Need Some Help in my KH campaign.

[Valion]

Hello Everyone!

I need some help regarding my game, i am 22 years into the game and I've expanded overseas quite a bit and created a Spartan led Greek Empire.

From Massilia in the west down to Kyrene and Alexandria in the South and up to Ipsos in the East.
https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/Teutonia10/2-1.jpg?t=1294971156
If some of you wonder why i took Alexandria its because the Seleukids captured the city and overran the Ptolemaos and i had to intervene or risk the Grey Death from becoming "too" strong later on.

But here now comes my dilemma, after years of fighting i cant help but find myself annoyed by these little buggers:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_argyraspidai.gif http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/hellenistic_infantry_argyraspidai_INFO.jpg http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/greek_infantry_chaeonian_agema_INFO.jpg
They are just soooooo hard to kill!!! Specially the ones fielded by the Seleukids!! they constantly send me an army with 2-5 Argyraspides' and some of them have triple silver chevs that make them hard as bricks to route even when you flank/surround them! I like the challenge but in the long run sooner or later i think i'l be overwhelmed :embarassed:
I hope the AI isn't smart enough to send a all Argyraspides army haha.

So my question is, as the Hellens what can i do to counter them better or to KILL them faster? I do employ the Hammer and Anvil tactic but most of my heavy cavalry is busy in Asia Minor.

Here are the units i field in Egypt.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_hoplitai.gif https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_peltastai.gif https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_epilektoi_hoplite.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_thorakitai.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_ekdromoi_hoplitai.gif https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_cretan_archers.gif https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_lonchophoroi.gif

I also wanted to ask as the Hellens what assault infantry is available for me to recruit? atm i use the Thorakitai Hoplitai to fill in that role since they have swords and do prove useful in flanking phalangites. the Thorakitai are also proving to be very good but other than those 2 the only unit i can really rely on is the Epilektoi Hoplitai. But they are too few in numbers and rather expensive.

Thanks and Cheers!

[jirisys]

Ok buddy, KH expert here :clown:

First off, we most of forumgoers know most of the units by the names, don't need to put the images for them.

I can tell they are Argyraspides and Chaeonian Agema.
And you are using Hoplitai, Peltastai, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai, Ekdromoi Hoplitai, Toxotai Kretikoi and Lonchoporoi Hippeis.

What you need to do, has two different options:

First off you can either make a very large (but thin) line of soldiers, like this (If you have a cav general replace a Lonchoporoi, if an infantry, a peltastai or thorakitai):

|=Epilektoi=||=Hoplitai=||=Hoplitai=||=Ekdromoi=||=Thorakitai=||=Thorakitai=||=Thorakitai=||=Thoraki tai=||=Ekdromoi=||=Hoplitai=||=Hoplitai=||=Epilektoi=|
---------/========\-----------------------------|===Peltastai===||==Peltastai==||==Peltastai==||===Peltastai===|-------------------------------/========\-----
-------/=Lonchoporoi=\----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/=Lonchoporoi=\----
---------------------------|=====Kretikoi=====|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|=====Kretikoi=====|------------------------

When the phalanx attacks (Most likely they will attack the flanks), get rid of any other spear infantry with your Thorakitai, Peltastai and other available units, when that is done, Take the cavalry to destroy swordsmen, and flank attack with the Thorakitai and Peltastai (If they turn around, stop them and put them on guard mode, then attack with your hoplites) then bring the cavalry, you're done with them.

If they attack your center, hold them with guard mode, let the hoplites take care of the spearmen and the cavalry of the swordsmen, charge the hoplites, then the cavalry, and those cowards (being a greek arrogant strategos here, I really do like makedonian phalanxes... As long as they are greek, ptolemaic, pontic or armenian) will be slaughtered like cows... Wait... No... Cows are harder to kill, like carrots, they'll be slaughtered like carrots :clown:

If it's phalanx only, then lure them to the center, then crush them with spears.

~Jirisys (Nice gaming)

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Or a bit simpler solution.. Conquer the Crimean cities and bring horse arches to fight them. I did id in my KH game and it was quite easy to take out all these phalanx armies. It's not historically correst but this is EB where we make our own history! ~;)

[Fluvius Camillus]

Wait until you get Koinon Phalanx, have them distract them, assault them from the rear with Thorakitai Hoplitai/Thraikioi Peltastai.

And the most important yet, you need Greek Noble Cavalry! They are the only cavalry with some good charge power. Repeated charges bring them down.
~Fluvius

[Ca Putt]

or prodromoi

anyway, aslong as you cannot train phalangitai yourself you'll have to rely on hoplitai in guard mode(epilektoi when you like to waste your money and haploi when you're of the cheap kind ;) ) to hold the enemy phalanxes in place (all of them) while all your other units can flank them, one by one.personally i prefer to use very un-spartan tactics when dealing with phalanxes, as i tend to split the enemy forces up that I gain local superiority and can overwhelm them while beeing outnumbered actually.

on elite phalanxes:
the tips above(and of most other posts) deal with phalangitai in general. elite phalanxes basicly are dealt with like other phalanxes but also regarding the common weaknesses of other elite infantry - Axemen/Slingers, rear heavy cav charges and letting them chase weak units. so as EB veteran you should know the basics.
YET there is one other weakness:
RECRUITMENT
Agyraspidai can only be recruited in Pella Tessaly Antiochia Kypros seleukeia charax babylon and some regions you already hold. although mesopotamia is out of reach(for now) Kypros and antiochia make a fine target for amphibic raids wich judging from your expansion are well withinyour possibilities. afaik most agxraspidai come from Antiochia so captureing kypros and raiding antiochia regulary can have drastic effects on Seleukian troop selection.
while epiros and makedon need some more intence treatment aka, killing them :(
that way you'll face far less Elite phalanxes but even more levy, kleucheroi and pezhetairoi phalangites which may prove more boring and annoying but much less challengeing ;)

on shock troops. no the KH does not really have shock troops. thorakitai and reformed hoplites maybe some hoplite variants (like syracusians or massilians) could qualify as shock inf but to be blunt every melee inf you can get in galatia is better suited for this job than the KH homeboys. so get some celts or tracians or even infantry from anatolia for that job.

[Octavian I]

I have the same problem, and slightly bigger as i barely have cavalry now. Which Lvl Barracks will you need to create slightly normal shock cavalry? As enemy cavalry flank me and destroy my Merc Kretans and Slingers (I see now that i should use Guard mode and no Skirmishing, that should limit some of the damage they cause). And which level barracks do you need for Kretans? As i only have Mercenaries now.

[Burebista]

How to kill elite Phalanxes?

several options : Slingers from the back work wonders. Horse archers do the trick. Merc phalanx + flanking works too . Some javelins in the back are ok too. Galatian tindanodae are also a nice option. Merc elephants are just op:) ur choice really.

As someone else said before , raid antioch . That should solve most probs. Although , ur main problem is the spread of your empire. Multiple fronts = multiple troubles

[vollorix]

How about some iberian mercs with "ap'" swords and javelines? You own Massila, it should be no problem to make a small jorney to the south west and hire some of them, or you take Emporion and get some iberian units of your own. Kind of cultural exchange for your stretched empire? :)

[QuintusSertorius]

You need some mercs to balance your force. One or two units of mercenary pezehtairoi to hold your centre/pin down opposing phalanxes without getting butchered. Some Curepos are very flexible light-medium cavalry (javelins and an AP lance, awesome speed and stamina).

[Lazy O]

Skirmish. Abuse the kretikoi and dont engage AT ALL until ALL youre missile are spent. Yes this includes arrows javelins and poop.

[NIKOMAHOS]

I suppose you are in war with Makedonia and you have ally Epeiros.
I always start this campaign destroying the MAK's. Even conquered the world in VH/M with the Koinon Hellenon.

https://img208.imageshack.us/i/kh2.png/
https://img208.imageshack.us/i/kh2.png/

After the MAK's my target is Epeiros. Having the Balkans and already the western Asia minor, Pontos and Getai will be an easy target. Don't allow AS to be very strong. If you are producing money make a few presents, some thousands Mnai, to Pahlava and Baktria. Their HA's will take big parts frot the Grey.

Wait until reforms happen, about in 235 BC and then you could have 4 Phalangitai in every full stack, 2 sphendonetai, 1-2 Toxotai Kretikoi, 2 Hippeis (I use 1 prodromoi and 1 Hippeis or even Thessaloi), 1 Family Member (with his Epilektoi oplite budyguards) probably one Spartan, 4 hoplitai, 2 Thrakioi peltastai(their romphaia is great and they don't cost) Thorakitai and/or Ekdromoi could fill the remaining gaps.

NIKOMAHOS.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Btw, I presume you play battles with medium difficulty?

[Valion]

Thanks guys for all the advice! It is much appreciated.

And nice empire NIKOMAHOS! a :balloon2: for you! Hoping to get there too but not as fast :)




As someone else said before , raid antioch . That should solve most probs. Although , ur main problem is the spread of your empire. Multiple fronts = multiple troubles
I'd rather not raid antioch i want them to constantly attack me with phalangites i just want to be better able to defeat them. Aside from managing settlements i love constantly fighting :)

Actually i spread my empire on purpose for the simple reason i want wars i have 4 standing Armies, Homeland and 3 Expeditionary the strongest is in Asia i also control the Aegean Sea with 3 fleets my strongest that include 2 Tetrereis is stationed in Alexandrea. I use my navy to transport reinforcements to any of my frontiers within 2 turns so i never run out of manpower and my economy earns me 15-20k a turn so i actually use wars to control having too much mnai :laugh4:

How about some iberian mercs with "ap'" swords and javelines? You own Massila, it should be no problem to make a small jorney to the south west and hire some of them, or you take Emporion and get some iberian units of your own. Kind of cultural exchange for your stretched empire? :)
I plan to take Emporion in 2 years time, i like taking things slow thats why i didn't kill-of the Makedonians and Epirote.

You need some mercs to balance your force. One or two units of mercenary pezehtairoi to hold your centre/pin down opposing phalanxes without getting butchered. Some Curepos are very flexible light-medium cavalry (javelins and an AP lance, awesome speed and stamina).
Will take your advice Quintus but atm the AI always recruits all if not the best mercs in the area. atm I am exporting Greek Noble cavalry to Alexandrea.


Btw, I presume you play battles with medium difficulty?

If that question is for me then yes :) i play at VH/M the normal setting for EB i think.


Oh and Btw can anyone tell me how i can make the AI active again? I mean the Casse arent doing anything for 22 years! just sitting there haha and the Averni are also Idle doing nothing ever since they became a protectorate of Roma, for some reason the Aedui are also being lazy doing nothing! the only ones that are constantly expanding are the Karthagenians, Seleukds, Sweboz and Getai. The Romans are also being kicked in arse by the Epirote that still own Taras and are actually besieging Capua Lol.

[NIKOMAHOS]

Thank you for my first Baloon Valion.

It took me about 7 months to get as far as Susa-Ekbatana in this campaign. 136BC is about 544 seasons and many thousands of battles.

I can remember one with my 4.000Kh against 3 Roman armies with 12.000men near Syracousai......

I should have kept some photos of those dead marian Legionairies and my captured eagles..... The ground was red............


NIKOMAHOS

[QuintusSertorius]

Will take your advice Quintus but atm the AI always recruits all if not the best mercs in the area. atm I am exporting Greek Noble cavalry to Alexandrea.

The AI recruiting everything is a facet of playing on VH campaign difficulty (which means every AI faction gets 10000 mnai every turn - the very reason I don't play on that difficulty). But those two are cheap and common, not the "best" but very useful and cost-effective in the hands of a human player.


Oh and Btw can anyone tell me how i can make the AI active again? I mean the Casse arent doing anything for 22 years! just sitting there haha and the Averni are also Idle doing nothing ever since they became a protectorate of Roma, for some reason the Aedui are also being lazy doing nothing! the only ones that are constantly expanding are the Karthagenians, Seleukds, Sweboz and Getai. The Romans are also being kicked in arse by the Epirote that still own Taras and are actually besieging Capua Lol.

Seems to vary from game to game which faction is aggressive and which not. Are you using the Victory Conditions mod? That tends to direct the AI's mind toward various places.

[NIKOMAHOS]

https://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1641/kh1j.png

A small problem earlier. Hope it is solved now.

NIKOMAHOS

[QuintusSertorius]

No offense, Nikomahos, but that looks like a distinctly un-fun army to use. Full stack (problematic in and of itself) with too many missile units (loads of slingers, archers and horse archers) - twelve of twenty are ranged.

[moonburn]

crimeia you get an excellent archer the bosphoran heavy´s in kreete you got the kretikoi in mainland greece you get the throrokitai´s and the rest

get some heavy cavarly either xistophoroi from sicily or the thessalians and the massalians and syracusan hoplites are also very usefull (particulary the massilians with their longswords for flanking are very versatile)

as for the elite phalanxs ranged missiles on their back then flank them on both sides with sword equiped units (if you can romphaians that you can recruit in tylis are amazing) and finish them off with a single powerfull noble cavalry on the back and they should crumble

you got acess to strong infantry strong missile units (rhodians and kretikoi) very decent cavlary and then horse archers and the bosphoran heavy archer in crimeia massilians and syracusan hoplites iberian units in emporion (and arse) and 3 extremly powerfull thakian units so you just have to learn how to use them combined and you can´t loose

[NIKOMAHOS]

I Never use 8 missile units plus 4 horse archers. Maximum missile units in my full stacks is 4-5.
After conquering Susa, I built MIC in order to be able to reqruit army to defend against numerus fulll stacks Seleucids sent against me. The first units I was able to reqruit were the eastern slingers and the heavy persian archers...
Furthermore I puted inside the city the 4 HA to protect them. They have just returned from Caucasus where they were reorganized.

After saving Susa I will use 4Kh Phalanghitai, 1 Rhodian and 1 Eastern Slinger, 1 Heavy Persian Archer, 1HA, 2Thorakitai, the Galatian Swordsmen, 2 Prodromoi (you can see them returning from Seleucia). I will complete the stack with Greek hoplites.

NIKOMAHOS

[Paltmull]

Recruit Anatolian and/or Cappadoccian hillmen from your provinces in Asia Minor. Haven't used them much myself, but from what I've heard they are great flankers. High lethality and AP bonus. They're cheap too. I'm not sure whether they're good enough to flank elite phalanxes but it might be worth trying.

[QuintusSertorius]

Recruit Anatolian and/or Cappadoccian hillmen from your provinces in Asia Minor. Haven't used them much myself, but from what I've heard they are great flankers. High lethality and AP bonus. They're cheap too. I'm not sure whether they're good enough to flank elite phalanxes but it might be worth trying.

They don't have the morale to flank elite phalanxes. That's their only weakness.

[vollorix]

But they have good stamina, and if you happen to use experienced units, they´ll beat the hell out of any phalanx which is exhausted and allready depleted. Send them in too soon, or allow the enemy skirmishers decimate them, and they´ll die like flies. It´s all matter of timing, i´d say. The axemen, especially Eastern and Cappadocians, got several abilities making them a very versatile units:
ap weapons
good/very good stamina
missile weapons
All three used for the shock attack on a weakened elite unit make them very unique, while they´re still able to perform other duties guarding city walls, chasing down fleeing enemies etc.
In my current Pontic campaign i´ve established a "3 chevron" experienced troop production in Mazaka and under the command of a good general they make quite an impact ( though i do not extensively make use of them all the time ).