Civil War in Libya

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

* high fives Furunculus *




Louis - Thoroughly enjoys all of this imperialist powermongering. As apparantly do the natives. Somebody please remind me why we gave up on imperialism again?

Because the next bit involves the army.

Eh.

Anyway, if this new UN doctrine takes hold maybe we can stop shunting money into the army that should going in the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force. That would be better for Britain than acting as America's manpower reserve.

[PanzerJaeger]

They? One man?

I've documented the plight of black Africans under rebel control (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f4fff59c-560e-11e0-8de9-00144feab49a.html#axzz1W0HP6wzV) throughout this thread from multiple, well regarded sources over (http://www.npr.org/2011/02/25/134065767/-African-Migrants-Say-They-Face-Hostility-From-Libyans) and over (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/24/world/la-fg-libya-prisoners-20110324) and over (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122865814378541.html) and over (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/04/world/la-fg-libya-mercenaries-20110305) again, and it is hardly contained to a few isolated incidents. Libyans are an incredibly racist people, and have been long before (http://articles.latimes.com/2000/dec/16/news/mn-761) this 'revolution'. They have long resented (http://www.economist.com/node/392844) the presence of black Africans - abd, or slaves, as they call them - in their country, and have taken advantage of the situation - and NATO - to permanently put the blacks in their place (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304887904576395143328336026.html).

This is not some rhetorical game I'm playing; it is the bitter reality we, the West, have imposed on millions of Libyans. The truth is that this is not a revolution for all Libyans, it is revolution for a very specific group of Libyans to the detriment of an already vulnerable minority. These people, declared (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13622965) war criminals (http://www.hudson-ny.org/2323/icc-libyan-war-crimes), should not have Western backing.



And who; Got his ID? Would suck if he turned out to be a mercenary, eh?

Are you actually suggesting that there is any scenario in which such behavior is appropriate?

Also, your outrage at the unconfirmed use of foreign mercenaries is rather laughable. What do you think NATO is?



lol, you can't be serious. Firstly, a lack of evidence as seen by one person, does not debunk anything at all. Secondly, there is nothing in the first link nor the second to support such a confident conclusion (there are no obvious links between the two articles, either). One should not be surprised at the lack of captured mercenaries, why would a man getting paid by a tyrant to fight his people want to get captured by said people?


It was not a single person, it was one of a growing list of human rights organizations (http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/hrw-no-mercenaries-eastern-libya-0) that have conducted the only actual (instead of anecdotal) research I've yet seen on the issue and found no traces of foreign mercenaries in Libya... or any of the other claims used to justify NATO intervention.



Human Rights Watch says it has seen no evidence of mercenaries being used in eastern Libya. This contradicts widespread earlier reports in the international media that African soldiers had been flown in to fight rebels in the region as Muammar Gaddafi sought to keep control.

In an interview with Radio Netherlands Worldwide in Libya, Peter Bouckaert from Human Rights Watch said he had conducted research and found no proof of mercenaries being used. Investigator Bouckaert, who has been in the region for two weeks, told RNW that he had been to Al Bayda after receiving reports that 156 mercenaries had been arrested there.




Here's evidence of mercenaries from Chad, ID papers shown to camera at 03:13 (from outside Adjabiya in March)

Have you ever heard of dual citizenship (http://theclearview.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/gaddafis-african-mercenaries-or-are-they-libyans-from-fezzan/)? It's rather common in Libya. Moving right along...



But not only sub-Saharan African countries are accused of providing mercenaries, there has also been claims that Algerians have been fighting for Gaddafi; and early on in the conflict, it was claimed that the pilots of a regime yet that was shot down had Syrian passports. A couple of days ago, they also claimed to have capture mercenaries from Ukraine in Tripoli. I cannot confirm any of this stuff, but of course it would be convinient for the opposition fighters to convince themselves that most of the men they are fighting are not countrymen, but rather foreigners - making their fight more noble.

Of course you cannot confirm any of it, because (http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/02/24/is-al-jazeerah-tv-complicit-in-the-latest-vilification-of-libyas-blacks/) it is based (http://tomathon.com/mphp/2011/02/libyas-african-mercenary-problem/) in unsupported (http://www.pambazuka.org/en/category/features/71178) hysteria (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/03/06/libyas-hysteria-over-african-mercenaries.html).


Way to miss the point. From the very start of this war, PJ has tried to discredit the opposition fighters, first by claiming that they were al-Qaeda sympathisers, and when that turned out not to be so efficient, they were racists instead.

Not at all. The rebels have discredited themselves with countless public lynchings, beheadings, and mutilations of innocent black workers. I will be glad to link to any and all of the above if the moderators OK it.


..........



A single youtube video in a different language is pathetic evidence for something you claim is wide spread. If this sort of thing happened on a large scale, do you not think the news agencies would have caught wind of it considering there is no real internal security to stop such information leaking? It's not like the Qaddafi era where journalists movement is restricted, in the East the journos could move freely.

Oh but they have... The New York Times, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, The Wall Street Journal.... If you choose to ignore the truth, that is between you and your conscience.


Yes, ISOLATED incidents of such attacks have been reported but it isn't widespread and more importantly orchestrated as you suggest. The coordination of affairs and the administrative functions of the NTC has been pretty impressive considering the lack infrastructure. Those rebels also seem pretty disciplined too, or would you care to explain why the "lynch mobs" you predicted haven't been seen on my tv screen yet? or is it some sort of NATO conspiracy?

There's my favorite phrase! Isolated incidents. If only. (http://www.speroforum.com/a/49907/Libya-UN-alarmed-at-reports-of-violence-against-subSaharan-migrants)


I find it remarkable that you, an American, are trying to sing the praises of a regime which is directly responsible for the death of hundreds of your countrymen. I can't comprehend why you herald the death of the Desert Dog with almost a sense of remorse.

I could care less about what happens to Mr. Kaddafi. That being said, I would be willing to wager that many more Americans were killed by Eastern Libyans in Iraq than over Lockerbie - many are the same Libyans who the West is now supporting.


Sure, things could get worse, but is all of it not even a little bit worth it if in a decades time we can look at Libya and say yes, what happened here was a good thing?

But it wasn't. That's the thing. This was a horrible event for millions of innocent Libyans that has permanently altered their already vulnerable status in Libyan society. This was a good thing for a very narrowly defined group of disenfranchised eastern Libyan Arabs - at the expense of their black countrymen.


These things may take place in isolated incidents but you have to remember, this is war. Look what happened when the Russians swept into Germany..

Are you seriously citing the rape of Eastern Germany as an example of a positive occupation and outcome?

And speaking of war, why are proponents of this conflict so hypocritical in their suspension of morality? 'It's war'... 'These things happen'...

Well, you're right, the truth is, this was a war from the outset. Unlike Tunisia and Egypt, the Eastern Libyans immediately sought to violently wrest control of social buildings, police stations, and armories from the government, as they've been trying to do for years.

Here's another, somewhat less convenient truth. No Western nation would tolerate similar acts. The US, for example, has put down several violent rebellions with equally violent force. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_raid_on_Harpers_Ferry) what happens when you storm an armory in America with an intent to incite a rebellion.

So why then is it an atrocity when Kaddafi and the internationally recognized legitimate government of Libya resists an armed rebellion while the widespread, vicious ethnic cleansing of the nation's black population is written off as a few isolated incidents? Selective outrage?

If factions within Libya - most of whom were perfectly comfortable working for Kaddafi until it was convenient not to - want to engage in civil war and all the nasty excesses that go along with it, that is their business. I'll lament the dead and move on. However, I'll be damned if I'm going to be even indirectly implicated in such a mess, especially under the guise of protecting civilians from a nonexistent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/amnesty-questions-claim-that-gaddafi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html) impending genocide when the closest thing to such an event is actually being carried out by our 'allies'.



Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya.

Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since the start of the insurrection on 15 February, claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them. It also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.

...

Donatella Rovera, senior crisis response adviser for Amnesty, who was in Libya for three months after the start of the uprising, says that "we have not found any evidence or a single victim of rape or a doctor who knew about somebody being raped".

She stresses this does not prove that mass rape did not occur but there is no evidence to show that it did. Liesel Gerntholtz, head of women's rights at Human Rights Watch, which also investigated the charge of mass rape, said: "We have not been able to find evidence."

In one instance two captured pro-Gaddafi soldiers presented to the international media by the rebels claimed their officers, and later themselves, had raped a family with four daughters. Ms Rovera says that when she and a colleague, both fluent in Arabic, interviewed the two detainees, one 17 years old and one 21, alone and in separate rooms, they changed their stories and gave differing accounts of what had happened. "They both said they had not participated in the rape and just heard about it," she said. "They told different stories about whether or not the girls' hands were tied, whether their parents were present and about how they were dressed."

Seemingly the strongest evidence for mass rape appeared to come from a Libyan psychologist, Dr Seham Sergewa, who says she distributed 70,000 questionnaires in rebel-controlled areas and along the Tunisian border, of which over 60,000 were returned. Some 259 women volunteered that they had been raped, of whom Dr Sergewa said she interviewed 140 victims.

Asked by Diana Eltahawy, Amnesty International's specialist on Libya, if it would be possible to meet any of these women, Dr Sergewa replied that "she had lost contact with them" and was unable to provide documentary evidence.

The accusation that Viagra had been distributed to Gaddafi's troops to encourage them to rape women in rebel areas first surfaced in March after Nato had destroyed tanks advancing on Benghazi. Ms Rovera says that rebels dealing with the foreign media in Benghazi started showing journalists packets of Viagra, claiming they came from burned-out tanks, though it is unclear why the packets were not charred.

Credible evidence of rape came when Eman al-Obeidy burst into a hotel in Tripoli on 26 March to tell journalists she had been gang-raped before being dragged away by the Libyan security services.

Rebels have repeatedly charged that mercenary troops from Central and West Africa have been used against them. The Amnesty investigation found there was no evidence for this. "Those shown to journalists as foreign mercenaries were later quietly released," says Ms Rovera. "Most were sub-Saharan migrants working in Libya without documents."

Others were not so lucky and were lynched or executed. Ms Rovera found two bodies of migrants in the Benghazi morgue and others were dumped on the outskirts of the city. She says: "The politicians kept talking about mercenaries, which inflamed public opinion and the myth has continued because they were released without publicity."

Nato intervention started on 19 March with air attacks to protect people in Benghazi from massacre by advancing pro-Gaddafi troops. There is no doubt that civilians did expect to be killed after threats of vengeance from Gaddafi. During the first days of the uprising in eastern Libya, security forces shot and killed demonstrators and people attending their funerals, but there is no proof of mass killing of civilians on the scale of Syria or Yemen.

Most of the fighting during the first days of the uprising was in Benghazi, where 100 to 110 people were killed, and the city of Baida to the east, where 59 to 64 were killed, says Amnesty. Most of these were probably protesters, though some may have obtained weapons.

Amateur videos show some captured Gaddafi supporters being shot dead and eight badly charred bodies were found in the remains of the military headquarters in Benghazi, which may be those of local boys who disappeared at that time.

There is no evidence that aircraft or heavy anti-aircraft machine guns were used against crowds. Spent cartridges picked up after protesters were shot at came from Kalashnikovs or similar calibre weapons.

The Amnesty findings confirm a recent report by the authoritative International Crisis Group, which found that while the Gaddafi regime had a history of brutally repressing opponents, there was no question of "genocide".

The report adds that "much Western media coverage has from the outset presented a very one-sided view of the logic of events, portraying the protest movement as entirely peaceful and repeatedly suggesting that the regime's security forces were unaccountably massacring unarmed demonstrators who presented no security challenge".

[Furunculus]

Because the next bit involves the army.

Eh.

Anyway, if this new UN doctrine takes hold maybe we can stop shunting money into the army that should going in the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force. That would be better for Britain than acting as America's manpower reserve.

hear, hear!

need us some strategic raiding.

[Fisherking]

@ PJ

I read quite a few of your links. I know you are protesting the treatment of the immigrants but what I keep turning up with is a bit different conclusion. Not that those mistreatments are not taking place!

I think they are not carrying as much weight because that messes with what good guys they are and what a worthwhile intervention this is.

The mercenaries are specters, the rapes are specters and who knows what else.

I am not defending the current regime either, and I expect the vast numbers of those fighting have the best motives.

I just fear it will end in a new dictatorship and this is more about money and power, and who gets it.

[Furunculus]

re R2P in libya:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8722851/NATO-has-proved-the-doubters-wrong.html

[Viking]

I've documented the plight of black Africans under rebel control (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f4fff59c-560e-11e0-8de9-00144feab49a.html#axzz1W0HP6wzV) throughout this thread from multiple, well regarded sources over (http://www.npr.org/2011/02/25/134065767/-African-Migrants-Say-They-Face-Hostility-From-Libyans) and over (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/24/world/la-fg-libya-prisoners-20110324) and over (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122865814378541.html) and over (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/04/world/la-fg-libya-mercenaries-20110305) again, and it is hardly contained to a few isolated incidents. Libyans are an incredibly racist people, and have been long before (http://articles.latimes.com/2000/dec/16/news/mn-761) this 'revolution'. They have long resented (http://www.economist.com/node/392844) the presence of black Africans - abd, or slaves, as they call them - in their country, and have taken advantage of the situation - and NATO - to permanently put the blacks in their place (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304887904576395143328336026.html).

It would not have been this thread, but rather some other thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?136219-Leptis-Magna-about-to-be-bombed/page3). In which I cannot, for instance, find the AJE link nor the npr link that you have just provided. That aside, most of them does not show more of that in the video (well, I cannot access the ft.com article..); which is what I am looking for: outright atrocities. I did though notice the following in the npr text:


QUIST-ARCTON: This Turkish oil worker, who's managed to escape from Libya, told the BBC he'd witnessed violence against his African colleagues.

Unidentified Man: (Through translator) We left behind our friends from Chad. We left behind their bodies. We had 70 or 80 people from Chad working for our company. They cut them dead with pruning shears and axes, attacking them, saying you're providing troops for Gadhafi. The Sudanese, the Chadians were massacred. We saw it ourselves.

Which is relevant and interesting; and could hint at this being more widespread. However, the incident above could also be somewhat isolated, so more research would be needed.

I have noticed lately that there appears to have been quite an anti-African sentiment in the Libyan poputlation prior to the uprising; as suggested in one of your links, though connecting this to racism outright is a bit premature. The living standard in Libya is not particularly good despite all the oil wealth, and Gaddafi's flirting with sub-Saharans could be important (this could potentially explain why the Egyptians were not targeted). Again, more research is needed in order to get to the heart of the issue.


This is not some rhetorical game I'm playing; it is the bitter reality we, the West, have imposed on millions of Libyans. The truth is that this is not a revolution for all Libyans, it is revolution for a very specific group of Libyans to the detriment of an already vulnerable minority.


Be careful with the use of 'millions', since there are only something like 6 of them in Libya in total. And for most of these millions, the NATO air strikes did not impose much of a new reality, they had already experienced revolts in their cities and a brutal armed response to them - from Tripoli to Benghazi.

It is clear that Gaddafi has not exactly been making things easier the for the sub-Saharans in Libya, and according to one of your links (http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/02/24/is-al-jazeerah-tv-complicit-in-the-latest-vilification-of-libyas-blacks/), he said:


During his visit to Rome in August 2010 Colonel Muammar Gaddafi spoke at a ceremony in Rome and warned
, “We don’t know what will happen, what will be the reaction of the white and Christian Europeans faced with this influx of starving and ignorant Africans.”

so, not quite the angel this mr. Gaddafi. Chances are that a new democratic rule could more easily persuaded into a more acceptable stance than a stubborn dictator.


These people, declared (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13622965) war criminals (http://www.hudson-ny.org/2323/icc-libyan-war-crimes), should not have Western backing.

No, those people shouldn't. But they are not backed as individuals.



Are you actually suggesting that there is any scenario in which such behavior is appropriate?

No, but I do not express moral disapproval at any opportunity given. It would destroy that piece of evidence of yours, that's why it would 'suck'.


Also, your outrage at the unconfirmed use of foreign mercenaries is rather laughable. What do you think NATO is?

I do not have any 'outrage' at use of mercenaries. NATO consists of professional military forces responsible to their commanders not through money, but through their country of origin.



It was not a single person, it was one of a growing list of human rights organizations (http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/hrw-no-mercenaries-eastern-libya-0) that have conducted the only actual (instead of anecdotal) research I've yet seen on the issue and found no traces of foreign mercenaries in Libya...

I just posted a Time (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2090205,00.html?xid=fblike)link on the previous page, and one from the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8349414/African-mercenaries-in-Libya-nervously-await-their-fate.html). Given the chaotic situation, I do not find the research conducted thus far as having too much weight. It is pretty weird that the findings by Nick Meo is not mentioned in the report, and that further strengthens my fear for the report's accuracy.


or any of the other claims used to justify NATO intervention.

I am sure there would be plenty of masssacres if the rebellion was crushed; a dictator is not safe on his throne if the people dare to revolt. But the arguments put forth in the UNSC and similar, are not at all my own arguments for the intervention, so I do not feel particularly devoted to their defense.





Have you ever heard of dual citizenship (http://theclearview.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/gaddafis-african-mercenaries-or-are-they-libyans-from-fezzan/)? It's rather common in Libya. Moving right along...

If they were brought in from Chad and given a Libyan citizenship, that would still make them mercenaries. Just a more clever way of securing their loyality.



Of course you cannot confirm any of it, because (http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/02/24/is-al-jazeerah-tv-complicit-in-the-latest-vilification-of-libyas-blacks/) it is based (http://tomathon.com/mphp/2011/02/libyas-african-mercenary-problem/) in unsupported (http://www.pambazuka.org/en/category/features/71178) hysteria (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/03/06/libyas-hysteria-over-african-mercenaries.html).

Tsk. Those links appear to me to primarily concern sub-Saharans, I was specifically talking about people not from those areas. It was also irrelevant to the point whether or not the reports were fantasy. The point was that not only sub-Saharans were accused of being mercenaries: it does not at all take racism to produce a mercenary scare.




Not at all. The rebels have discredited themselves with countless public lynchings, beheadings, and mutilations of innocent black workers. I will be glad to link to any and all of the above if the moderators OK it.


Videos will not suffice, they are not a proper investegation. Benghazi is alone a city of over 600 000, it would take quite a few videos in order to prove that the majority of them are into it.





Here's another, somewhat less convenient truth. No Western nation would tolerate similar acts. The US, for example, has put down several violent rebellions with equally violent force. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_raid_on_Harpers_Ferry) what happens when you storm an armory in America with an intent to incite a rebellion.


That is completely irrelevant, Libya was a dictatorship. The feelings of a dictatorship does not matter.

[Adrian II]

Panzer, welcome to the real world. This is what happens when dictatorships are disbanded.

In 1991 the peoples of former Yugoslavia engaged in bloody civil conflict when their country fell apart and the centre could not hold. In the resulting anomia (an anarchic state of lawlessness and lack of effective authority) many scores were settled.

In Iraq after 2003 Shiites began to kill Sunnis and Sunnis began to kill Kurds and vice versa. Prejudice was rife and it ran very deep because it was allowed to fester for dozens and in some cases for hundreds of years because people in Iraq never had freedom of movement, freedom of speech, reliable sources of information and proper education in our sense of the word.

In Afghanistan the 2001 invasion was an open invitation to tribes to settle age-old scores.

So I'm not surprised at all that similar things would happen in a tribal society like Libya where the top gorilla has just been chased off in a very bloody fight.

On balance I think Nato has done the right thing. At least there is now a opening for a different kind of Libyan government and society. Apart from the anti-black sentiment (which was fostered by Gaddafi just as well) there are lots of other urgent issues that will need to be adressed. Let's hope the new governmemt will succeed. I think every one on this forum will agree that this is not a run course.

AII

[Viking]

That is one line reasoning I haven't felt the need to invoke too heavily, given that the claims of racism are not properly backed up; though I'm sure ethnic differences could help polishing the final result.

But of course, what really matters here is the abolition of a dictatorship. Sure, many people will become victims of war and either perish or be maimed for life; but everday life in a dictatorship is also war - a war between the government and the people. People will suddenly disappear to never come back, or they will come back as crushed individuals. What would take the greatest toll of four decades of Gaddafi's dictatorship, and a potential four new under his son(s) - and this war - is not so clear. If the numbers provided here (http://www.hrw.org/legacy/english/docs/2006/06/28/libya13636.htm)of the 'Abu Salim prison massacre' is correct, I think the dictatorship would win, if numbers was all that mattered (but is it?).

So, give the people their freedom; then give them more thorough advice on how be just while excercising their said freedom. Roughly speaking.

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzer, welcome to the real world.

Ah, there's another one of those patronizing, clichéd little phrases that washes away a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately, the West is living in a fantasy world.

In our fantasy...

We believe that Britain and France are still relevant players on the international stage. They can still entertain neocolonial fantasies under fun new monikers like R2P, despite near complete military impotence. They believe that they have set an important precedent for future intervention, when in fact, from a geopolitical level, the most important impact of this action is the perceived futility and danger of acquiescing in the West's nuclear non-proliferation efforts among the world's dictators. It will be difficult to launch future freedom missions as every tin pot colonel with an ounce of common sense runs to North Korea to buy their own reactors.

We believe that the United States has learned 'valuable lessons' from Iraq and Afghanistan, when in fact the most important lessons have been completely ignored. Instead of relying on careful, objective analysis of a given situation, America is still willing to go to war based on thinnest of evidence, most of it very obviously manufactured by the opposition. And after making the grave decision to go to war - to take ownership of the conflict and its externalities - America has apparently decided that instead of committing enough forces to ensure the freedom and security of every poor bastard we're supposed to be freeing (hello, Iraq?), we'll go the opposite direction and let the locals sort it out themselves as to ensure plausible deniability when the inevitable slaughter ensues.

We believe that NATO is still a viable fighting force, instead of an underfunded, decrepit organization barely capable of ousting the weakest of regimes. Instead of retrenching and investing the resources necessary to ensure the defense of North America and Europe, we envision a bright future of continued interventions outside of that sphere against flaccid regimes on a shoe string budget in the name of freedom for all, instead of freedom for select groups to the extreme detriment of many others as has been the case in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya.

We believe that we've rid the Arab Street of a vicious dictator and a committed enemy of the West, when in fact our governments were more than comfortable in bed with him, sucking the oil from his teat, until it ceased being convenient. Further, we breathlessly repeat wild stories of a mad man slaughtering his people and on the precipice of genocide, despite absolutely no evidence of any of it. All the while, there is real evidence that dictators across the region actually are using overwhelming military force against defenseless protestors, and our governments struggle to even formally denounce them.

Most regrettably, we've bought into the good versus evil narrative to such a degree that we actually believe we've brought freedom to the Libyan people, instead of picked sides in a sectarian civil war fought largely between elements of the very same regime that we're supposedly fighting against. Our glasses are so heavily rose tinted that they allow us to see only academics instead of regime henchmen, Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans, and tribal leaders looking to settle scores. Those glasses are so tinted, so thick, that they allow us to excuse our own complicity in the harassment, marginalization, oppression, and misery of millions as simply the normal occurrences of 'the real world'. :shame:

What is happening in Libya may be representative of the real world, but it is a world we chose to jump in to, feet first and with no thought to the negative consequences. Real people are dying, and their blood is on our hands - not by necessity, but by choice.


(Here is the text of the Financial Time's piece posted earlier. I did not realize it was subscription only. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by reproducing it.)




Sub-Saharan Africans bear brunt of rebels’ ire

By Katrina Manson in Nairobi

Published: March 29 2011 23:57 | Last updated: March 29 2011 23:57



As rumours of black mercenaries flown and trucked into Libya in their thousands have swirled about the country, poor sub-Saharan African migrant workers have borne the brunt of rebel outrage at the claims.

Aid groups, long barred access to the country, estimate anything from 500,000 to 1.5m black Africans may be based in Libya, many of them illegally.

United Nations agencies have set up hotlines for those trapped inside the country and have so far chartered flights for 59,000 people who have managed to escape to the border.

“Even before this, black Africans in general are not liked at all, but this [mercenary] theory has made the situation tremendously worse,” one black African man, holed up at home and too worried about reprisals to be identified by name or nationality, said by telephone from Tripoli.

Like many black Africans, he speaks of rebel sympathisers in the capital Tripoli clamouring outside his door at night, warning him he will be the first to be killed when the regime falls. For a while, he fled to a farm on the outskirts of the capital with a dozen or so others, until the farm owner found them and chased them out. His job stopped with the crisis, and this week he was robbed of all his rent money at knifepoint in a bread line.

The UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said it has become a “poisonous” atmosphere for sub-Saharan Africans in Libya, noting youth gangs this week broke down the doors to threaten an Eritrean family in hiding for three weeks, and that there are unconfirmed reports of some killed.

The UN migration agency said: “So far the advice we’ve been giving is if you’re in a safe place, then stay for the time being.”

The threats mean that some among the poorest and least respected of Libyan society are now rooting for Gaddafi’s regime to prevail.

Says the man in hiding: “Some people here among the black African community tend to support the regime purely on the basis of wanting to survive. If the rebels win, they’re going to unleash their terror on black Africans.”

It is a sorry development for many who sought sanctuary in the country, fleeing war or political persecution at home. Five years ago, aged 32, the man walked across the Sahara desert, exhausted as some of his fellow travellers’ legs gave way, in the hope of reaching respite in Libya. His salary of $300 a month was three times what he might make back home, but his longed-for better life was characterised by constant racist abuse, being beaten on the streets and eventually being taken on by employers who purposefully kept his status illegal so he could not leave.

As well as a bulk of Egyptian, Tunisian and Bangladeshi workers, UN agencies have flown people home to Burkina Faso, Chad, Ghana, Guinea, Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Sudan and Togo. Some African embassies have managed to escort their citizens out, hundreds at a time. In all, nearly 330,000 people have made it to Libya’s borders in the past month, crossing into Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria and Niger.

Many more are waiting. The UN migration agency has received reports of tens of thousands of Africans stranded in Sabha, for example, a desert airbase rumoured to be receiving mercenaries from Algerian-flown planes, claims denied by Algeria. Tripoli’s most popular black neighbourhood is still full.

“I regret crossing the Sahara,” said the man in Tripoli. “I would rather starve than try to cross the Sahara again on foot.”





That is one line reasoning I haven't felt the need to invoke too heavily, given that the claims of racism are not properly backed up


Not properly backed up? Racism in Libya is very well documented (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2011/0306/How-Qaddafi-helped-fuel-fury-toward-Africans-in-Libya/(page)/2). It amazes me that the most ardent proponents of this conflict often know the least about the intricacies of Libyan society. :dizzy2:



'They call you a slave'

Hussein Zachariah, a welder from Ghana who worked for a Turkish construction company in Benghazi for three years before conflict began, says he was often verbally abused on the street and had stones thrown at him.

“They say a lot of things about you,” says Mr. Zachariah, no relation to Ibrahim Zachariah. “They call you a slave.”

He claimed that his friend was accused of being a mercenary fighter and that he witnessed him being severely beaten by “protesters” on the street.

Racism nothing new in Libya

Racism toward migrant laborers from sub-Saharan Africa is not a new phenomenon in Libya.

In 2000 the Brussels-based International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) condemned attacks and alleged killings of migrant workers from Ghana, Cameroon, Sudan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Chad and Nigeria allegedly by young Libyans targeting black migrants particularly in the East of the country, after the government ordered a crackdown on illegal migrant workers. According to a statement made in 2000 by the ICFTU the attacks “were provoked by news portraying African migrants as being involved in drug-trafficking or dealing in alcohol.”

Human Rights Watch also documented racist attacks on migrant workers and asylum seekers from sub-Saharan in Libya in 2006 and 2009. The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) has long put pressure on Libya to address the issue of racial discrimination against black African migrants. The issue of racial discrimination against black Africans was most recently raised at the United Nations Human Rights Council in February of 2010.

[Centurion1]

Ah, there's another one of those patronizing, clichéd little phrases that washes away a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately, the West is living in a fantasy world.

In our fantasy...

We believe that Britain and France are still relevant players on the international stage. They can still entertain neocolonial fantasies under fun new monikers like R2P, despite near complete military impotence. They believe that they have set an important precedent for future intervention, when in fact, from a geopolitical level, the most important impact of this action is the perceived futility and danger of acquiescing in the West's nuclear non-proliferation efforts among the world's dictators. It will be difficult to launch future freedom missions as every tin pot colonel with an ounce of common sense runs to North Korea to buy their own reactors.

We believe that the United States has learned 'valuable lessons' from Iraq and Afghanistan, when in fact the most important lessons have been completely ignored. Instead of relying on careful, objective analysis of a given situation, America is still willing to go to war based on thinnest of evidence, most of it very obviously manufactured by the opposition. And after making the grave decision to go to war - to take ownership of the conflict and its externalities - America has apparently decided that instead of committing enough forces to ensure the freedom and security of every poor bastard we're supposed to be freeing, we'll go the opposite direction and let the locals sort it out themselves as to ensure plausible deniability when the inevitable slaughter ensues.

We believe that NATO is still a viable fighting force, instead of an underfunded, decrepit organization barely capable of ousting the weakest of regimes. We envision a bright future of continued interventions in the name of freedom for all, instead of freedom for select groups to the extreme detriment of many others as has been the case in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya.

We believe that we've rid the Arab Street of a vicious dictator and a committed enemy of the West, when in fact our governments were more than comfortable in bed with him, sucking the oil from his teat, until it ceased being convenient. Further, we breathlessly repeat wild stories of a mad man slaughtering his people and on the precipice of genocide, despite absolutely no evidence of any of it. All the while, there is real evidence that dictators across the region actually are using overwhelming military force against defenseless protestors, and our governments struggle to even formally denounce them.

Most regrettably, we've bought into the good versus bad narrative to such a degree that we actually believe we've brought freedom to the Libyan people, instead of picked sides in a sectarian civil war fought largely between elements of the very same regime that we're supposedly fighting against. Our glasses are so heavily rose tinted that they only allow us to see only academics instead of regime henchmen, Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans, and tribal leaders looking to settle scores. Those glasses are so tinted, so thick, that they allow us to excuse our own complicity in the harassment, marginalization, oppression, and misery of millions as simply the normal occurrences of 'the real world'. :shame:

What is happening in Libya may be representative of the real world, but it is a world we chose to jump in to, feet first and with no thought to the negative consequences. Real people are dying, and their blood is on our hands - not by necessity, but by choice.


(Here is the text of the Financial Time's piece posted earlier. I did not realize it was subscription only. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by reproducing it.)




Sub-Saharan Africans bear brunt of rebels’ ire

By Katrina Manson in Nairobi

Published: March 29 2011 23:57 | Last updated: March 29 2011 23:57



As rumours of black mercenaries flown and trucked into Libya in their thousands have swirled about the country, poor sub-Saharan African migrant workers have borne the brunt of rebel outrage at the claims.

Aid groups, long barred access to the country, estimate anything from 500,000 to 1.5m black Africans may be based in Libya, many of them illegally.

United Nations agencies have set up hotlines for those trapped inside the country and have so far chartered flights for 59,000 people who have managed to escape to the border.

“Even before this, black Africans in general are not liked at all, but this [mercenary] theory has made the situation tremendously worse,” one black African man, holed up at home and too worried about reprisals to be identified by name or nationality, said by telephone from Tripoli.

Like many black Africans, he speaks of rebel sympathisers in the capital Tripoli clamouring outside his door at night, warning him he will be the first to be killed when the regime falls. For a while, he fled to a farm on the outskirts of the capital with a dozen or so others, until the farm owner found them and chased them out. His job stopped with the crisis, and this week he was robbed of all his rent money at knifepoint in a bread line.

The UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said it has become a “poisonous” atmosphere for sub-Saharan Africans in Libya, noting youth gangs this week broke down the doors to threaten an Eritrean family in hiding for three weeks, and that there are unconfirmed reports of some killed.

The UN migration agency said: “So far the advice we’ve been giving is if you’re in a safe place, then stay for the time being.”

The threats mean that some among the poorest and least respected of Libyan society are now rooting for Gaddafi’s regime to prevail.

Says the man in hiding: “Some people here among the black African community tend to support the regime purely on the basis of wanting to survive. If the rebels win, they’re going to unleash their terror on black Africans.”

It is a sorry development for many who sought sanctuary in the country, fleeing war or political persecution at home. Five years ago, aged 32, the man walked across the Sahara desert, exhausted as some of his fellow travellers’ legs gave way, in the hope of reaching respite in Libya. His salary of $300 a month was three times what he might make back home, but his longed-for better life was characterised by constant racist abuse, being beaten on the streets and eventually being taken on by employers who purposefully kept his status illegal so he could not leave.

As well as a bulk of Egyptian, Tunisian and Bangladeshi workers, UN agencies have flown people home to Burkina Faso, Chad, Ghana, Guinea, Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Sudan and Togo. Some African embassies have managed to escort their citizens out, hundreds at a time. In all, nearly 330,000 people have made it to Libya’s borders in the past month, crossing into Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria and Niger.

Many more are waiting. The UN migration agency has received reports of tens of thousands of Africans stranded in Sabha, for example, a desert airbase rumoured to be receiving mercenaries from Algerian-flown planes, claims denied by Algeria. Tripoli’s most popular black neighbourhood is still full.

“I regret crossing the Sahara,” said the man in Tripoli. “I would rather starve than try to cross the Sahara again on foot.”





Not properly backed up? Racism in Libya is very well documented (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2011/0306/How-Qaddafi-helped-fuel-fury-toward-Africans-in-Libya/(page)/2). It amazes me that the most ardent proponents of this conflict often know the least about the intricacies of Libyan society. :dizzy2:



'They call you a slave'

Hussein Zachariah, a welder from Ghana who worked for a Turkish construction company in Benghazi for three years before conflict began, says he was often verbally abused on the street and had stones thrown at him.

“They say a lot of things about you,” says Mr. Zachariah, no relation to Ibrahim Zachariah. “They call you a slave.”

He claimed that his friend was accused of being a mercenary fighter and that he witnessed him being severely beaten by “protesters” on the street.

Racism nothing new in Libya

Racism toward migrant laborers from sub-Saharan Africa is not a new phenomenon in Libya.

In 2000 the Brussels-based International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) condemned attacks and alleged killings of migrant workers from Ghana, Cameroon, Sudan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Chad and Nigeria allegedly by young Libyans targeting black migrants particularly in the East of the country, after the government ordered a crackdown on illegal migrant workers. According to a statement made in 2000 by the ICFTU the attacks “were provoked by news portraying African migrants as being involved in drug-trafficking or dealing in alcohol.”

Human Rights Watch also documented racist attacks on migrant workers and asylum seekers from sub-Saharan in Libya in 2006 and 2009. The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) has long put pressure on Libya to address the issue of racial discrimination against black African migrants. The issue of racial discrimination against black Africans was most recently raised at the United Nations Human Rights Council in February of 2010.

I love you sometimes PJ. But don't expect too much in lieu of response. When I raised the same ideas regarding French and British excessive ambitions they weren't even mentioned. At best you will be likely to receive a patronizing, "You just don't understand what the real world is like."

Fabulous writing though.

[Fragony]

Aye Panzer, mentioned it earlier but they just don't believe me. Blacks, if there are any left atm as they are seen as mercenaries (which a lot were), will have to flee. South please thx.

[Fisherking]

If you wade through PJ’s links you will find that Mercenaries in this conflict are as hard to find as Weapons of Mass Destruction were in Iraq.

I am no fan of the Libyan Government or Gaddafi but it would seem that most of the “information” we are getting about mercenaries and atrocities against the people is misinformation.

It is either hysteria or an example of the quote “in war the first casualty is the truth”.

Just because it is told to you by news commentators or governments does not make it true.

[Fragony]

I haven't read PJ's link, arab racism isn't all that new to me, blacks are regarded sub-human. Ghaddafi recruited a lot of them and that is going to be very ugly for blacks, if it hasn't already. Doubt you will find a living black in rebel-controlled area's, they are probably all dead. I got some lovely footage of lynchings if you can stomach it

[Adrian II]

We envision a bright future of continued interventions in the name of freedom for all

:laugh4:

I don't think anybody on this board believes that. Libya was an exception. You can bet Nato is not going to intervene in Syria, for instance, unless Syria itself seeks a confrontation. And Nato would be quite capable of warding off a Syrian threat, it isn't that powerless.

I seriously doubt that Libya is going to be a full-grown democracy. To the outside world the rebels are represented by the amiable and decent Mustafa Abdul Jalil, the former Justice Minister, but among the rebel fighters there are quite a few groups that have ties to Al Qaeda and other islamist movements and that hold similar political views. Apart from that there is a huge potential for renewed tribal conflict. I think we will yet see quite a few reports of score-settling, not just between Arabs and blacks.

You are right that the Western states are manipulating public perception of this conflict. They did so in 1999 with regard to Kosovo, in 2001 with regard to Afghanistan and in 2003 with regard to Iraq. Ever since I was a member of this board I have tried to refute such propaganda. I don't remember you being so sceptical then, on the contrary. And I'm not sure that I'm happy with your late conversion. It seems to be rooted in a desire to bash Arabs more than in any genuine concern for human rights.

AII

[Hax]

I seriously doubt that Libya is going to be a full-grown democracy.

If the majority of the people seek an Islamic state, is that undemocratic? What constitutes a "full-grown democracy"?

[Adrian II]

If the majority of the people seek an Islamic state, is that undemocratic? What constitutes a "full-grown democracy"?

Do we really need to go there? A question like this could only be asked by someone who enjoys full democracy and doesn't even understand or value it.

AII

[Fragony]

If the majority of the people seek an Islamic state, is that undemocratic? What constitutes a "full-grown democracy"?

They would chose to be an enemy ideologically. But AdrianII is going to laugh very at me for saying that so I'm of

[Adrian II]

They would chose to be an enemy ideologically. But AdrianII is going to laugh very at me for saying that so I'm of

Good God, it wouldn't be the first time that the West creates it own enemies. :laugh4:

AII

[rory_20_uk]

If you wade through PJ’s links you will find that Mercenaries in this conflict are as hard to find as Weapons of Mass Destruction were in Iraq.

The real toughie is that if someone is dead there's no evidence that they were a mercenary, and if they're not dead they'll not stick around. I don't see what the big deal about Mercs is anyway. There's no issue when America uses them in any of its conflicts.

The rebels won - good. Then we should get the hell out of there ASAP. They want help? We want oil. They pay for assistance and it's a simple business arrangement, and not interfering.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If the majority of the people seek an Islamic state, is that undemocratic? What constitutes a "full-grown democracy"?

Islamic states have dreadful track records, which is why I find it odd that progressive Bahrain gets lumped in with Syria when the former was trying to prevent the actual outbreak of revolution and is already cautiously moving towards democracy and firmly away from Islamicism.

In any case, the rise of Islamic states has little to do with positive political consent and far more to do with a lack of opposition.

As a point of contrast, do you think the majority wanted a theocratic autocracy in England in the 1650's? Or was it just that the religious fundamentalists had all the power?

[Fragony]

Good God, it wouldn't be the first time that the West creates it own enemies. :laugh4:

AII

ha, you are just as predictable as Libya's plunge in a nightmare of civil war. Panzer is sooooooo right, what do you know of these countries exactly

[Adrian II]

The rebels won - good. Then we should get the hell out of there ASAP. They want help? We want oil. They pay for assistance and it's a simple business arrangement, and not interfering.

The West has committed itself in Libya for years and years, if only to prevent either total anarchy or the establishment of a fundamentalist regime. There is no way around it. You break it, etcetera.


ha, you are just as predictable as Libya's plunge in a nightmare of civil war. Panzer is sooooooo right, what do you know of these countries exactly

Lol, what exactly are you trying to say?

AII

[Fragony]

The West has committed itself in Libya for years and years, if only to prevent either total anarchy or the establishment of a fundamentalist regime. There is no way around it. You break it, etcetera.



Lol, what exactly are you trying to say?

AII

What do you think is going to happen? It is going to be horrible

[Adrian II]

What do you think is going to happen? It is going to be horrible

Let me echo your question: what do you and Panzer know about these countries?

All we know is there is a lot of resentment, tribalism and backwardness. So yes, it may all go horribly wrong, I said so from the start. But I refuse to buy into the the notion that Arabs are congenitally incapable of doing the right thing, anywhere, any time.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

The West has committed itself in Libya for years and years, if only to prevent either total anarchy or the establishment of a fundamentalist regime. There is no way around it. You break it, etcetera.

Rubbish. As soon as the UN mandate is over, we can be off. Leave it to the Arab League or the African Federation to sort it out. That's what they're for, isn't it?

We didn't break it, they broke it themselves.

Has China / Saudi Arabia flooded Europe and the USA with free money after we broke our financial system? No - apparently it's our problem to solve. This is theirs.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

Let me echo your question: what do you and Panzer know about these countries?

All we know is there is a lot of resentment, tribalism and backwardness. So yes, it may all go horribly wrong, I said so from the start. But I refuse to buy into the the notion that Arabs are congenitally incapable of doing the right thing, anywhere, any time.

AII

I probably know more about it than you do, as I know that there is going to be civil war, and it is going to be bad

[ICantSpellDawg]

I probably know more about it than you do, as I know that there is going to be civil war, and it is going to be bad

There is a civil war and it is bad, but I agree with Adrian and I believe that it is coming to an end in the near future. There is this notion that "these people" simply cannot have a civil and responsible society; that is inane. These people are us, and until they develop the ability to make a life for and educate themselves, we will all continue to be screwed by backwardness, poverty and extremism - around the world.

I just hope we can muster up the will to use the same "iron diplomacy" with Syria, and then on to the next stepped on nation that can muster the gumption to eviscerate it's illegitimate leadership. (not in agreement with Adrian). We've found our sweet spot - support the insurgency and encourage the right path.

Let's all get along, we are all rich/middle class, white kids/adult kids who spend most of our free time arguing on video game forums. We are probably not experts, but I'd bet that we are all knowledgeable enough to have a more illuminating conversation about geopolitics than most groups of rich white kids who argue about geopolitics on world of warcraft or GTA forums, etc.

[Adrian II]

Rubbish. As soon as the UN mandate is over, we can be off.

Oh sure, technically we can. But since we have invested in this thing and we would like the episode to turn out well, we are going to be around for quite a while. Libya shouldn't become a new hotbed for al-Qaeda or a new Somalia now should it? That's in no one's interest.

AII

[Fragony]

Trust me Tuffstuff, Syria is going to be a bloodbath

[rory_20_uk]

Oh sure, technically we can. But since we have invested in this thing and we would like the episode to turn out well, we are going to be around for quite a while. Libya shouldn't become a new hotbed for al-Qaeda or a new Somalia now should it? That's in no one's interest.

The biggest problems at the moment are probably Iran, North Korea, Pakistan and Syria. We are doing nothing in any of those (a few drone strikes in Pakistan does not really count). There is already Somalia, Yemen and Afghanistan for insurgents. How much room does a training camp need? Almost none. The only difference in Libya is it's slightly closer, and the majority of attacks have been against overseas assets rather than homeland as they are a lot easier to do.

If assistance is passing along some intel, giving advice on setting up governments and trading then fine - we gain a lot for a little. If it's garrisoning the place then no thanks - we tie up resources that are already stretched and are even less able to counter the next threat.

Libya's sovereign wealth fund is something like $65 Billion. That should keep them going for a while. After they've spent all of that then... they can sell their oil.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

If it's garrisoning the place then no thanks

Good God, no. I totally agree. I meant that other forms of intervention or assistance may be necessary in our interest as well as Libya's.

AII

[HoreTore]

Every freedom movement has a chance of turning into despotism.

Ho Chi Minh started his career by reading the US declaration of independence as the foundation of his beliefs. Mao lived among his followers in the early years in a truly classless and free society, never asking for any special treatment or honour.

Both of those movements changed dramatically in a different way, and nobody could've predicted it at the time.

But to say that we should never support opposition groups because they can turn into something as bad as the current regime is wrong. It was right to support the democratic opposition in the USSR even though we now have Putin and Belarus, because we also have a free and working Poland and the Czech republic. We havd a chance of failure every time a human rights activist is supported, true, but also have a chance of success.

And it is my firm belief that we should support every one of them, at any time and any place.


A dictator is never good.

[Hax]

Do we really need to go there? A question like this could only be asked by someone who enjoys full democracy and doesn't even understand or value it.

How so? There are no implications to my question, I was just wondering. I am sick of being regarded as someone who does not value western society just because I ask these questions. But instead, I "don't understand or value democracy". Right, you know what I think is best about the Rechtsstaat? It's that I can criticise elements of it without having to fear persecution.


They would chose to be an enemy ideologically. But AdrianII is going to laugh very at me for saying that so I'm of

I don't know. As I have pointed out in the past, there are Islamist politicians that don't automatically regard the west as evil imperialist dogs that deserve to be hanged. Rashid Ghannushi of the Tunisian opposition or, more recently, Esfandiar Rahim Mashaei in Iran. Are they truly enemies? Or are they other people entitled to their opinion when it comes to the governance of a state.

We may very well not agree with them, and I certainly don't, but how can we universally apply our ideas of human rights when they are, essentially, European in nature. I think what we learned from Iraq and Afghanistan is that we can't force a democracy on a people. Maybe Libya will improve.



In any case, the rise of Islamic states has little to do with positive political consent and far more to do with a lack of opposition.

As a point of contrast, do you think the majority wanted a theocratic autocracy in England in the 1650's? Or was it just that the religious fundamentalists had all the power?

I don't know nearly enough about English history to form an educated opinion on that matter. However, taking a look at the history of Islamic states, and in particular Iran. What you seem to forget is the influence of the Iranian left-wing that helped topple the regime of the Shah. It was only after the Revolution that Khomeini started to dispose of his political enemies, secular left-wingers as well sympathisers of the Shah as well as what he regarded as hostile intellectuals.

So the lack of a formidable opposition was not so much present from the start as much as a consequence of the Revolution. I don't think there's any way we can predict what would happen in Libya.

[Adrian II]

How so? There are no implications to my question, I was just wondering.

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

[Strike For The South]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

Indeed. I'm all for the Lybian people decidingi what they want but I feel like my fellow westerners should realize it is sometimes better dealing with 1 all powerful tyrant than 000s of semi powerdul ones

[Fragony]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

yes it is #agrees

[ICantSpellDawg]

Indeed. I'm all for the Lybian people decidingi what they want but I feel like my fellow westerners should realize it is sometimes better dealing with 1 all powerful tyrant than 000s of semi powerdul ones

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

[rory_20_uk]

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

"Fighting" China on this one is not best approached using guns and bullets, but by empowering the people of all these countries. Ensuring that services as Twitter, Facebook, Google+ et al is the way forward. They may be trying to muzzle speech, but more and more they are failing to do so and there are more persons who are trying to circumvent the rules to communicate.

The same thing happened with the USSR - the cost of propping up other countries eventually destroyed them. That China is so jittery about any countries whose people want freedom shows how worried they are about loosing control of their own. No one is backing them, there are no puppet masters and hence playing the nationalist card isn't going to help.

~:smoking:

[Vladimir]

Has this been posted? Dead bodies rotting in the sun.

[Adrian II]

We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. Tora Tora Tora.

Spoken like a man. If we don't counter this trend, democracy may come to be regarded as a liability before we know it. I'm sick and tired already of the so-called superiority of authoritarian capitalism being vaunted by impotent politicians and short-sighted economists.

However there is one force working to our advantage: China itself. Remember: the Chinese middle class is always rising, rising, rising. :2thumbsup:

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

Has this been posted? Dead bodies rotting in the sun.

We've had a couple of instances of this kind of post. This is a PG-13 rated site and pictures of death and extreme violence don't really have a place here. It's pretty obvious that atrocities and death has occurred in Libya and anyone who wants to view such material has only to google it for themselves.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Vladimir]

That's odd. It was Reuters and kinda backs up some arguments here.

[Banquo's Ghost]

That's odd. It was Reuters and kinda backs up some arguments here.

The source is immaterial. Many members on this forum can appreciate that there are bad things happening without graphic footage of dead bodies. In addition, the forum rules ask people not to post such material. Plenty of other sites where one can indulge in ghoulishness, if that's the fancy.

[Adrian II]

It wasn't just Reuters, the story has been covered by Al Jazeera, BBC, Sky and several major newspapers. The pictures are everywhere.

AII

[Viking]

Not properly backed up? Racism in Libya is very well documented (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2011/0306/How-Qaddafi-helped-fuel-fury-toward-Africans-in-Libya/(page)/2). It amazes me that the most ardent proponents of this conflict often know the least about the intricacies of Libyan society. :dizzy2:

There's a lot of evidence of xenophobia and targeting of African migrant workers, about that there is no doubt. However, to say that these occurences are created by racist ideas in the general populace, that is to take one step further.

They were called 'slaves'? But who were these people? In the articles, they are referred to as migrant workers; not native inhabitants of Libya. Perhaps the term 'slave' could even applied non-derogatory - that they were poorly paid etc. Unlike the Egyptian workers, it looks like those from sub-Sahara had to a great extent entered the country illegaly, another thing that could cause hostility towards them. They probably also are generally poor and have little education. To pin their treatment exclusively on racial ideas strikes me as premature (but of course, newspapers would love to use the word 'racism' in their headlines).

Another side of it, is the extent of this behaviour. How many supported the treatment of these people? It is usually the most extreme people that take to streets and commit their deeds. Essentially, it's a bit absurd to assume that a massive group of people would have to have a precise agreement on this and that idea.

[HoreTore]

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

I think I'd like an example of a dictatorship China has given support without there being an economic interest from China.

Because I sure as hell can't think of any.

[Adrian II]

They were called 'slaves'? But who were these people?

Blacks are habitually referred to as 'slaves' (abeed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeed)) in Arab countries. Among Libya's black inhabitants are native Libyans descending from actual slaves or from black tribes in the South, migrant workers from all over Africa, and African mercenaries who were drafted into Gaddafi's regular and irregular forces since the 1980's. There are also groups of African guerilla's who used to be trained in Gaddafi's training camps.

AII

[Viking]

Blacks are habitually referred to as 'slaves' (abeed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeed)) in Arab countries. Among Libya's black inhabitants are native Libyans descending from actual slaves or from black tribes in the South, migrant workers from all over Africa, and African mercenaries who were drafted into Gaddafi's regular and irregular forces since the 1980's. There are also groups of African guerilla's who used to be trained in Gaddafi's training camps.

AII

Each of the Arab countries have their own history, both before and after decolonisation, and so the usage of a word could have different meanings in different countries. Importantly, a word can become synonymous with certain groups, such as in your WP article:


It is commonly used by the Northern Sudanese to refer to Southern Sudanese

which as time passes could mean that 'abeed' would eventually be a derogatory word that means 'South Sudanese', where few people would now associate it with 'slave' (meanings of words may change fast). So again, more research is and/or details are needed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't know nearly enough about English history to form an educated opinion on that matter. However, taking a look at the history of Islamic states, and in particular Iran. What you seem to forget is the influence of the Iranian left-wing that helped topple the regime of the Shah. It was only after the Revolution that Khomeini started to dispose of his political enemies, secular left-wingers as well sympathisers of the Shah as well as what he regarded as hostile intellectuals.

So the lack of a formidable opposition was not so much present from the start as much as a consequence of the Revolution. I don't think there's any way we can predict what would happen in Libya.

Cromwell also eliminated his opposition, including Parliament.

He had the powerful backers, so did Khomeini.

A theocratic state is bad. An Islamic state is theocratic.

[Centurion1]

I think I'd like an example of a dictatorship China has given support without there being an economic interest from China.

Because I sure as hell can't think of any.

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

[econ21]

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

That's a good question. But I don't think China sees North Korea as an ideological soulmate - for that to be true, North Korea would have to be following a more reformist path like the Chinese themselves. I don't even think the fall of North Korea to the South would worry China on an ideological front - South Korea seems to have so much more in common with China - in terms of economy, culture etc - than North Korea does.

I suspect the Chinese government see North Korea as an unexploded bomb, best left propped up, stable and undisturbed. The worst case scenario is that North Korea tries to take the South down with it, starting a major war and destabilising the world economy. Even if North Korea were to go out with a whimper rather than a bang, I can still see the risk of refugees and it becoming more of a burden to it's neighbour than it is now. I think that's why China has not prodded North Korea to follow it's path since 1978.

[Major Robert Dump]

Haha they have found the daughter Reagan killed in 1985. She is a doctor.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It wasn't just Reuters, the story has been covered by Al Jazeera, BBC, Sky and several major newspapers. The pictures are everywhere.

AIIAnd it isn't just 'Louis' and Strike's Yacatun Holiday Picture Book' that covers lots of fetishes, but also IAmAboutTo.com, LonghornDorsetSheep.nz and AllBlacks.Co.ck. The smutty p0rn pictures are everywhere.

Just not here.



Louis - returns to that Cook Islands Kiwi Rugger fan site.

[HoreTore]

LonghornDorsetSheep.nz doesn't exist.



You tease.

[HoreTore]

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north-korea-relationship/p11097

Got anyone else?

[Centurion1]

http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north-korea-relationship/p11097

Got anyone else?

Yeah N. Korea

Do you even read your articles? The experts in your article suggest a 1.25 billion dollars in their trade deficit is simply ignored by China since N. Korea essentially has no borrowing power. That's money the could have easily made elsewhere.

[HoreTore]

Yeah N. Korea

Do you even read your articles? The experts in your article suggest a 1.25 billion dollars in their trade deficit is simply ignored by China since N. Korea essentially has no borrowing power. That's money the could have easily made elsewhere.

I do believe you missed it completely.

[Tellos Athenaios]

:laugh4: China considers $1.25bn good value if it buys them a somewhat functional border guard to keep the North Koreans from getting in. (Well more of them than those who can manage it currently.) Not unlike the funds pumped into Mexico by the USA in the vain hope it'll keep at least some Mexicans put.

[Papewaio]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

Depends if we mean theocracy or Islamic laws/majority. As long as we don't equate an Islamic state to be automatically a theocracy then we have a few positive examples.

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies... All three in the long term trends are doing well... Not as well as their more secular democratic neighbors but better then the local despots of any faith i.e. Compare Malaysia vs Burma

[Adrian II]

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies...

You mean there are democracies out there that are democracies? I'm not surprised.

But can you name one islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

[Fragony]

You mean there are democracies out there that are democracies? I'm not surprised.

But can you name one islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

Turkey I guess (it's not an islamic state of course, it's a muslim country)

[Adrian II]

Turkey I guess (it's not an islamic state of course, it's a muslim country)

Right, Turkey is not an islamic state. Its state was funded explicitly on secular principles.

Again, can anyone name an islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

[Fragony]

Right, Turkey is not an islamic state. Its state was funded explicitly on secular principles.

Again, can anyone name an islamic state that is a democracy?

AII

It's inherently impossible asking for one is a bit of a trap, islamic means the full deal, a theocracy can never be democratic as it's religious rule. Muslim countries can be democratic of course, big distinction to be made.

[HoreTore]

I'd say that every democratic State is(and has to be) founded on secularism, but the population's religious feelings are not as relevant(see America).

It's a fine line though.

Norway's constitution, for example, defines Norway as a Christian state. In that sense, a country can of course be Islamic and still be a democracy.

[Fragony]

I'd say that every democratic State is(and has to be) founded on secularism, but the population's religious feelings are not as relevant(see America).

It's a fine line though.

Norway's constitution, for example, defines Norway as a Christian state. In that sense, a country can of course be Islamic and still be a democracy.

No it's impossible because islam is also a political system. Making it perfectly possible to claim that no islamic state actually exists by the way alas. But in it's purest form it isn't compatible with democracy.

[Centurion1]

Right obviously any country that is an islamic state cannot be a democracy. its laughable to assume so. When religion permeates government it leads to FAIL. I'm religious and thats fine but when it comes to my government ill take it with a big dollop of secularism. And by that I do not mean anti religion. The perfect democracy is neutral and therefore takes no stance. A government which is pro or anti religion is doomed to failure eventually or they need to change. Even Stalin participated with Orthodox leaders during WW2.

It may be wrong but the best form of government the world knows is democracy and democracy arises from the West. You can say what you want about how democracy doesn't fit every nation and I will call bull. Look beyond the West and every succesful non European nation is a western style democracy.

America, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, India, Brazil,

the only argument against democracy is China....... and eventually as the middle class grows China will implode. And even China isn't a dictatorship..... at least more than one man is in power. And even worse than a dictatorship in my eyes is a theocracy or a dictatorship married with a theocracy.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.


The most stable nation in the middle east barring Israel (israel being a pretty decent example of a hyperreligious state putting secular government practices first) is Turkey. And Turkish generals have a tendency of staging coups when the fundi's get too uppity.

If Libya goes the way it could very well head, into an Islamic state, Libya is screwed. I just wonder how many more years and deaths until Middle Easterners finally realize that when they do these revolutions or try to depose dictators if they don't want to be in similar straits in 20 years they have to distance themselves politically from Islam. The vast majority of the ME is in my eyes a gigantic fail. If it wasn't for oil many of these states SA. Yemen, Iran, Iraq, etc would be horrendous. They hav inflated GDP's and such because of the oil and the worst part is there ar epeople who see those high gdp's and go well it can't be that bad off there..... they don't realize its a few princes or sheiks or what have you inflating up the poor sods who make up the majority.

Kill the power of the religion in politics and then and only then will killing your tin pot dictators be of value. I relish the day of western style democracies deposing Saudi Arabian "princes" i'll drop the JDAMS myself on that day.

[Centurion1]

Depends if we mean theocracy or Islamic laws/majority. As long as we don't equate an Islamic state to be automatically a theocracy then we have a few positive examples.

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies... All three in the long term trends are doing well... Not as well as their more secular democratic neighbors but better then the local despots of any faith i.e. Compare Malaysia vs Burma

any democracy which embraces religion and endorses it is always doomed to failure and will remain a joke in my eyes.

indonesia is one, you robably included turkey but you shouldnt because of their history, and im not sure of your third.... pakistan? The country which bows to some pashtun tribes in the mountains and fears its ever growing neighbor? Pakistan was at its most stable with Musharaff now i have nightmares it will collapse and its nukes will disappear to resurface in some american or european city.

[Montmorency]

Two issues: Australia is Western; South Africa is not Middle Eastern.

[Centurion1]

Two problems.

Read the sentence again.

South Africa is depressingly one of the more successful countries in Africa.

Also your little point there holds no merit whatsoever. I didn't say every democracy was successful but that the overwhelming majority of successful nations are democracies.

[Montmorency]

Did you even read my post? It's only one line.

[Centurion1]

Did you even read my post? It's only one line.


Two issues: Australia is Western; South Africa is not Middle Eastern.

Semi colon denotes separate thought. My comments are all valid.

Address them or you were simply trolling..... all your posts tend to be what I imagine are witty one liners while you type them.

[Montmorency]

I am a very patient man, but it still distresses me to see you act in such provocative manner.

[Centurion1]

The backroom is for debate it is not for what you believe are witty one liners. Elaborate and defend your points or don't make them.

[Montmorency]

I was not making a point, I was quibbling.


Look beyond the West and every succesful non European nation is a western style democracy.

When I first read this post, it said, "every successful non-Western nation is a...

You included Australia as an example. Australia is Western. You seem to have later edited in America and Canada, and changed "Western" to "non-European". However, you did not revise "Look beyond the West", so that's still a problem.


The vast majority of the ME is in my eyes a gigantic fail. If it wasn't for oil many of these states SA. Yemen, Iran, Iraq, etc would be horrendous.

South Africa is quite distinct from the Middle Eastern states, in almost every way imagineable (besides oil).

It is quite a petty thing for me raise objections to such minor issues, but your response was irrelevant and unnecessary. Just edit the posts and move on.

[Centurion1]

Okay first point. I edited in america because I was considering including it because of the innate american ability to triumph secularism and demonize it at the same time. I decided to include it. Also because people love to say america isn't successful in some ways and i don't want to go down that road.

I am sure mods can check what is edited out somehow so if you want to debate what I edited just ask a mod to tell you or I will......

Canada and australia were there before and i didn't change the western bit. I just added in America later. It was always non-European because I wanted to distinguish and saying non European gave me a bigger pool to draw from. It is not my fault you didnt read it correctly and you want to use the fact that I edited my post as your defense.....

As for your second point this is why it is very helpful when you elaborate...... SA is an abbreviation of Saudi Arabia. Think before you try to correct.

[Montmorency]

1. But "Look past the West" is still there.
2. Ah, my mistake then. I must have had an earlier comment in mind, one in which you expressed similar feelings towards the South African economy.

[Centurion1]

1. long post i didnt proofread. Sorry. While typing it I thought hey if I say non European I can include a broader array of examples. So hence the shift in language mid way through.

2. yep

See now we have cleared that all up and the internet is happier for it. :clown:

[Fragony]

'Right obviously any country that is an islamic state cannot be a democracy. its laughable to assume so'

It would cease being an islamic state, just like a communist state would cease being communist. Islamism is a political movement, and not all muslims are islamist.

[Adrian II]

Look beyond the West and every succesful non European nation is a western style democracy. America, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, India, Brazil [..]

It is interesting though that islamic countries usually are not doing worse than their non-islamic neighbours. Islam is often blamed for the nefarious effects of cultural traditions older than islam, colonial heritage, rampant tribalism, protracted wars and civil wars, and imperialist meddling.

Anatole Lieven makes the point eloquently in his book Pakistan, A Hard Country. Instead of copying its introduction by hand, let me copy and paste part of a review in The Guardian:


Certainly, an unblinkered vision of South Asia would feature a country whose fanatically ideological government in 1998 conducted nuclear tests, threatened its neighbour with all-out war and, four years later, presided over the massacre of 2,000 members of a religious minority. Long embattled against secessionist insurgencies on its western and eastern borders, the "flailing" state of this country now struggles to contain a militant movement in its heartland. It is also where thousands of women are killed every year for failing to bring sufficient dowry and nearly 200,000 farmers have committed suicide in the previous decade.

Needless to say, the country described above is not Pakistan but India, which, long feared to be near collapse, has revamped its old western image through what the American writer David Rieff calls the most "successful national re-branding" and "cleverest PR campaign" by a political and business establishment since "Cool Britannia" in the 1990s. Pakistan, on the other hand, seems to have lost all control over its international narrative.

AII

[Centurion1]

I do not blame Islam. I blame Islam if it permeates government as I do Christianity, Buddhism, or Animism when it is found within government.

Also yes I blame quite a few issues people associate with Islam in Arab countries with their respective cultural issues. Too often people confuse antiquated cultural practices with Islam itself.

[Adrian II]

I do not blame Islam. I blame Islam if it permeates government as I do Christianity, Buddhism, or Animism when it is found within government.

Also yes I blame quite a few issues people associate with Islam in Arab countries with their respective cultural issues. Too often people confuse antiquated cultural practices with Islam itself.

Good. Now if Islam is apparently able to 'absorb' many different cultural traditions, it could also 'absorb' democratic principles and institutions, right? If only the powers that be would tolerate it. Which they don't, because it is not in their political and material interest.

I think the real problem is not that a petrified Islam perpetuates dictatorships, but that it is the dictatorships that perpetuate a petrified Islam.

So how do we break that cycle?

AII

[Fragony]

Why should we break any cycles, let them figure it out themselves. Maybe, like the Russians, they prefer a strong hand that is more powerful than the individual tribes. We can almost completely leave the islam out of the equation that only matters in Europe. No real islamic state exists although Iran comes close

[Hax]

Well, the very least we can do is to stop pretending that Islam is a monolithic force that has never changed since 622 AD. Reformism in Islam is not a new concept.

[Papewaio]

any democracy which embraces religion and endorses it is always doomed to failure and will remain a joke in my eyes.

indonesia is one, you robably included turkey but you shouldnt because of their history, and im not sure of your third.... pakistan?

The third one is the only one I directly mentioned.

Turkey, Indonesia & Malaysia... of course the last two have to explain the conundrum of Singapore their neighbour.

The other side of the trend is that most of the successful Non-European democracies are ex-British colonies...

BTW
Australia would be considered both Western and Asian depending on how one slices the data. I'd say 2/3rds to 3/4trs Western but the region we are in has a massive impact on uptake of immigrants and food.

[HoreTore]

I believe you just ignored south america, pape....

[Kralizec]

Malaysia may not be an islamic state in the strict sense of the word, but it's not an examplary secular democracy either. It's illegal even for nominal muslims to convert to another religion (this includes cases where a man decides to become a muslim, and the children are classified as muslims by default - regardless of their or their mother's opinion) and government persecution of the Hindu minority is pretty well documented.

[Fragony]

Well, the very least we can do is to stop pretending that Islam is a monolithic force that has never changed since 622 AD. Reformism in Islam is not a new concept.

But that kinda is the idea behind islamism, that it didn't evolve

[Hax]

Quite the contrary, Islamism as a political force was reformist in its own rights. I believe I have referred to Sayyid Qutb more than once, whose writings were a major inspiration to Ayman al-Zawahiri and Anwar al-Awlaki. Additionally, I believe that Osama bin Laden himself used to read Qutb's works as well.

There are a lot of different factors that have contributed to the way the Middle East looks today, but I think that the Turkish secular state was largely based upon French design (as was the Constitutional Revolution in Persia/Iran, that finally resulted in the reign of the Pahlavi shahs). I think that what may have given rise to such a strong sentimental feeling to return to the "roots" of Islam was western imposed influence, through colonisation (this of course lacking in Turkey and Persia, that were never colonised). We all saw what happened in Iran, and even then, it's questionable whether a majority of the people did indeed desire an Islamic state (not for the lack of trying on Mehdi Bazargan's part, either).

I think it's got something to do with a sort of knee-jerk reaction: the more Islamic, the less western (and vice versa), that might be an idea that's been living in the minds of the post-colonialist imams and politicians. And seeing how those dictators were essentially on the payrole of the West, it's not that hard to imagine that in their minds, Islam was the answer to everything. Although now that movement, too, has had its best days. Of course, we shouldn't apply Egyptian standards to Libya or Yemen, but these revolutions were not Islamist in nature.

[Papewaio]

I believe you just ignored south america, pape....

Which of them have large Muslim populations? Nope... not central to the main arguement.

The side bar of worlds most successful democracies... I don't think of any in South America that others model themselves after, quality of life is still not up there...yet. Brazil is up and coming and may prove a few good things to come... but then again the Carribean nations have a lot that are doing much much better... I wonder who is the head of state for a lot of those...

[Fragony]

'Quite the contrary, Islamism as a political force wasreformist in its own rights. I believe I have referred to Sayyid Qutb more than once, whose writings were a major inspiration to Ayman al-Zawahiri and Anwar al-Awlaki. Additionally, I believe that Osama bin Laden himself used to read Qutb's works as well.'

Truth in that, but what he modernised is the islam regarding the concept of a state, you could call it a reformation but I call it a modernisation. I have some stuff from him here (not easy to get) but my knowledge of the islam itself is too poor to get into that. But I do know political theory and islamism is the ultra-orthodox being made future-proof, but ultra-orthodox it is

[Adrian II]

Why should we break any cycles, let them figure it out themselves.

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

Ain't that the truth. There they are, mired in dictatorial warlordism -- possibly the most perniciously difficult thing to change of all -- and we are virtually condemned to helping them deal with it. Catch 22 writ large.

[Centurion1]

I believe you just ignored south america, pape....

Have you ever been to South America. Even Brazil its most promising nation is still not somewhere i would trade living in the west for. South America is populated by tinpot dictators and corruption runs rampant in every government there.

[Centurion1]

The third one is the only one I directly mentioned.

Turkey, Indonesia & Malaysia... of course the last two have to explain the conundrum of Singapore their neighbour.

The other side of the trend is that most of the successful Non-European democracies are ex-British colonies...

BTW
Australia would be considered both Western and Asian depending on how one slices the data. I'd say 2/3rds to 3/4trs Western but the region we are in has a massive impact on uptake of immigrants and food.

East Asian with American Influencers tend to do well to.

Japan, South Korea.

I'm beginning to see a trend here.

[Fragony]

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

We are the ones with the cards, they just get to play with them. There isn't anything we can't take by force, not that we should but we can, as this disgusting war in Libya has shown. In the end they are nothing.

[Strike For The South]

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

I like those odds

[Adrian II]

I like those odds

You'd better :mellow:

AII

[Noncommunist]

Have you ever been to South America. Even Brazil its most promising nation is still not somewhere i would trade living in the west for. South America is populated by tinpot dictators and corruption runs rampant in every government there.

While some countries in South America like Venezuela, Ecuador, and Bolivia are certainly leaning towards dictatorship, all of South America is some sort of democracy, just weaker in some places.

[Papewaio]

Because they're sitting on top of 3/4 of the world's oil, a huge pile of weapons and a demographic timebomb?

AII

So we have 2 sets of solutions and some synergy.

Get off our oil addiction. Its a simple choice increase solar, tidal, wind and for base load nuclear and then use EVs rather then subsidising dictators. We should not be using food for petrol substitutes... maybe for machine lubrication and pharmaceutical substitution.

Help the youth in these countries get skills to get jobs. It will either diffuse the timebomb/get them ready for a oil independent economy or give them the skill set to fight for democracy themselves without leaving a bitter oily residue in their mouths about the west.

I think the first set has to be done, otherwise we will never have the willpower to front these regimes. In the end of the day our habits in oil and drugs are what are doing a lot of the damage in third world countries. As far as drugs are concerned treat addicts as well addicts, make it a health sector issue first and foremost. Any crimes that drug users comit make them face the full force of the law, without the benefit of 'I was under the influence'.

We kick out habits, we kick out the dictators. No need to invade, or prop them up. Help the people and one day those communities will be happy to trade with us.

[Centurion1]

So we have 2 sets of solutions and some synergy.

Get off our oil addiction. Its a simple choice increase solar, tidal, wind and for base load nuclear and then use EVs rather then subsidising dictators. We should not be using food for petrol substitutes... maybe for machine lubrication and pharmaceutical substitution.

Help the youth in these countries get skills to get jobs. It will either diffuse the timebomb/get them ready for a oil independent economy or give them the skill set to fight for democracy themselves without leaving a bitter oily residue in their mouths about the west.

I think the first set has to be done, otherwise we will never have the willpower to front these regimes. In the end of the day our habits in oil and drugs are what are doing a lot of the damage in third world countries. As far as drugs are concerned treat addicts as well addicts, make it a health sector issue first and foremost. Any crimes that drug users comit make them face the full force of the law, without the benefit of 'I was under the influence'.

We kick out habits, we kick out the dictators. No need to invade, or prop them up. Help the people and one day those communities will be happy to trade with us.

you know what is guaranteed to eventually work. buy their oil and otherwise ignore them no matter what they are doing

[a completely inoffensive name]

you know what is guaranteed to eventually work. buy their oil and otherwise ignore them no matter what they are doing

Yeah, people should have just ignored 9/11, it only gave the terrorists the attention they wanted.

[Adrian II]

Yeah, people should have just ignored 9/11, it only gave the terrorists the attention they wanted.

After all it was just a cry for attention because they were out of a job. :wink3:

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

Get off our oil addiction. Its a simple choice increase solar, tidal, wind and for base load nuclear and then use EVs rather then subsidising dictators. We should not be using food for petrol substitutes... maybe for machine lubrication and pharmaceutical substitution.

It's very hard to know why we aren't doing this with all vigour. It would also create a lot of new jobs and industry at home. Just a big effort towards energy efficiency would make a huge difference.


Help the youth in these countries get skills to get jobs. It will either diffuse the timebomb/get them ready for a oil independent economy or give them the skill set to fight for democracy themselves without leaving a bitter oily residue in their mouths about the west.

Much more difficult. This is just another form of economic imperialism. Any failure immediately becomes our fault. No, let them sort out their own employment problems - by all means be a trading partner.



you know what is guaranteed to eventually work. buy their oil and otherwise ignore them no matter what they are doing

Quite a bizarre position. How do you ignore them when they turn the oil off - or even down? Our oil dependent economies are already in a deeply fragile state and we have been begging the Saudis on our knees for the last couple of years to keep the taps on full. How do you ignore someone who has you by the danglies?

[Adrian II]

This is just another form of economic imperialism. Any failure immediately becomes our fault. No, let them sort out their own employment problems - by all means be a trading partner.

Any western employment scheme for Arabs would be disastrous, not because we would be wrongfully blamed for failure, but because it would be a failure and we would be to blame. Western companies and bureaucracies have a horrible track-record in the Arab world already and the possibilities for fraud in such a scheme would be enormous, comparable to those of, say, the carbon emission trade or the niche for western contractors in warzones.

I mean, just look at our bankers these days. You think they wouldn't find a way to funnel those job scheme millions to the Bahama's before you can say 'job'?

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

Any western employment scheme for Arabs would be disastrous, not because we would be wrongfully blamed for failure, but because it would be a failure and we would be to blame. Western companies and bureaucracies have a horrible track-record in the Arab world already and the possibilities for fraud in such a scheme would be enormous, comparable to those of, say, the carbon emission trade or the niche for western contractors in warzones.

I mean, just look at our bankers these days. You think they wouldn't find a way to funnel those job scheme millions to the Bahama's before you can say 'job'?

AII

Yes, you phrased the sentiment better than I, but just so. :bow:

[Papewaio]

I didn't say give them jobs. I said give them skills to get jobs. Nuance gentleman :7madhatter:, nuance.

For example Ron Bruder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Bruder) and his Education For Employment (http://www.efefoundation.org/homepage.html)

I think that counts as a viable proof of concept. :coffeenews:

[gaelic cowboy]

It's very hard to know why we aren't doing this with all vigour. It would also create a lot of new jobs and industry at home. Just a big effort towards energy efficiency would make a huge difference.

It's because were spoiled Banquo.

I don't know if many people on the org really really really know just how wonderful a product petroleum is.

Basically it is a gift that we will take a long time to get back once we have used over 50% of it.




Much more difficult. This is just another form of economic imperialism. Any failure immediately becomes our fault. No, let them sort out their own employment problems - by all means be a trading partner. There are masses of unemployed graduates in the Maghreb and Mid East they will be fine. I don't doubt a little bit more freedom will go a long way to sorting there problems out (eventually).





Quite a bizarre position. How do you ignore them when they turn the oil off - or even down? Our oil dependent economies are already in a deeply fragile state and we have been begging the Saudis on our knees for the last couple of years to keep the taps on full. How do you ignore someone who has you by the danglies?

hmm how do you ignore someone who has you by the unmentionables

Two answers here

1 You don't ignore them and hope they let go.
2 you do ignore them but your eyes will water

[a completely inoffensive name]

It's because were spoiled Banquo.

I don't know if many people on the org really really really know just how wonderful a product petroleum is.

Petroleum is our life. Petroleum derived plastics cover all our electronics and make up all of our childrens toys, petroleum derived fertilizers feed our entire country, petroleum gets us from place to place. It is the western lifestyle.

[Ironside]

Petroleum is our life. Petroleum derived plastics cover all our electronics and make up all of our childrens toys, petroleum derived fertilizers feed our entire country, petroleum gets us from place to place. It is the western lifestyle.

With a suffiecent alternate energy source, you can create enough petroleum to use for plastics etc. The problem is that's quite energy intence, so you'll need a big energy source.

[a completely inoffensive name]

With a suffiecent alternate energy source, you can create enough petroleum to use for plastics etc. The problem is that's quite energy intence, so you'll need a big energy source.

Only energy source that fits the bill is fusion and there are no guarantees from ITER...

[Fragony]

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.

[Major Robert Dump]

Maybe with a friendly regime giving us good prices on oil the cost of Vaseline will go down

[rory_20_uk]

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.

It ain't over. The only thing that unified the opposition was getting Gadaffi out. Now, who gets what?

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

It ain't over. The only thing that unified the opposition was getting Gadaffi out. Now, who gets what?

~:smoking:

Oh yeah, fun times ahead, tribes tend to dislike sharing it's going to be a nightmare. Ghadaffi is scum, but everybody is scum over there, and they are now all armed to the teeth. Enjoy

[rory_20_uk]

God put the Med there to keep them a nice long way from Europe. He even added another body of water to keep the UK away from Europe.

Good luck the AU and the Arab league. You're going to need it.

~:smoking:

[Viking]

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.

What about the liberation from the Nazis.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Maybe with a friendly regime giving us good prices on oil the cost of Vaseline will go down

Making it easier for all of us to be....

On second thought, I will just let that rest.

[Fragony]

What about the liberation from the Nazis.

What about it. Hope they make the best out of these 2 or 3 months of peace

[Noncommunist]

Geez only 50.000 dead estimated, I feel so proud about my country having a hand in 'the liberation of the Lybians'.

Where are you getting the 50,000 number? The last I read it was at was about 13,000 or so.

[HoreTore]

Where are you getting the 50,000 number? The last I read it was at was about 13,000 or so.

All sorts of numbers are flying around. None of them are trustworthy.

It'll take at the very least half a year before we have reliable numbers. Probably more.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

All sorts of numbers are flying around. None of them are trustworthy.

It'll take at the very least half a year before we have reliable numbers. Probably more.

Maybe a reasonable estimate. We will never have reliable numbers.

[Adrian II]

Where are you getting the 50,000 number? The last I read it was at was about 13,000 or so.

It's from this Reuters report (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/30/us-libya-casualties-idUSTRE77T3PE20110830).

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

One wonders how many people have been killed or maimed by the showers of spent bullets raining from the sky? What goes up must come down and these people have such a penchant for firing indiscriminately into the air in built up areas.

[Husar]

Nah, they're really responsible and aim very well:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0bc_1314769189

[Viking]

What about it. Hope they make the best out of these 2 or 3 months of peace

What about it? Europe was a country full of tribes and militaries, who had been figthing eacher over and over as long as there is recorded history. The previous major war was less than three decades ago. One of the bigger tribes, the Soviet Union, claimed large swathes of land after the war, such as much of the area belonging to the German tribe. All in all, not good odds for the future. What do you think of this 'liberation'? Would you favour a strongman such as Hitler controlling all of Europe so that peace could be more likely?

[Fragony]

What about it? Europe was a country full of tribes and militaries, who had been figthing eacher over and over as long as there is recorded history. The previous major war was less than three decades ago. One of the bigger tribes, the Soviet Union, claimed large swathes of land after the war, such as much of the area belonging to the German tribe. All in all, not good odds for the future. What do you think of this 'liberation'? Would you favour a strongman such as Hitler controlling all of Europe so that peace could be more likely?

Projecting ourselves really isn't going to help, arab culture has a logic of it's own. I don't get it and neither do you

[Viking]

'Ourselves'? Are we of WWII? No, Europe, as any other place, changes with time.

The core of the question is: strong despot for calmer society with no hope for freedom vs. turbulent times in change for potential great freedom.

[Subotan]

Projecting ourselves really isn't going to help, arab culture has a logic of it's own. I don't get it and neither do you

And that logic has lead them to topple dictatorships and move nations to achieve something remarkably similar to Eurodemocracy. I dunno about you, but I think we Europeans and Arabs "get" each other more than you might think.

[Fragony]

And that logic has lead them to topple dictatorships and move nations to achieve something remarkably similar to Eurodemocracy. I dunno about you, but I think we Europeans and Arabs "get" each other more than you might think.

sure

[rory_20_uk]

'Ourselves'? Are we of WWII? No, Europe, as any other place, changes with time.

The core of the question is: strong despot for calmer society with no hope for freedom vs. turbulent times in change for potential great freedom.

A decision for the locals to make, not us.

~:smoking:

[Viking]

And that's what happened, as well as it could. Do not equate fire power with will of the people; there would be no dictatorships then.

[Fragony]

And that's what happened, as well as it could. Do not equate fire power with will of the people; there would be no dictatorships then.

So far there was a common enemy, when he's gone the infighting will begin. The rebels are a mix of normally hostile tribes, reformers and jihadi's, see any potential difficulties?

[Montmorency]

Comment from this (http://www.economist.com/node/21528248)Economist article. It's kind of lulzy.



dare to remind to the Readers that ITALY deployed the FOURTH air force with 14 warplanes,and dropped more than 500 laser guided bombs and air to ground missiles.The ECONOMIST,cosistent with his antitalian tradition,quotes us after Norway,that left the operation,Denmark and other superpowers.An article aimed to convince the Readers that the Mediterranean is strongly in the hands of the francobritish band.Pity that without our bases,the operation in Libya would have never begun.Add this to our involvment,and you understand why ALL THE OIL CONTRACTS WE HAD,WORTH DOZEN OF BILLUIONS,WILL BE CONFIRMED BY THE CNT.Useless that France spreads rumours of "35%".It's propaganda,the old false information made in Paris.The conclusion is simple:no NATO without Italy,in a crucial place like the Meditarranean.And no defense for israel,no struggle AGAINST the terrorism,no nothing.

[Furunculus]

the conclusion i have long agreed with:

"a higher value on being able to conduct operations in the “near abroad” than on playing a junior role in conflicts far from home"

the lesson from Libya: sovereign and strategic power projection!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://storyful.com/stories/1000007357

New Libyasn Football kit, laugh all you want but it's the little things like this that are important - as well as the goalkeeper swapping out his AA Gun for his mits again.

[Fragony]

the conclusion i have long agreed with:

"a higher value on being able to conduct operations in the ?near abroad? than on playing a junior role in conflicts far from home"

the lesson from Libya: sovereign and strategic power projection!

There are lessons to be learned from Libya, you just don't get them yet. Want to make a bet that in 4 years a million have died. I think in two myself, place your bets it's all so marvellous

[econ21]

Want to make a bet that in 4 years a million have died.

I'll take that bet. Libya's total population is 6 million. You are saying getting rid of Gadhafi will be as disasterous for Libya as WW2 was for Poland.

[Fragony]

I'll take that bet. Libya's total population is 6 million. You are saying getting rid of Gadhafi will be as disasterous for Libya as WW2 was for Poland.

Safe bet, the black immigrants are already dead, killed, or starved in the Sahara, or murdered in the hospitals before they could flee. About 2 million people support Ghaddafi, who got the silly idea that it's better to be payed in gold. One million dead in 4 years, your on

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Safe bet, the black immigrants are already dead, killed, or starved in the Sahara, or murdered in the hospitals before they could flee. About 2 million people support Ghaddafi, who got the silly idea that it's better to be payed in gold. One million dead in 4 years, your on

Not all "blacks", yes there have been some reprisals, but have you forgotten Feburary when Sub-Saharans were roaming the streets of Trippoli killing men women and children.

Exactly how many "sympathisers" did you hang when the mointy came into Holland? How many of those girls has their heads shaved, were beaten and then cast out of their towns and villages?

Libya's population is already tired of war, and while I don't expect the transition to be entirely smooth the NTC is not the old regime, it was built from scratch unlike Egypt and Tunisia's interim governments, it has adopted the pre-Gaddafi flag because the people see it as a sign of their freedom. Even if it is a mix of exiles and technocrats with a sprinkling of Islamists, the general population is not going to stand for another dictatorship.

The course of events has overrun any cabal that might have existed and the men provisionally in charge are clever enough, if not wise enough, to know that they can have short political carears followed either by firing squad or by statues and schools named after them, but they can't have long-term power.

[Subotan]

Comment from this (http://www.economist.com/node/21528248)Economist article. It's kind of lulzy.

I love the Economist, but the comments sections are always so universally dire. It's so mystifying, as I would have thought that the Economist would have a rather brainy and rational readership.

[Montmorency]

The comments are actually often rather good, once youve filtered out the angry patriots.

[Viking]

So far there was a common enemy, when he's gone the infighting will begin. The rebels are a mix of normally hostile tribes, reformers and jihadi's, see any potential difficulties?


The tribes are mainly a brilliant PR idea* by the Gaddafi regime. It doesn't look like a Libyan tribe's name is worth more allegiance than a last name here in the West.

If they are all in the political game from the start, then all the more likely that they'll turn into political animals rather than fighting beasts. After long war of months, they'll have little appetite for more fighting. It is thought that the Algerian civil war from the 90s has deterred any major unrest in Algeria this year through a similar mechanism - why take the risk.



*This is probably a common strategy among dictatorships. I mean, I guess they know that many news media, even Western ones, will repeat the statements of their spokesmen without any/minimal judgement of their truthfulness, even if the statements are blatantly false. Many people who are viewing these news will not get more input from other sources, as they do not care enough about the topic. That way, repeating lies/half-truths over and over could end up swaying a great number of people over the world with statements such as 'NATO airstrikes kill thousands of civilians in Libya', when the real total figure may be well below what the Gaddafi regime would kill on an average day. So crazy lies might be worth it in the end for such regimes - many will believe at least parts of them.

[Fragony]

'The tribes are mainly a brilliant PR idea* by the Gaddafi regime'

You are so wrong

'Exactly how many "sympathisers" did you hang when the mointy came into Holland? How many of those girls has their heads shaved, were beaten and then cast out of their towns and villages?'

It's much worse actually, somtehing we love to forget. The camps didn't close after the liberation, former NSB members were put there and starved to death. Not very smart to bring even after 50 years

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

'The tribes are mainly a brilliant PR idea* by the Gaddafi regime'

You are so wrong

'Exactly how many "sympathisers" did you hang when the mointy came into Holland? How many of those girls has their heads shaved, were beaten and then cast out of their towns and villages?'

It's much worse actually, somtehing we love to forget. The camps didn't close after the liberation, former NSB members were put there and starved to death. Not very smart to bring even after 50 years

So, according to you, the Dutch were killing people in NAZI death camps up to 1960?

[Viking]

You are so wrong

You are totally wrong.

[Fragony]

So, according to you, the Dutch were killing people in NAZI death camps up to 1960?

Not sure how long it went on, until the fifties at least. Former resistance fighters as well if if they had communist sympathies

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not sure how long it went on, until the fifties at least. Former resistance fighters as well if if they had communist sympathies

I don't really believe you.

Adrian?

This sounds like your wierd idea that the Dutch Royal Family was put on the throne by Napoleon.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I don't really believe you.

Adrian?

This sounds like your wierd idea that the Dutch Royal Family was put on the throne by Napoleon.

Two things:

(1) There were no nazi or other death camps in the Neds, never have been.
(2) There were however, “labour” camps built by the Nazis. Those were repurposed in the late 40's/50's for prison (for NSB & sometimes their family) as well as for other use, mainly for housing refugees. It was probably a combination of convenience and necessity: it was a time when the Dutch government actively urged people to head for Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA...

Starving to death is somewhat relative, but the NSB types were not treated with a great deal of respect for their human needs in any case. Their fate (beyond their “punishment”) really was not a concern for the Dutch at the time.

[Fragony]

There is nothing relative about starving. Aftermath was ugly everywhere PVC

[Tellos Athenaios]

There is nothing relative about starving. Aftermath was ugly everywhere PVC

What I meant was: when it came to food redistribution NSB types were last on the list. However, purposefully/deliberately letting them starve to death outright is different.

[Fragony]

What I meant was: when it came to food redistribution NSB types were last on the list. However, purposefully/deliberately letting them starve to death outright is different.

Is if there is enough food. It's a black page in our history untreated. Before the war the NSB was just a political party and workers movement, bugger for you if you signed up

[Fragony]

This sounds like your wierd idea that the Dutch Royal Family was put on the throne by Napoleon.

After Napoleon, it's a fact, we were a repubublic and doing fine. We are also doing fine with these parasites who have as much blue blood as the cheese royale, they are frauds. We aren't doing fine because of them. Current majesty is shrewd and most of all ruthless. William the Fast (crownprinz) is really really dumb. It will end

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

After Napoleon, it's a fact, we were a repubublic and doing fine. We are also doing fine with these parasites who have as much blue blood as the cheese royale, they are frauds. We aren't doing fine because of them. Current majesty is shrewd and most of all ruthless. William the Fast (crownprinz) is really really dumb. It will end

The Prince of Orange managed to get the other Provinces to name him King, he did it without a war. He was de-facto King anyway, so I say good on him for making it official.

[Fragony]

The Prince of Orange managed to get the other Provinces to name him King, he did it without a war. He was de-facto King anyway, so I say good on him for making it official.

The last heir of William of Orange broke his neck 200 years ago when his horse tripped over a molehole. Current majesty refuses to take DNA tests, even the glasses are taken after she drinked from them. Us being a monarchy is a completely artificial creation of England and France at the peace of 1848, we had no choice. Before that we were a repubic.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Netherlands have been “kingdom” from 1806-1810, then on from 1812-1848 when it became a “constitutional monarchy” but with power firmly in the hands of parliament.
The constitution of 1848 is largely based on the 1798 one, Thorbecke admitted to putting a thin veneer of monarchy on top of that one as it were...

[Fragony]

Netherlands have been ?kingdom? from 1806-1810, then on from 1812-1848 when it became a ?constitutional monarchy? but with power firmly in the hands of parliament.
The constitution of 1848 is largely based on the 1798 one, Thorbecke admitted to putting a thin veneer of monarchy on top of that one as it were...

Our reversed political evolution, surely you as a D66 voter you must want this family out of the government. The power she has must be taken from her no? They are mobsters, the locals dread the vist of a representive of the royal family, Beatrix van Amsberg Lippe-Biesterfet feels she's above paying, screw her and her stupid son with his juntawhore

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentleman, fascinating though Dutch politics and history may be, this is a thread about Libya.

Please return to topic.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Fragony]

Gentleman, fascinating though Dutch politics and history may be, this is a thread about Libya.

Please return to topic.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

Well it kinda is, we lost a chopper because princess Mabel van Bruinsma tot Amsberg is very close to Ghaddafi's son and had to be evecuated from Libya which didn't go all that well. Dutch royal family have been arming the regime for years

[Papewaio]

Was arming Libya illegal?...seems there might be American and British intelligence agencies helping Gadaffi... I think they preferred him over a new terrorist... better the devil you know.

I'm pretty sure the US was trying to get Gadaffi to swap all his long range Scuds for short range (US if possible) missiles... can't beat him, try and chip away at their power and make a profit out of the bargin too... possibly one of the cases of smarter realpolitek around.

[Montmorency]

This (http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/index.cfm/articles/The-Arab-Spring-and-the-Future-of-US-Interests/2011/8/2#libya)doesn't seem particularly significant.


The ban on U.S. military exports to Libya officially ended on June 30, 2006, but the possibility of military exports to Libya remained a controversial subject for many policymakers in the United States, and little was done to establish significant military ties. Rather, in the time frame before the 2011 uprising, the Obama Administration only requested $250,000 in Foreign Military Financing and $350,000 for IMET for Libya in FY2011. This approach indicated that only the most tentative and limited military cooperation was moving forward, and all cooperation was discontinued following the anti-Qadhafi uprising and the imposition of a UN-sponsored “No-Fly Zone” (NFZ) over Libya. It is doubtful that the Libyan rebels of the Transitional National Council (TNC) will resent previous U.S. ties to the Qadhafi regime since they were so shallow and occurred for only a brief period of time.

[rory_20_uk]

Was arming Libya illegal?...seems there might be American and British intelligence agencies helping Gadaffi... I think they preferred him over a new terrorist... better the devil you know.

I'm pretty sure the US was trying to get Gadaffi to swap all his long range Scuds for short range (US if possible) missiles... can't beat him, try and chip away at their power and make a profit out of the bargin too... possibly one of the cases of smarter realpolitek around.

I am so pleased that MI6 does what is best for the UK. The enemy of my enemy is someone to deal with at a later date.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

edit, wrong

[Fluvius Camillus]

Ceasefire has ended today:

Both Bani Walid and Sirte besiegers are meeting heavy resistance from loyalists.

Also the NTC has sent a squad of 200 commando's to capture Khaddafi and they believe they know where he resides.

~Fluvius

[ICantSpellDawg]

Who here is ready for Syria?

[Viking]

There is no war in Syria. Intervening in Syria is a trickier business, since we can't just drop bombs.

[Viking]

Finally a more sober piece on what's left (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/23/us-libya-tribes-idUSTRE78M34920110923) of Libyan tribalism:


Libyans, diplomats and political analysts say this effort may be pushing at an open door. The country's scores of tribes carry weight in Libyan society, but less so in its politics, an activity dominated by an urban elite more attuned to provincial roots than blood relations.

Unlike in Yemen or Iraq, tribal leaders in Libya tend not to be household names, in part because Gaddafi worked assiduously over decades, like the Italian colonialists of the early 20th century, to sap their power by playing off one against the other.

But extended families and clans - smaller units than tribes -- have a big role in arbitrating property and business disputes, in career advancement and in mediating compensation demands arising, for example, from deaths or injuries in traffic accidents.

[...]

"Libya is an urban society. And for young people, the whole tribal thing doesn't compute," said Libyan political scientist Mansour El-Kikhia.

"The NTC has been put together on the basis of professional expertise rather than family. And even when fellow rebels have criticized it, they've done so on the ground of professional failings rather than on other criteria."

Very few towns in Libya are populated solely by one tribe, even if some are identified with one community. In Gaddafi's hometown Sirte, for example, his Gaddadfa community predominates.

A Tripoli businessman said his family didn't rely routinely on its tribe to get by in life.

"We get our services normally," said the businessman, who declined to be identified as he considered the matter sensitive. "The young generation don't even know about tribes. (A focus on tribes) is something that Gaddafi put in us."

[...]

The defection announced in August of Gaddafi's former right hand man, Abdel Salam Jalloud, a Magarha notable, helped carry a significant number of Magarha into the NTC camp, Libyans say.

Another pro-Gaddafi faction influenced by Gaddafi's security chief, Abdullah Senussi, remains loyal to Gaddafi.

Members of the Gaddadfa, and even some from his subclan, the Gahous, have deserted him.

Barrani Ashkal, an important player in the fall of Tripoli, is a Gaddadfa and a blood relative of Gaddafi's. His defection, as deputy head of military intelligence, ensured that a large number of Gaddafi soldiers were kept out of the battle.

[Prince Cobra]

Who here is ready for Syria?
You are joking, aren't you? :sweatdrop:

[Fragony]

You are joking, aren't you? :sweatdrop:

awwwwwwwww they aren't really nice either, mother went to collect body of her son, but also stumbled on her daughter, beheaded, arms missing, and probably skinned alive. That's just mean imho.

We got to $ave them it i$$ a $$$uch a noble cau$$$$e

[Montmorency]

Are you implying that we should round up the Syrian people and melt them down into gold?

[Fragony]

Are you implying that we should round up the Syrian people and melt them down into gold?

I am suggesting that what is being done in Libya is plunder. More of this and I'm going to join my friendly local RAF faction or Al Quaida.

[Montmorency]

Plunder, huh? For the oil, of course...

[Fragony]

Plunder, huh? For the oil, of course...

Of course it has nothing to do with the Gadaffi wanting to be payed in dinars and gold instead of euro's and dollars. Don't we all love Lybians anyway we got to save these civilians

40.000 deaths, some really have to put their priorities straight

[Fragony]

Kewl: Tawergha, a ghost town. Can anybody explain to me what happened to the +/- 20.000 black immigrants who lived there, I mean they are all gone

[Adrian II]

Kewl: Tawergha, a ghost town. Can anybody explain to me what happened to the +/- 20.000 black immigrants who lived there, I mean they are all gone

There have been quite a few reports about Tawergha in English language papers. Jesse Jackson has demanded an international investigation after this report (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903532804576564861187966284.html) in the WSJ.

AII

[rvg]

In Libya we had a choice: to do nothing or to do something. Either option meant that a whole bunch of people was gonna get killed. Gaddafi was the devil we knew but at the same time getting rid of him opened up a chance for Libya to become free and democratic. It's up to them to take that chance, but I think that giving them the opportunity for freedom is worth the lives lost. Yes, their treatment of Blacks is barbaric, but had we not intervened Gaddafi would have massacred half of Benghazi.

[rory_20_uk]

I never knew I voted for my taxes to be spent on exporting "democracy" to other countries. I never knew I lived in a Utopia where things were so good that there was spare money to spend on others - and not in an efficient way that saves the most people (e.g. extending a vaccine plan or providing clean water) no - dropping bombs on one lot against another. The next fight might start - hopefully only with words - when the disparate parts fight for power. What is done if there is a new dictator in some form or other? If elections are rigged? If a minority are scapegoated?

Bad things happen every day all over the place. That does not mean that the UK has any place getting involved unless it's within its own borders.

America borrows 40% of the money it spends. They have even less reason to go kicking hornet's nests.

The concept of "Make the world British" ended something like 100 or more years ago.

~:smoking:

[Subotan]

£1 billion for a new Arab democracy and 12 million Arabs who support NATO is a bargain.

[Fragony]

£1 billion for a new Arab democracy and 12 million Arabs who support NATO is a bargain.

Kidding me. Libya was one of the most socially advanced muslim nations if not the most advanced, we are helping the radicals and a lot of them aren't even Libyan. 60.000 dead estimated by now, infrastructure and whole towns destroyed, gee thx a lot

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Kidding me. Libya was one of the most socially advanced muslim nations if not the most advanced, we are helping the radicals and a lot of them aren't even Libyan. 60.000 dead estimated by now, infrastructure and whole towns destroyed, gee thx a lot

Rubbish, the head of the NTC is a Judge, and a secular one as well, at this point there are very few radicals in the Libyan opposition, proportionally speaking, because of the broad nature of the uprising, teachers, students, office workers, even the goalie for the national football team.

If all the God-talk bothers you I suggest you take a look at the speached made by the West during WWII, on all sides.

What we understand as "Secularism" today is a mostly post-war movement, and we shouldn't be suspicious simply because a group of people are religious, or more religious than us.

[Fragony]

'Rubbish, the head of the NTC is a Judge, and a secular one as well, at this point there are very few radicals in the Libyan opposition, proportionally speaking, because of the broad nature of the uprising, teachers, students, office workers, even the goalie for the national football team.'

Who can shoot?

[Lemur]

FWIW, the post-revolution recovery seems to be going better than expected (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/09/27/whats-behind-libyas-fast-march-to-democracy/).

Elementary schools opened last week. The university will open next month. Water and electricity are flowing. Uniformed police are on the street. Trash collection is haphazard but functioning.

This is the fastest post-war recovery I have witnessed: faster than Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or Afghanistan. Certainly faster than Somalia, Sierra Leone or Rwanda.

Why this rapid recovery in a country marked by four decades of dictatorship? Why does Libya seem on track while Egypt seems to have gone off the rails?

Libya has at least three important advantages: good leadership and clear goals at the national and local levels, careful planning and adequate resources.

[Fragony]

Post-war? Heard some less hallelujah-worthy things but we'll see

[Ignoramus]

Apparently things aren't quite so settled yet:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8828215/Libya-Fighting-in-Tripoli-breaks-out-between-pro-Gaddafi-forces-and-NTC-fighters.html

[Fragony]

Apparently things aren't quite so settled yet:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8828215/Libya-Fighting-in-Tripoli-breaks-out-between-pro-Gaddafi-forces-and-NTC-fighters.html

There is still massive fighting going on in loyalist strongholds. Rumour has it that the UK parachuted SAS who got badly pwned by loyalists, 24 dead, 12 captured.

[Viking]

More like propaganda.

[Fragony]

More like propaganda.

More like uncomfirmed, SAS getting pwned that is, not the heavy fighting. Propaganda would be telling it's ok to be bombing Libya because we just got to save these civilians, and it usually looks like what Lemur posted.

[Viking]

More like uncomfirmed, SAS getting pwned that is

The regime has been claiming to shoot down planes and what not since day 1. Nothing new.

[Fragony]

The regime has been claiming to shoot down planes and what not since day 1. Nothing new.

And rebels captured a ghadaffi-sonny how many times? Question, do you honestly believe we are equiping jets to save a few civilians. Ghadaffi isn't even that bad, he actually had the intention to reform way before the howling started, but it really isn't about that is it. Ghadaffi wanted to return to gold and dinar, which would be bad news for France and the US as they have assets there. I'm all for free economy but not at the expense of tens of thousands, or just one person at that. It's ugly and I love beauty

[Viking]

And rebels captured a ghadaffi-sonny how many times?

Which is relevant how?


Question, do you honestly believe we are equiping jets to save a few civilians.

I give a dam about the motives to the point where they effect the outcome.


Ghadaffi isn't even that bad, he actually had the intention to reform way before the howling started, but it really isn't about that is it.

Looks like they came to slow; what a shame. He only had 42 years to carry them out, after all.


Ghadaffi wanted to return to gold and dinar, which would be bad news for France and the US as they have assets there.

I'd be more easily convinced if you could show some numbers from realiable sources. Do also refer to #2.

[Hax]

The dinar is used in several Arab countries. I don‘t see the point

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There is still massive fighting going on in loyalist strongholds. Rumour has it that the UK parachuted SAS who got badly pwned by loyalists, 24 dead, 12 captured.

I think it exretemely unlikely that is remotely true, at this point there is very sittle to be by parachuting half an SAS squadron into Libya, or even a full Squadron if some escaped. The SAS tend to leave that sort of thing to paratroopers, not to mention They are rather busy in Afganistan right now.


Ghadaffi isn't even that bad, he actually had the intention to reform way before the howling started, but it really isn't about that is it.

His son Saif claimed he wanted to reform, but that facade fell when the protests started, and he came out as a chip of the old chopping block.

[PanzerJaeger]

Propaganda would be telling it's ok to be bombing Libya because we just got to save these civilians, and it usually looks like what Lemur posted.

Haha, nice one Frags. Don't let the same people who have been spreading nonsense about impending genocide, foreign mercenaries, and protecting civilians lecture you on propaganda.

[rory_20_uk]

There is still massive fighting going on in loyalist strongholds. Rumour has it that the UK parachuted SAS who got badly pwned by loyalists, 24 dead, 12 captured.

Using that many SAS at once on such an unimportant things seems a hellish risk. Losses like that would take possibly years to replace and for pretty small gains.

A lot of troops and no clear targets (even if Gadaffi et al were inside, nothing to be lost in ensuring a tight noose rather than risking one's best troops.

~:smoking:

[Viking]

Haha, nice one Frags. Don't let the same people who have been spreading nonsense about impending genocide, foreign mercenaries, and protecting civilians lecture you on propaganda.

I have never talked about 'protecting civilians'. I have not used the word 'genocide'. I have proved the use of foreign mercenaries with reliable, independent Western media sources. Nonsense is what you write.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Haha, nice one Frags. Don't let the same people who have been spreading nonsense about impending genocide, foreign mercenaries, and protecting civilians lecture you on propaganda.

Of course. Meanwhile when we return from “I don't like it” to facts we can observe two things (a) Gadaffi did employ mercenaries (but that is not a cause for war in and of itself), and (b) at the point where the bombing began there was very much the threat of wholesale slaughter. You may say that this is all just political posturing to further some imperialist goals, and you might be right.

Back to Frag's claims, then: SAS in Libya? Got the news reports somewhere of people in SAS uniforms being captured? (Don't bother with that months old item, now.)

I don't doubt there will be some SAS types on the ground, as they were there to do the reconnaissance for the rebel troop movements earlier and possibly take out a few Gadhaffi supporters on the way. But half a squadron captured without so much as a nice viral video or picture being mailed to, say, Al Jazeera? This smacks of Sharaf declaring that everything was absolutely going to be a glorious victory for Saddam's forces at the same time the Americans took Baghdad.

[Fragony]

I only claimed there is a rumour

[Slyspy]

Ah, the good old rumour of a rumour!

[Fragony]

Ah, the good old rumour of a rumour!

It's a rumour and just that. What is pretty clear though, this ain't over yet.

[PanzerJaeger]

I have never talked about 'protecting civilians'. I have not used the word 'genocide'. I have proved the use of foreign mercenaries with reliable, independent Western media sources. Nonsense is what you write.

My apologies. There has been so much propaganda thrown around by the supporters of this farce, it is difficult to attribute it to specific people months later. As to the mercenary lies that led to the public lynchings and wholesale slaughter of blacks in Libya in the name of hatred and racism, this has been discussed over and over again (http://www.npr.org/2011/07/08/137695040/questions-linger-who-is-fighting-for-gadhafi). To find the true foreigners fighting in Libya, one needs only to look to the coalition forces.



Of course. Meanwhile when we return from “I don't like it” to facts we can observe two things (a) Gadaffi did employ mercenaries (but that is not a cause for war in and of itself), and (b) at the point where the bombing began there was very much the threat of wholesale slaughter. You may say that this is all just political posturing to further some imperialist goals, and you might be right.


a) Conscription of black immigrant workers already living in Libya has no semblance to the claims the rebels and their Western backers spread during the beginning of the conflict and Western media went along with as fact. It was a deliberate, orchestrated propaganda campaign (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/amnesty-questions-claim-that-gaddafi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html), and the blood and misery of millions of black Libyans are on their hands.


Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since the start of the insurrection on 15 February, claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them. It also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.

b) Who says? We were specifically warned of an impending genocide - of " a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world." (Obama) Where's the evidence (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-0403-chapman-20110403,0,4286197.column)?


In his March 26 radio address, Obama said the United States acted because Gadhafi threatened "a bloodbath." Two days later, he asserted, "We knew that if we waited one more day, Benghazi — a city nearly the size of Charlotte (N.C.) — could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world."

Really? Obama implied that, absent our intervention, Gadhafi might have killed nearly 700,000 people, putting it in a class with the 1994 genocide in Rwanda. White House adviser Dennis Ross was only slightly less alarmist when he reportedly cited "the real or imminent possibility that up to a 100,000 people could be massacred."

But these are outlandish scenarios that go beyond any reasonable interpretation of Gadhafi's words. He said, "We will have no mercy on them" — but by "them," he plainly was referring to armed rebels ("traitors") who stand and fight, not all the city's inhabitants.

"We have left the way open to them," he said. "Escape. Let those who escape go forever." He pledged that "whoever hands over his weapons, stays at home without any weapons, whatever he did previously, he will be pardoned, protected."

Alan Kuperman, an associate professor at the University of Texas' Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs, is among those unconvinced by Obama's case. "Gadhafi," he told me, "did not massacre civilians in any of the other big cities he captured — Zawiya, Misrata, Ajdabiya — which together have a population equal to Benghazi. Yes, civilians were killed in a typical, ham-handed, Third World counterinsurgency. But civilians were not targeted for massacre as in Rwanda, Darfur, Burundi, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Bosnia, or even Kosovo after NATO intervention."

The rebels, however, knew that inflating their peril was their best hope for getting outside help. So, Kuperman says, they concocted the specter of genocide — and Obama believed it, or at least used it to justify intervention.

This conflict was built on lies, deceit, and imperial self interest. That would be fine, I guess, if only a dictator and his cronies were taken down (that was the plan for Iraq, after all). However, to get the population behind the war, a large and already abused segment was singled out and scapegoated - with awful consequences that will resound and impact the blacks in Libya for generations to come. They will always be seen as traitors to the revolution. God help them, because the West surely will not. :shame:

[Fragony]

:sweetheart: Don't have to be a pacifist to be disgusted by this senseless loss of life, and the worst is yet to come when the who gets what starts. Libya was doing fine

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

:sweetheart: Don't have to be a pacifist to be disgusted by this senseless loss of life, and the worst is yet to come when the who gets what starts. Libya was doing fine

Mercs, mainly from Chad and other parts of Africa, were driving around and shooting people on the streets at the start of the uprising, after Gadaffi's Air Force basically defected you were looking at, at best, Somalia II, at worst Somalia II preceeded by civilian massacres, of the like that are getting started in Syria, where 3,000 people have dies in the last few months.

A better question is why we aren't blowing up Syrian tanks yet.

[Noncommunist]

Mercs, mainly from Chad and other parts of Africa, were driving around and shooting people on the streets at the start of the uprising, after Gadaffi's Air Force basically defected you were looking at, at best, Somalia II, at worst Somalia II preceeded by civilian massacres, of the like that are getting started in Syria, where 3,000 people have dies in the last few months.

A better question is why we aren't blowing up Syrian tanks yet.

I suppose because the Syrian National Council doesn't have a base of operations within Syria and the Russians and Chinese are loathe to approve yet another war that could seriously heat up where their bases are.

And so far, the only government to recognized the Syrian National Council is Libya which is a bit distracted at the moment unlike France which did have a somewhat capable military.

[Viking]

[...]the blood and misery of millions of black Libyans are on their hands.

I doubt there are that many black Libyans. The ones among the rebels forces seem to be doing just fine.

[Fragony]

I doubt there are that many black Libyans. The ones among the rebels forces seem to be doing just fine.

No they are not, they are lynched, whole town is missing in fact. Black people are seen as sub-human by arabs they call them slaves. It's true that Ghaddafi had black mercenaries, and it's also true that a lot of the rebel forces aren't from Libya and are tearing it apart

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No they are not, they are lynched, whole town is missing in fact. Black people are seen as sub-human by arabs they call them slaves. It's true that Ghaddafi had black mercenaries, and it's also true that a lot of the rebel forces aren't from Libya and are tearing it apart

Evidence?

I expect their are foriegn fighters among the Libyans, causes tend to attract idealists, a "good war" sent Orwell to Spain and Byron to Greece.

Gadaffi supported black immigrants against his native Libyans, he created a situation where they were reliant on his regime for security. This is not the result of a deep inborn hatred of Blacks, this is a result of divide and rule.

[Viking]

No they are not, they are lynched, whole town is missing in fact. Black people are seen as sub-human by arabs they call them slaves. It's true that Ghaddafi had black mercenaries, and it's also true that a lot of the rebel forces aren't from Libya and are tearing it apart

'Black Libyans among the rebel forces' translates to 'black rebel soldiers', and they appear to be doing just fine. As for the 'tearing apart' bit, I am sure you have solid evidence for this.

[Fragony]

'Black Libyans among the rebel forces' translates to 'black rebel soldiers', and they appear to be doing just fine. As for the 'tearing apart' bit, I am sure you have solid evidence for this.

Got no evidence no, was kinda wondering where these 40.000 black immigrants went myself really, all i know is that they are all gone

[PanzerJaeger]

I doubt there are that many black Libyans. The ones among the rebels forces seem to be doing just fine.

That should have read 'blacks in Libya'.

[Beskar]

Last City, Sirte, has been taken.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15384335

[Subotan]

Apparently, Gaddafi has been captured in Sirte. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/oct/20/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live) That will explain why they refused to surrender.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Problem is that the Dutch PM has spoken on the matter. That is worrying given his poor track record at being right ... :juggle:

[Shaka_Khan]

I wonder what history will think about this and Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Yemen, etc. I had doubts about the outcome of Iraq from the beginning as I was concerned about the safety of the soldiers and the Iraqis, but I also heard that Iraq's situation has improved a bit not long ago. If Iraq and Afghanistan turn out to go well, but I still doubt about Afghanistan very much, then I think a part of Bush's plan might be working better than we thought. That is if events in Iraq had anything to do with this. Of course NATO including the US helped in Libya directly.

[Vladimir]

I wonder what history will think about this and Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Yemen, etc. I had doubts about the outcome of Iraq from the beginning as I was concerned about the safety of the soldiers and the Iraqis, but I also heard that Iraq's situation has improved a bit not long ago. If Iraq and Afghanistan turn out to go well, but I still doubt about Afghanistan very much, then I think a part of Bush's plan might be working better than we thought. That is if events in Iraq had anything to do with this. Of course NATO including the US helped in Libya directly.

As much of a 43 supporter that I am his plan for Iraq was week but laudable. I see the effects of the invasion having a long term positive effect but I doubt much thought was given to topics like isolating Iran or how a democratic/parliamentary Iraq would change a typically despotic region.

Short term gains won the day. I have no idea what's going to happen in Libya.

[Beskar]

He has been killed, he isn't captured any longer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15389550

[Lemur]

Obit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6A5WXVuy_o

[Vladimir]

Are we following .org rules on this one? Is he in the ground yet?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Didn't seem to matter too much when Bin Laden copped it and they were both about equally popular.

[Beskar]

Are we following .org rules on this one? Is he in the ground yet?

Unsure about the details.

I would appreciate it that we simply link mainstream news reports of the matter for factual information at this time until more information is published about the matter for at least within 24 hour window.

[Lemur]

Didn't seem to matter too much when Bin Laden copped it and they were both about equally popular.
OBL had already been buried at sea when the news broke, so that was a very different circumstance. No idea what the status is of the Colonel's remains.

[Viking]

Video appearing to show Gaddafi when he was still alive:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&noredirect=1

[Fragony]

He has been killed, he isn't captured any longer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15389550

How very nice, now would be a good time to reth- oh wait it's too late for that misery is next. you just opened the gates for full slaughther. Do we ever learn from our mistakes, shame on us

[Tellos Athenaios]

OBL had already been buried at sea when the news broke, so that was a very different circumstance. No idea what the status is of the Colonel's remains.

Fair enough.

[Adrian II]

Video appearing to show Gaddafi when he was still alive:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&noredirect=1

Well, so much for the story that he died in a fight. Ugly footage nonetheless. And he's gonna need his Allah where he is going.

AII

[Samurai Waki]

Well, so much for the story that he died in a fight. Ugly footage nonetheless. And he's gonna need his Allah where he is going.

AII

He looks like he got shot a few times... maybe he was nearing death at the time of capture. In any case, this was the fate he wanted.

[Hax]

I've never heard an Arab say that so many times without something blowing up.

And a basic course of Islamology would do you good, sir.

[Papewaio]

Recognise the humanity even in the worst of us.

Yes, I think he got what he ultimately deserved.

Yes, I ultimately think a trial would have got more mileage from a sane person.

One of the better quotes:

Mansour el Ferjani, 49, a Benghazi bank clerk and father of five posed for a photograph holding a Kalashnikov rifle: "Don't think I will give this gun to my son," he said. "Now that the war is over we must give up our weapons and the children must go to school.

"But Gaddafi was a terrible dictator and this was the only way to get rid of him. We want everything people have in free countries - want people to live in peace as you do across the Mediterranean where life doesn't require the machinegun."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/muammar-gaddafi-dead-20111021-1maw9.html#ixzz1bM4XoAUT

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Recognise the humanity even in the worst of us.

Yes, I think he got what he ultimately deserved.

Yes, I ultimately think a trial would have got more mileage from a sane person.

One of the better quotes:

If I were a Libyan I might have done worse.

[johnhughthom]

Ref the quote in Pape's post: If you want what people who live in free countries have, going around killing people without trial, no matter what they have done, is not a good way to start. Oh, I know, he tried to escape. I don't think the guy we have seen in so many videos looked in any shape for an escape attempt.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I never knew I voted for my taxes to be spent on exporting "democracy" to other countries. I never knew I lived in a Utopia where things were so good that there was spare money to spend on others - and not in an efficient way that saves the most people (e.g. extending a vaccine plan or providing clean water) no - dropping bombs on one lot against another. The next fight might start - hopefully only with words - when the disparate parts fight for power. What is done if there is a new dictator in some form or other? If elections are rigged? If a minority are scapegoated?

Bad things happen every day all over the place. That does not mean that the UK has any place getting involved unless it's within its own borders.

America borrows 40% of the money it spends. They have even less reason to go kicking hornet's nests.

The concept of "Make the world British" ended something like 100 or more years ago.

~:smoking:

We used to make money by exploiting populations for our benefit which used to serve us just fine - I'm not judging anyone. I believe that we have hit a point in time where exploitation is no longer acceptable, but the problem is this; without exploitation - with egalitarianism - we have no standing to maintain our existing parity over the rest of the world. We are left in a conundrum where we are unable to exploit the masses and must elevate them, but this leads to a reduction in our own relative parity. In my opinion, we must accelerate this through a controlled relative decline (not actual decline, only in relation to other cultures), but we cannot do this with the current leadership that illegitimately rules over its people in many parts of the world. We must aid in hatching out all poisons in the muck while we deflate out own grandeur and help educate the world. This is different from colonialism - this is post-colonialism. I can't see another way out, no matter how hard the Federal reserve tries to inflate our economy - we are left to see what fair competition with the rest of the world does to the value of the American worker. I find myself often breathing a sigh of relief when I get a customer service rep from Hyderabad rather than the one from Ohio. Similar educational levels without the entitlement complex.

Show me the moral code which says that it is somehow wrong to go this route and I'll show you a void.

[Samurai Waki]

We used to make money by exploiting populations for our benefit which used to serve us just fine - I'm not judging anyone. I believe that we have hit a point in time where exploitation is no longer acceptable, but the problem is this; without exploitation - with egalitarianism - we have no standing to maintain our existing parity over the rest of the world. We are left in a conundrum where we are unable to exploit the masses and must elevate them, but this leads to a reduction in our own relative parity. In my opinion, we must accelerate this through a controlled relative decline (not actual decline, only in relation to other cultures), but we cannot do this with the current leadership that illegitimately rules over its people in many parts of the world. We must aid in hatching out all poisons in the muck while we deflate out own grandeur and help educate the world. This is different from colonialism - this is post-colonialism. I can't see another way out, no matter how hard the Federal reserve tries to inflate our economy - we are left to see what fair competition with the rest of the world does to the value of the American worker. I find myself often breathing a sigh of relief when I get a customer service rep from Hyderabad rather than the one from Ohio. Similar educational levels without the entitlement complex.

Show me the moral code which says that it is somehow wrong to go this route and I'll show you a void.

Bingo.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ref the quote in Pape's post: If you want what people who live in free countries have, going around killing people without trial, no matter what they have done, is not a good way to start. Oh, I know, he tried to escape. I don't think the guy we have seen in so many videos looked in any shape for an escape attempt.

What did Italy do to their brutal dictator?

That's how Tyranny ends.

[CountArach]

This discussion has drifted into unpleasant areas. Please return it to where it was.

[Ronin]

so...I guess they are going to need a new beloved leader/evil dictator.

is there any place where one might send a CV??

[Tellos Athenaios]

What did Italy do to their brutal dictator?

That's how Tyranny ends.

... Though if Italy is anything to go by, Papewaio's warning might need to be taken more rather than less seriously here.

[Adrian II]

OK, let's try a different tangent for this thread.

Since we are wargamers, what do you guys know (or think) of the Lybian rebels' 'funnies' such as this armoured car, scratch-bilt from a bulldozer and fitted with firing ports with shutters on all sides?

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5989/lybia1.jpg

https://img641.imageshack.us/img641/438/lybia2.jpg

AII

[InsaneApache]

I think I'd rather be an infantryman than get in that deathtrap.

[Fragony]

If I were a Libyan I might have done worse.

Be glad, had you been a Libyan you would got much worse, right now or at least this week

[Ronin]

Since we are wargamers, what do you guys know (or think) of the Lybian rebels' 'funnies' such as this armoured car, scratch-bilt from a bulldozer and fitted with firing ports with shutters on all sides?


So the A-Team was big in Libya I gather?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Be glad, had you been a Libyan you would got much worse, right now or at least this week

From your repeated banging of the DOOM drum I think we are going to have to assume you are think Arabs are just evil. Seriously Frag, it's not that bad over there - they're reopening the schools, they have water and electricity. Sure, Gadaffi's supporters, including his black immigrants, are not too comfortable right now, but overwhlemingly the picture is positive - at least as positive as the immidiate aftermath of liberation in Occupied France after WWII.

That's what you have to compare it to, not our current lives, where we are all stinking rich, looked after by the state, have unbelievably low levels of government and corporate corruption and haven't had a major war or natural disaster for over half a century.

[Fragony]

Makes you think I find the arabs evil, unlike the NATO I just think it's just better to not meddle in what we don't understand. I don't have to defend anything as over 60.000 people are already dead, that's a massacre imho, and they really didn't need to die

[Viking]

60 000 people haven't died, that's complete nonsense. Some thousands have died; many before the NATO intervention began. Many are also fighters.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

60 000 people haven't died, that's complete nonsense. Some thousands have died; many before the NATO internvention began. Many are also fighters.

Right, 60,000 is also 1% of the total population - and with constant NATO recon it's likely we would have seen massacres by NTC forces, and Gadaffi was gearing up for massacres anyway.

Go back to Feburary and read the news again, Frag. Without intervention it would have been a one sided bloodbath.

Now, if only Europe would get behind Palastinian statehood at the UN, we might actually be able to have friendly relations with the Arab world after 1,400 years.

[Fragony]

Even Reuters comferms at least 40.000 by the Red Cross, estimated much much more maybe even over a hundred, check your news-sources yourselve

[Viking]

~ 170 people killed per day for 8 months? No way; the only estimate at 40 000 that I see, is from the NTC. The numbers do not add up.

You will find that on average, the NATO bombing moved the front lines out of the cities and in to the surrounding areas; this because the rebel forces were the best at urban warfare (their home towns).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

~ 170 people killed per day for 8 months? No way; the only estimate at 40 000 that I see, is from the NTC. The numbers do not add up.

You will find that on average, the NATO bombing moved the front lines out of the cities and in to the surrounding areas; this because the rebel forces were the best at urban warfare (their home towns).

Even so, non combatants were mainly killed by Gadaffi, and he would have done that even if NATO had no intervened. Not to mention all the other people he has killed over the years.

[Ja'chyra]

So the New Libyan Army assualting toens never killed civilians?

Our justification for the war ended when Gaddafi was paraded alive and then turned up inexplicably dead. Now don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less that he's dead but when we justify intevention with protecting lives that must mean all lives, not just the poeple we like.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So the New Libyan Army assualting toens never killed civilians?

Our justification for the war ended when Gaddafi was paraded alive and then turned up inexplicably dead. Now don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less that he's dead but when we justify intevention with protecting lives that must mean all lives, not just the poeple we like.

Civilians leaving Sirte were checked for weapons and sent on their way, they expected to be shot. Dissenters who stayed inside Sirte were shot.

There's the difference.

[Adrian II]

Even Reuters comferms at least 40.000 by the Red Cross, estimated much much more maybe even over a hundred, check your news-sources yourselve

I can find neither a Reuters message nor a Red Cross communiqué on this. Where did you find those?

AII

[Greyblades]

OK, let's try a different tangent for this thread.

Since we are wargamers, what do you guys know (or think) of the Lybian rebels' 'funnies' such as this armoured car, scratch-bilt from a bulldozer and fitted with firing ports with shutters on all sides?

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5989/lybia1.jpg

https://img641.imageshack.us/img641/438/lybia2.jpg

AII

It reminds me of Jonsey's van from dad's army. Only slightly, though.

[PanzerJaeger]

It seems increasingly obvious that the three big players killed in Thursday's battle in Sirte were captured alive and then summarily executed. It seems like that would have been the quentisential moment for the new Libya to demonstrate a commitment to human rights and the rule of law that the old Libya lacked, but as we've seen over and over again, the NTC is more interested in vengeance against real and imaginary enemies than such lofty ideals. It is ironic, though, that both Qaddafi's Libya and now 'free' Libya were founded in summary execution. The leadership has changed, but the bodies of innocents still hung from lamp posts across the country. :shame:

That being said, as an American I could not help but think of the victims of the bombing of Pan Am 103, especially the 35 students from Syracuse University coming home to spend Christmas with their families, when I heard the news. Qaddafi chose to live by the sword, most of his victims did not.




Right, 60,000 is also 1% of the total population - and with constant NATO recon it's likely we would have seen massacres by NTC forces, and Gadaffi was gearing up for massacres anyway.

Why are these myths still being repeated as fact?


Go back to Feburary and read the news again, Frag. Without intervention it would have been a one sided bloodbath.

Much of that 'news' has since turned out to be complete fabrication... baseless propaganda, breathlessly reported.