Al Sabyn and the two big boys

[fomalhaut]

I understand that Saba is supposed to be a pretty difficult campaign, and besides their unique geographic location and culture i love being the relatively backwater nation acting as a sort of phantom against the two established and powerful empires, Seleukaia and Ptolemaioi.

but for some reason, both of my Saba campaigns, Ptolemy and Seleukia are only at war with me. Never against any one else, not even eachother as they sign peace treaties before i've even built roads for my capital. I would take screens but Steam isn't working for me but i am their only enemy for the last 60 years, and not even forcing diplomacy to make them fight eachother works. I ultimately quit because constantly fighting Agema stacks over and over is a really big chore and really no fun.

I'm totally totally fine, and want, to fight the two big empires with their heavy armor and 'high' cultures using super fast desert warfare tactics against them but not when they both are sending the entire might of their empires against me, through the damn arabian desert... every year!

It's not only a gameplay bug i think but also a total immersion killer, as it makes no sense that two of the biggest eastern empires would have 0 enemies except desert people at the end of the world.

Yes i do have a (weak and near militia level) phalanx of my own but i don't think Saba is made to actually fight the full might of two empires, right? they should be at war with multiple people as they always are whenever i play as anyone else. So is this a bug? what's your guys experience with this cool faction?

[Olaf The Great]

The RTW programmers had the bright idea of having a suicidally antagonistic AI that conspires to destroy YOU the PLAYER and no one else. Border a faction with ONE city with your best army parked RIGHT there and they'll attack with a halfstack of pantodapoi. It's why I can't really play EB1 anymore and am having a hard time waiting for EB2 D=. Thankfull Medieval 2 has moddable diplomacy and if Stainless Steel is of any consideration by the EB team, you can load up several different types of AI before starting the game which are save-game compatible (IE, A warlike AI, a peaceful AI, a warlike but alliance holding AI etc) also the factions seem to declare war on eachother just as much as they do you and there's none of those "Peace treaty with enemy, then both allly against you" shenanigans. What's really required for EB2 is some sort of script that requires factions that signed a peace treaty not to declare war on eachother for say, 10 turns.

So in all RTW diplomacy has...
*Suicidal AI
*Peace Treaties and alliances against you.
*Sudden attacks right after they open trade rights with you
*Allies seem to do worse, enemies seem to do better. (Think if you're playing Casse, how many times do you see Seleucia crumble? If you're playing Hayasdan, how strong is Seleucia?)
*"We have nothing to offer, and must turn you(r gift..) down"


Editl:For example, just now Pontos finally asked for a peace treaty because my three Royal Baktrian armies were destroying its countryside, I accepted. The MOMENT the diplomacy panel went away I was attacked by a small army of theirs.

[vollorix]

I do not remember it really well, since it´s an eternity since i´ve played vanilla last time, but could it be that the AI factions are acting this way, partly(?), because there are no multiple Roman factions, and, perhaps even the SPQR superfaction in the game anymore? Does anyone remember if this aggressive behaivour of the AI primary occured after one used to win the Roman Civil War, or if it was normal for the factons even before? What i remember was, while playing Juli, i used to get peace proposals from Greeks, Carthaginians or others, after the Senate used to give me a mission against those factions, like blockading their port for a turn, and i was at war with them. They allways asked for peace, and were readily paying tribute for accepting it.

Btw: fomalhaut - what difficulty are you playing on? have you tried medium, or even easy? I mean, you are not competing with the AI, but instead are trying to have a nice game, so, the only way i see to prevent that rediculos behaiviour of the AI, allying themselvs against a small desert nation, would be do choose the lowest difficulty level.

On the other hand, it´s quite understandable, when AI, programmed to hate the human player, is taking a break fighting each other when kind of super agressive nation emerges on their both boarders, threatening them at the same time. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - i find it quite logical. Once they´d throw you out off their boarders, they´d gladly sign a peace treate with you, i´m sure. So, perhaps the solution lies in avoiding common boarders with both superpowers at the same time? ;)

[fomalhaut]

Im on M/M since i knew how hard Saba was to play as!

the thing is i haven't had borders with them for a long time. I had Axum long before Ptolemy had anything else except Theron bordering me. I just recently bordered Seleukaia by taking the last Arabian peninsula town for extra income and for solidarity.

I understand 'enemy of my enemy' but it doesn't make sense at all in context. They have NEVER been at war with eachother, or another state, for longer than it took for them to send diplomats to the other side. These guys are bordering so many different cultures that it blows my mind that they aren't at war with everyone.

[Pobs]

Fomalhaut,

the Saba are a tough nation to play without a doubt but you can ease the pressure by crossing over the red sea and grabbing Land in the south. If your enemies insist on staying allied to each other then try taking a Seleucid city and gifting it to the egyptians.... that is a trick I use when I want to sow discord amongst my enemies. The Seleucids will try to take it back and will start a war with the egyptians to do it... oh and if they refuse to accept it as a gift, try offering them a couple of 1000 mnai with it, they will take the bait then :)

cheers,


Pobs

[vollorix]

Hm, that´s strange, what about all those wars with Pahlava, Baktria and others, has AS signed peace treaty with all of them? o0
Yea, gifting towns to the opposite side would make sence, there is also another possibility: try to ensure revolts in distant cities like Kyrene - once Ptoleys own it, it often rebels to Seleucids, and the war will break out.
Also hire assains, lots of them, and try to kill any diplomate of both sides on enemys territory; though i don´t know if the place of killing matters, you still are able to prevent a quick peace between both nations, and you faction leader gets awsome traits and ancillaries, btw.
You also could involve the Carthaginians into the game, disrupting their alliance with Ptoleys, waging a little boarder conflict, as soon as rebel settlments are all captured, and factions boarder each other, they will bee quite keen to use an opportunity to start the war against each other. But you will have to retreat from some areas, to stop bordering both - AS and Ptoleys, once you´ve initiated several conflicts, try to ally yourself with Carthies or Pahlava, and use gifts, towns + cash ( small tribute of 200 mnai for 100 turns, for instance ) to ensure their loyality.
All in all, this sounds like a lot of fun you might have, - this could become not only a straight forward TW campaign, when you steamroll your enemies by brute military force, but when you play them against each other in order to survive, using all your "arabic" cunnings, and have an real "eastern" atmosphere of intrigue and treachery, hiding a sharp knife behind your back until it its time to strike ;)

[fomalhaut]

Yes! i have definitely been utilizing the shadier aspects of diplomacy, something i think is forgotten in these later total war games but a must in Shogun.

i have probably 30 spies out and about, a few acting as mobile watchtowers for the desert.

I have been waiting for Kart Hadast to do something! they could easily turn this whole thing around, i mean their Sacred Band of Baal has no qualms with sailing across the mediterannean to Roma so why not just take a walk over to kyrene?

I've always wanted to see the two great African powers fight but nope, Carthage is still allied with Ptolemy and literally isn't even at war with Lusotan yet. its been like 80 yeras now. Man i can't wait for EBII

[Nachtmeister]

Another, simple approach without the need for diplomacy or agents:

Gut the AS before they can spam elites at you; this way, you will have the money needed to counter the yellow death with mercenaries and elite troops of your own.

Strategy setup:

- besiege the two independent tribes bordering on Sab'Yn territory in the first turn, take their settlements as they sally forth from their walls.
- keep your faction leader moving around the Arabian peninsula with an army of at least 4 units of archer-spearmen, 2 units of Arabian light infantry, 1 unit of cavalry.
- recruit mercenary slingers on the way for garrison duty in occupied settlements.

When you reach Homna, should be somewhere between turn 15 and 17, stay long enough to set up a basic MIC and retrain your infantry; if you used them wisely, your archer-spearmen will not have sustained any significant casualties.
Then, move on to Gerrha, conquer, build MIC, retrain, get ready for war on AS.

... by now, it should be something like 265 BC and since peace with AS is not an option with a common border anyway - crush them. Your faction leader is *selfish*and quite likely already a warmonger by now, so you can roleplay a compelling alternate history with a Sabaean army rampaging all over Mesopotamia during the 260s - once you are done, you will have gained several unrest-prone hellenic settlements that will however provide you with the heavy infantry needed to face the yellow death in the west - and the AS will not be able to field a lot of missile-resistant infantry against your Arabian snipers because their military centers in the vicinity are all wiped out.
Also, the Persian gulf is an area very rich in trade (which is why it is part of your faction VCs anyway), so it will help to counter-balance the upkeep of your army.

Try to prepare an expedition across the red sea during the 260s as well - you can recruit elephants in Axum and Meroe with a lvl4 regional MIC, and once you have those, the yellow death will die horribly at every attempt to question your growing Arabic dominion.

[fomalhaut]

I do indeed have a veteran at the last town of the Arabian peninsula. He is getting older now, but he really earned his retirement. He is cultured, rational, and a damn good tactician it's true! but directly across the sea of sand lie the might of the Babylonian military; A full stack of Syrian Archers, Hyspaspitais and Silver Shields with 3 FM's are sitting on the border of the desert, waiting to strike. maybe they are scared? My main army is stationed there, and my silver chevron Arabian Archer (snipers lol) Spearmen truly are feared. I feel cheap when i use them as the enemy usually routes before they even engage in hand to hand combat.


Crazy stuff though!
so Palmya overthrew Ptolemy and gave me a half stack of 3 gold chevron Spearmen and Horses. I know just sitting and losing a war of attrition isn't my thing, as i don't plan on keeping a city in the middle of my two worst enemies so i go on a rampage in PT territory. I have mastered the phalanx, they really aren't a problem to me now as they are so slow and tired compared to anything Arabian. Well I see in a lightly defended town... their faction leader is spending the season there :) He is murdered immediately, i exterminate the population and destroy every building that is eastern greek and move on to Antioch. Before i could build siege weapons a full stack of medium phalanx and elite, bad ass Agema's with 2 family members strike. they were probably on their way to Arabia Proper but i messed up their plans. I run away to Tarsus, where i plop myself on a bridge for defense. The Full stack attacks me from the east side of the bridge and have to cross it to fight me, while the Tarsus defenders hit from the west. Let's just say 1500 Hellenic Native Spearmen and 300 Arabian Light beat off 2500 Medium Phalanx, 2 FM's and 1000 Agema (only on M but still!). The key was letting them out of bridge enough that I could have them surrounded and unable to effectively use their phalanx, but not too much as to their superior numbers/training/weapons could overwhelm me. My 300 Cav hit the Tarsus defenders over and over with charges to their rears which destroyed their morale, they routed, and i could focus everyone on the bridge.

My heroic victory is on the bridge for all to see, as i've destroyed my 3rd straight Babylonian army after Egypt finally gave up. They didn't learn from the Aigyptian brothers.

I can now build Red Sea Hoplites and and now on my way up the nile with a proper armored force. It's over for these snotty Hellenes :)

[Populus Romanus]

Edit out the profanities good sir!

[Cute Wolf]

Sbyn are best on blitzing, turtling with them are tempting since they had somewhat isolated starting position, but then, AS and Ptolies will sign a peace treaty ASAP when they spot your army march on either of their territories

[Ludens]

Edit out the profanities good sir!

:bow:

[fomalhaut]

I'm just haphazardly reinforcing this or that and holding off attacks from literally every single side and on every city. It really really really is just garbage that i have to go through this crap because its just poor A.I. rather than the nature of the campaign. AS now reaches from Byzantion all the way into the steppes (they literally just ignored Pontus, Hayasdan in the Caucus and Pahlva and Saka in the north so their borders surround theirs now) and all the way to the edge of the map in India. It's crap, total crap, and sucks out any sort of balance or fun from the game.

Ptolemy keep sending puny little stacks with a FM down the Nile every single turn. and every.single.turn. I absolutely annihilate every single army put against me though I can't reinforce as im so far up the Nile. I have killed just about their entire family now.

Suffice it to say but I think im going to just start cheating with autovictories or quitting AGAIN because this campaign is just a total and complete chore. It was fun fighting the big boys in their full might for a little while but now its just totally boring.

Due to Arabian infantry and the regional levies being mostly light I have to keep huge armies in my chokepoint cities since the only way to beat phalanxes with these types of guys is to use superior numbers to flank all sides. Due to this i make almost zero money but i can't ever disband my soldiers since i can't afford to lose the city they are defending. "Go on the offensive with them!" you say, but WAIT i tried and after beating a huge Ptolemy stack with nothing but Pendepotai and Horse Skirmishers i run into a full AS stack ! I wish i was exaggerating when i say that they both have probably 10 thousand soldiers just around the Levant area waiting for me to do anything. I wish the screenshot feature was working so i could show you guys :(

I get besieged in at least 6 cities every turn, no matter what. If i sally forth, it takes a good 6 minutes with 6x speed to get everyone out of the city. Then you play catch up to their army as they run away for the next 10 minutes. Then they FINALLY stop and you perform the exact same maneuvers that you've destroyed their last 60 armies with as fighting Phalanxes any other way is going to get you killed. It's just really really boring to me.

And its literally entirely because of the completely broken A.I. This could be a totally awesome campaign, but oh well

[Tuuvi]

Sorry to hear your Saby'n campaign is so boring, I'm pretty pleased with mine. What I did was I took the city directly to south of my capital, avoiding the one to the north until a little later because of it's potential to border the Ptolemies. Then I just sat and developed my two cities for years, until I had level two mines and the highest level barracks (well 2nd highest, since the highest level don't do anything). Then I built an army and began to conquer the other cities in my immediate area.

When the Ptolemies finally started war with me I was an insanely rich and well developed faction so fighting them hasn't been too hard so far. Right now I'm just focusing on holding Axum until I can get reinforcements to my whittled down army so I can take Meroe and the city to the north.

My diplomatic situation has been pretty cool as well, the Seleucids are allied with me but they are being eaten up by the Pahlava and Baktrians, the former having become pretty powerful. The Ptolemies are at war with the Seleucids and while they are one of the top five factions they haven't expanded too much outside their original starting position.

[Nachtmeister]

Hi fomalhaut,

I don't want to sound like a know-it-all or something... And I have re-started several Saba campaigns for the same reason as you or because I found new cities un-holdable due to culture penalties with no perspective to do something about it because they already were huge cities --- BUT I am just going to attempt some suggestions that I think might save your campaign.

Have you tried ethiopian cavalry? Until you get elephants, preferably in Erythrea because of the good logistical position, they are the kind of magic weapon that will destroy ptolemaic phalanxes and FMs. Ethiopian cavalry is POWERFUL. And not *that* expensive, either.
Having full stacks of arabian infantry will drain your treasury and also your population. Get a "hellenistic mercenary general" (because they move relatively fast on the campaign map), move north, get mercs, get back with mercs --- or obliterate a few cities behind enemy front lines, get more mercs with the money, then get back. This is the Saba way to heavy infantry...
Get the mines in Carna up to the highest possible production.
Set up a zealous Hawbas cult in your domain (law and trade bonuses).
Get the outlying settlements garrisoned (more law, less corruption)
... and build up the general economy. Ports and markets AND farms FTW...

And if you feel like doing something not historic or role-played, just with the purpose of crushing the AI -
If you can at some point spare a full stack but no more - move it waaay behind enemy lines (with a very very careful, stealthy fleet), take Ankyra with it. From there, start conquering surrounding settlements and building type IV governments with gallic (cheap) client rulers everywhere...
Anatolia has what you need: Heavy infantry, lots of mines and money, good defensive chokepoints once you have taken it completely.

I hope something of this is useful to you.

[fomalhaut]

No that is all very helpful and along the lines of what I did myself.

I ended up, after some very very long and hard fighting took out the last of Ptolemy on Africa and the Levant.

They are now refuged on Cyprus with their last family member waiting to die in exiled shame.

I roleplayed some things, which is what i really like to do. I mostly had a mercenary army go up the Nile, as it made more sense for a trading empire to hire others rather than waste weak natives and regionals. I captured Alexandrai and Diopis and from there i forced diplomacy to give up the rest of their African Territory as they were officially without any form of central government and let's face it, most of the natives were only fighting on behalf of the nobility in Alexandreia anyway, not because they hate me. Their Asia Minor holdings were then slowly eaten by AS, KH, and myself where I now go as far north as Antioch, which is proving to be a VERY profitable and great region to hold. The regionals are better than anything I can train anywhere else.

(i also like to capture Rome as whoever and roleplay that the newly 'voted in' [my nobles and turncoat romans] Senate officially decrees all those who continue to resist as usurpers and rebels, enemies to the Roman state. It makes taking over the rest of Italia a really cool experience with lots of fun roleplaying opportunities)

I have probably 50 spies in AS territory just destroying their public order, but for some reason the rebels don't ever fight AS. AS starves them out every single time.


Ultimately though i just quit as of a few minutes ago.
Why, you ask? I had finally ended in a cool way my immediate rival and i now control the rich lands of Egypt and Judaea and my conquering general Yawhim, after 25 years of fighting with men of every nation and tongue, retired in Augila where he is overseeing its improvement and also keeping an eye on Carthage.

Well, By the time i build roads in Kyrene Carthage sent a half stack of Elites...
...
...
...
...
are you kidding me?????? after 60 years of bordering Egypt you NEVER, NOT ONCE initiated war with them! now before even ONE YEAR has passed they are sending their absolute best to fight me?????
I just can't stand this crap man

[Cute Wolf]

are you kidding me?????? after 60 years of bordering Egypt you NEVER, NOT ONCE initiated war with them! now before even ONE YEAR has passed they are sending their absolute best to fight me?????
I just can't stand this crap man

maybe before this time:
1) they are busy kicking Lusotann's arses (check if they either gain significant additions in Iberia or lost it completely)
2) they are busy fighting on and off wars with Romaioi (as usual)
3) you are just tad unlucky

If I were you, I'll start levying Machimoi and Jews, then fight them back and Sack Kart-Hadast, this time, it will be MUCH easier for ya since you are at the very same semitic culture with them (and thus don't suffer culture penalty). Machimoi's ap kopis will make short works of most Kart-Hadast elites, and Jews are great for mainstay line (to resist Libyans)

[A_Dane]

I do not remember it really well, since it´s an eternity since i´ve played vanilla last time, but could it be that the AI factions are acting this way, partly(?), because there are no multiple Roman factions, and, perhaps even the SPQR superfaction in the game anymore? Does anyone remember if this aggressive behaivour of the AI primary occured after one used to win the Roman Civil War, or if it was normal for the factons even before? What i remember was, while playing Juli, i used to get peace proposals from Greeks, Carthaginians or others, after the Senate used to give me a mission against those factions, like blockading their port for a turn, and i was at war with them. They allways asked for peace, and were readily paying tribute for accepting it.

Btw: fomalhaut - what difficulty are you playing on? have you tried medium, or even easy? I mean, you are not competing with the AI, but instead are trying to have a nice game, so, the only way i see to prevent that rediculos behaiviour of the AI, allying themselvs against a small desert nation, would be do choose the lowest difficulty level.

On the other hand, it´s quite understandable, when AI, programmed to hate the human player, is taking a break fighting each other when kind of super agressive nation emerges on their both boarders, threatening them at the same time. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - i find it quite logical. Once they´d throw you out off their boarders, they´d gladly sign a peace treate with you, i´m sure. So, perhaps the solution lies in avoiding common boarders with both superpowers at the same time? ;)

The reason the AI asked for peace with you was most likely because you did not share a border, I still get peace proposals from nations i don't share a border with. Hell yesterday the Arverni actually accepted one when we had a 1 province border, never happened to me before. And yes, I remember the suicidal AI from vanilla all too well, in vanilla however it wasn't really a problem, as you could easily have multiple armies fighting on multiple fronts and beat the AI armies without really trying...(only time i had any real difficulties because of the AI, was as the seleucids and was fighting egypt, pontus, armenia, parthia and the greeks... so many suicide stacks that just wore me down...)

In any case, I don't play on VH if I'm an underdog anymore, I'll go as high as Hard, but not VH. It simply becomes a bore fighting multiple armies of seleucids, ptollies, romans or makedonians, and not have them fight anyone else. Hard makes it better to a point where i can actually enjoy the game..

[Cute Wolf]

well, wat is funnier than playing as KH (in BI) and go up against a very unlikely alliance IRL? Epeiros + Makedon + SPQR + Sauromatae (thanks for rebelling, Cherosonessos) + Ptolemaioi (Halicarnassos rebellion as well) + AS (guess, they try to beiege Halicarnassos)

without any ally? :laugh4:


the best campaign ever, especially when the romans land a fullstack of Camillan troops in near empty Sparte and my army rushes to save them.