[History/Sources] What evidence of linothorax use by "Greeks"?

[QuintusSertorius]

I've been having a discussion about the linothorax/linen armour elsewhere. It's pretty ubiquitous as the armour of choice for many units in EB, and I trust our historians to know what they're talking about.

In the conversation I've been having, someone claimed that the linothorax was the armour of "foreigners" and Greeks themselves never wore it. That there aren't any sources which have Greeks in linen armour, rather they preferred leather.

What sources are there saying Greeks used linen armour?

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

When you say 'Greeks', I assume you mean 'southern Greeks'? Athenians, Spartans, Epirotes, Corinthians, Thebans etc.

Not including Macedonians, Thessalians, or Thracians, who weren't considered 'Greek' by the Athenians, but Hellenised barbarians - or the later Seleucids, Ptolemies, Baktrians, etc, who aren't 'Greek' either but 'Hellenic'.

[antisocialmunky]

Art mostly like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Akhilleus_Patroklos_Antikensammlung_Berlin_F2278.jpg

People may have been drawing historic figures in contemporary armor much like these 1600 depictions of Alexander:

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/viewer/viewer.html?http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/altdorfer/battle-issus/luxfiathttp://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/altdorfer/battle-issus/detail2.jpgluxfiat752luxfiat1000

[Vaginacles]

I think it was also worn by Ajax the lesser in the Illad, described in book 2

[Delta146]

I believe there has also been some argument that linothorax was not glued linen, but actually leather and called a spolas. I don't really have an opinion about this as I have not seen any of the evidence, but it is a major thing in ancient Greek reenactment, so I have seen quite a few arguments both ways.

[abou]

Sorry to take so long to reply. I meant to earlier, but every time I went to type I would just sigh and tell myself to do it later. It's just one of those things.

The linothorax is originally described in the Illiad -- Book 2, apparently. There have been two finds that sort of corroborate the layered and glued linen theory. I don't know how extensive the analysis on them is though. If you go to the RAT fora, there is quite a heavy debate on it between dogmatists being against it and those who are more flexible (all of them are nice guys and always good to have a conversation with so don't be afraid to take a look). The main reason for being against the layered linen is the lack of robustness of glues available at the time. I'm inclined to be more accepting of the glues, which could be made from practically any animal carcass, whether it is rabbit or fish. Hell, these are guys that managed to make advanced calenders, scientific discoveries, and recognize a form of heliocentrism without telescopes. They could probably make glue.

Anyway, the "linothorax" -- or some type of armor -- was clearly popular since it shows up in art everywhere. And since it was so popular, it must have worked well. So the assumption is that whatever is on those vases, reliefs, coins, etc. is probably our linothorax. It's just a matter of whether it was made from linen or not. Some suggest hardened leather. Others suggest leather covered in linen. Because of this, for the EB2 unit descriptions, I have been replacing the term "linothorax" with "tube & yoke cuirass" for pedantic reasons. Basically, being safe rather than sorry.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks, abou. Either way, to suggest that Greeks didn't wear a "tube and yoke cuirass" armour is rather silly, as I thought.

[abou]

You're welcome. It's certainly what I'm here for.

[Delta146]

RAT is exactly what I was referring to when I posted, heh. Thanks for the information.

[MeinPanzer]

Thanks, abou. Either way, to suggest that Greeks didn't wear a "tube and yoke cuirass" armour is rather silly, as I thought.

I don't think anyone denies that the Greeks used the T&Y cuirass - there is plentiful iconographic evidence for that. The problem is what material those depictions dating to after the Archaic period (this debate only really applies to that time, since we know from Homeric literature and early Greek poetry that linen cuirasses were definitely worn by Greeks before the Archaic period) are meant to represent. When people say that the Greeks didn't use the linothorax, they are using the word's ancient meaning (i.e. a linen cuirass), and not its modern meaning (the T&Y cuirass).

[Duguntz]

When you say 'Greeks', I assume you mean 'southern Greeks'? Athenians, Spartans, Epirotes, Corinthians, Thebans etc.

Not including Macedonians, Thessalians, or Thracians, who weren't considered 'Greek' by the Athenians, but Hellenised barbarians - or the later Seleucids, Ptolemies, Baktrians, etc, who aren't 'Greek' either but 'Hellenic'.

Well, tehre's a difference between greek and Hellens. Greek is a people, Hellen is a culture. if greeks (like you like to say, southern greeks) didn't wear linothorax armour, that means that greeks didn't wear linothorax armour, but that hellenized population did.

[cultist]

This is rather interesting
http://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/Linothorax.html
The Linothorax is built around the idea of composite material, the resistance of the whole is more than the sum of the parts that go in

[antisocialmunky]

Works well until it gets moldy in the rain.

[cultist]

Yes, i dont think the europeans knew how to make the resistant to water glue made out of fish bladder

[abou]

Hence why they would have been painted.

[moonburn]

or they could just cover it all up with leather ?

[antisocialmunky]

Then they'd look like they were from a post apocalyptic Australia.
https://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6537/943531madmaxanddogsuper.jpg

[Ibrahim]

Then they'd look like they were from a post apocalyptic Australia.
https://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6537/943531madmaxanddogsuper.jpg


:laugh4:

srsly, someone needs to got beyond thunderdome....