What is the historic main line infantry for Koinon Hellenon?

[Sirex1]

I have started an Koinon Hellenon camping which is going well, but i haven't got the infastructe to get good soldiers. So i decided to play a custom game. So when building my army i realise i have no idea what the main line infatry unit is.

First i thought of Iphikratous Hoplitai, but apparently not.
"Prior to that, even Athenai and Thebai - who were the least reluctant to accept the changes - were not eager to accept the changes and didn't begin to field the newer hoplitai in very large numbers. Some poleis such as Sparte refused to accept the new equipment, "

Okay, how about Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai then?
But the EB notes on them say some city-states started to experiment with them and they seem not to be so popular amongst the greek.

Not that either then, how about Greek Classical Hoplites?
"but the appearance of the Peltastoi made them more vulnerable than before and highlighted the shortcomings of the phalanx, and the rise of Makedonia in the north and its phalangitai, became the decline of the "classical" hoplites being fielded in large numbers. However, variants of the hoplites were succesfully adapted by various Hellenic powers, like the Ekdromoi & Thorakitai Hoplitai. And even after the wars of Alexandros and those of his successors, some poleis and smaller communities still fielded contingents of hoplitai, who were trained and fought in the same fashion as the hoplitai of old."
Apparently not those either.

Thureophoroi? No they exist between main line and skirmishers.
Thorakitai? To expensive and not used much historicly.
Thorakitai Hoplitai ? To expensive.

Questions:
1. What exactly historic would be main line infantry for a combined Koinon Hellenon (combined atheninans and sparta and some minor allies army) ally army? Every option i have seams to be hated by everyone.
2. How would a historic army look in lest say 12.5-17.5 k custom/multiplayer EB Koinon Hellenon army?
3. Why does every potential Koinon Hellenon main line unit loses to Principes? Even classical Hoplites get destroyed which i have a hard time beliving.

I am very interested to know more about Greek warfare in this period!

[moonburn]

mix all of those together and you get a greek alliance batle line
as for classical hoplites loosing to princeps ... put them on guardmode and they´ll last forever and just micromanage your victory by continously removing their weaker or smaller units and if you pull that right you´ll still have time to destroy the princeps altough my main hate when fighting against romans are the elite italian units with the kopis ...

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Remember what Koinon Hellenon is. It's an alliance of independent Greek city states.

So there is no 'Koinon Hellenon Army' as such, organisationally speaking. Instead there's a Spartan army, an Athenian army, a Rhodian army, a Corinthian army, a Kretan army, a Syracusan army, etc, etc, etc, one army for each city KH controls. Each army with it's own individual style and favoured kinds of units.

So Sparta favours the old Spartan hoplites in its battle line. Athens might favour Iphikratous Hoplitai. Rhodes might favour Classical Hoplites supplemented by Thureophoroi because of an emphasis on missiles (but outside of Rhodes itself, rich Rhodes relies on hiring mercenaries). Corinth might favour Phalangitai because of the earlier Macedonian influence on them (later supplemented by a few Thorakitai Hoplitai). Syracuse favours it's own Syracusan Hoplites, etc.

The city states of Koinon Hellenon are joining their armies together to fight the Macedonians not because they WANT to, but because they HAVE to in order to survive, since each army is not yet strong enough to fight alone. The city states don't WANT to join together to form a united Greek nation. What they want is to go back to the old days of 150 years ago when Sparta, Athens, Corinth etc were strong and powerful in their own right, not just as part of an alliance. The dream of each city state is to become so powerful that its army can operate in the field alone against its enemies - just the Spartan army on its own, just the Athenian army on its own, etc - in separate 'stacks' instead of one united 'stack'.

[bobbin]

Depends on the time as well, Thureos armed troops would have been in relativley low numbers at EB's start date and then only as Thureophoroi, Thorakitai came along later.

[antisocialmunky]

What about the 'heavy peltast' type troops? Weren't they somewhat the precursor of the more heavily armed Thureos armed troops?

Also, the description of the Iphikratous Hoplitai seems to imply that some combination of it and the classical hoplite were in vogue. I'm really glad that KH will have some reforms for equipment in EBII to clear things up. I also hope that the stamina stats will be more balanced for KH. Its perhaps the greatest KH weakness because when compared to the Roman equivalents, KH elites have garbage stamina on their heavily armed and elite units which make them completely un-usuable against basically everything... Even their lighter armed units like the Iphikratous Hoplitai which have comparable equipment and need to be mobile has stats that make them hard to use effectively. :-\

[bobbin]

Not sure, my comment was referring to the use of the shield, it was introduced to the Greek world during the Galatian migrations which were less than 10 years before our start date, so only a few had adopted it.

[antisocialmunky]

Will the units in EBII feature mixed-shield types?

[MeinPanzer]

The answer to your question depends entirely on the time period. This is the general progression for the main players of the Koinon (the Achaean, Boeotian, and, to a lesser extent, Aetolian leagues):

Before 279, the infantry were regular hoplites.

Some time between 279 and 255, the hoplites seem to have been equipped with javelins as well as thyreoi instead of Argive shields.

From then on, thyreos-bearing hoplites would have continued in use until the states of Greece began to adopt the Macedonian phalanx, beginning in 250 around when the Boeotians reformed their army.

[antisocialmunky]

What about afterwards like when Rome destroyed Corinth?

[Cute Wolf]

historically, they use Hoplitai Haploi everywhere :grin:

afterall, if not forcing Akontistai to go on melee...

[Maeran]

If you are playing as KH and the Romans take Corinth, you are playing really badly.

[CashMunny]

If you are playing as KH and the Romans take Corinth, you are playing really badly.

Lol he was saying historicaly, and yeah, true, but if they perform a full-stack naval invasion (seen it with Alex already after a few days since I switched) and catch you off guard, unless you cheat you might lose it for a few turns, conceivably, because your troops would be concentrated on the front lines in Makedonia or Asia Minor.

[Ibrahim]

What about afterwards like when Rome destroyed Corinth?

there was not army-greece was occupied by the Romans at that time. it was a province from then on to almost the end of the Byzantine empire.

[antisocialmunky]

there was not army-greece was occupied by the Romans at that time. it was a province from then on to almost the end of the Byzantine empire.



Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx)Edit Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx)

Some Hoplitai were able to afford better equipment and devote more time to warfare. Much of their equipment is similar to the less wealthy Hoplitai, with one exception. They were often armored in mail, which gave them better protection against most weapons in relation to the linothorax and leather used by other Hoplitai. The Thorakitai Hoplitai are among the best infantry in the world, if tactically inflexible due to the slowness of movement of an armored phalanx.

Historically, the Thorakitai Hoplitai (heavy hoplites) were the elite of most Hellenic armies, and tended to make up only a small percentage of the forces in the army. They were often deployed on the right flank of a Hellenic phalanx because the right side was more vulnerable than the left in phalanx combat. A hoplite was armed with his shield on his left arm and his spear gripped in his right one. Because of this the left side of a phalanx formation was naturally less vulnerable and the best soldiers were placed on the right flank with the logic being that elite troops would fight longer in dangerous situations than green or more poorly equipped soldiers. The Thorakitai Hoplitai were mostly grizzled mercenary veterans who had amassed enough wealth for higher quality panoplia or wealthy citizens who had a penchant for warfare. They were almost never used against the Romaioi because the Hellenikai poleis mainly accepted Romaios hegemony without serious struggle. The exception was Korinthos, whose Thorakitai Hoplitai broke the Romaioi left flank during the battle for the city, but were checked and then promptly cut down by Romaioi legionaries and Noumidoi mercenaries enveloping them on three sides.

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Corinth_%28146_BC%29

[bobbin]

They thought you meant after Corinth had been destroyed. I don't know the answer myself, I'm afraid.