Public Sector Union Beatdown Bloodbath Legismania 2011 Wisconsin-style

[a completely inoffensive name]

Lol no surprise the Midwest/Great Lakes want to keep the guy that blames the teachers for the state's woes. Same people that vote for Bachmann. Oh well. I'm trying to secure myself in a position where I will always be in demand despite bad policies, so I can only hope that people will learn how dumb they are in time when everything they rely on is taken from them.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Lol no surprise the Midwest/Great Lakes want to keep the guy that blames the teachers for the state's woes. Same people that vote for Bachmann. Oh well. I'm trying to secure myself in a position where I will always be in demand despite bad policies, so I can only hope that people will learn how dumb they are in time when everything they rely on is taken from them.

Thank god for the internet, eh? Khan academy is one of the best teachers I never had in grammar school. Good riddance to the lot of them. I'm a claims adjuster and I relish the day that I become redundant because self driving vehicles make common accidents a thing of the past. You progressives sure are afraid of the future...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Thank god for the internet, eh? Khan academy is one of the best teachers I never had in grammar school. Good riddance to the lot of them. I'm a claims adjuster and I relish the day that I become redundant because self driving vehicles make common accidents a thing of the past. You progressives sure are afraid of the future...

You have won the day for absurd statements that make no sense.

Khan academy is not the panacea you claim. If you relish the day your job becomes obsolete you should give up your job for someone else who actually wants it.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You have won the day for absurd statements that make no sense.

Khan academy is not the panacea you claim. If you relish the day your job becomes obsolete you should give up your job for someone else who actually wants it.

Neither are teachers the self sacrificing angels that you claim. I want to keep my job while I can, I can just see the writing on the wall. Teachers do too, they just think they can milk the tax payer a bit longer until we all realize that we can do better and cheaper. I'm looking down the barrel of redundancy in the next 10 years, your jobs are already in the redundancy wind-down phase, just behind face to face insurance salesmen.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Neither are teachers the self sacrificing angels that you claim. I want to keep my job while I can, I can just see the writing on the wall. Teachers do too, they just think they can milk the tax payer a bit longer until we all realize that we can do better and cheaper. I'm looking down the barrel of redundancy in the next 10 years, your jobs are already in the redundancy wind-down phase, just behind face to face insurance salesmen.

Teachers are not making 6 figure salaries and are not milking the system. You have no idea of what the problems of the educational system is, like most people. Point the finger at the bureaucrats at the vice principle, principle, superintendent level. Watch the documentary The Cartel.

Bean counters no where near the kids are driving to work in new Lexus's while the teachers are driving Volvo's. You are ignorant, which only proves how ridiculous your assertion about self education is, because it's obviously not working for you.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Bean counters no where near the kids are driving to work in new Lexus's while the teachers are driving Volvo's. Oh no! not the working man's casket the volvo! anything but that!

http://www.motortrend.com/new_cars/07/volvo/pricing/ Boo-Freiking-hoo.

Sounds like you could all eat a big box of reality. The rest of us are driving these (http://www.motortrend.com/new_cars/07/kia/pricing/), or these (http://www.mta.info/metrocard/mcgtreng.htm), or these (http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Work/Acsi-bike-park-big.jpg). Put on your helmet for the deflationary descent, you've got alot of preparation to do. Back to being ignorant and dreaming ignorant things, like working 11 or 12 months out of the year and driving used vehicles and loving every minute of it as long as I get unlimited pies to launch into teachers faces when they begin tiny fiddle playing about how they can't go on shopping spree's at J-Crew anymore because they are the working poor and nobody appreciates them. Most of use went through school and many of us might prefer just having babysitters and an i-pad with some curriculum on it, in hindsight. Sweet dreams

[PanzerJaeger]

Great news tonight. Public sector unions are, perhaps, the most unsympathetic of them all due to the generous federal and state regulations already in place. Unions in general are an anachronism - their original purpose long since enshrined in law. Today, they fight for inefficiency, mediocrity, and incompetence.

Oh, and I'm enjoying the MSNBC collective meltdown... :grin:

[a completely inoffensive name]

Oh no! not the working man's casket the volvo! anything but that!

http://www.motortrend.com/new_cars/07/volvo/pricing/ Boo-Freiking-hoo.

Sounds like you could all eat a big box of reality. The rest of us are driving these (http://www.motortrend.com/new_cars/07/kia/pricing/), or these (http://www.mta.info/metrocard/mcgtreng.htm), or these (http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Work/Acsi-bike-park-big.jpg). Put on your helmet for the deflationary descent, you've got alot of preparation to do. Back to being ignorant and dreaming ignorant things, like working 12 months out of the year and driving used vehicles and loving every minute of it as long as I get unlimited pies to launch into teachers faces when they begin tiny fiddle playing about how they can't go on shopping spree's at J-Crew anymore because they are the working poor.
Weird, I didn't know Volvo's costed so much. Either way you missed the point. The teachers I know drove **** cars and teachers in general are not driving anything costly. You are an angry man. Which is ok because I am too. But I recognize that I shouldn't want everyone to believe in the same angry thoughts about god or live the same crappy life I do because of my crappy life decisions.


Great news tonight. Public sector unions are, perhaps, the most unsympathetic of them all due to the generous federal and state regulations already in place. Unions in general are an anachronism - their original purpose long since enshrined in law. Today, they fight for inefficiency, mediocrity, and incompetence.

Oh, and I'm enjoying the MSNBC collective meltdown... :grin:

You also seem to miss the point that without unions, where is the power behind those laws? Every law has an interest group that props it up so that it does not crumble underneath another interest group's vision. Without unions, laws benefiting workers will be eroded under the guise of "restrictive" and "choking our economy". And then we can all experience the same growth numbers as China, with the same lifestyle and cost.


I find it weird that we still live under capitalism as we did 100 years ago, but somehow people think that the battles of Blair Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_blair_mountain), are relics of the past and that the circumstances which lead to violent uprisings are not possible in 2012.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Me too. I specifically go to MSNBC to see them melt down after primaries, little elections, major events. It's become a past time of ours in the TSMG household.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You also seem to miss the point that without unions, where is the power behind those laws? Every law has an interest group that props it up so that it does not crumble underneath another interest group's vision.

Excessive amounts of guns and weaponry in the hands of American citizens. I love George Orwell for a reason, read my sig on the regular.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Excessive amounts of guns and weaponry in the hands of American citizens. I love George Orwell for a reason, read my sig on the regular.

Yeah.....again, Blair Mountain. Only making yourself look worse buddy.

[PanzerJaeger]

You also seem to miss the point that without unions, where is the power behind those laws? Every law has an interest group that props it up so that it does not crumble underneath another interest group's vision. Without unions, laws benefiting workers will be eroded under the guise of "restrictive" and "choking our economy". And then we can all experience the same growth numbers as China, with the same lifestyle and cost.


Heh, unions are interested in preserving and strengthening the position of their members, often at the expense of non-union workers (and, of course, the taxpayers). That's one of the reasons why they couldn't sell to the general public in Wisconsin today. There are plenty of political organizations and politicians dedicated to advocating for the rights of all workers.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Heh, unions are interested in preserving and strengthening the position of their members. That's one of the reasons why they couldn't sell to the general public in Wisconsin today. There are plenty of political organizations and politicians dedicated to advocating for the rights of all workers.

A rotting wooden column. It's creaks annoy the guests at night. The moss and maggots protruding openly disgust all who look at it. Enough was enough for the people and they brought their hatchets to cleanse the house and found themselves crushed to death by the roof.

[Major Robert Dump]

A rotting wooden column. It's creaks annoy the guests at night. The moss and maggots protruding openly disgust all who look at it. Enough was enough for the people and they brought their hatchets to cleanse the house and found themselves crushed to death by the roof.

I love 50 Cent, too, his rhymes are epic

[Montmorency]

A rotting wooden column. It's creaks annoy the guests at night. The moss and maggots protruding openly disgust all who look at it. Enough was enough for the people and they brought their hatchets to cleanse the house and found themselves crushed to death by the roof.

Is this where Sasaki would say, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"?

:grin:

[a completely inoffensive name]

I love 50 Cent, too, his rhymes are epic

Some theorize that house actually fell down because one of the females was "shaking dat ***" too hard. Dem vibrations if u know what I am sayin'?


Is this where Sasaki would say, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"?

:grin:

Baby's are annoying and disgusting to look at as well.

[Major Robert Dump]

The problem with unions for quite some time is that they -- despite being masters of collective bargaining -- will not bargain on union membership/right-to-work issues.

Unions don't bother me. If people want to unionize, let them. If it drives up costs, well, the consumer pays for it and that is a side effect we vote on with our wallets.

But this utter garbage where you have to be unionized to simply work in a sector? It is hogwash. And all the whining that pro-unions folk do when a state passes right-to-work is a bunch of drama queen garbage. People should not have to join unions if they do not want to.

And this lack of middle ground is precisely what is killing unions

[a completely inoffensive name]

The problem with unions for quite some time is that they -- despite being masters of collective bargaining -- will not bargain on union membership/right-to-work issues.

Unions don't bother me. If people want to unionize, let them. If it drives up costs, well, the consumer pays for it and that is a side effect we vote on with our wallets.

But this utter garbage where you have to be unionized to simply work in a sector? It is hogwash. And all the whining that pro-unions folk do when a state passes right-to-work is a bunch of drama queen garbage. People should not have to join unions if they do not want to.

And this lack of middle ground is precisely what is killing unions

The problem with allowing people to not join the union, is that you get into a "tragedy of the commons" situation.

[Strike For The South]

Until unions realize concessions work both ways, the will, and deserve to lose everything.

I flaiming libreal and I have no sympathy for those who think governement comes from nowhere

[Strike For The South]

Let me also say I am no fan of walker, if he could shove his coroprate masters any far down his throat than he could quit politics and go into film BUT the union had this coming when they acted like petulant children and overplayed their hand. I find it hard to feel sorry for the army of former soroity sisters who took it down the pipe for 4 years, graduated with an education degree and stare out to space on the xanax/wellburtin cocktail till 4 pm.

Most public school teachers are shit. Get 4 months off, 2 days off week. I am a full time student, working 50 hours a week, and yesterday I watched a man slice his pointer finger off with a band saw. Forgive me If I seem not to care. You overplayed your hand and then refused to budge.

[Strike For The South]

I dont think the two above posts are coherent

I am tired.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If you don't like the time teachers get off from teaching, push to have schooling year round and eliminate the summer vacation. Summer vacations are terrible for students anyway because kids forget large portions of what they learned from disuse and have to spend time playing catch up next school year.

Parents however cry every time proposals to eliminate the summer appear because the kids need to have their "childhood freedom", which according to modern helicopter parents means, staying inside playing video games.

[Vladimir]

What? So no one's posted the result?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/wisconsin-recall-election_n_1572310.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/06/us-usa-wisconsin-recall-protests-idUSBRE85506A20120606


(Reuters) - Protesters who had besieged the Wisconsin Capitol in Madison 16 months ago, starting an historic effort to oust Republican Governor Scott Walker from office, said on Tuesday they were demoralized he had survived the recall.

I love the slant on the Rooters article.

[Lemur]

Not 100% sure on the math, but it appears that Dems took control of the state Senate (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/3-gop-senators-survive-recalls-ib5jfeg-157395125.html) last night, which may be consequential.

Interesting polling numbers this morning, have to take a deeper look when I've time. One number jumps out at me: 17% of self-proclaimed Obama supporters voted for Walker. Fascinating.

[Major Robert Dump]

Avoiding a Tragedy of The Commons situation is not a valid excuse for making someone join an organization that charges dues, contributes to political causes they may not agree with, and black balls people who don't want to join.

Yeah, I got it, they can benefit from all the unions past work (like dental coverage) without actually joining. Boohoo. Life isn't fair. Kind of like my family never owned slaves but I certainly get to carry part of that burden. Life isn't fair.

Unions are meant to stave off the sharks ad the wolves. In a lot of cases, they themselves are the sharks and the wolves. They exist to exist. A little modesty from time to time on the part of union leaders would be nice. Look at what happened with the Longshoreman in Portland/Seattle a couple of years ago and tell me that any of that crap made sense.

On one hand we get the left wanting to take down barriers to free, international trade, on the other hand they support longshoreman unions that drive up the cost of using a dock to the point that it is cheaper to offload in mexico and risk having your truck hijacked by the Zetas. And no, I? cannot bring my own tugboat or use my own forklifts and crew because I have to use the union longshoreman, it is the law, thanks to the unions. Awesome. Do people not see a problem with this? Since when is a dock -- public water -- owned by a union??

[Vladimir]

Not 100% sure on the math, but it appears that Dems took control of the state Senate (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/3-gop-senators-survive-recalls-ib5jfeg-157395125.html) last night, which may be consequential.

Interesting polling numbers this morning, have to take a deeper look when I've time. One number jumps out at me: 17% of self-proclaimed Obama supporters voted for Walker. Fascinating.

Don't the Republicans have a one seat majority? Not that it matters much.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/152346265.html

That is one convincing victory.

[rvg]

The common sense has prevailed.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Next on the agenda? Eliminate the mortgage tax credit. It unfairly burdens renters and causes home costs to go up. Ditch it and drop everybody's tax rate. Not only is this the right and equitable thing to do, but it will drop the demand for homes, thereby dropping the cost of homes. Anyone who rents should be in favor of this, and as the percentage of renters goes up vs homeowners, this idea will prevail.

Annihilate the system.

[Strike For The South]

Next on the agenda? Eliminate the mortgage tax credit. It unfairly burdens renters and causes home costs to go up. Ditch it and drop everybody's tax rate. Not only is this the right and equitable thing to do, but it will drop the demand for homes, thereby dropping the cost of homes. Anyone who rents should be in favor of this, and as the percentage of renters goes up vs homeowners, this idea will prevail.

Annihilate the system.

But why?

It seems awfully convienent that this anihlation will destroy many barriers you personally encounter in everyday life

How freaking convienent. The entire culmanation of the nation state and the mixed economy is a conspiracy to keep you down.

[Lemur]

For your amusement, I submit the following overreaction:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEwXa197uBU

[Vladimir]

R.I.P. America. :skull:

Doesn't the basis of that theory require an uninformed and unmotivated electorate? Never understood that.

[Lemur]

Part of the reason I don't miss cable TV (http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/06/the-worst-night-on-cable-news-125389.html) (thank you, Netflix, for offering me a way out). For what it's worth, CNN kept on covering the Q of E's diamond jubilee.

MSNBC was blatantly rooting for Tom Barrett to defeat Gov. Scott Walker, even sending union champion Ed Schultz to cover an event with no apologies for the dog he has in the fight. (Earlier tonight, Chris Matthews even told Schultz that if he wasn't an MSNBC host, he could be head of the AFL-CIO.) When it became clear that Barrett would lose, Schultz looked almost teary eyed. Not long after, the network's contributors immediately began suggesting that this was, in fact, good news for Obama — who, after all, hadn't even set foot in Wisconsin — and began attacking Mitt Romney.

Meanwhile, Fox News was blatantly rooting for Gov. Scott Walker, and the moment it became clear that Walker might win, host Sean Hannity called it "a repudiation of big unions," which did "everything they could do to demonize Scott Walker." Guest Hugh Hewitt then predicted that, five months from now, Romney would follow Walker just "as Reagan followed Thatcher." Fox's Greta Van Susteren later hosted what amounted to a victory celebration for the Republicans.

Given such blatantly partisan coverage, it was absolutely impossible to watch either network and gain any clear understanding of the actual significance of the event, much less what effect it would actually have on the 2012 presidential election.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Part of the reason I don't miss cable TV (http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/06/the-worst-night-on-cable-news-125389.html) (thank you, Netflix, for offering me a way out). For what it's worth, CNN kept on covering the Q of E's diamond jubilee.


Come home America, come home!

No, but this is seriously why I prefer our Westminster system - individual personalities are of limited value when they can be replaced at the drop of a hat.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Part of the reason I don't miss cable TV (http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/06/the-worst-night-on-cable-news-125389.html) (thank you, Netflix, for offering me a way out). For what it's worth, CNN kept on covering the Q of E's diamond jubilee.

MSNBC was blatantly rooting for Tom Barrett to defeat Gov. Scott Walker, even sending union champion Ed Schultz to cover an event with no apologies for the dog he has in the fight. (Earlier tonight, Chris Matthews even told Schultz that if he wasn't an MSNBC host, he could be head of the AFL-CIO.) When it became clear that Barrett would lose, Schultz looked almost teary eyed. Not long after, the network's contributors immediately began suggesting that this was, in fact, good news for Obama — who, after all, hadn't even set foot in Wisconsin — and began attacking Mitt Romney.

Meanwhile, Fox News was blatantly rooting for Gov. Scott Walker, and the moment it became clear that Walker might win, host Sean Hannity called it "a repudiation of big unions," which did "everything they could do to demonize Scott Walker." Guest Hugh Hewitt then predicted that, five months from now, Romney would follow Walker just "as Reagan followed Thatcher." Fox's Greta Van Susteren later hosted what amounted to a victory celebration for the Republicans.

Given such blatantly partisan coverage, it was absolutely impossible to watch either network and gain any clear understanding of the actual significance of the event, much less what effect it would actually have on the 2012 presidential election.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Those 2 channels do nothing but diminish the mental faculties of the American electorate.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I get my daily news fix from a BBC News app on my smartphone. Every now and then I try to watch CNN and just want to cry. At least FOX is funny.

I read Drudge for entertainment, fox is just scary. drudge seems to have a clever and ironic take of clear partisanship. Fox news and MSNBC feel like kool-aid guzzling cults. I read economist, BBC, politico, and listen to WNYC for most of my news.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Avoiding a Tragedy of The Commons situation is not a valid excuse for making someone join an organization that charges dues, contributes to political causes they may not agree with, and black balls people who don't want to join.

Yeah, I got it, they can benefit from all the unions past work (like dental coverage) without actually joining. Boohoo. Life isn't fair. Kind of like my family never owned slaves but I certainly get to carry part of that burden. Life isn't fair.

Unions are meant to stave off the sharks ad the wolves. In a lot of cases, they themselves are the sharks and the wolves. They exist to exist. A little modesty from time to time on the part of union leaders would be nice. Look at what happened with the Longshoreman in Portland/Seattle a couple of years ago and tell me that any of that crap made sense.

On one hand we get the left wanting to take down barriers to free, international trade, on the other hand they support longshoreman unions that drive up the cost of using a dock to the point that it is cheaper to offload in mexico and risk having your truck hijacked by the Zetas. And no, I? cannot bring my own tugboat or use my own forklifts and crew because I have to use the union longshoreman, it is the law, thanks to the unions. Awesome. Do people not see a problem with this? Since when is a dock -- public water -- owned by a union??

I mean...not trying to target you specifically, but I hear all the time from people online and in RL who I consider "straight shooters" that people who are freeloading off a system (immigrants, "welfare queens", health care system abusers) shouldn't be tolerated. But when it comes to unions, freeloaders are just a fact of life, and there is nothing we can do about it... I see a disconnect there in the public sphere, and I feel it is simply because people don't have any use for the system in particular (unions).

[Major Robert Dump]

Equating a freeloader from the taxpayer dime and a freeloader on the union bus is like comparing a grade school cafeteria to mcdonalds. I HAVE to pay taxes. I don't have to join a union, unless I am lucky enough to be in a profession that tries to make a state/profession union shop. I do not see how the two even begin to compare. I don't care what a union did in the past, and I dont care what other union members do. If I do not want to join I should not have to join, same concept as picking Hollywood video over Blockbuster for Bluerays.

ACIN, I honestly don't think most people have an issue with unions. It's the mandatory attachemnts that come with unions that people dislike, and the Chicken Little mentality everytime a state tries to make itself/a profession right to work. Thus far none of the states in the US that went right-to-work have degraded into 3rd world conditions and slave labor like the critics predicted. When the soothsayer predicts something that turns out to be a farce, it hurts the soothsayers business. Unions are killing themselves, people are just not buying the game anymore.

I am not defending unions busters per se. Walmart has a frigging team of suits with a jet that respond to union organization rumors. Seen it first hand. It's retarded. But if some people decide to go on strike, then why can't I, as a free citizen, decide to go in and undercut their wages so I can get work. I need a job too. Again, I refer you to the longshoreman debacle. And this whole concept flies in the face of illegal immigration and its contribution to the workforce/lower payscale, but we cant talk about that because it involves minorities so just forget I mentioned it.

[Kralizec]

Joining a labour union should be a right, not a prerequisite to get a job.

Non-union members do benefit from collective bargaining (otherwise, it would be pointless - employers would hire more non-unionised members to avoid the higher wage costs and whatnot) and they're therefore free-riders, of a sort. OTOH in the Netherlands at least, non-unionised members don't have any legal means of their own to confront their employer if the latter doesn't adhere to the collective agreement. Neither can they count on any support from the union in the case of a labour dispute.

Dutch unions do suffer from generally low membership (where I live, it's between 30-50% and that's pretty high) but that's in part because unions have the reputation of catering for older employees' interests in particular and thus fail to attract young members.

[Vuk]

Been celebrating ever since the election, so I did not have time to post here and say 'GO WALKER'!
Just think of all the money that has been wasted for no reason.

[rvg]

Been celebrating ever since the election, so I did not have time to post here and say 'GO WALKER'!
Just think of all the money that has been wasted for no reason.

It was money well spent. As a result of the Wisconsin election the libs in Michigan dropped their attempt to recall Gov. Snyder. Needless to say, I was very pleased.

[Major Robert Dump]

Been celebrating ever since the election, so I did not have time to post here and say 'GO WALKER'!
Just think of all the money that has been wasted for no reason.

It was not a waste of money, as the entire endeavor killed democracy, which we knew would be expensive.

[Lemur]

TDS was pretty spot-on throughout (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-5-2012/madison-men---wisconsin-recall). God bless 'em.

[Vladimir]

It was not a waste of money, as the entire endeavor killed democracy, which we knew would be expensive.

I thought Bush 43 did that.

[Major Robert Dump]

No, he stopped the tourists from going nukiller because the tourists hate democracy and our freedom, so it was the tourists who tried to kill democracy, but when they could not the cheese eaters finished the job, which would have never happened if the unions were nukiller. What a mess, what a mess

[a completely inoffensive name]

Equating a freeloader from the taxpayer dime and a freeloader on the union bus is like comparing a grade school cafeteria to mcdonalds. I HAVE to pay taxes. I don't have to join a union, unless I am lucky enough to be in a profession that tries to make a state/profession union shop. I do not see how the two even begin to compare. I don't care what a union did in the past, and I dont care what other union members do. If I do not want to join I should not have to join, same concept as picking Hollywood video over Blockbuster for Bluerays.

ACIN, I honestly don't think most people have an issue with unions. It's the mandatory attachemnts that come with unions that people dislike, and the Chicken Little mentality everytime a state tries to make itself/a profession right to work. Thus far none of the states in the US that went right-to-work have degraded into 3rd world conditions and slave labor like the critics predicted. When the soothsayer predicts something that turns out to be a farce, it hurts the soothsayers business. Unions are killing themselves, people are just not buying the game anymore.

I am not defending unions busters per se. Walmart has a frigging team of suits with a jet that respond to union organization rumors. Seen it first hand. It's retarded. But if some people decide to go on strike, then why can't I, as a free citizen, decide to go in and undercut their wages so I can get work. I need a job too. Again, I refer you to the longshoreman debacle. And this whole concept flies in the face of illegal immigration and its contribution to the workforce/lower payscale, but we cant talk about that because it involves minorities so just forget I mentioned it.


The problem I have with Right to Work is that it really doesn't make life better for the worker. You get to choose to not join a union with the con of no protection with the benefit of not paying union dues. But then the flip side of it is that your employer is able to fire you at any time, with little to no reason or warning. If any employee tried to use the same privilege back at his/her boss you can kiss those references on your resume goodbye and hope your next boss doesn't call up your last one... By seeing the dollar signs in their eyes, people choose to put themselves in slave wage position thinking that having this choice makes their lives so much better.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sometimes the union protection isn't worth the cost of union interference. Its a fine balance, and if it tilts too far to either side it has disastrous implications for the entire economy.

When the individual worker is worthless, such as in today's economy when plenty of others are looking for a job, your boss has complete control over you and can cut your paycheck however much he/she wants because you will be happy you at least have a job.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And yet, if Unions and Union-like organizations didn't go overboard so much employers would be able to hire more people with less financial risk. Like I said, its a balance. At the moment, Unions only benefit some people--but a lot of the ill-effects of Unions are felt by all.

This is an excellent point - and not unique to the US.

One of the most problematic things about modern employment law is the need to advertise and interview.

Sue - it stops you hiring Dave's kid because Dave asked, it also stops you hiring a guy off the street who needs a job.

[Major Robert Dump]

The problem I have with Right to Work is that it really doesn't make life better for the worker. You get to choose to not join a union with the con of no protection with the benefit of not paying union dues. But then the flip side of it is that your employer is able to fire you at any time, with little to no reason or warning. If any employee tried to use the same privilege back at his/her boss you can kiss those references on your resume goodbye and hope your next boss doesn't call up your last one... By seeing the dollar signs in their eyes, people choose to put themselves in slave wage position thinking that having this choice makes their lives so much better.

This entire explanation does not justify mandatory union shops. You are basically saying people cannot make their own decisions and must be protected from themselves, and that any and all negatives union-wise are outweighed by Joe Regular's inability to think for himself. Even if Joe Regular is capable of doing just fine on his own, he has to assimilate for the greater good of those below him.

I think you're heart is in the right place, but this is typical nanny state crap, which often has a subtle profiteering undertone for select individuals while disguised as being for the greater good. Just like the sugary drink law in NYC. If anyone thinks that is just to stop people from getting fat, they are fooling themselves.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This entire explanation does not justify mandatory union shops. You are basically saying people cannot make their own decisions and must be protected from themselves, and that any and all negatives union-wise are outweighed by Joe Regular's inability to think for himself. Basically like a seatbelt law. Not a fan, sorry

Am I wrong in saying people cannot make their own decisions? A country where obesity is an epidemic? A country where we need warning labels on coffee to warn you that it's hot?

The libertarian position depends on humans acting rationally in a given situation, when you realize how wrong that assumption is, the libertarian position becomes a joke.

[Kadagar_AV]

Am I wrong in saying people cannot make their own decisions? A country where obesity is an epidemic? A country where we need warning labels on coffee to warn you that it's hot?

The libertarian position depends on humans acting rationally in a given situation, when you realize how wrong that assumption is, the libertarian position becomes a joke.

I fully agree. However, there are limits to how much control the state should have over one's life... I guess the answer is in finding the right balance. Sweden has gone way to far in one direction, the US way to far in the other direction... Somewhere in the middle would probably be a world we all could live in and thrive, although you will never be able to please everyone.

[Major Robert Dump]

If someone wants to eat themselves to death, that should be their choice.

You only care about them being fat because when they go on the government dole you have to pay for their medicaid and rising insurance costs.

You see how we are coming full circle here, amigo?

Nanny state begets nanny state. The only reason we need nanny state is because nanny state makes people need nanny state.

So no, the Libertarian mindset isn't completely a joke, because you may be shocked at just how many people don't care what you do as long as it doesn't hurt them. Get fat, be an alcoholic, be a drug addict, die of STDs, get cancer, get ejected from your car. I don't care. I have enough crap on my plate to worry about without having to legislate your life too


** and the warning labels on coffee thing is to stave off garbage lawsuits, not because people can't take care of themselves. Don't mistake greed and grift for imbecility. **

[Lemur]

The only reason we need nanny state is because nanny state makes people need nanny state.
As I'm sure you're aware, that's a radical and misleading simplification of history. On the slim chance you're not just engaging in rhetorical flourishes, I'd reference pretty much the entire 1800s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorhouse) and the collected works of Charles Dickens (http://www.ancestry.com/cs/Satellite?c=Learning_C&childpagename=USLearningCenter%2FLearning_C%2FPageDefault&pagename=LearningWrapper&cid=1265125301323).

[Kadagar_AV]

MRD, I see your reasoning and agree.

We would have a way better society if we let everything lose, no state control and stupid legislation. The invisible hand will work, people have a inner set of morals and can judge things fairly by themselves, they are also good at making the effort of finding the relevant information.

And imagine the great leap in efficiency!! Take coal mining as an example, we waste so much money now to cater for an adults needs in the tunnels. Small children, say around the age of 7 (or as soon as they have the intellectual abilities to operate the machinery) could revolutionize the whole industry. Tunnels could be made less high, and small kids eyes are as well better suited to work in gloom.



You should read some Ha-Joon Chang mate... his book "23 things they don't tell you about capitalism" come to mind. That would probably get you thinking again :)

[Major Robert Dump]

Whoa Nellies,

Forgive my oversimplification. I am not suggesting for a second that workhouses and mining towns and child labor will work itself out if we just let capitlism do its job. Nor am I some hypocritical jugheaded libertarian who wants no government yet relies on the government (my favorite quote all time ever from a lady at a libertarian rally was "the government should stay out of our lives except the military, emergency like police and fire departments, and the postal service." The postal service, where does that fit in.
As I'm sure we are all familiar with the now-famous tea partier quote of "keep government out of my medicare" (or some variation thereof)

My arguments are in relation to the sky-is-falling mentality that pro union people push when states decide to stop being union shop, and also the fact that unions can easily get out of control and their mouths write checks their butts cannot cash. The Japanese and free trade didn't kill the auto industry all by themselves, ya know

[Greyblades]

Forgive my oversimplification. I am not suggesting for a second that workhouses and mining towns and child labor will work itself out if we just let capitlism do its job.
Mining towns were a bad thing?

[Major Robert Dump]

Mining towns were a bad thing?

Yeah, or company town, or whatever we called them.

Bascially, a company built a shanty town near the work site and rented the homes to the workers far above market cost, and had an overpriced commissary on site, a bank with excessive fees, etc.

Henry Ford's towns were some of the worst of all time, and he had the largest private army in the US at the time, a private police force of goons who went around and busted strikes and worker dissent. Unions helped put a stop to these things

[Greyblades]

Ah, US mining towns, gotcha.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, or company town, or whatever we called them.

Bascially, a company built a shanty town near the work site and rented the homes to the workers far above market cost, and had an overpriced commissary on site, a bank with excessive fees, etc.

Henry Ford's towns were some of the worst of all time, and he had the largest private army in the US at the time, a private police force of goons who went around and busted strikes and worker dissent. Unions helped put a stop to these things

I was unfamiliar with that part of US history and also wondered what you meant, cheers :)

But do go on and read the book I hinted at, a (in memory of-) Nobel Prize laureate who won't bore you to death :)