Some Thoughts on Culture and America

[Vuk]

I have been thinking about popular culture, tradition, and America of late, and I have come to a rather radical conclusion. The way that I see it is that culture is a very important part of a society keeping together, being stable, etc., but it also has baggage. Culture has many aspects to it: material pop culture (fashion, cuisine to an extent, cars, etc), linguistic culture, moral culture, religious/spiritual/ritual culture, intellectual culture, and politcal culture to name a few.
America has been different from other countries traditionally in that (as it has so many material/linguistic/religious cultural influences) in that there seems to have traditionally been a far greater gap between material/linguistic/religious culture and moral/intellectual culture. This may have had something to do with the difficulty in tying down exactly what American material/linguistic/religious culture really was, and thus what we had in common is what was emphasized. In recent decades we have fallen into the trap of associating the material/linguistic/religious culture with the moral/intellectual culture. The division between them is essential I think to intellectual thought standing on its own, and not falling victim to generalizations. It is this division I think that allowed Americans to think so radically and succeed the way that they did, but was also behind allegations by Euros that Americans do not have culture.
To be honest with you, I think that is a good thing! America should not have a culture. Rather than 'America' having a culture, culture should be something on the individual level and should always be fluid and flexible.
The moral and intellectual sides of culture should be what defines Americans (not jeans or slang). The rest of the world has long had little/no distinction, and is one of the culprits behind European and Asian Nationalism and is responsible for all kinds of discrimination.
What is best from America is to be exceptional in this case, and not be like the rest of the world. Americans don't have to play by other societies' definitions of culture, nationalism, etc.

I hope that made some kind of sense. What are your thoughts on that?

[Fisherking]

I think I have it deciphered.

I also think you are confusing National Character with aspects of culture.

The character is to get things done. Not to bother with precise instructions but to do what works. Experimentation and free thinking inventiveness have helped in some of the country’s achievements. Of course it has lead to some disasters on Christmas Eve or when assembling Swedish furniture.

When Europeans speak of the US lacking culture they are talking about High Culture. That would be Classical Music, Art, Stately Architecture and all those things that get a blank stare if you talk about them in a bar.

So, does this make a difference in your stance?

[Lemur]

Whenever I need to demonstrate American cultural superiority, I play the Sharktopus card.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U87zVkIXNI0

[Vuk]

I think I have it deciphered.

I also think you are confusing National Character with aspects of culture.

The character is to get things done. Not to bother with precise instructions but to do what works. Experimentation and free thinking inventiveness have helped in some of the country’s achievements. Of course it has lead to some disasters on Christmas Eve or when assembling Swedish furniture.

When Europeans speak of the US lacking culture they are talking about High Culture. That would be Classical Music, Art, Stately Architecture and all those things that get a blank stare if you talk about them in a bar.

So, does this make a difference in your stance?

I made particular reference to pop-culture, not high culture, but know, it does not. The problem is that people have a tendency to associate aspects National Character with culture, and that is where you get the problem. (Ex. Only intellectuals are not racist. Intellectuals dress in X way and listen to X music. You don't listen to X music or dress in X way, therefore you are a racist. You see what I mean? That is of course only an example of the stereotyping that can come from it, which is only one facet of the issue, but I think it demonstrates the problems inherent to associating moral/intellectual culture and beliefs with material pop culture.)

[Greyblades]

(Ex. Only intellectuals are not racist. Intellectuals dress in X way and listen to X music. You don't listen to X music or dress in X way, therefore you are a racist. You see what I mean?
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/3912.jpg

[gaelic cowboy]

I have never been of the opinion that america has no high culture far from it some of the great art forms in literature are American and plus newer forms like cinema etc etc.

Anyway the reality is the high culture of Europe that people talk about is just as inaccessible to the working masses of Europe as it is to the US ones.

[Vuk]

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/3912.jpg
A, I don't think you read what I said very well.
B, I did not say that I agreed with it, but I merely mentioned it as a way people think. (whether it is smart or not)

[Greyblades]

Woa woa, easy, I posted it as a joke.

[Strike For The South]

I have been thinking about popular culture, tradition, and America of late, and I have come to a rather radical conclusion. The way that I see it is that culture is a very important part of a society keeping together, being stable, etc., but it also has baggage. Culture has many aspects to it: material pop culture (fashion, cuisine to an extent, cars, etc), linguistic culture, moral culture, religious/spiritual/ritual culture, intellectual culture, and politcal culture to name a few.
America has been different from other countries traditionally in that (as it has so many material/linguistic/religious cultural influences) in that there seems to have traditionally been a far greater gap between material/linguistic/religious culture and moral/intellectual culture. This may have had something to do with the difficulty in tying down exactly what American material/linguistic/religious culture really was, and thus what we had in common is what was emphasized. In recent decades we have fallen into the trap of associating the material/linguistic/religious culture with the moral/intellectual culture. The division between them is essential I think to intellectual thought standing on its own, and not falling victim to generalizations. It is this division I think that allowed Americans to think so radically and succeed the way that they did, but was also behind allegations by Euros that Americans do not have culture.
To be honest with you, I think that is a good thing! America should not have a culture. Rather than 'America' having a culture, culture should be something on the individual level and should always be fluid and flexible.
The moral and intellectual sides of culture should be what defines Americans (not jeans or slang). The rest of the world has long had little/no distinction, and is one of the culprits behind European and Asian Nationalism and is responsible for all kinds of discrimination.
What is best from America is to be exceptional in this case, and not be like the rest of the world. Americans don't have to play by other societies' definitions of culture, nationalism, etc.

I hope that made some kind of sense. What are your thoughts on that?

Oh my

America culture is in broad terms, The idea of the Yeoman framer mixed with the 18th century protastent European pesant

This is why we are fat, bull headed workaholics who abhor physical interaction as sin

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

[Vuk]

Oh my

America culture is in broad terms, The idea of the Yeoman framer mixed with the 18th century protastent European pesant

This is why we are fat, bull headed workaholics who abhor physical interaction as sin

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

I am not even sure if I should take this seriously...but here goes:
When I said America should not have a culture I thought that the context made it clear that I was talking about a material/lingual pop culture that defines who we are. I obviously did not, so there you are.
I will not even bother with the rest of your post, as I don't think that it merits a response.

[Strike For The South]

I am not even sure if I should take this seriously...but here goes:
When I said America should not have a culture I thought that the context made it clear that I was talking about a material/lingual pop culture that defines who we are. I obviously did not, so there you are.
I will not even bother with the rest of your post, as I don't think that it merits a response.

And I did not reference a pop culture

The idea of the Yeoman farmer is probably the broadest and most accepted carciture of what an American is and how we veiw government

Personally I think you're pissing in the wind, but that's just me

What do you want out of this disscussion?

[Vuk]

And I did not reference a pop culture

The idea of the Yeoman farmer is probably the broadest and most accepted carciture of what an American is and how we veiw government

Personally I think you're pissing in the wind, but that's just me

What do you want out of this disscussion?
I simply was sharing some thoughts that I was having, and was wondering what people thought. I was expecting serious replies though, not trolling.

[Strike For The South]

I simply was sharing some thoughts that I was having, and was wondering what people thought. I was expecting serious replies though, not trolling.

I am not trolling you

To pin down 300 million people, all of whom have been imparted by different immagrant groups is not simply a labrious task it is a nigh; impossible one.

What would you like me to say?

America is marked by dogged individualism and self-deterimination

The ability to make ones identity is key

[Vuk]

I am not trolling you

To pin down 300 million people, all of whom have been imparted by different immagrant groups is not simply a labrious task it is a nigh; impossible one.

What would you like me to say?

America is marked by dogged individualism and self-deterimination

The ability to make ones identity is key

I think that I would agree with you that most Americans used to identify themselves as freedom loving, hard workers, and by other ideals and traits, but now adays people seem to define themselves more through their taste in music, the clothing that they wear, etc. That is where the problem begins I think.

[Strike For The South]

I think that I would agree with you that most Americans used to identify themselves as freedom loving, hard workers, and by other ideals and traits, but now adays people seem to define themselves more through their taste in music, the clothing that they wear, etc. That is where the problem begins I think.

Meh I was never one to yearn for yesteryear

Americans in no time period are without there blackmarks I would rather have consummerism than racism

[Vuk]

Meh I was never one to yearn for yesteryear

Americans in no time period are without there blackmarks I would rather have consummerism than racism

But you are missing my point. I am not arguing that their ideals were good, but that it is better to define yourself by ideals (whatever they are), than material pop-culture.

EDIT: One of those ideals for instance could be a firm belief that all men are equal, and that racism is unfounded and wrong. I would prefer to live with people who identified themselves with ideals like that instead of the type of jeans that they are wearing and where they went to school.

[Strike For The South]

But you are missing my point. I am not arguing that their ideals were good, but that it is better to define yourself by ideals (whatever they are), than material pop-culture.

EDIT: One of those ideals for instance could be a firm belief that all men are equal, and that racism is unfounded and wrong. I would prefer to live with people who identified themselves with ideals like that instead of the type of jeans that they are wearing and where they went to school.

Are you arguing that it's a zero sum game?

[al Roumi]

America haz culture?

[PanzerJaeger]

EDIT: One of those ideals for instance could be a firm belief that all men are equal, and that racism is unfounded and wrong. I would prefer to live with people who identified themselves with ideals like that instead of the type of jeans that they are wearing and where they went to school.

You should move to France or attend university in Greece. In most places in America, wearing your politics on your sleeve in social situations is considered unseemly. If I were to attend a party and discuss my opinion that George Bush was completely correct in his use of water boarding, the cringes would be perceptible in the next room.

The belief in equality and other lofty ideals are generally presumed and therefore not deemed necessary to affirm when forming social groups. In fact, overt racism is such a deviation from the norm that it often forms the basis of social groups by itself. In mainstream culture, lighter subjects, such as music and fashion preferences, are used to form one's identity.

This is normal and only subject to change during times of great national upheaval.

[Hax]

America haz culture?

It's alright ma, I'm only bleeding

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/6441841/Bob+Dylan+and+The+Band+t74_bob_gruen_1.jpg

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think I have it deciphered.I cuddint unnerstand a wurd he sed. mus' be from some farn country. :goofy: :freak: :huh:

Look yall this here hick loves his southern culture. a tennessee redneck is a person who is faithful too there culture and they're flag mine being the confederate flag and proud of it.look some of you sittyboys who done ansered his queshion have really pissed me off and when you piss a redneck of you get nuthin but a 12 gage in your face.

Jumpin jesus on a pogo stick them sittyboys is sissiefied andall. :no:

[a completely inoffensive name]

Let's face it, America has been declining since 1776.

[Greyblades]

I'm realy tempted to say it never was high enough to warrent decline, but I'm not that mean.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm realy tempted to say it never was high enough to warrent decline, but I'm not that mean.

High enough to kick your redcoated butts. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH SNAP!

[Prince Cobra]

Just a note: There are in fact two "Americas". Latin America and USA and Canada. These are two very different worlds. Partly it's due to the fact that in Latin America the colonisers brought feudal practices based on the Iberian model (the English, for example, broke with that model in 15th century, I think) and that the Indians in Latin America were often an important substance of the local nation/culture, which is really very different case from the USA.

And in fact, USA does have culture of its own but this culture has mainly evolved from the beliefs and philosophy of the Europeans who emigrated there (British, German, Italian, Jewish and etc. ). That's why the US culture has almost nothing in common with the Chinese culture, for example. Of course, the same US culture influenced Europe, too.

[Greyblades]

High enough to kick your redcoated butts. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH SNAP!

No. It took French intervention to give you a fighting chance during the revolution, on your own you would have been reabsorbed within the decade.

[a completely inoffensive name]

No. It took French intervention to give you a fighting chance during the revolution, on your own you would have been reabsorbed within the decade.

NO SHUT UP YOU'RE WRONG. AMERICA DID NOT NEED SURRENDERING CHEESE EATERS. STOP INJECTING FACTS INTO MY HISTORY. FOUNDING FATHERS KICKED YOUR BUTTS, ENDED SLAVERY AND ESTABLISHED THE PINNACLE OF FREEDOM AND LIBERTY.

[Greyblades]

I'll take from the lack of three exclaimation marks that was in jest.

[Rhyfelwyr]

lol, this reminds me of that film the Patriot with Mel Gibson where his son tells the black guy to cheer up because once they beat the British soon the slaves will be free! :laugh4:

[Greyblades]

Mel gibson isn't exactly the greatest historian but that is pretty bad.

[Samurai Waki]

America is the only country that went from barbarism to excess without civilization in between.

I think Oscar Wilde wrote that, but it could also be Bernard Shaw... any who, it was written by someone who clearly does not appreciate a Maple Bar Donut topped with Bacon.