Fearmongering at its finest

[Strike For The South]

http://blogs.chron.com/texaspolitics/archives/2011/02/texas_demograph.html



"It's basically over for Anglos."


I think I speak for everyone here when I say "blow me"

~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:)
Smilies included to avoid warning points

[Tellos Athenaios]

2040? What, there would be a Texas to ruin by then? I thought Texas would've been ruined before then by King Perry?

[PanzerJaeger]

I think the big underlying fear here is that there are ethnic and cultural components to the strength of America's institutions (versus those of Mexico), that Mexicans, especially new immigrants, will undermine based on their experiences and traditions back home. People do not want to say it because they fear being labeled racist.

[Tuuvi]

The state's future looks bleak assuming the current trend line does not change because education and income levels for Hispanics lag considerably behind Anglos, he said.

Close the income gap between whites and hispanics and problem solved it seems like to me.


I think the big underlying fear here is that there are ethnic and cultural components to the strength of America's institutions (versus those of Mexico), that Mexicans, especially new immigrants, will undermine based on their experiences and traditions back home. People do not want to say it because they fear being labeled racist.

Yea that could be an issue with some people but the article said that much of the growth was natural and came from other states. Plus the children of those who are immigrants will grow up in the states and will not have the same experiences and cultural values.

[HoreTore]

I think the big underlying fear here is that there are ethnic and cultural components to the strength of America's institutions (versus those of Mexico), that Mexicans, especially new immigrants, will undermine based on their experiences and traditions back home. People do not want to say it because they fear being labeled racist.

Yeah, Spain is a real mess.

/sarcasm

[Tuuvi]

Yeah, Spain is a real mess.

/sarcasm

Like I already said earlier I don't really agree with Panzer, but Mexican culture is different from Spanish culture. Mexico is pretty heavily influenced by its native cultures.

EDIT: and Panzer does have a point, corruption is pretty common in Latin America. I just don't think it causes a problem with US immigration because it's not a core component of Latin culture and the children of those immigrants won't have the same experiences with corruption, etc. as their parents did and so will be more used to American government and lifestyles.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Yeah, Spain is a real mess.

/sarcasm

Spain has very little to do with Latin America today. Have you been doing your homework?

[PanzerJaeger]

Yeah, Spain is a real mess.

/sarcasm

Historically, yes. Spanish democratic institutions have been traditionally weak for many of the same reasons that Mexico's have, owing to their shared heritage.

Of course, as has been mentioned, Spain is not Mexico. There are many factors, some Spanish in origin and some tribal, that contributed to the diverging paths Mexico and the United States have taken despite the two country's similar geneses.

[Centurion1]

Yeah, Spain is a real mess.

/sarcasm

yes because mexicans are just spainards of course and perfectly model their country.

/sarcasm

[Ironside]

Meh. The thing with demographic studies is that the population changes aren't constant, making some extrapolations quite flawed. The Swedish population was estimated to be around 8.4 millions and decreasing atm from studies in the 1980-ties.

It's 9.4 millions and increasing nowadays. Need I mention that the study was extrapolated from a period with unusually low birth and immigration numbers?

[Louis VI the Fat]

http://blogs.chron.com/texaspolitics/archives/2011/02/texas_demograph.html



I think I speak for everyone here when I say "blow me"

~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:)
Smilies included to avoid warning pointsFearmongering? Do you mean that the demographic replacement is untrue, or that one need not fear it?


As for the former, countries and territories have seen their population replaced before. Why, Texas itself changed in the 19th century from a Hispanic state to an Anglo state. The reverse is happening now. Non-Hispanic White is already a minority and will continue to shrink for the foreseeable future, in a few decades time it is just a small minority, such as 'Asian' in Calfornia is now.


As to the latter, whether to 'fear' it or not is a matter of personal preference. I must say I still need to get used to the idea of Western Civilisation having decided to abolish itself. I feel like a Gallo-Roman in the fifth century. Yes in a thousand years there will still be a roman language and the fields will still get tilled, but it will be another civilisation. A synthesis between the old and new. :drama1:

America's Hispanic population is not an Anglo population who speak Spanish at home and are Catholic. They are Hispanic. Texas will be Hispanicised because of it.

[InsaneApache]

I'd say that you guys have bigger problems than a load of Spanish speakers.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG6X-xtVask&feature=player_embedded

One man. One vote.

Yeah right. :playingball:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Worse still: why do those lawmakers sound like they're stuffed with sedatives?

[Hosakawa Tito]

I'd say that you guys have bigger problems than a load of Spanish speakers.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG6X-xtVask&feature=player_embedded

One man. One vote.

Yeah right. :playingball:

Hehehe, nice find IA. Time for Texas voters to put the heat on their representatives. There's no reason they couldn't schedule bathroom & lunch breaks. I bet many of the missing aren't even in the building at all.

[Husar]

Simple to solve.
Some kind of plexiglass dome over the voting buttons that only the key of the lawmaker can open. One of the security guy checks whether all the domes are closed and locked after every session/during toilet breaks.
Lawmakers get merit-based pay, if they never come to vote, they get 4$ an hour only, have to rely on tips/donations by their fanbase(which should be huge if they never vote on anything :laugh4:).

About the whole replacement of population issue I think Louis is right.

[Don Corleone]

Does the traditionally "white, non-hispanic" group have lower birth/population growth rates than other racial/ethnic groups in the USA? Sure. This is important because....???

The "white" race is a fallacy. It was created by WASPs to establish a heirarchy of bloodline descent that is inherently UN-American. At various times in American history, Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, even French were all considered "non-White", because of the fact that they weren't Protestant (and what has THAT got to do with ethnic/racial make-up)?

It is my most sincere hope that by the time 2040 rolls around, the very concept of race will be so antiquated as to puzzle most people why it should be important (akin to the way we own land-ownership of at least an acre today).

If so-called "white" America wants to continue to set themselves apart and then whine that they don't have a supermajority over all ethnic groups combined, then they deserve the sleepless nights and the agite' such backwards thinking will almost certainly bring.

Better yet, drop yesterday's conventions and embrace our post-racial "American" identity... and revel in the accomplishments of our brothers and sisters.

[Lemur]

Better yet, drop yesterday's conventions and embrace our post-racial "American" identity... and revel in the accomplishments of our brothers and sisters.
Amen, and can I get a hallelujah.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Hallelujah brother!

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

Does the traditionally "white, non-hispanic" group have lower birth/population growth rates than other racial/ethnic groups in the USA? Sure. This is important because....???

The "white" race is a fallacy. It was created by WASPs to establish a heirarchy of bloodline descent that is inherently UN-American. At various times in American history, Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, even French were all considered "non-White", because of the fact that they weren't Protestant (and what has THAT got to do with ethnic/racial make-up)?

It is my most sincere hope that by the time 2040 rolls around, the very concept of race will be so antiquated as to puzzle most people why it should be important (akin to the way we own land-ownership of at least an acre today).

If so-called "white" America wants to continue to set themselves apart and then whine that they don't have a supermajority over all ethnic groups combined, then they deserve the sleepless nights and the agite' such backwards thinking will almost certainly bring.

Better yet, drop yesterday's conventions and embrace our post-racial "American" identity... and revel in the accomplishments of our brothers and sisters.

I don't think the issue is race, but culture. Many Americans look at Mexico and do not want that reality for themselves. The question is whether the problems with Mexico (corruption, tribalism, poor economic development) are inherent to Mexican culture or if Mexico was simply the victim of poor fate.

The very un-PC truth is that the American system, which for all its faults has been very successful, was created by Protestant Europeans for Protestant Europeans. As its basis, it relies on many Northern European norms that may or may not translate to other cultures. As long as that majority has held, America has been very successful at, sometimes forcefully, assimilating other groups into the national culture. However, when that majority is replaced, the system itself is challenged. For example, look at the state of democratic institutions in cities like Detroit, Washington DC, and Birmingham. Corruption, cronyism, block-voting, and poor leadership are widespread and common in black majority areas. Another very un-PC truth: black American culture seems to have different 'standards' for their leadership than other Euro-American subcultures.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, even French were all considered "non-White", because of the fact that they weren't Protestant (and what has THAT got to do with ethnic/racial make-up).

Everything.

Anyway, PJ is speaking the truth. America was founded on white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant principles, by, well... white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants. If you stand by the constitution you are standing by WASP ideals, because America is at heart a WASP country.

At the individual level race might not be a great indicator of a persons character, but when dealing with greater demographics and population shifts etc it is very important and heavily intertwined with a whole host of other factors.

Small numbers of immigrants can be assimilated, but when they come in at such a rate that they become the majority population, then this no longer holds true. And obviously they will bring their own values with them, which are shaped by a very different social/political climate.

This doesn't necessarily mean the article wasn't fearmongering. It is likely that as Hispanics break into the middle-class, their birth rates will drop significantly. How far they will assimilate is also hard to determine, and can only be seen with time...

[Don Corleone]

Rhyf & PJ, you're arguing about ideas and ideals. Are you right, that western liberalism PWNs Mexican tribalism, Middle-Eastern Sharia or other quasi-legal systems our newer immingrants are bringing along with them? Of course!

But the two of you seem to be making the case that there's a genetic component to this. My people are micks and wops. Somehow, even our benighted races managed to understand the glories of democracy, liberalism in the markets (tempered with a moral does of socialism), despite early adherence to distinctly tribalistic government/economic systems (Tammany Hall, anyone?).

In fact, my very existence, a right of center (though far from rightist) Republican seems to dismiss your argument that too many immigrants from dissimilar ideological systems will lose the war of ideas for us.

Have some faith in your ideas, Gents. (Being a mongrel Harp/Dago, I hope I'm allowed to refer to the rest of you as Gents).

[Don Corleone]

Everything.

Then call your special breed what you actually differentiate on... You're not White, you're The Northern European Postestant Xenophobes. No fair taking money from my dumber mick and guinney cousins at your Klan rallies when they're next on your hit-list, once you get all these pesky spics and towel-heads put in their place.

Honestly Rhyf, from previous posts, I knew you had hostility for people from Catholic backgrounds... I didn't realize you thought we were "weak in the blood".

[PanzerJaeger]

But the two of you seem to be making the case that there's a genetic component to this. My people are micks and wops. Somehow, even our benighted races managed to understand the glories of democracy, liberalism in the markets (tempered with a moral does of socialism), despite early adherence to distinctly tribalistic government/economic systems (Tammany Hall, anyone?).


The critical difference, which the article highlighted, is that the new (and subjectively inferior (http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results)) culture will soon outnumber the host culture. Irish immigrants, which were much more similar in culture than Mexicans are today, never comprimised a majority in New York. Assimilation requires a strong, dominating host culture.

There is little reason to believe that Mexicans suddenly abandon their deep rooted cultural norms (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/us/18corrupt.html?pagewanted=all) when they cross the border (http://www.federaltimes.com/article/20100311/DEPARTMENTS03/3110304/1018/DEPARTMENTS); and thus it is not a question of if this demographic shift will change Texas, and the United States as a whole, but how. Concerns over the extent and severity of those changes are legitimate.

[Samurai Waki]

Irish Catholics + German (Austrian) Catholics + 3 Generations in America = American. Don't care much about religion anyways. I don't see how you could think that this won't happen with Hispanic immigrants, as I see a very strong (2nd, 3rd Generation) break from Latin Americans who are 1st or 2nd Generation. The difference of course is that Latin America is close-by compared to Europe, so familial ties may be stronger, but a larger component is the ability to travel long distances in general, which American immigrants couldn't do during the last major waves of immigration. The same is true of recent Indian/Asian immigrants, but within the 2nd to 3rd Generation it seems like connection "Back home" weakens with time.