Ionians in Bactria?

[lolpah]

Greetings to everyone, I am a long time lurker here, and though I made this account in the summer, I just have began to use it.
So, my question is that did the Persian Empire exile Ionian Greeks to Bactria after their unsuccesful revolt? In the description of the early bactrian bodyguard, it says

"It was the most daring of Hellenes who traversed more than 5000 miles from mainland Hellas to join their Ionian brethren (former Persian exiles) in colonizing Baktria..."

and I also remember reading something about Ionian exiles from wikipedia, though it had [citation needed].

So does anybody know, were substantial amounts of Ionians exiled to Bactria as a punishment after the revolt, and what are the sources on that?

[WinsingtonIII]

I do know that during the Ionian revolt, the two mainland Greek city-states that supported the revolt were Athens and Eretria, and in retaliation the Persians later attacked and destroyed Eretria, exiling its inhabitants to someplace in the Persian Empire. They planned on doing the same to Athens, but the Athenians won at the Battle of Marathon. So, it is certainly possible that the Eretrian exiles ended up in Baktria, although I'm unsure on exactly where they were actually sent.

Unfortunately, I don't have a good source on this either, so maybe someone else could be more clear on this.

EDIT: I know it's not a good source, but according to wikipedia, the Eretrians were exiled to Mesopotamia by the Persians, not to Baktria. I'm going to keep looking.

Currently I'm looking around on this site: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/ which is a pretty good resource for searching through ancient and modern texts quickly.

[Hax]

Yep, I'm pretty sure they did move a large number of Ionians to Baktria and the surrounding area. This is also reflected in the Chinese name for the place, "Da-Yuan", (Great Ionia).

[Ca Putt]

ooo, that's interesting.

I've heard that aswell tho I wasn't sure if it was true(thus they were just sent to mesopotamia) because beeing sent to baktria would've meant to be sent to the furthest reach of the empire which may also have doubled as threat much like Kolchis was viewed by theclassical greeks.
anyway seems I've been wrong

[WinsingtonIII]

Yep, I'm pretty sure they did move a large number of Ionians to Baktria and the surrounding area. This is also reflected in the Chinese name for the place, "Da-Yuan", (Great Ionia).

Just out of curiosity, do you have a source on this event? I'd like to read more about it and I'm having trouble finding information on it.

[Atraphoenix]

But Aristagoras was unequal to the occasion; and the struggle for independence, which had promised so fair, was soon put down. Despite a naval victory gained by the Greeks over the Phoenician fleet off Cyprus, that island was recovered by the Persians within a year. Despite a courage and a perseverance worthy of a better fate, the Carians were soon afterwards forced to succumb. The reduction of the Hellespontine Greeks and of the AEolians followed. The toils now closed around Ionia, and her cities began to be attacked one by one; whereupon the incapable Aristagoras, deserting the falling cause, betook himself to Europe, where a just Nemesis pursued him: he died by a Thracian sword. After this the climax soon arrived. Persia concentrated her strength upon Miletus, the cradle of the revolt, and the acknowledged chief of the cities; and though her sister states came gallantly to her aid, and a fleet was collected which made it for a while doubtful which way victory might incline, yet all was of no avail. Laziness and insubordination began and treachery completed the work which all the force of Persia might have failed to accomplish; the combined Ionian fleet was totally defeated in the battle of Lade; and soon after Miletus herself fell. The bulk of her inhabitants were transported into inner Asia and settled upon the Persian Gulf. The whole Ionian coast was ravaged, and the cities punished by the loss of their most beautiful maidens and youths. The islands off the coast were swept of their inhabitants. The cities on the Hellespont and Sea of Marmora were burnt. Miltiades barely escaped from the Chersonese with the loss of his son and his kingdom. The flames of rebellion were everywhere ruthlessly trampled out; and the power of the Great King was once more firmly established over the coasts and islands of the Propontis and the Egean Sea.


THE SEVEN GREAT MONARCHIES
OF THE
ANCIENT EASTERN WORLD;
OR,
THE HISTORY, GEOGRAPHY, AND ANTIQUITIES OF CHALDAEA, ASSYRIA
BABYLON, MEDIA, PERSIA, PARTHIA, AND SASSANIAN,
OR NEW PERSIAN EMPIRE.
BY
GEORGE RAWLINSON, M.A.,



My sources confirms it but it says Inner Asia.

[WinsingtonIII]

My sources confirms it but it says Inner Asia.

That plus the reference to the Persian Gulf would seem to suggest Mesopotamia (or southern Iran) as opposed to Baktria.

[DeathFinger]

Quintus Curtius Rufus tells us about the Branchidai of Milet, who were exiled in Bactria for safety by Xerxes, because they supported the Persians. They are said to have been met by Alexander when he was here, and being killed by vengeance (Life of Alexander (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Curtius/7*.html) VII. V, 28-35). Of interest is the passage when Curtius says that they have kept the uses of their homeland, but spoke the double language and were half-blooded. We cannot be sure if the story of the Branchidai even has something right, but at least it shows that it certainly existed some communauties deep inside Persian empire.



This is also reflected in the Chinese name for the place, "Da-Yuan", (Great Ionia).

This is not a consensus. Here from Tarn, The Greeks in Bactria and India, 1938 (not up-to-date but Tarn keeps to be a pillar in this kind of matter)


Naturally I agree with those who have said that Ta-yuan does not mean 'the great land of the Yavanas'; it is enough that the Ch'ien-han-shu knows of a 'little Yuan', Siao-yuan, in the Tarim basin, which had nothing to do with Greeks3

3=Wylie p. 28, de Groot p. 64 (Sao-wan). The latter (p. 12) says there is no traceable connection between Ta-wan and Sao-wan; all the less likely, therefore, is it that yuan (or wan) should be Yavana


Sure we can wondering what was called Yavana by the Chinese and Hu peoples, but at least we cannot took this name like a proof of Greek presence here.

[lolpah]

Thanks to everybody for answering. So, from what I have read here, there are some sources which confirm it but there is noe nough evidence. Though, it would make sense given the amount of greeks in the Bactrian Kingdom.

[Hax]

My sources confirms it but it says Inner Asia.

Intriguing. "Inner Asia" from a modern perspective would probably correspond to the Tajikistan/Uzbekistan/Afghanistan area, but the mention of the Persian Gulf would remind me of either current-day Basra or perhaps Pars. Still, it would be kinda odd for the Persians to move a people to their homeland.


This is not a consensus. Here from Tarn, The Greeks in Bactria and India, 1938 (not up-to-date but Tarn keeps to be a pillar in this kind of matter)

Aah, interesting. Thank you.

Apparently, I was wrong. My apologies. :bow:

[Vaginacles]

Uh Eastern peoples referred to all greeks as Ionians since it ultimately kame from the Persian word for Ionian. So Ionians in Bactria might just be a linguistic mistranslation.

[DeathFinger]

Yes, the word Yauna/Yawna means "Greek", probably because the first Greeks met by the Persian presented themselves as Ionians. Nevertheless, speaking of exil made by the Persians, there's more chance that they deported Ionians than Greeks of Europe, for obvious reasons ;)

[Atraphoenix]

Yes, the word Yauna/Yawna means "Greek", probably because the first Greeks met by the Persian presented themselves as Ionians. Nevertheless, speaking of exil made by the Persians, there's more chance that they deported Ionians than Greeks of Europe, for obvious reasons ;)

Yuana is used for all Greeks for the factions who are interacted with Persians, for example Turkish.
Interestingly, the word "Saka" or "Scythian" is used nearly for all the steppe people by Greeks.
Misconceptions are everywhere :book:

[Populus Romanus]

Quintus Curtius Rufus tells us about the Branchidai of Milet, who were exiled in Bactria for safety by Xerxes, because they supported the Persians. They are said to have been met by Alexander when he was here, and being killed by vengeance (Life of Alexander (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Curtius/7*.html) VII. V, 28-35). Of interest is the passage when Curtius says that they have kept the uses of their homeland, but spoke the double language and were half-blooded. We cannot be sure if the story of the Branchidai even has something right, but at least it shows that it certainly existed some communauties deep inside Persian empire.




This is not a consensus. Here from Tarn, The Greeks in Bactria and India, 1938 (not up-to-date but Tarn keeps to be a pillar in this kind of matter)



Sure we can wondering what was called Yavana by the Chinese and Hu peoples, but at least we cannot took this name like a proof of Greek presence here.
Alexander killed those Greeks? How horrible!

[Atraphoenix]

AFAIR He gave no mercy Greek Mercenaries on Persian Armies.
War is war...

[vartan]

I never realized until this thread that I have been calling the Greeks by the name of the Ionians. Greeks I call huyn(a). As a side note, the Sarmatians and Saka we call the sarmatner and sakaraukner, respectively.

[CashMunny]

I think Alexander killed all Greeks who 'betrayed' the Macedonians to the Persians. Whether this was really rational, I don't know, because he and his father were just fresh from subjugating Hellas proper. But I think he would have claimed hegemony over all Greeks. One who betrayed his 'Greek Empire' to their ancient enemies the Persians would have been a very evil man in Alexander's eyes.

[vartan]

Why didn't Alexander slaughter all of his brethren, since only 150 years earlier their lands were the springboard from which Persian incursions into Greece took place? Oh...right.

[DeathFinger]

I think Alexander killed all Greeks who 'betrayed' the Macedonians to the Persians. Whether this was really rational, I don't know, because he and his father were just fresh from subjugating Hellas proper. But I think he would have claimed hegemony over all Greeks. One who betrayed his 'Greek Empire' to their ancient enemies the Persians would have been a very evil man in Alexander's eyes.

I don't think so. On the Branchidai matter, it was the Miletan peoples who convinced him to do so, because he hesitated. I honestly don't think that he would have in mind to punish Greeks under Persian side. Remember that nationality is a modern concept, even the "Greek" one was still very limitated at this time.

[CashMunny]

I don't think so. On the Branchidai matter, it was the Miletan peoples who convinced him to do so, because he hesitated. I honestly don't think that he would have in mind to punish Greeks under Persian side. Remember that nationality is a modern concept, even the "Greek" one was still very limitated at this time.

Well, if he wasn't at all inclined to do it, the Miletians couldn't have persuaded him to do it. He had to have been considering it before that, or he would have just rebuffed the Miletian's request.

[DeathFinger]

Why not? He had probably nothing against those guys, especially that what they did didn't concern him like a Makedonian king. But he heard and saw what profit he can make killing them, and what problem can brought him the fact to let them alive. That probably was a political oppotunism, what he personnaly thought about those guys we cannot know.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

Well, Alexandro's proclaimation to the greeks was that he's avenging on their behalf against the persians. Killing the 'traitors of the greeks' seemed like a good political thing for him to do. If the macedonians didn't really care, I'm sure the greek elements in his army would be rubbing their hands together...