ment, of course.

[Lazy O]

If one takes offence from that statement it means he is not right in the upper story. :P

[Tore]

Try VH/VH difficulty level (Very Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles).
Thanks for the tip, maybe I should try that. I play on VH/M now. Anyway, it will only make the battles harder, and will not do anything to the campaign AI.


Then play one of the Gallic factions, Aedui or Arveni - or alternatively one of the Greek factions, Koinon Hellenon or Macedon. You will be in constant battle right from the start.

And if that's too easy, try Pontos or Hayasdan.
At the moment I like to play the Romans, but maybe later I can try this. Right now I need some tips on how to make the AI more challenging/aggressive :)


Conquering the world sounds a bit... "funny" to me, like the obsessive idea of the "Brain" ( from that cartoon ) to controll the world :)I see your point, but this is my attitude in all the computer games I play, civilization, Anno, King Arthur etc. I enjoy to be as good as I can, to maximize my playstyle so I can kick the AI of the map :D. But I want it to be a challenge, not a walk in the park.


All you have to do is to restrict yourself to either historical accurate behaiviour of the faction you´r playing, or set your own house rules, to make it challenging ( there are plenty ideas for such on this forums, or on "twc" ).I don't really find any fun in trying replicate history, and I don't like the idea of limiting myself to create a challenge. What I need is a more challenging/aggressive AI :)


Competing with AI, which is allready more then 6 years old ( well, with AI at all, since you are human and got brains etc. ^^ ), is kind of wasting of time, imho.
No offence ment, of course.This seem to be a problem in 90% of the games I play, the AI is terrible.

Btw, I play on VH/M and I only play the Romans. Sorry that I did not say that in my first post.

So back to my original question:
Is there anything I can do to make the AI more aggressive and challenging?

[Lazy O]

NO.

[QuintusSertorius]

You're playing one of the easiest factions (solid units which get even better, rich economy right in your heartland), don't care about historicity or roleplaying to self-limit, and you're complaining it's too easy?

There is no mod which can augment the AI. Playing on VH campaign difficulty is the only means of making them more aggressive. Have you tried the Win Conditions mini-mod? That might cause them to come for you if you tweak it right.

[Octavian I]

Changing factions should do the trick :).

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

The Romans have one of the easiest starting positions. Once Taras is taken, the Epirotes are driven out of Italy, and Rome then has lots of Eleutheroi cities between it and all it's neighbours. As long as you have Eleutheroi cities as a buffer between you and other factions, no one will attack you.

You then have to take all the Eleutheroi cities in Northern Italy and Sicily before you border the Aedui and Carthage. It's worth taking Massilia too, so you border the Arveni as well. Also take Segestica and Dalminion in Illyria, north of Epirus.

Even then, remember:

The Aedui and Arveni are generally too busy fighting each other to attack you.
Epirus is always pretty defensive until you attack them.
In Spain, the Lusotanns will give you a challenge later on, but only if you let them take all the Eleutheroi cities in Spain first.
Carthage is busy expanding in North Africa, and may not defend Corsica, Sardinia, and Lilibeo very hard because of that - Carthage only becomes really strong in North Africa itself.
The Getai are busy fighting Eleutheroi for quite a while, and may then become fairly passive.
Macedon and Koinon Hellenon are busy fighting each other and usually won't attack you unless you attack them first.

So Rome may not get really challenged for quite a while after the campaign begins. The really big challenges for Rome are the Sweboz, the Seleucids, and the Ptolemies, and it will take you a while to reach them.

Rome is not the best faction to play if you're a 'powergamer' and want a real challenge.

Unless... you fancy making things tough for yourself right at the start, by using the Force Diplomacy mod to give all your cities apart from Rome itself away to Epirus right at the beginning, so that you start the campaign only controlling Rome and nothing else! (That's without demolishing any buildings first, mind you, except for your government building.) Also disband half of your units, and force yourself to recruit a new army from scratch! Consider it a simulation of what would have happened if Pyrrhus of Epirus had WON his war with Rome in 275 BC, instead of losing it! This will make managing your economy tough to manage until you reconquer the 'lost' lands. Since you don't want to recreate actual history, why not try this idea and make yourself the savior of Rome?

[vollorix]

That´s actually a cool idea @ TMC^^

@Tore: i´m not sure you´re playing the "correct" mod in this case!
You´d probably be better suited with SPQR mod - i haven´t played it myself, but from what i´ve heard about it ( you can/should play only Romans in that mod since only that faction is specially adjusted for the player ) you´re going to have a lot of fun...
You might try RS ( Roma Surrectum 2 ) too, though i´m not up to date what the priorities of it are now, but the name should be ( at least a little bit of a ) program.
RTR ( FoE - Fate of Empires ) could fit your needs to - try and win the first battle as Rome against the Epirotes ( it´s actually possible on medium, but on h/vh it should be near impossible ).
But EB is all about the things i´ve listed in my first post above - and it is only the limiting engine, that allows you to play your style, things like:

- ability to build barracks and recruit units even with "military occupation only"
- too expensive navy, wich AI way too seldom uses, due to the costs and building times
- ability to recruit mercs with Romans whom they originally never imployed in history, but since mercenaries can not be made faction specific with RTW engine, it´s way too easy to grab them to reinforce your front lines or fill the garrisons of freshly conquered settlements
- ability to build all elite armies - none of the factions should be able to do this, but you, as player, can, of course, trick the system ( the same way the "big boys" in the game do it, once they got enough money in their coffers - both not realistic at all )
- massproducing cheap skirmishers/levy units with max. units in them to transport them in fresh conquered lands to allow your armies to move on
etc. etc.
I could go on, but you´d know it allready, i guess.

I know how the powergaming works, since EB is not the first mod i´m playing, but it´s also the actual reason why i choose to play EB - it´s all about selfrestriction and prefence of halfway decent historical appoach ( not slavishly following the history, but using a faction in the way it´s ment to be played by the EB dev. team ). I like to repeat/qoute a saying from a guy on this forums that EB is an experience, and not just a mod.

Good luck anyway ;)

[Tore]

thanks guys for all the reply's and for all the cool ideas.


You're playing one of the easiest factions (solid units which get even better, rich economy right in your heartland), don't care about historicity or roleplaying to self-limit, and you're complaining it's too easy?
hehe...yeah...I removed half my population before start and boosted Aedui and Makedonia with lots of units and 4000000,- start cash to make it harder. Aedui have over 20 regions in 255bc :D


There is no mod which can augment the AI. Playing on VH campaign difficulty is the only means of making them more aggressive. Have you tried the Win Conditions mini-mod? That might cause them to come for you if you tweak it right. yes I have...and it seem good. I have tweaked it so many factions have a lot of regions to hold, some up to 100 regions. Looking forward to see the results.


Changing factions should do the trick :).
Maybe not a bad idea after all, but I really love to play the Romans. The history of Rome and the principles they implemented in running a nation is very interesting. But maybe I should try Greek :).


Rome is not the best faction to play if you're a 'powergamer' and want a real challenge. ...I have learned that now...:)


Unless... you fancy making things tough for yourself right at the start, by using the Force Diplomacy mod to give all your cities apart from Rome itself away to Epirus right at the beginning, so that you start the campaign only controlling Rome and nothing else! (That's without demolishing any buildings first, mind you, except for your government building.) Also disband half of your units, and force yourself to recruit a new army from scratch! Consider it a simulation of what would have happened if Pyrrhus of Epirus had WON his war with Rome in 275 BC, instead of losing it! This will make managing your economy tough to manage until you reconquer the 'lost' lands. Since you don't want to recreate actual history, why not try this idea and make yourself the savior of Rome? hmmm...nice idea...that sound really cool. Maybe I also can use force diplomacy to give away some cities to different factions. I have it installed but I have no idea how to use it. Need to go and do some reading.


@Tore: i´m not sure you´re playing the "correct" mod in this case!
You´d probably be better suited with SPQR mod - i haven´t played it myself, but from what i´ve heard about it ( you can/should play only Romans in that mod since only that faction is specially adjusted for the player ) you´re going to have a lot of fun...
You might try RS ( Roma Surrectum 2 ) too, though i´m not up to date what the priorities of it are now, but the name should be ( at least a little bit of a ) program.
RTR ( FoE - Fate of Empires ) could fit your needs to - try and win the first battle as Rome against the Epirotes ( it´s actually possible on medium, but on h/vh it should be near impossible ). Thanks for the advices...and your probably right...maybe I like them better


I know how the powergaming works, since EB is not the first mod i´m playing, but it´s also the actual reason why i choose to play EB - it´s all about selfrestriction and prefence of halfway decent historical appoach ( not slavishly following the history, but using a faction in the way it´s ment to be played by the EB dev. team ). I like to repeat/qoute a saying from a guy on this forums that EB is an experience, and not just a mod. sounds nice...good that you have found what you like. I think I'm a little to much in the "total domination" mood I got when I played civilization IV a lot. Maybe that's not the best approach to RTW or EB. Anyway, I gona try out the other popular mods after playing trough this mod with a little more challenge :)

[Blxz]

Tore, your way of boosting the Ai is fairly limited. Since most factions bleed money every turn the 400,000Mnai boost you gave would only last for a few turns before it disappears and the standard script would kick in.

Your best option to boost the AI is to give them massive law bonuses to their core buildings (give it too all factions but yours) and then increase the movement of all campaign units by about 50-100%. Standard movement is 80 but I like to use about 140 or 150. This will allow the AI factions to make serious raids into neighbouring territories and stop them from being so passive.

The downside of this is that it favours super-factions more than minors. Rome and Carthage and lusotannia will dominate the west while the Arche Seleukeia WILL dominate the east and eventually the whole world. Still, you may find it the challenge you like if you leave the AS alone for about 20 or 30 years and build your own western roman empire first.

Good luck.

[Geticus]

Definitely boost the AI to Vh campaign and Hard battle, that is my personal favorite, Very hard battle just warps things out of all proportions IMO.

The Romans are one of the best factions in Europe, if you want more challenge I'd recommend, as others suggested, one of the Gallic factions, or maybe KH.

If you insist on playing the Romans, I'd recommend that you fill your armies with a more historical roster, i.e. armies during the 3rd century were mainly Romano-Latin, consisting of legionary infantry with 2 rorarii/velites, 2 hastati, 2 principes, 1 triarii ratios with little or no pedites extraordinarii. I believe it is historically very dubious that Italy produced any regular infantry outside of Rome that outclassed the best Roman infantry, so I basically reject the pedites extraordinarii concept especially during the 3rd century, later on it becomes more plausible. Also your main cavalry should be Roman equites, and not Equites Extraordinarii, Campanians or Tarentines given the mediocre loyalty of these city-states to the Roman cause during this period. The fact is that Rome relied primarily on Romano-Latin forces during the 3rd century and the Polybian period, and heavy recruitment of the speciously overpowered extraordinarii is to me both nonhistorical and too easy.

[QuintusSertorius]

Something else worth mentioning about giving money to the AI. If you're using the console, you can only give 30000 a time, even if you enter "add_money thrace, 400000", it will only give them 30000.

[antisocialmunky]

Don't declare war for 20/30 years in game on anyone and it will work better.

Play with 1/2 sized stacks (or 10 units + general).
You cannot set very high taxes.

[Tore]

Tore, your way of boosting the Ai is fairly limited. Since most factions bleed money every turn the 400,000Mnai boost you gave would only last for a few turns before it disappears and the standard script would kick in.I gave 4.000.000 to 6 factions from the start and give them money from the console whenever they get under 1.000.000 :). I also raised the wealth limit and reduced the wealth penalty.


Your best option to boost the AI is to give them massive law bonuses to their core buildings (give it too all factions but yours) and then increase the movement of all campaign units by about 50-100%. Standard movement is 80 but I like to use about 140 or 150. This will allow the AI factions to make serious raids into neighbouring territories and stop them from being so passive.
The law bonus is probably a good idea. Maybe extra movement can add some aggressiveness to the AI, but I don't like high movement, make the world feel very small :)


Good luck.
Thank you


Definitely boost the AI to Vh campaign and Hard battle, that is my personal favorite, Very hard battle just warps things out of all proportions IMO. I have to try that out some time.


If you insist on playing the Romans, I'd recommend that you fill your armies with a more historical roster Good idea, that can be away to limit myself, but It wont make the AI anymore aggressive :(


Something else worth mentioning about giving money to the AI. If you're using the console, you can only give 30000 a time, even if you enter "add_money thrace, 400000", it will only give them 30000. yes, I have noticed that :)


Don't declare war for 20/30 years in game on anyone and it will work better.

Play with 1/2 sized stacks (or 10 units + general).
You cannot set very high taxes. Ok, I can test some of this, but it will feel strange to limit myself and holding back to let the AI gain ground, but I guess that's the reality with EB

[QuintusSertorius]

Using historical compositions (no all-principes or all-pedites extraordinarii armies) and smaller stacks (max 15 units, better around 10) as mentioned will make battles harder.

It may also make the AI more aggressive; they tend to react on the basis of the size of garrisons/armies on their borders. If you dump a fort with a full stack next to them, they won't attack it, or come near. On the other hand a thinly-defended settlement is much more likely to be attacked.

[Tore]

Thanks to all the suggestions and help from all you guys. But after doing a lot of tweaking and testing I have not managed to make the AI more challenging or aggressive in any way that there is worth telling about.

My conclusion:

I have never experienced in a EB game that AI have killed another AI. This is really frustrating.

One example:
The Aedui almost completely stopped their progress when Arverni was left with one city. They reduced Arverni from 5 cities to 1 city in under 6 years, but for the last 20 years they have not killed Arverni. Audei have over 20 cities now. This is what's happening all over the game world no matter what I do.

In the original RTW game the AI kill each other without much problem, but in EB they seem not to be able to do that.

I'm sitting here with only 9 cities and 2 armies and get attacked from time to time by Aedui and Makedonia. I have waited for over 100 years for the AI to grow strong and let them conquer the world, but they don't do that. They eat up most of the rebel towns after I removed the walls, but the second they get close to another faction, they almost completely stop their progress.

I have given the Ai units, exp, cash, cities, reduced their neighbors, reduced the rebels, killed their neighbors for them and made sure I'm not allied with anyone. I have decreased my own population, decreased number of start cities and reduced what units I can recruit. But nothing helps. It make it harder for me to get things up and running, but the AI never turn into a real challenge. They mostly just sit there, taking a few cites from time and losing a few cities.

I thought that EB should be more challenging than the original RTW, but it is the other way around. I just going to finish this EB game, and then I think I shall try another campaign mod as someone already suggested.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and tips, have fun guys.

[Blxz]

Well, try the movement bonus then. The only thing you haven't tried and if you are going to quit the mod after this then you lose nothing from trying it. If you are worried that you will be able to move too far then just limit yourself to half range...not that double standard movement is ahistorical, only deep raids behind enemy lines are.

If you have seen my thread where the AS has nearly taken over the world you can see the effect of a high law bonus and high AI movement. I suggest you try everything suggested before you discount the mod.

[-42-]

You're playing as Rome. You should try a game as one of the one-province factions. And I can't see how Vanilla is more challenging, I remember conquering the world spamming nothing but equites and hastati.

[Geticus]

I play EB nowadays with the BI exe. mod, it makes the computer a lot more aggressive navally. But some factions are pretty aggressive over time, recently in a game playing as Sweboz, the Romans besieged the Arverni in two cities at the same time with two large armies, and conquered both in the same turn, vanquishing the Arverni. Hellas often sees someone dying, often Epeiros or Makedonia, I have seen the Getai expanding effectively into Skythia and beating the Sarmatians back, other games sometimes the Ptolemaio or Seleukids start spamming elite phalanxes and destroying one faction after another. I have also seen the Lusotannan conquer most of Iberia and push into Gaul and vanquish the Arverni. So yeah you might mod the exe. file to improve the AI aggressions.

[Havok.]

I have never experienced in a EB game that AI have killed another AI. This is really frustrating.
In the original RTW game the AI kill each other without much problem, but in EB they seem not to be able to do that.


Hmmm, in my campaing, i've already seen AI destroying each other, till this day i've seen Baktria getting destroyed by AS, Macedonia by Epeiros/KH; but thats it lol two times only


i think i prefer this way, i hate seeing factions being destroyed.

[CashMunny]

I see AI factions being destroyed by AI all the time, Hayasdan, Pontus, Epeiros, Makedonia, Baktria, Saka, Pahlava, Aedui/Arverni, and Lusotannan are all likely candidates for being destroyed in my games, and usually either the Arche destroys all the rebel factions, (Pontus,Hayasdan,Pahlava,Baktria) and holds on to Syria + Anatolia, or they completely collapse, and get eaten up piecemeal by the surrounding factions, and destroyed by 150 B.C. I rarely see Sweboz have any trouble because they have such a buffer between any faction and them until they expand and become powerful, and the Romani and Qarthadastim/Ptolemies are too resilient to really face any problems until much later, and if Carthage decides to go west, it takes all of Iberia, or if it fights the Ptolemies, the Ptolemies almost always hold them for no more than 20 years before losing Kyrene, Augila and sometimes even the Egyptian heartland by 200 B.C. and Carthage almost always holds on to Sicily unless the Romani deal with the Cisalpine Gauls and Epierotes quite early. Greece is usually decided by who wins the first 20 years of the war, with either Koinon Hellenon deprived of the mainland, or barely clinging on to sparta and Rhodes, or successfully holding Athens, Chalkdike, and Korinthos, and usually the Epierotes taking all of the rest and destroying the Makedones, or the Makedones crush Pyrrhus, and take all or most of Greece and Epeiros, but usually not Rhodes, and Epeiros either goes north into Getai, gets stuck inbetween Romani and Makedones in Dalminion, or they get destroyed and the Makedones gobble up Pontus. Sauromatae either gobble up Getai and Hayasdan, and Saka knows better than to betray them, or they get pummeled by Hayasdan, stalemated by Getai in Skythia province, and eventually lose the eastern provinces to Saka. Baktria has trouble in India for about 50 years sometimes, but they always seem to either expand nicely or die in a blaze of glory, just like historically would have been the two options. Pahlava unfortunately is usually nothing more than a nuisance to the Arche until the Baktrians/Ptolemies have already gobbled up Anatolia and Persia proper, but they do sometimes take Hyrcania and Parthaia, and successfully fight the Arche to a stalemate, contributing to their defeat. I see plenty of action in my games, and it almost always follows this meticulous pattern to some extent, so maybe you need some mods or you might just be unlucky.

[QuintusSertorius]

Yeah, the "AI never kill each other" complaint is a little bizarre. If anything it happens far too fast for my tastes, AI Pontos or Pahlava only need a string of bad turns to be wiped out.

[Atraphoenix]

At least it tries to challenge me :laugh4:

Check this :hmg::hmg::hmg:



THE GREAT SIEGE OF DAMASKOS - ONE CITY - 4 BATTLES - THOUSANDS OF DEAD - AND MY ERAN SPAHBED SAVES THE DAY!
THANKS GOD IT DID NOT CTD!

https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9712/rometwalx20110128002956.jpg
https://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6782/rometwalx20110128003150.jpg
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1829/rometwalx20110128003155.jpg
https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3163/rometwalx20110128005551.jpg
https://img339.imageshack.us/img339/503/rometwalx20110128005558.jpg
https://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6001/rometwalx20110128011008.jpg
https://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2791/rometwalx20110128011215.jpg
https://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9006/rometwalx20110128011224.jpg
https://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8269/rometwalx20110128012624.jpg
https://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9161/rometwalx20110128012816.jpg
https://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9222/rometwalx20110128014224.jpg
https://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8242/rometwalx20110128014442.jpg


That was my last battle with AI that I have not used cataphracts to help AI. NO MORE MERCY! :laugh4:
Mate, you should try a nigh impossible faction Romani is boring.....

P.S. thanks for info on images I had forgotten many things

[Ludens]

If the images does not appear...

The address you use for the images is actually the website containing the image, not the image itself. The [ IMG ]-command can't do anything with that. For the link to the actual images click "link to share image" and use the "Direct" link.

[Atraphoenix]

The address you use for the images is actually the website containing the image, not the image itself. The [ IMG ]-command can't do anything with that. For the link to the actual images click "link to share image" and use the "Direct" link.

thanks I have not used imageshack for a long while.