The right of homophobes to adopt children [Archive]

Rhyfelwyr

02-28-2011, 17:01

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12598896

This puts an unusal spin on the 'can gays adopt' debate... seems we are going the other way in the UK (the only place in Britain where gays can't adopt is Northern Ireland).

So, are homophobic couples not capable of providing a caring environment for children?

It is only a matter of time before such wonderful leftist logic leads to the government taking children off of homophobic parents even when they are their biological children.

It's not even just about leftists anymore, its just as common in the centre-right. Screw Labour and their police state, screw Tories and LibDems, I'm running out of reasons not to vote BNP.

Beskar

02-28-2011, 17:16

I'm running out of reasons not to vote BNP.

:inquisitive:

I know you are a fan of flammable arguments, but that comment is pure rhetoric on the grounds of "I pick the worse there is, and say it is good, because things are so bad!™ ".

Don't be silly, it detracts from what you are saying.

In the same vein, slippery slope arguments about government removing children from 'homophobic parents', will not be happening because it is completely unreasonable. Especially considering the socio-economical burden it would place on society, ensuring legal challenges and court battles, and an overhaul of the entire legal system and framework on the right of parents and bearing children.

Then again, what would happen to the poor child if they turn out to be homosexual ? These are factors that have to be carefully considered. The children in foster care are extremely vulnerable and at risk, they need unconditional love and attention to be able to lead a 'normal life'. Being put under strain or abandoned because of the 'adopted' parents belief would only complicate matters further.

It is not about saying "Homosexuality is good", it is about accepting the choice of the individual, and being there for them, even through difficult times.

Husar

02-28-2011, 18:24

It is not about saying "Homosexuality is good", it is about accepting the choice of the individual, and being there for them, even through difficult times.

That's the big question, saying you don't approve of it doesn't mean you're going to abandon the child. I don't abandon my country the minute my government does something I disagree with, except if it's something very radical and big perhaps. Sure they wouldn't encourage the child and may not want it to invite a same sex boy- or girlfriend to their home but that is still different from abandoning the child, if they really love the child, their opinion may even sway or at least become less extreme, if one can say that it's extreme in the first place.

Fragony

02-28-2011, 18:47

BNP are scum, England needs a decent no-nonsense anti-leftist party.

Great spin-off RH, I am desperate for a response at least

Beskar

02-28-2011, 18:48

That's the big question, saying you don't approve of it doesn't mean you're going to abandon the child. I don't abandon my country the minute my government does something I disagree with, except if it's something very radical and big perhaps. Sure they wouldn't encourage the child and may not want it to invite a same sex boy- or girlfriend to their home but that is still different from abandoning the child, if they really love the child, their opinion may even sway or at least become less extreme, if one can say that it's extreme in the first place.

Indeed. If anything, all they might need is some class about homosexuality and for the parent to sign that in event of the child's sexuality, they would not abandon them and accept their choice.

Beskar

02-28-2011, 18:52

BNP are scum, England needs a decent no-nonsense anti-leftist party.

"Anti-Leftist" is such an misnomer. What is it to be "Left" and "Anti-Left" ? Since the basics of Left-wing in the ideologies deemed to be 'left-wing' are "equality and freedom from oppression", is to be anti-left "Discriminatory and Oppressive" ?

Many "Right-wing" groupings simply have more important priorities in their opinion, but fundamentally follow hold such notions such as liberty, it is only those which do idolize discrimination and oppression which don't.

Fragony

02-28-2011, 19:04

Indeed. If anything, all they might need is some class about homosexuality and for the parent to sign that in event of the child's sexuality, they would not abandon them and accept their choice.

And you are so sure that's a good idea because of what

Tellos Athenaios

02-28-2011, 19:15

Homophobe's should be able to adopt children just like any other foster parents. Convicted pedophiles, rapists and so on “ehrm, maybe not”.

Fragony

02-28-2011, 19:24

Homophobe's should be able to adopt children just like any other foster parents.

Oh? No they shouldn't. Sorry but you guys are nuts

Rhyfelwyr

02-28-2011, 19:25

I know you are a fan of flammable arguments, but that comment is pure rhetoric on the grounds of "I pick the worse there is, and say it is good, because things are so bad!™ ".

Don't be silly, it detracts from what you are saying.

What is worse than what our current mainstream parties are doing, thinking they are the thought police and can do things like in the OP?

As Husar pointed out, having moral objections doesn't mean the parents will abandon the child. Or should we ban atheist parents from raising children in case the kid turns out religious and they might abandon it(or vice-versa)?

This is just leftists populism and pandering to the pc-brigade, who will stick their nose into every aspect of everyones lives because there has to be equality.

BNP are scum, England needs a decent no-nonsense anti-leftist party.

Great spin-off RH, I am desperate for a response at least

I love you, but sometimes I can't understand you (bit in bold I mean). :embarassed:

I agree I do not like the BNP much, but they seem a less scary option than the path we are going down right now.

Beskar

02-28-2011, 20:09

What is worse than what our current mainstream parties are doing, thinking they are the thought police and can do things like in the OP?

Perhaps "minorities" based on skin colour being sent "home" to countries they have never stepped foot in. Active discrimination in practice and discourse based on fear-mongering fueled by the very people tasked to 'deal with it'. Kissing good bye to human rights as minorities of skin, colour, creed, religion and sexual preference are persecuted.

Please don't be ignorant. You know full well what is at sake if they were ever elected. It is a clear case of "Reductio ad Hitlerum" where you are by virtue, advocating Hilter opposed to the status quo, but in a British political context.

Tellos Athenaios

02-28-2011, 20:55

Oh? No they shouldn't. Sorry but you guys are nuts

There's an awful what-if going on. Practical reality is, kids that don't get adopted are put in prison simply because there's no other place for them. Ratio of foster homes to kids is less than 1. So keeping that in mind, what are you going to do? Enforce your own views on foster parents over an unlikely what-if scenario? (What-if the kid turns out homosexual, what-if homophobe parents can't shelve their pride -- but what if they can, or what if the kid doesn't...?)

Or are you going to accept that some foster homes are not your 100% model ideal home, but still 99% there and therefore a much better option than nothing? (Meaning: jail for the kid, btw.)

Mind you, if the adoption bureau simply has scores of enthusiastic foster parents waiting their chance to raise a foster child: sure, let them raise the requirements for the better. But that's right now not realistic, and actually to the detriment of the children they seek to provide with a better life.

HoreTore

02-28-2011, 21:16

Homophobia is an opinion, a choice if you will, that can be changed in an instant.

Homosexuality cannot be changed. It will forever be a part of what someone is.

Also, good old Karl urges you to return to the good side of the Force, Rhy. Your structural view of marxism is a lot sexier than your fire and brimstone...

Strike For The South

02-28-2011, 21:29

The orphanage is a much better place for these kids

Rhyfelwyr

02-28-2011, 21:42

Perhaps "minorities" based on skin colour being sent "home" to countries they have never stepped foot in. Active discrimination in practice and discourse based on fear-mongering fueled by the very people tasked to 'deal with it'. Kissing good bye to human rights as minorities of skin, colour, creed, religion and sexual preference are persecuted.

Please don't be ignorant. You know full well what is at sake if they were ever elected. It is a clear case of "Reductio ad Hitlerum" where you are by virtue, advocating Hilter opposed to the status quo, but in a British political context.

Complete nonsense, the BNP are very different from the NSDAP. For a start they have a Sikh member, plus they have said themselves they have no problem with productive minorities in the UK. They are not even national socialists, their economic policy is quite a bottom-up community-based idealistic notion by the name of 'distributism'... if you are wondering why I know this crap, its not because I am fascinated with the BNP, the far-right in Britain just takes much of its inspiration from elements of Ulster/Scottish loyalist circles, they came up with it back in the 70's.

Also, good old Karl urges you to return to the good side of the Force, Rhy. Your structural view of marxism is a lot sexier than your fire and brimstone...

Yeah but nobody appreciates my structural view of marxism, fire and brimstone is much more fun...

Anyway, I'm not really going to vote BNP, I just said that in the heat of the moment. But I still do not think they are as bad as what people say, I know a fair few people who support them and they only do so because they feel betrayed by everyone else and can't get a decent job/pension/whatever. They are not demons like you think.

Strike For The South

02-28-2011, 21:50

Complete nonsense, the BNP are very different from the NSDAP. For a start they have a Sikh member, plus they have said themselves they have no problem with productive minorities in the UK. They are not even national socialists, their economic policy is quite a bottom-up community-based idealistic notion by the name of 'distributism'... if you are wondering why I know this crap, its not because I am fascinated with the BNP, the far-right in Britain just takes much of its inspiration from elements of Ulster/Scottish loyalist circles, they came up with it back in the 70's.

Yeah but nobody appreciates my structural view of marxism, fire and brimstone is much more fun...

Anyway, I'm not really going to vote BNP, I just said that in the heat of the moment. But I still do not think they are as bad as what people say, I know a fair few people who support them and they only do so because they feel betrayed by everyone else and can't get a decent job/pension/whatever. They are not demons like you think.

~:) I like you

PanzerJaeger

02-28-2011, 22:06

Then again, what would happen to the poor child if they turn out to be homosexual ?

Indeed, it would be like placing a brown baby with a BNP member. :grin:

HoreTore

02-28-2011, 22:11

Should a southern KKK-member who owns a cotton farm be allowed to adopt a score of healthy and strong western african children?

Rhyfelwyr

02-28-2011, 22:13

Indeed, it would be like placing a brown baby with a BNP member. :grin:

That won't be happening, since BNP members are already banned from holding a number of public positions never mind being allowed to adopt.

The hypocrisy of the anti-fascist left makes me sick, the only BNP supporters I know are as I've said old women and young people like myself that can't get a job. Yet they are villified by some liberal left rich boys and have basic freedoms taken away for them, all, incredibly, in the name of freedom.

I will not defend the BNP as a party (beyond the ridiculous excesses to which some people take their criticisms), but I will defend their ordinary supporter.

ajaxfetish

02-28-2011, 22:21

Should a southern KKK-member who owns a cotton farm be allowed to adopt a score of healthy and strong western african children?

Or perhaps more accurately, should a southern KKK-member who owns a cotton farm be allowed to adopt a score of infants who may or may not grow up to become healthy and strong western african children?

Ajax

HoreTore

02-28-2011, 22:28

Or perhaps more accurately, should a southern KKK-member who owns a cotton farm be allowed to adopt a score of infants who may or may not grow up to become healthy and strong western african children?

Ajax

A beautiful way to combat rising wages!

Strike For The South

02-28-2011, 22:30

Should a southern KKK-member who owns a cotton farm be allowed to adopt a score of healthy and strong western african children?

Sometimes your posts are stupid ~:)

Beskar

02-28-2011, 22:50

Complete nonsense, the BNP are very different from the NSDAP. For a start they have a Sikh member, plus they have said themselves they have no problem with productive minorities in the UK. They are not even national socialists, their economic policy is quite a bottom-up community-based idealistic notion by the name of 'distributism'... if you are wondering why I know this crap, its not because I am fascinated with the BNP, the far-right in Britain just takes much of its inspiration from elements of Ulster/Scottish loyalist circles, they came up with it back in the 70's..

German side in the 1936 Summer Olympics had a Jewish athlete.

I could continue, bringing up several supporting evidence demonstrating discrimination against minorities, homosexuals and women, in quotes (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-552692/Sacked-The-BNP-candidate-said-women-like-gongs--need-struck-regularly.html), manifesto (http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100424012449AApvZ8d)'s and court cases (http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/news/2009/october/commission-forces-bnp-to-change-its-constitution-and-membership-criteria-after-legal-case-victory/), but I presume that endeavor would simply be fruitless.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 00:01

Oh gawd.

Thank you thank you thank, Beskar, for informing me that the dorks have made a manifesto. I just downloaded it and I've read the first 30 pages, and so far it's comic GOLD!!

Utter loonies! I'm absolutely speechless! I honestly don't even know where to begin ridiculing this utter piece of crap! I always knew they were idiots, but MY GAWD!! This is far, FAR beyond my wildest imaginiation!!

Anyone even thinking of voting for this inbred bunch of dolts should be sent back to the third grade to retake that school year. It's obvious that they have the mental capability of an 8-year old. And not a bright one.

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 00:04

German side in the 1936 Summer Olympics had a Jewish athlete.

I could continue, bringing up several supporting evidence demonstrating discrimination against minorities, homosexuals and women, in quotes (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-552692/Sacked-The-BNP-candidate-said-women-like-gongs--need-struck-regularly.html), manifesto (http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100424012449AApvZ8d)'s and court cases (http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/news/2009/october/commission-forces-bnp-to-change-its-constitution-and-membership-criteria-after-legal-case-victory/), but I presume that endeavor would simply be fruitless.

The endeavour would not be fruitless, since I know there are a lot of bad elements within the BNP right now. But you have to realise the difference between the parties voting base and the party itself.

I just think their voter base are not that bad, from what I have seen anyway, and I think they are unfairly demonised, when they are usually just ordinary working-class people looking to make an anti-establishment vote.

If the BNP do get more support, they will be forced to become more moderate to appeal to their support base. They have already disassociated from the more extreme elements eg Combat 18. So maybe in the future they will be less bad.

At the end of the day they do have an economic policy that could just as easily come from the old left, if they drop the overt racism they wouldn't be that bad.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 00:16

A few points among many laughs:

-"protecting british pubs" was the first real laugh. Seriously, I had to put my iPad down as I couldn't hold it while laughing so hard.
-their economic policies can be summed up in one phrase: "destroy all creativity and innovation". They want a 19/20th century economy in a 21th century world.
-page 45 provides proof of complete math fail. "Lowest common denominator" refers to a number higher than or equal to the numbers you already have, you utter idiots! Gawd! A primary school child knows this!!

Beskar

03-01-2011, 00:20

But you have to realise the difference between the parties voting base and the party itself.

I just think their voter base are not that bad, from what I have seen anyway, and I think they are unfairly demonised, when they are usually just ordinary working-class people looking to make an anti-establishment vote.

I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoLaP-HjKFQ

That is their "Youth Propaganda". Seriously, voting for them is not a credible choice, no matter what they put on paper, it isn't worth the ink it is written with. Each of the BNP high-ranking officials have a criminal record as long as my arm, mainly associated with assault, thuggery and robbery.

While there is issues with the current political system which breeds an anti-establishment mood, placing your vote on the BNP is simply slapping yourself in the face.

Sure, you can separate the "voter" with the "party", but end of the day, they are endorsing a party with those views, and there is responsibility tied to that. There are far more credible choices such as UKIP which is 'right-wing'.

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 00:20

-their economic policies can be summed up in one phrase: "destroy all creativity and innovation". They want a 19/20th century economy in a 21th century world.

Yeah kind of like those socialists that are still obsessed with international class struggle. :wink:

Hint - there's a reason why the BNP are most successful amongst the segments of the population that used to identify most closely with old, socialist Labour...

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 00:23

Yeah kind of like those socialists that are still obsessed with international class struggle. :wink:

Hint - there's a reason why the BNP are most successful amongst the segments of the population that used to identify most closely with old, socialist Labour...

They are almost as dumb as the BNP.

Seriously, stopping shops to relocate to locations more suitable to their business? Are they all snorting amphetamine from buckets?? This ranks among the dumbest economic policies I have ever encountered.

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 00:23

Sure, you can separate the "voter" with the "party", but end of the day, they are endorsing a party with those views, and there is responsibility tied to that. There are far more credible choices such as UKIP which is 'right-wing'.

UKIP are more right-wing in the free-market sense. The BNP are the clostest thing Britain has to a socialist party.

As a certain Frenchman pointed out in a recent thread, the rise of the far-right has much to do with the fact that the left has lost its credibility as the main source of opposition to rampant capitalism.

NOTE: I'm playing the devil's advocate a bit here, I am not actually going to vote BNP while they have many silly and overtly racist policies.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 00:30

Music shall be encouraged in schools, from the age of 5 to 14. In particular, folk songs should be revived and especially those that embodyour nation's history.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 00:47

These tardos are the kind of people who can wake up one day and say to themselves "plowing the fields with horses is an integral part of british history - lets ban tractors from agriculture!"

Which can be a thought sane men have too, but they come to their senses two seconds later and realize that its a bunch of bull. The BNP make it their policy. You have to be a special kind of deranged to manage that.

Louis VI the Fat

03-01-2011, 00:57

I want to adopt a cotton-pickin' ginger BNP homo.

I'll call him Harry. We'll have so much fun together!

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 01:19

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 01:59

I don't find anything unusual about the folk songs thing, from what I've seen that's what we do already, here in Scotland at least. It makes sense you learn about your own country's culture/history, don't they do that in Norway?

There's little a ten year old enjoys more than singing old, out of fashion songs with lyrics that are completely alien to him and has zero relevance to the life he lives.

Oh, and did I mention that everybody on earth thinks those songs are utter crap? Kids will sing Waka, Waka, not some boring old song they can't dance too. And no, I'm not counting folk dancing as dancing. Thinking you can change that borders on insanity.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

03-01-2011, 07:48

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 16:14

There's little a ten year old enjoys more than singing old, out of fashion songs with lyrics that are completely alien to him and has zero relevance to the life he lives.

Oh, and did I mention that everybody on earth thinks those songs are utter crap? Kids will sing Waka, Waka, not some boring old song they can't dance too. And no, I'm not counting folk dancing as dancing. Thinking you can change that borders on insanity.

I hate Scottish (Highland) folk music with a passion, I scived off every PE class when we did ceilidh dancing. I'm listening to modern Romanian dance music (Inna!) as I write this...

But I can still see why I was taught about Robert Burns etc at school, because it is part of my history, makes sense that you learn about the country you live in first.

I think you are just trying to find problems with the BNP and a lot of these suggestions you are mocking are pretty standard for the mainstream parties and are already in practice anyway.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 16:31

This has just been a couple of examples of the epic laughs I had while reading that piece of crap last night.

Listing all of the retardedness in that document would take much more time than I care to spend on the idiots.

But I have to say, my absolute favourite was their fenomenal math fail. Especially since they want increased focus on maths. I lolled all the way to the bank when I spotted that remarkable gem! I mean, come on, I have more intelligence in my breadbox than you can find in the entire BNP party and voter mass. And I don't even have a breadbox.

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 16:39

Whatever, I could do the same thing with the Labour/Tory/LidDem manifestos if I wanted.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 16:43

Whatever, I could do the same thing with the Labour/Tory/LidDem manifestos if I wanted.

A challenge to thee then:

Do it!

I'm especially interested in you finding evidence that the person who wrote those manifestos doesn't understand primary school level maths while bitching about the current state of maths education.

ajaxfetish

03-01-2011, 17:20

But I have to say, my absolute favourite was their fenomenal math fail. Especially since they want increased focus on maths. I lolled all the way to the bank when I spotted that remarkable gem! I mean, come on, I have more intelligence in my breadbox than you can find in the entire BNP party and voter mass. And I don't even have a breadbox.

Is this the 'epic math fail' you're referring to?:

Television should strive to depict improved standards of conduct rather than reducing
much within its remit to the lowest common denominator

You may not be aware of this, but the phrase 'lowest common denominator' has developed an additional meaning in English, independent of its mathematical sense.

The Free Dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lowest+common+denominator) glosses it as

a. The most basic, least sophisticated level of taste, sensibility, or opinion among a group of people.
b. The group having such taste, sensibility, or opinion:

The OED gives as one sense of 'denominator':

(b) fig. something common to or characteristic of a number of things, people, etc.; also attrib.; so least or lowest common denominator, the lowest possible common denominator; also attrib. and fig.

And dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lowest+common+denominator) includes a note from the American Heritage Dictionary's New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy

Note : The term lowest common denominator is often used to indicate a lowering of quality resulting from a desire to find common ground for many people: “This fall's TV programming finds the lowest common denominator of taste.”

It's a quite standard use of the phrase and has nothing to do with math. If you find it amusing, your amusement is at the expense of standard English usage rather than the BNP.

Ajax

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 17:32

Well at least that's cleared up. Just because the BNP have bad policies doesn't mean you need to go out your way to find problems with everything they do.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 17:33

It is absolute fail usage whichever way you see it. Hilarious when coupled with bitching about how maths education these days are too focused on the struggling students.

Perhaps with even more focus on bringing the struggling students up, we wouldn't have a ton of people running around saying the exact opposite of what they mean.

The Oxford Dictionary(I assume that's what OED is) doesn't support your argument though. In fact it supports the opposite(unsurprisingly), as the lowest common ground between someone cannot be less than the best, as you can't go around cutting people in half, now can you?

ajaxfetish

03-01-2011, 17:37

For more on 'lowest common denominator', here are the first ten quotes to come up on the Corpus of Contemporary American for 'lowest common denominator'.

Obamacare, aka socialized medicine, has come to America. The effect will be to reduce us to the lowest common denominator. We'll all be the same.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, and I do agree that the road - the path to increasing our audience and serving our audience is not lowest common denominator, not to sort of attract younger programming by trying to do things that we think younger people will like, but rather to continue to do the great quality storytelling that we do.

And he wrote for almost the lowest common denominator with the idea that people were going to come because they wanted to see blood and guts and, you know, sex and stuff on stage.

We can say in theory that everyone will learn the same competency, but the problem with these sorts of competencies is they often turn out to be lowest common denominator competencies.

Put it back into the government, and that's us, that means you're going to the lowest common denominator. It doesn't matter which state it is, you're going to go to the lowest common denominator -- which means if California is suffering, the rest of the country pays for it.

It allows for association health plans, which means that, all the mandates, like for mammograms and making sure that women and people who need coverage in this country, all the mandates would be gone and you'd go to the lowest common denominator.

We will reach our lowest common denominator, and the work will begin.

Designing a seat to be not uncomfortable for the largest number of people reduces the ergonomic contours to the lowest common denominator. As a result, no-brainers like an adjustable lumbar support turn out to be a genuine pain for some because of the wide range not just in height but in lower-back curvature.

Sure, it was a politically foolish move, but what I'm saying is when you're actually pandering to the politics of fear itself, you know, I think that's going to the lowest common denominator.

So, he's just gon na muddle through the remainder of his year on with catering to the - the lowest common denominator kid because that's about the only thing that he can do, right, Nick? But you're not disappointed in yourself, right?

Those are from the Denver News, NPR, Glenn Beck, ABC's 'This Week' and 20/20, Esquire, and Popular Science. Not a one of them has to do with the math meaning. I don't have time at the moment to check all 181 instances of the phrase in the corpus, but a brief glance isn't turning up any math-related use at all. For most modern English speakers, you're going to hear this phrase used as it is in the BNP manifesto much more often than you're likely to hear its use as a mathematical term.

Ajax

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 17:41

.....And Glenn Beck not being smart enough to complete primary school maths is supposed to surprise me how....?

Tellos Athenaios

03-01-2011, 17:52

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 18:04

Eh, in it's Math sense lcd is never really very interesting anyway. The one which matters is greatest common divisor (gcd()), primarily because others can easily be written in terms of that. (lcm(a,b) = a*b/gcd(a,b).)

Nonsense, kids will learn about lcd years before they start factorization, as it is required to add and subtract fractions with different denominators.

ajaxfetish

03-01-2011, 18:04

.....And Glenn Beck not being smart enough to complete primary school maths is supposed to surprise me how....?

2 things:

First of all, only 1 of the 10 is from Glenn Beck, and it's a coincidence of recency that he was among the first 10. Only 2 instances of the phrase in 181 are from Beck, both in that same quote. Other sources using the phrase in exactly the same way include respected news sources, popular magazines, and academic journals. So I don't see how Glenn Beck's education has any relevance whatsoever.

Second, it's got nothing to do with math education anyway. This meaning is no longer related to math, and it could just as easily be used this way by a math professor as by a math illiterate.

Ajax

edit: and really, should I be upset at people using the word 'semantic' in phrases like 'it's all just semantic anyway'? Do they mean, 'oh, that's just the meaning of the words we're using'? No, they mean whatever technical mistakes they made in their phrasing are trivial, and don't undermine their point. Tons of terms have a technical meaning in the jargon of a given field, as well as a broader meaning in use by the populace as a whole. If you can't accept that and insist that everyone use your jargon terms the way they would if they were a math teacher, well, that sounds like a personal problem to me.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 18:10

There is some merit in the claim that maths education is declining. It is, however, bot because we fail to elevate the strongest, it is because we fail to learn the struggling ones simple concepts like this, as is evidenced by a gang of dolts now saying the exat opposite of what they're trying to say.

It is wrong, both in a "speaking sense" and in a mathematical sense. You cannot chop people into pieces, and as such the lowest common denominator MUST mean to elevate lowest to the level of the highest or above, it simply cannot have any other meaning, unless you are dumber than the contents of my non-existant breadbox.

ajaxfetish

03-01-2011, 18:18

it simply cannot have any other meaning

Do you speak a human language? Claims like this make me wonder . . .

Ajax

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 18:20

Do you speak a human language? Claims like this make me wonder . . .

Ajax

Its like stating that "North" can mean "South".

Tellos Athenaios

03-01-2011, 18:27

Nonsense, kids will learn about lcd years before they start factorization, as it is required to add and subtract fractions with different denominators.

Hmm, I got along fine using simply: a/b + c/d = da/bd + cb/db = (da + cb ) / db. Much easier to compute because both lcm and gcd require division. Anyway lcd requires lcm which in turn requires gcd. (Well you could say gcd requires lcm, except for a few edge cases such as (0,1) this identity does not hold: lcm(0,1)= ??, but gcd(0,1) = 1.)

ajaxfetish

03-01-2011, 18:29

denominator: shared or common characteristic
common: redundant with the above meaning of 'denominator', but oh well
lowest: lowest in elevation, and figuratively, lowest in quality or moral value: basest

Put them all together and what do you get? The Most base and unsophisticated qualities common to the populace. That meant to appeal to the masses rather than the discerning.

It makes perfect sense if you start with the right senses, and you've accepted that definition of 'denominator' from the OED above, which applies both to its mathematical sense and to its nonmathematical sense. Furthermore, since when was making logical sense a requirement for a human language? Idioms by their very nature defy logical interpretation, which is why they must be learned. How does 'kick the bucket' make sense? How does 'I could care less' make sense? They don't need to. This is language, not math. 'North' can mean 'South' if we define it that way. There's nothing about the string of sounds [nɔɹθ] or [saʊθ] that links them intrinsically to points on the compass. It is only by convention that these have their meaning, and similarly by convention, 'lowest common denominator' has the meaning given above. You don't have to like it. But calling it wrong or questioning the intelligence of those who use it is just petulant.

Ajax

Strike For The South

03-01-2011, 18:29

Horetore

Learn english better

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 18:52

Hmm, I got along fine using simply: a/b + c/d = da/bd + cb/db = (da + cb ) / db. Much easier to compute because both lcm and gcd require division. Anyway lcd requires lcm which in turn requires gcd. (Well you could say gcd requires lcm, except for a few edge cases such as (0,1) this identity does not hold: lcm(0,1)= ??, but gcd(0,1) = 1.)

Kids learn fractions way before they learn algebra too.

A kid solving 2/6 + 3/9 will set up lines of multiples for each denominator like this:
6 12 18 24 30
9 18 27

...and he will learn that the name for "18" is this problem is "lowest common denominator", and he will also know that this number is highere than both the numbers he started out with, and thus will understand that using lcd a a standard in ither aspects of life means raising poor quality to a standqrd quality that is higher, usually much higher.

Since the BNP failed to complete primary school mathematics, they do not understand this, something it seems that they share with mr. Ajaxfetish.

SFTS,
I believe the phrase you're looking for is "lrn2english".

Tellos Athenaios

03-01-2011, 19:09

Kids learn fractions way before they learn algebra too.

A kid solving 2/6 + 3/9 will set up lines of multiples for each denominator like this:
6 12 18 24 30
9 18 27

Multiplication tables, you mean? That would explain; I never needed to learn those: first I went to a montessori primary school so I learned long division and then when I moved I was told at my new primary school I could continue using long division when I was horrified at the amount of work it would require to solve even simple problems using that multiplication table monstrosity.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 19:19

Multiplication tables, you mean? That would explain; I never needed to learn those: first I went to a montessori primary school so I learned long division and then when I moved I was told at my new primary school I could continue using long division when I was horrified at the amount of work it would require to solve even simple problems using that multiplication table monstrosity.

Multiplication tables(or whatever) is the long method, but kids learn it mostly as a teaser, just like they are given calculus problems before they learn about X. Its intention is to stimulate logical thinking. Ie. "if you take this and that, you must get this".

This is introduced when kids are struggling to come to grips with what multiplication is all about, and so you can't teach them an algorithm that requires a knowledge of multiplicationm because they just don't have that knowledge yet. To understand problems involving X, you need to understand how you flip the problem around, but you can of course introduce such problems long before they learn of the relationship between multiplication and divison, and they will solve it with the tools they have available, and that will usually involve writing down a bunch of numbers and tweaking them until they fit.

In conclusion, the point of making those tables is not to solve the problem(because the answer is irrelevant ~;) ), but rather to fiddle around and spot connections between numbers and a starting level.

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 19:30

For the record, I never used those tables myself... For the smaller numbers I just did the maths in my head, for the bigger numbers I multiplied both numbers and then shrunk the fraction after the operation, because dividing stuff was über-awesome.....

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 19:39

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 19:54

HoreTore you are just being incredibly petty to try to prove some sort of crappy point. If you actually want to make some notable comments on the BNP's policies go ahead, until then please stop being so anal.

When wanting to set the economy bsck to the 19th century and completely destroy all economic innovation and creativity wasn't enough for you, I honestly don't see much point in debating this with you.

Rhyfelwyr

03-01-2011, 21:51

When wanting to set the economy bsck to the 19th century and completely destroy all economic innovation and creativity wasn't enough for you, I honestly don't see much point in debating this with you.

Most of your 'criticism' is on this last page and seems to revolve around taking issue with some quirk of the English language.

ajaxfetish

03-01-2011, 21:59

...and he will learn that the name for "18" is this problem is "lowest common denominator", and he will also know that this number is highere than both the numbers he started out with, and thus will understand that using lcd a a standard in ither aspects of life means raising poor quality to a standqrd quality that is higher, usually much higher.

Since the BNP failed to complete primary school mathematics, they do not understand this, something it seems that they share with mr. Ajaxfetish.

You continue to act as if this were a mathematical issue, when it's clearly not. The manifesto used 'lowest common denominator' in a sentence, not an equation. The topic was television programming, not mathematics. Even if it were a math issue, I find it ironic that you're taking issue with treating the LCD as something small instead of large. It's a denominator after all. Sure, 18 is larger than either 9 or 6. But 1/18 is smaller than either 1/9 or 1/6. Clearly using LCD as a standard in other aspects of life means lowering high quality to a standard quality that is lower, usually much lower.

So it's arguable either way whether the use is mathematically appropriate. Regardless of the outcome of that argument, it is linguistically appropriate. Don't make an epic linguistic fail while attempting a cheap shot at the BNP. There has to be a more honest way to ridicule them.

Ajax

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 23:17

Most of your 'criticism' is on this last page and seems to revolve around taking issue with some quirk of the English language.

It's my personal pet peeve, yes... I see red whenever I see that term used improperly ~;)

Ajaxfetish: of course there are far, far worse issues in that manifesto. I haven't touched on issues like how they want to nullify the bill of rights and declaration of human rights, how they want to deport people for disagreeing with their policies, etc etc. But that the BNP is a fascist, authoritarian party should be clear as day to everyone, I see no real reason to state the obvious for the 764425458288278th time.

But what I see as even worse than their fascism is their complete incompetence when it comes to just about everything, and economic realities in particular, a trait they share with most, if not all, of their european populist friends. They're simply incapable of tying their own shoelaces, and they want to govern a country? Hah!

Also, denominwtor isn't restricted to fractions, and when you increase the denominator, you must also increase the numeral proportionally ~;)

Husar

03-01-2011, 23:24

.....And Glenn Beck not being smart enough to complete primary school maths is supposed to surprise me how....?

You inability/unwillingness to admit that you are wrong about the use of the term in the English language isn't surprising either.
It has been used here in the Backroom countless of times and not once have I seen you complain but now that you saw the BNP use it you make a mountain out of a molehill just so you don't have to admit that your point wasn't very good in the first place...

HoreTore

03-01-2011, 23:36

Nonsense! I spotted it a short while ago, I believe it was PJ that used it, and I most certainly objected to it at that time too!

You need to increase your lurking skillz, my dear

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

03-01-2011, 23:50

I hate Scottish (Highland) folk music with a passion, I scived off every PE class when we did ceilidh dancing.

Don't knock it Rhy, it's a useful skill, the dancing and a pint of cider will, reputedly, get you laid nine times out of ten.

Rhyfelwyr

03-02-2011, 01:34

Nonsense! I spotted it a short while ago, I believe it was PJ that used it, and I most certainly objected to it at that time too!

You need to increase your lurking skillz, my dear

You really don't give up do you...

Don't knock it Rhy, it's a useful skill, the dancing and a pint of cider will, reputedly, get you laid nine times out of ten.

Despite my recent woes with women, my aim is not simply to get laid!

Louis VI the Fat

03-02-2011, 03:45

Etymological fallacy:

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy) that holds, erroneously, that the historical meaning of a word or phrase is necessarily similar to its actual present-day meaning. This is a linguistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics) misconception, mistakenly identifying a word's current semantic field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_field) with its etymology.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy#cite_note-0) An argument only constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology, thus distinguishing an alleged "true" (etymological) meaning from the workaday use.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy#cite_note-Sihler-1)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy#cite_note-Sihler-1)
A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

It had never occurred to me that 'lowest common denominater' is a bit of a misnomer. Nevertheless, expressions mean what they do, not what they should.

Compare the sentence 'mathematical meaning is irrelephant to common usage of an expression'. The etymology, the origin of the word is 'to irr an elephant'. However, the word irrelephant does not mean anymore one is running around irring elephants. The word has evolved to mean 'nothing really matters in the absense of elephants'. For who can live without these majestic beasts? Everything loses its relephants in the painful void of their absense. :book:

Crazed Rabbit

03-02-2011, 06:49

It is not about saying "Homosexuality is good", it is about accepting the choice of the individual, and being there for them, even through difficult times.

Actually it seems as though it is exactly about the parents having to say "homosexuality is good";

"We are prepared to love and accept any child. All we were not willing to do was to tell a small child that the practice of homosexuality was a good thing."

Also, Horetore being hoist by his own petard has been amusing.

CR

ajaxfetish

03-02-2011, 06:55

HoreTore

03-02-2011, 12:01

French whining

Yes, Louis, that would be spot on if it wasn't completely wrong. Lcd isn't a historical term, it is an everyday term used today, and I am now referring to the mathematical definition, not the nonsense one. The problem is that a term still in everyday use has been given the exact opposite meaning by some random idiots, and we have now ended up with a term that can mean two opposite things, thus making it rather useless. Calling north "south" and south "north" is all well and fine, provided that you switch both terms, having a situation where North can mean both ways makes life rather painful when it comes to navigation, wouldn't you agree?

Its the same thing here. If my students goes around thinking that lcd means something small, it will prove a major stumbling block for their capability to learn fractions, as a big part of learning maths is learning the terms and language used in maths.

Bah, I'll leave you all to "snackify your beverages", like they showed on the daiy show a few weeks ago...

Louis VI the Fat

03-02-2011, 15:52

Norwegian whiningHey man, you don't need to talk to me. You need to speak with Rabbit, who insulted you. He said you are hoisted by your own petard. This expression is of French origin. By your own admission, expressions mean their literal, etymological meaning, therefore Rabbit says you just farted.

HoreTore

03-02-2011, 16:00

Shows what happens when you drink three bottles of red wine for lunch.

Nono Louis, I don't argue that phrases has to be kept to their original meaning, language is flowing and changing. My argument is that one phrase shouldn't mean two completely opposite things at the same time. Ie. "north" should mean just "that way", not "that way" plus the opposite direction. Hae you been svimming in the mediterranian in Northern France lately?

And yes, I did just fart.... I've been doing it all day long, I'm on vacation, so my day has consisted on lying on the couch watching the world cup, drinking coffee and farting. A glorious time if I may say so.

Furunculus

03-02-2011, 18:02

In the same vein, slippery slope arguments about government removing children from 'homophobic parents', will not be happening because it is completely unreasonable.

Especially considering the socio-economical burden it would place on society, ensuring legal challenges and court battles, and an overhaul of the entire legal system and framework on the right of parents and bearing children.

that is not reassuring, as the notion that equality law would force the closure of catholic adoption agencies, was equally rubished by supporters as unreasonable.

that latter reason is likewise not a good supporting argument for why judicial tyranny will choose to interpret legislation as it pleases.

frankly, given the number of children that are left to rot in Britain's social care system the would would in fact be a better place of catholic adoption agencies were able to continue doing their good work.

then again i am a conservative, with an inbuilt suspicion of change for the sake of being modern...........

rory_20_uk

03-02-2011, 20:06

Husar

03-02-2011, 20:18

Correct me if I'm wrong but the more colloquial use of Lowest Common Denominator(lcd) isn't the polar opposite of it's mathematical meaning, I think the meaning isn't really changed, since I've usually seen it as some form of complaint, I understood it in the way that "going for the lowest common denominator" is usually seen as a bad thing because people are going for the lowest one, there are also higher common denominators which, in the opinion of the complaining party, people should strive to achieve instead of going for the lowest common denominator. The lowest common denominator is only relatively low in comparison to other common denominators which are higher. That blends in perfectly with the mathematical meaning, except in mathematics the lcd is a good thing because you want simplicity, people who use it as a political terms think it's a bad thing because it refers to simplicity and as such to something of less value, something that does not advance a people/civilization/village. As such the lcd is the same in both cases, but the actual interpretation of whether it is a good thing in the given situation is a different one.
Just like having a lot of water is a good thing when it's in a bottle in the desert and a bad thing when it's inside your lungs.

edit: It's also possible that I misunderstood what a denominator is, I only know maths in German...
I was thinking of the smallest common multiple, which it really us, but the denominator is what you have below a line with another number above, right?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

03-02-2011, 22:51

Ideally, every person who adopts should be perfect, a paradim of the values that society values.

But we live in the real world. Although they are bigots (and I'm sure would be dead against racist bigots - and probably not see the similarity) they are better than the likely alternative. No, they are not perfect, require more monitoring that others and wouldn't be at the top of the list of candidates, but seeing as we've a massive shortage of those willing to adopt, they're good enough.

~:smoking:

I'm not sure they're even bigots. It's difficult to tell, because they are talking to the Telegraph and the Telegraph is spinning this as "infingement of nice West-Indian couple" but it seems to me they are dissagreeing with the lifestyle, not promoting hate of individuals. I think that presented with a homosexual child they would support them emotionally, but they would feel unable to endorse an actively homosexual lifestyle.

Honestly though, how many couples in their early sixties in England do actively endorse homosexuality? I have a nasty supsician that the real difference here is that these people are willing to be honest about it. On balance I think this particular couple have a great deal to offer a child in terms of teaching them about convictions and compasion for people whose lifestyle you don't agree with. Their old-fasioned views on sex don't really detract from that enough to bar them from being foster parents.

So, in conclusion, I think this case has been a waste of time from which no one has benefitted - but a couple in their latter years now feel alienated from our society and some children will not have foster parents.

Furunculus

03-03-2011, 00:32

So, in conclusion, I think this case has been a waste of time from which no one has benefitted - but a couple in their latter years now feel alienated from our society and some children will not have foster parents.
very much agreed.

HoreTore

03-03-2011, 00:36

Kinda like the story of every gay couple wanting to adopt, eh?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

03-03-2011, 01:14

Kinda like the story of every gay couple wanting to adopt, eh?

Except..... they can. They can probably even adopt if they express the view that all Christians are bigots.

Also, I would like to know if Muslim foster parents are screened so intrusively.

Beskar

03-03-2011, 03:36

then again i am a conservative, with an inbuilt suspicion of change for the sake of being modern...........

You didn't say that when you bought your new computer and your 3D vision googles. :tongue:

ajaxfetish

03-03-2011, 04:11

My argument is that one phrase shouldn't mean two completely opposite things at the same time.
Sanction
Cleave
Oversight
Fast
Literally
Citation
Impregnable
Inflammable
Lease
Rent
Left
Ravel
Table
Bolt
With
Against
Awesome
Off
Out
Let
Below Par
Unshelled
Apparent
Peer
Dust
Fix
etc., etc., etc.

I don't know about Norwegian, but English is quite happy to have words or phrases that mean completely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym) opposite (http://www.usingenglish.com/glossary/contranym.html) things (http://www.fun-with-words.com/nym_autoantonyms.html) at (http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/List_of_self-contradicting_words_in_English) the (http://www.annies-annex.com/autoantonym.htm) same (http://grammar.about.com/od/il/g/Januswordterm.htm) time (http://people.csail.mit.edu/seth/misc/selfantonyms.html).

Fragony

03-03-2011, 04:25

That won't be happening, since BNP members are already banned from holding a number of public positions never mind being allowed to adopt.

The hypocrisy of the anti-fascist left makes me sick, the only BNP supporters I know are as I've said old women and young people like myself that can't get a job. Yet they are villified by some liberal left rich boys and have basic freedoms taken away for them, all, incredibly, in the name of freedom.

I will not defend the BNP as a party (beyond the ridiculous excesses to which some people take their criticisms), but I will defend their ordinary supporter.

They have a history, Party's like BNP and FN will never be rid of some influences. You need something new. Not voting for him but I like it how Wilders is doing. If you are despised by both the antifa and the skinheads you must be doing something right. Our German neighbours are getting something similar, going to be interesting how it will do.

HoreTore

03-03-2011, 08:33

Except..... they can. They can probably even adopt if they express the view that all Christians are bigots.

Also, I would like to know if Muslim foster parents are screened so intrusively.

And you support their right to adopt?

HoreTore

03-03-2011, 08:34

They have a history, Party's like BNP and FN will never be rid of some influences. You need something new. Not voting for him but I like it how Wilders is doing. If you are despised by both the antifa and the skinheads you must be doing something right. Our German neighbours are getting something similar, going to be interesting how it will do.

You mean like every major party, liberal, conserative or socialist, is?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

03-03-2011, 09:31

And you support their right to adopt?

It's legal.

My issue here is that these people don't actually seem to have infringed anybody's rights. What these judges have done is decide that expressing the opinion that homosexual practices are immoral disqualifies one from civil society, regardless of how one actual treats others.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8355786/Our-Christianity-is-our-lifestyle-we-cant-take-it-on-and-off.html

Question: Why were they even asked, "Would you tell a child it was OK to be homosexual?”

Fragony

03-03-2011, 09:50

You mean like every major party, liberal, conserative or socialist, is?

Sure but the PVV is unapoligitely anti-islam (not anti muslim), other party's aren't. You would expect the skins to find a loving home there but they are not welcome

Louis VI the Fat

03-03-2011, 10:14

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8355786/Our-Christianity-is-our-lifestyle-we-cant-take-it-on-and-off.html

Question: Why were they even asked, "Would you tell a child it was OK to be homosexual?”Maybe because they have joined a cult which preaches inequality. These people must not be allowed to try to 'correct' the orientation of children put in their care.

Would you be okay with handing over Jewish children to Christian fundamentalists, with the intent of correcting their sinful ways and raising them into Christians? This was an actual dilemma across much of Europe seventy years ago.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

03-03-2011, 10:59

Maybe because they have joined a cult which preaches inequality. These people must not be allowed to try to 'correct' the orientation of children put in their care.

Whether or not Pentacostalism is a Cult is a seperate issue - I say gain, where is the evidence for this?

They have said they do not agree with a homosexual lifestlye, but they would only be fostering young children for a few weeks and they do not appear to be "homophobes" or to "hate" homosexuals.

The position they adopt appears to be a moral one, not an affective one.