I Can Haz RightZ?

[Strike For The South]

1. So as the Muslim world is exploding with all sorts of awesome democracy much has been attributed to social networks such as facebook and Twitter as the catalysts for these protests. To me this is the same as giving all the credit to Bush for first coming up with the idea that spreading democracy can work.

This is not to say that these forms of media have been instrumental in organization but I feel like we are missing the bigger point. That there are universal rights we can agree on and a liberal republic is the way to go, people will only tolerate tyranny for so long.

As American fears of Chinese/Indian/Europe dominated century are becoming ever more prevalent we are scrambling to find an answer. The big lynchpin has of course been the economy but it is a basic boogeyman, barring some sort of massive and epic cluster ***** Americas position in the world pecking won't fall to far. Not to say things don't need to be addressed but it is certainly not how we will win the 21st century.

We champion rights; we support these uprisings, not with troops but with leaflets. We hammer China on a lack of political freedoms, Europe on a lack of speech freedoms, we convince India to buy Gap.

I see it all the time at school, Chinese and Indian grad students have Iphones, American Eagle Sweaters, and fossil watches. We bemoan the rise of Chinas blue water navy and of India becoming mobilized but we are focusing on the wrong things.

Americas true power resides in the soft power we have. People bemoan American decadence but risk life and limb to get it. As soon as someone in a developing country becomes middle class they do not buy traditional they buy products America made famous

Guns and butter is dead. It’s now Jeans and phones

[Vladimir]

You forgot the picture:

https://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8094/indexbg.jpg (https://img522.imageshack.us/i/indexbg.jpg/)

[Tellos Athenaios]

But do you fear the Chinese drinking of Coca Cola and eating at Mc Donalds, or do you fear the Chinese deciding they want their money's worth and unilaterally rewriting their diplomatic agreements?
Do you fear the Europeans insisting on special transatlantic relationship therapy, or do you fear them going their own way preferring to flirt with others instead?

Anyway, I for one, welcome you to the “we don't wield real power anymore, but you should still listen to us” club.

[Brenus]

"It’s now Jeans and phones " Before you had Coca Cola & Mc Do... Didn't work much... And jeans as well..

[Strike For The South]

But do you fear the Chinese drinking of Coca Cola and eating at Mc Donalds, or do you fear the Chinese deciding they want their money's worth and unilaterally rewriting their diplomatic agreements?
Do you fear the Europeans insisting on special transatlantic relationship therapy, or do you fear them going their own way preferring to flirt with others instead?

Anyway, I for one, welcome you to the “we don't wield real power anymore, but you should still listen to us” club.

I simply think a little soft power goes a long way. Ameirca exports more leisure than any other country and leisure is what people aspire to.


"It’s now Jeans and phones " Before you had Coca Cola & Mc Do... Didn't work much... And jeans as well..

I know I never see those things anywhere except the US....wait that's not true is it? Now with a rising middle class in these countries it is now time to carpe diem and show people the republic and the gap are the right way to go.

I realize as Frenchman you have many caveats about American soft power, do try to forget some of your biases.

[Louis VI the Fat]

But do you fear the Chinese drinking of Coca Cola and eating at Mc Donalds, or do you fear the Chinese deciding they want their money's worth and unilaterally rewriting their diplomatic agreements?
Do you fear the Europeans insisting on special transatlantic relationship therapy, or do you fear them going their own way preferring to flirt with others instead?

Anyway, I for one, welcome you to the “we don't wield real power anymore, but you should still listen to us” club.Ain't that the truth. Somebody knocks you off your perch, and you'll keep moaning for centuries that unlike the new guy you have culture and soft power. Influences much preferable over the cold steel of the parvenu.

Greece claimed it had more culture than Rome. France claims she has more than America. And America will claim more culture than China. Allthough, in the last case, that might require a rather fair bit of suspension of disbelief. ~;p

[Louis VI the Fat]

I realize as Frenchman you have many caveats about American soft power, do try to forget some of your biases.Bias? What bias?

See, you people just don't understand! Try to see the world from our perspective: it is not bias, it's just that..well...it's just not always easy to take you people seriously. :kid: :mickey: :gbow:

We try, we really do. But then invariably the next American is on tv, showing off a new burger technique that allows six layers of alternating bacon and beef (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132821-The-most-shocking-expose-of-a-company-in-modern-times%21), proudly hailing it as the next pinnacle of American civilization. Then when I have an 'end of civilization' moment about it, people complain I'm being a protectionist communist (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132358-This-Means-War). :shrug:


The spread of culture by the hegemonistic power:

In 1789, while on his way to Bordeaux to learn about the musings on the organisation of a just republic by a local philosopher by the name of Montesquieu, Thomas Jefferson saw this château:


https://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8399/chc3a2teauderastignac.jpg




That's right. Jefferson, the accomplished architect, liked it so much that he later designed his residence in Washington after it:

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1879/whitehousesouthsidecomp.jpg


And in 200 years time, Strike jr. VIII will show some Chinese guys pictures of the skyscrapers in Chicago and NY, and how they already had these in the early 20th century, and how the Chinese copied it all from them and blahblahblah...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ain't that the truth. Somebody knocks you off your perch, and you'll keep moaning for centuries that unlike the new guy you have culture and soft power. Influences much preferable over the cold steel of the parvenu.

Greece claimed it had more culture than Rome. France claims she has more than America. And America will claim more culture than China. Allthough, in the last case, that might require a rather fair bit of suspension of disbelief. ~;p

Greece did have more culture than Rome, or a higher standard of cultural production in it's heyday. France and Britain arguably also produced more during their insurgant periods than America. That's not to say Rome, America and Chine don't have culture but the three civilisations you picked all entered assendancy through pure bloody-mindedness and basic brute force.

Rome used it's brutally efficient military machine, a result of a cultural view which favoured a spartan and militaristic lifestyle as a means of political advancement. The American rise was a result of British, French and Russian military machines being completely gutted after WWII, and the American population and industrial base being intact. If Chine becomes the world leader it will be through brutal political control and sheer force of numbers.

Compare this to "Greek" supremacy, a result of the failure of Persian imperial ambition followed by two ruthlessly brilliant King of Macedonia who were also great patron of the Arts. Britain rose to dominance through its mercantile power which financed the best army of the age, French power was largely the result of another brutally brilliant monarch.

So.... yeah.

America is only now learning soft power, and the brilliance of British diplomatic practice still makes them look heavy handed, take the example of the Cod Wars - and why Britian wanted to lose.

[Cute Wolf]

I have a feelings that in this century, France will again dominate the World...

[Louis VI the Fat]

America is only now learning soft power, and the brilliance of British diplomatic practice still makes them look heavy handed, take the example of the Cod Wars - and why Britian wanted to lose.And of course, to a large extent, the United States simply are lingering British soft power itself.



I have a feelings that in this century, France will again dominate the World...

In optimistic scenarios, by the end of this century France will still largely dominate much of France.

Me I'm not so sure about that...

[Greyblades]

If it makes you feel any better, we're proud of our lingering soft power has made of itself.

[Fisherking]

Something is soft and it aint just the power.

Jeans and phones are made elsewhere. Coke and Burgers are not exactly a culture worth touting.

It may have given the world the internet, via a defense project, that allowed the world a freer exchange of ideas, but you can’t sell ideas. Once they are out there they get used. The Greeks came up with Democracy, as you might recall. The US set theirs up patterned on Native Americans.

Taking credit for what others do usually ticks them off.

Without military muscle the rest of the world would happily forget they existed and go back to drinking wine and eating local dishes.

The main thing America has going for it now is just good advertising.

[Vladimir]

Something is soft and it aint just the power.

Jeans and phones are made elsewhere. Coke and Burgers are not exactly a culture worth touting.

It may have given the world the internet, via a defense project, that allowed the world a freer exchange of ideas, but you can’t sell ideas. Once they are out there they get used. The Greeks came up with Democracy, as you might recall. The US set theirs up patterned on Native Americans.

Taking credit for what others do usually ticks them off.

Without military muscle the rest of the world would happily forget they existed and go back to drinking wine and eating local dishes.

The main thing America has going for it now is just good advertising.

That's interesting. How popular was America before the war?

[Tellos Athenaios]

That's interesting. How popular was America before the war?
Well if you mean the Iraq war, consider this: you would probably not have had so much trouble in public, convincing NATO partners to remain in Afghanistan. I do think that events in Iraq and of course the disturbing totalitarian side to prisoner treatment made public opinion sway towards “well this is going all pear shaped, now if they want to batter their heads on a wall so be it; but we're out thank you very much”. Not that it translates into an overall sense of “let's just leave the USA, it's their problem so they can sort it out on their own”, but I do think there is a sense of “we're stuck in it but we are not going to go in any deeper”.

More generally, at least I do get the impression that the USA is no longer quite the “exciting” option it once was. By this I mean that things like studying abroad (if this wasn't in the EU) automatically seemed to imply studying in the USA. Now it's more of a “well you have some good universities in the USA so that's where I'd like to go” option rater than “America! What else?” idea to paraphrase a certain commercial. It's as if some of the appeal is wearing off.

[Skullheadhq]

the credit to Bush for first coming up with the idea that spreading democracy can work.
We can all see it working...

[Strike For The South]

We can all see it working...


Try reading the entire post next time

Such small minds have invaded the backroom, maybe I shouldn't have used "soft power" many of you have tiny pea sized brains and can't see the forest from the trees.

More of the devolping world is entering the middle class
If America knows anything its the middle class
This is what we can exploit

I will start writing in full paragraphs when someone catches on

[Fisherking]

Try reading the entire post next time

Such small minds have invaded the backroom, maybe I shouldn't have used "soft power" many of you have tiny pea sized brains and can't see the forest from the trees.

More of the devolping world is entering the middle class
If America knows anything its the middle class
This is what we can exploit

I will start writing in full paragraphs when someone catches on

The emerging middle classes of developing countries may want the products America made popular, and no longer manufactures, but they could care less about American middle class values or attitudes.

They don’t want them.

You are talking about a morale power and it just isn’t there.

[Strike For The South]

The emerging middle classes of developing countries may want the products America made popular, and no longer manufactures, but they could care less about American middle class values or attitudes.

They don’t want them.

You are talking about a morale power and it just isn’t there.

So the gap jeans and I-phones I see these Chinese and Indian grad students with pump no money into the American economy?

I could've sworn those companies were American

[Fisherking]

So the gap jeans and I-phones I see these Chinese and Indian grad students with pump no money into the American economy?

I could've sworn those companies were American

Most of the Stock Holders are!

But that doesn’t help your middle class in the least.

[Strike For The South]

Most of the Stock Holders are!

But that doesn’t help your middle class in the least.

Directly probably not, but there is something to be exploited here that can benefit everyone.

Not to mention big buisness still needs the peons to run around for menial labor. So while we may not solve the income gap with this the country will remain solvent. It's not my middle class, let's get that out of the way right now. I merley speak for those who get violently raped and when they are left to die in some back street alley bleeding from all of their orifices the rapist tells them "THIS WILL KEEP TEH EVILZ SOCIALISM AWAY" as he goes and collects more $$$$

[Fisherking]

As I said the stockholders are in the US but the products are made in those 3rd world countries with new middle classes.

When they ask for more money they will move and make them in other 3rd world countries.

Meantime with out a broad base of decent paying jobs the US slips down until they make products again, because it is cheep labor....

[Strike For The South]

As I said the stockholders are in the US but the products are made in those 3rd world countries with new middle classes.

When they ask for more money they will move and make them in other 3rd world countries.

Meantime with out a broad base of decent paying jobs the US slips down until they make products again, because it is cheep labor....

Yea thank god that isn't happening now

Abstract talk about jobs and competitivness get us no where. Looking at and adapting to a changing world will

[Fisherking]

Yea thank god that isn't happening now

Abstract talk about jobs and competitivness get us no where. Looking at and adapting to a changing world will

Yes, so long as we know the risks and have clear vision.

[Strike For The South]

Yes, so long as we know the risks and have clear vision.

Well what we doing now ain't working hoss

[Fisherking]

Well what we doing now ain't working hoss




understatement
:laugh4:

[gaelic cowboy]

Most of the Stock Holders are!

But that doesn’t help your middle class in the least.

The problem with Stockholders is that sure they risk all on investing initially, but they are unfortunately the most mobile stakeholder too.

[Lord Winter]

Something is soft and it aint just the power.

Jeans and phones are made elsewhere. Coke and Burgers are not exactly a culture worth touting.

It may have given the world the internet, via a defense project, that allowed the world a freer exchange of ideas, but you can’t sell ideas. Once they are out there they get used. The Greeks came up with Democracy, as you might recall. The US set theirs up patterned on Native Americans.

Taking credit for what others do usually ticks them off.

Without military muscle the rest of the world would happily forget they existed and go back to drinking wine and eating local dishes.

The main thing America has going for it now is just good advertising.

But ideas are what you sell in the end. Manufacturing can be important true but its nothing if you can't manufacture useful things that people want to buy. Britain didn't become an empire based on the fact the fact that it had a large manufacturing base. It became an empire based on its ability to come up with technology and ideas that allowed it to maintain an advantage in industrial technology.

[gaelic cowboy]

Britain became an Empire through the application and maintenance of superior force.

[Centurion1]

specifically a navy.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Britain became an Empire through the application and maintenance of superior force.

Superior in quality though, not quantity, British ships were faster and heavier gunned, making it possible for Britain to apply high power in precise ways whilst maintaining a relatively small land army.

[gaelic cowboy]

Superior in quality though, not quantity, British ships were faster and heavier gunned, making it possible for Britain to apply high power in precise ways whilst maintaining a relatively small land army.

Not only quality recruits and ships ye also had a fine research and innovation tradition in battle tactics(naval tactic I believe were superior), and ye more meritocratic than other countries (being connected still was a massive leg up the ranks obviously though).

Basically necessity bred invention plus a bit of luck in being spearated from Europe.

[Slyspy]

Superior in quality though, not quantity, British ships were faster and heavier gunned, making it possible for Britain to apply high power in precise ways whilst maintaining a relatively small land army.

During the formation of the Empire British ships were, generally, neither faster nor more heavily gunned than their European rivals. Britain gained an Empire mostly through people's desire for money.

[gaelic cowboy]

During the formation of the Empire British ships were, generally, neither faster nor more heavily gunned than their European rivals. Britain gained an Empire mostly through people's desire for money.



[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_15EwXLClSc"]Empire of the Seas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4kronXOWTU&feature=related)

I cant find the earlier programmes that deal with trafalgar but this programme was very interesting

Seeing as your in UK you can prob watch it on the bbc website I remeber it basically said britain did have better ships

[al Roumi]

Step away from the jingoism gentlemen, it's rife.


During the formation of the Empire British ships were, generally, neither faster nor more heavily gunned than their European rivals. Britain gained an Empire mostly through people's desire for money.

And in fact, much of that capital and trade originaly came from the Netherlands. The "glorious revolution" tied England to the Netherlands but also sealed the Netherlands decline from a first rate colonising/mercantile force.

And while we're at it, the capital on which the Netherlands rose to prominence was originaly Latin American/Spanish - Spain depended on the bankers of Italy and the Netherlands rather than developing its own financial base.

[al Roumi]

Empire of the Seas

I cant find the earlier programmes that deal with trafalgar but this programme was very interesting

Seeing as your in UK you can prob watch it on the bbc website I remeber it basically said britain did have better ships

To my mind, Trafalgar is after the time Slyspy mentions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To my mind, Trafalgar is after the time Slyspy mentions.

Trafalgar is in what is termed the "new" Empire, the "old" Empire was before the American revolution.

[al Roumi]

Trafalgar is in what is termed the "new" Empire, the "old" Empire was before the American revolution.

Great. I'm talking about the "Glorious revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_revolution)" of 1688, one of the main (Dutch) motivations for which was the alliance of England and the Netherlands to overwhelm France.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What's a 'tragalfar'? :huh:

[Idaho]

1. So as the Muslim world is exploding with all sorts of awesome democracy much has been attributed to social networks such as facebook and Twitter as the catalysts for these protests. To me this is the same as giving all the credit to Bush for first coming up with the idea that spreading democracy can work.

It's not about the Muslim world. It's the Arab world, and it's always had a healthy tendancy for overthrowing tyrants and pushing for social and political change. As I have said a hundred times on this board, this political tendancy has recently been subverted into political islam, but that's only a subversion, it's not the main stream. It's very notable how non-islamic and secular the flavour and style of these protests have been. They have been what arab protests have historically often been about - jobs and corruption.


Rome used it's brutally efficient military machine, a result of a cultural view which favoured a spartan and militaristic lifestyle as a means of political advancement.

Rome's acendancy was about taxes and logistics. They were simply more organised on a larger scale.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Rome's acendancy was about taxes and logistics. They were simply more organised on a larger scale.

Rome's military drew from a much larger section of society than her enemies, by organising her society into teared classes and drawing from all of them she increased her relative manpower without increasing the size of her population.

[Idaho]

Rome's military drew from a much larger section of society than her enemies, by organising her society into teared classes and drawing from all of them she increased her relative manpower without increasing the size of her population.

You're putting the cart before the horse. The logistical sophistication led to the stratification of class.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You're putting the cart before the horse. The logistical sophistication led to the stratification of class.

No it didn't, the class stratification was in place by 500 BC, and greatly refined in 350 BC, logistical innovation did not occur until 106 BC when Marius greatly reduced the Roman baggage train, the centralised Military Industrial Complex of the Romans was a product of the early Empire.

If you read Polybius you can see that what impressed him was the way Roman society was organised, not their technical logistics. It all had to do with how you define a citizen, Rome was the polar opposite of Sparta in this regard, it defined citizenship much more widely than it's Hellenic and Hellenistic neighbours.

[Vladimir]

During the formation of the Empire British ships were, generally, neither faster nor more heavily gunned than their European rivals. Britain gained an Empire mostly through people's desire for money.

You people are all wrong. Sodomy and the lash is the key to empire!