How to use cavalry?

[13westst]

First post here. Ill start out by saying that this mod, which i just downloaded, is essentially amazing. The level of detail presented still leaves me confused at times, but I know that it is all to add depth to the game. Anyways, now to my question. I find cavalry especially hard to use. I find that they lose or suffer significant losses versus peasant slinger like units. So how do you use them? thanks in advance!

[Ludens]

Hello 13westst, welcome to the .Org and to EB!

Given that the EB2 modification hasn't been released yet, I assume your question is about EB1. I'll move it to the proper forum.

[vollorix]

Hier is Ibrahims guide: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?103172-a-quick-guide-to-using-cavalry..&highlight=use+cavalry+guide
You can allways search the forums for some usefull topics - no need to invent the wheel again ;)
Also, there are different types of cavalry ( light, medium, heavy ), each with different secondary weapon, partly armour piercing, etc. And each type has it´s own purpose on the battlefield. You might like to take a look at EB units in detail without reading the EDU ( the files, which define the stats of the units in game ): http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?
Gl&HF.

Edit: hm, didn´t notice the topic was actually in EB2 forums...

[jirisys]

First post here. Ill start out by saying that this mod, which i just downloaded, is essentially amazing. The level of detail presented still leaves me confused at times, but I know that it is all to add depth to the game. Anyways, now to my question. I find cavalry especially hard to use. I find that they lose or suffer significant losses versus peasant slinger like units. So how do you use them? thanks in advance!

Slings are blunt and therefore the force of the impact (being that it's huge nevertheless) passes through the armor and renders most armors useless to slingers.

Horses are far easier to kill than teeth armored men, since in RTW they die both for some reason, you should keep them away from fighting even archers, they can kill your horses fast.

Tactic: Hit and run. Ahistorical? Maybe. Sadly the AI always brings some foot unit to a cavalry fight...

~Jirisys ()

[VikingPower]

Always see the cavalry in context with that how they can support their infantry or the infantry support their cav.

Like when fighting enemy cav then never go with your cav against the same number of their, but try to use infantry as a moveable wall which can isolate the cav from their main army.

Don't divide your cav to both flanks in equal number, but try to horde them against the enemy's cav on other flank. If possible leave out 1 fast moving cav on the other flank to help main infantry by attacking the enemy infantry in the back, while the enemy cav is busy fighting yours.

The good thing about fast moving cav is that they can easily outrun heavier enemy cav and they can chase up with other fast moving cav to STOP them untill your heavier cav can come in support.


Never let your cav go alone behind the enemy's army to fight some cav duel if the enemy cav and archers are better than yours. Never chase fast moving enemy cav too far from your own army but ignore them and attack the enemy infantry in the back.

[moonburn]

another fact i´ve noticed is that for instance you can kill slingers with cavalry and loose x amount of soldiers if your cavarly is stronger then the enemies cavarly (and stronger normally means heavier with decent kopis for hand to hand so always remember to change to swords when in melee) you can kill their cavarly with x amount of casualties but when you fight them ombined you always loose xy*z (meaning you get beaten badly) and not just x+y casualties so even the crapiest cavarly and the crapiest peasents can defeat your strongest cavarly when it´s not properly suported

[vartan]

[...] you should keep [cavalry] away from fighting even archers, they can kill your horses fast [...]
~Jirisys ()
This misfortune can be frustrating, but I tell myself that the archers are fighting back by dragging down those pony riders.

[Lazy O]

The proper way is to harrass the enemy archers so they dont get their volleys off in time and your skirmishers gain the advantage. Ofc, heavy cavalry are useless for this role in EB

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Combined arms is absolutely crucial in EB, unless you are a horse-archer faction.

[fomalhaut]

The proper way is to harrass the enemy archers so they dont get their volleys off in time and your skirmishers gain the advantage. Ofc, heavy cavalry are useless for this role in EB

it seriously blew my mind when i figured this out myself. Oh bye Cataphract... yes i see you've been stabbed by this peasants dull dagger... yep.

[Atraphoenix]

I have nearly forgotten how to use infantry phew... :grin:
In summery, with patience mate.

What worries me so much that in M2TW Cavalry sucks, their charges suck, they secondary weapon sucks (you you double click they changes to swords before hitting with lances),... :wall:

In EB I have played nearly all the battles myself but in M2TW it is around 50/50...:embarassed:
Golden rule is for EB is simple never charge from front and kill slingers first.

and yes, my worst concern about EB2 is going to be this question :juggle2:

[A_Dane]

Are people really having problem with Heavy cavalry? s: I suck at micromanaging cavalry, but still when I'm playing as a hellenistic faction they're crucial to my warfare, and those that kill the most, to the least ammount of casualties. The only thing I really worry about is slingers/phalanxes, which is why i always have archers or a light cavalry regiment to deal with any slingers they have. Meanwhile my heavy cav kill the enemy general and then charge the back of the enemy, to suppourt my flanking AP units. This works like a charm on pretty much everything but elites, which will require more than 1 charge.

[Randal]

Cavalry in Medieval 2 is -far- more powerful than in Europa Barbarorum, in just about any mod.

Yes, charges are trickier to pull off, require more time and more micromanagement. But one good charge destroys an entire enemy infantry unit. (Or cripples several, if the enemy masses levy units against you.)

That weapon switching thing only happens if you are too hasty in trying to charge after withdrawing, or sometimes when the terrain is unsuitable for a charge.

I think Europa Barbarorum hits an excellent balance with charges that no medieval mod has quite managed to duplicate, but if anything cavalry in mêlée are too hard to kill. That cataphract killed by an archer's knife is a rare, rare exception. My good heavy infantry and even spearmen generally struggle against cataphracts for ages without killing more than a couple.

I also frequently fight archers in mêlée for extended periods of time, and using the right kinds of cavalry this tends to work just fine. I avoid spear-armed archers though.

[Tyrfingr]

Given all the classic, historical examples of archers being vunerable to cavalry, I find it extra curious that archers in EB can stand up to cavalry at all. However, some casualties ought to be expected even when cavalry-charging archers, especially as the charge slows down and archers starting to pull down riders from their horses.

[vollorix]

One could simply put a very small value ( max. "3", otherwise you´d still get "good moral" attribute on the unit cards, irrc ) for the moral of levy archer and slinger units and they should rout on the first contact with any unit heavier then them, like the peasants in vanilla used to.

[Cute Wolf]

EB cavalry are still much better in terms of balance, between power and vulnerability.

[A_Dane]

Cavalry in Medieval 2 is -far- more powerful than in Europa Barbarorum, in just about any mod.

Yes, charges are trickier to pull off, require more time and more micromanagement. But one good charge destroys an entire enemy infantry unit. (Or cripples several, if the enemy masses levy units against you.)

That weapon switching thing only happens if you are too hasty in trying to charge after withdrawing, or sometimes when the terrain is unsuitable for a charge.

I think Europa Barbarorum hits an excellent balance with charges that no medieval mod has quite managed to duplicate, but if anything cavalry in mêlée are too hard to kill. That cataphract killed by an archer's knife is a rare, rare exception. My good heavy infantry and even spearmen generally struggle against cataphracts for ages without killing more than a couple.

I also frequently fight archers in mêlée for extended periods of time, and using the right kinds of cavalry this tends to work just fine. I avoid spear-armed archers though.

This. The only archer units that ever got me scared on behalf of my heavy cav, are archer-spearmen, never had any trouble in archers vs cataphracts.

If you're playing very hard battles you're asking for it though...

[Atraphoenix]

Normal battle difficulty is too easy for me both for EB1 and M2TW,
Although some differs I play Hard for both.

BTW I mostly kill enemy generals with arrow fire. It looks like arrows have AP in M2TW?

[A_Dane]

I play battles on Hard, still easy, but i refuse to watch my elite units get torn apart by some useless levy unit. It dosn't really change anything, the outcome is mostly the same, only difference is that I'll suffer more losses for some ridicolous reason, which i must admit kills any sort of immersion i get from the game.

[Randal]

I play battles on normal because I don't like stat-bonuses for the AI.

In Medieval 2 I play them on very hard, though. There the AI just gets better stamina and morale, no stat bonuses to speak of.

I imagine difficulty will make a big difference in how effective your cavalry is against archers in Rome mods.

(No, arrows in Medieval 2 are not armour-piercing except English longbows in vanilla. Crossbows, too. In mods like Broken Crescent longbows aren't armour piercing, though crossbows still are.)

[Lazy O]

Longbows and Corssbows make perfect sense to be AP.

[gamegeek2]

Longbows should only be AP with bodkin arrows, but then they should get reduced accuracy or attack.

[vartan]

Considering that Armour Piercing doesn't mean armour piercing but rather 'consider half of the enemy's armour', I don't know if it much matters!

[Cute Wolf]

Considering that Armour Piercing doesn't mean armour piercing but rather 'consider half of the enemy's armour', I don't know if it much matters!

it matters much if the armour rate is not 1 or 2, but 11 or 12

[A_Dane]

it matters much if the armour rate is not 1 or 2, but 11 or 12

aye.. having a unit with 20 armor go down to 10 against a specific unit can be quite significant..

[vartan]

it matters much if the armour rate is not 1 or 2, but 11 or 12
That's precisely the issue. It is always half. Why are the effects not even more staggering as the numbers get higher? Or perhaps there should be an even more complex model. Must the quantification of the effects of so-called armour piercing weaponry always result in the consideration of precisely half of the armour in question?

[Lazy O]

Why must you over complicate everything?

[Randal]

I actually think it would be a big improvement if we could specify just -how- "armour piercing" a specific weapon is. If you could give, say, a club a small bonus and a flanged mace a bigger one.

As is, the "armour piercing" trait is too all-or-nothing for my tastes. I think it makes the specific weapon choice too significant compared to troop quality and training. (AKA as "Why didn't the Roman Legions arm themselves with clubs? Then they'd have conquered Parthia by defeating their cataphracts." Someone learning history from playing EB might legitimately ask that question.)

Still, it's wishful thinking, I know. The point is moot, the trait is what it is, and we'll have to deal with it.

[Lazy O]

Bottomline is, without it, Kataphractoi are useless

[Cute Wolf]

Wooden club is indeed lethal when used by strong big men that trained with it, like some screaming germans, and thus, logic to have AP, however, when used by average men, they aren't much better than simple stick, and thus shouldn't have AP.

in fact, bludgeon weapons are used worldwide in wars, but it seems axe is much supperior bludgeon weapon than club, so I'll rather ask why Romans don't arm themselves with axe? (I know sharp edged battle axe is cutting weapon as well, I talk about the commoner's axe that rarely sharpened and not well-treated for weapons, they are in fact bludgeon wepon)

[moonburn]

axes perfurate armour but it´s a complete drag when it gets stuck in armour or even some skinny dudes ribs

have you ever tryed removing an axe while there´s alot of blood pouring out of the dudes wound into your face and it´s stuck beteween 2 vertebraes ? the time it takes you you can die 20 times better to leave it and grab something else in that sence the sword makes more sence goes in slices and cuts and never gets stuck unleass you´re fighting a kung fu master who can grab it with both palm of his hands and by some wierd reason the short priest can outstrenght you :\

[athanaric]

Considering that Armour Piercing doesn't mean armour piercing but rather 'consider half of the enemy's armour', I don't know if it much matters!

IMO the Armour piercing trait should be broken down to a scale, let's say measured in steps of 25%. For example, a sling bullet/bodkin arrow/falcata could be AP1 (ignores 25% or such), a mace could be AP2 (50%), and so on. Of course, this is purely academic. But still more accurate than the somewhat simplistic parameters of TW games.



axes perfurate armour but it´s a complete drag when it gets stuck in armour or even some skinny dudes ribs

have you ever tryed removing an axe while there´s alot of blood pouring out of the dudes wound into your face and it´s stuck beteween 2 vertebraes ?That sounds as if you had already tried it. Now I'm a little bit worried. Is there a confession you'd like to make? Like, have their bodies already been found?

[vartan]

That sounds as if you had already tried it. Now I'm a little bit worried. Is there a confession you'd like to make? Like, have their bodies already been found?
Looks like the five year hunt is over. Ironic as it is, we have found our suspect on a war forum. How beautiful!

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Relax - he hasn't tried it - or he'd know that running someone through with a sword can often result in a stuck sword unable to be pulled out one-handed. You have to put your foot on the corpse for leverage and pull at the hilt with both hands and all your strength (twisting the blade around a bit helps if you can manage it, as it makes the wound wider and round-shaped instead of a narrow slit - although sometimes the rotating action is not possible if the corpse is wearing body armour). This is naturally a time-consuming process in the middle of a fight and effectively leaves you weaponless for several seconds. Sometimes you just have to leave your own sword stuck in the corpse, and quickly snatch up another one from a fallen comrade.

;)

[vartan]

And how do you know this, Titus?

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

And how do you know this, Titus?

From reading many books (both fact and fiction) with descriptions similiar to the above.

[antisocialmunky]

He found your cave.

[fomalhaut]

listen guys all i am saying is that Akontistai should not be able to stab Sacred Band Cavalry to death.

[jirisys]

listen guys all i am saying is that Akontistai should not be able to stab Sacred Band Cavalry to death.

Their horses, however, are prone to get knifed on their unarmoured areas.

~Jirisys ()

[Qvintvs]

I still can't figure out if a sword is better to use than a spear during melee. Nor can i tell overhand spears from...other kind.

[vollorix]

Now thats a picture i really would like to see: a 120 men group of unarmoured men, protected only by their tiny shield, if at all, untrained, not disciplined, in a loose formation, beeing charged by a group of 50 riders, and they are somehow able to stay on their feet ( lets put aside the initial charge, though, the horses would still be able to charge even if the men are running away - the speed difference is too big! ), willing to try to stab armoured riders, or their horses, staying among warhorses, which are a weapon for themself, instead of trying to save their life? I simply do not believe that, no way!
On the streets, perhaps, ambushing a small or tired unit of riders, isolated, or in a forest, but i find this simply unrealistic, sorry...

[fomalhaut]

no not only stand and fight, but do some much damange as to cause me to pull out completely! I would run away from a charge of Hippokontistai let alone Hetairoi!
and yes too bad engine limitations means that horse death=rider death.

[vollorix]

@fomalhaut: there is a very easy way to break skirmishers: double charge from 2 directions, especially from the front and the rear - insta rout ( once skirmishers are in melee, and cannot use their "skirmish" mod, one of the charges, normaly the second one, delivers the actual shock effect - boom! ;) ). Charge first with some melee resistent cavalry ( decent armour, shield etc ), bodyguards are perfect, while the second charge needs to be just decent, 24+ ( the higher the better, of course ). Normaly your heavy cavalry is allready a bit tired, so that the lethality, and the absence of the initial charge ( due to the "skirmishing", or running away from it ) do not have the impact they would if a unit is fresh and the charge has been fully completed.

Another thing i´ve just found in "Aradans EDU guide" that bothers me:
Minimum delay between weapon attacks, measured in 1/10 of seconds. It is the minimum time allowed between the beginning of an attacking animation and the beginning of the next one. It only applies to foot melee skeletons.
Now, according to this quote, the delay of cavalry spears units wouldn´t work at all, i assume? :thinking:

[athanaric]

Now thats a picture i really would like to see: a 120 men group of unarmoured men, protected only by their tiny shield, if at all, untrained, not disciplined, in a loose formation, beeing charged by a group of 50 riders, and they are somehow able to stay on their feet ( lets put aside the initial charge, though, the horses would still be able to charge even if the men are running away - the speed difference is too big! ), willing to try to stab armoured riders, or their horses, staying among warhorses, which are a weapon for themself, instead of trying to save their life? I simply do not believe that, no way!
On the streets, perhaps, ambushing a small or tired unit of riders, isolated, or in a forest, but i find this simply unrealistic, sorry...

Loose formation is broken, especially in combination with skirmish mode. It's a common problem when you're fighting against the Lusotannan. A countermeasure is to spam archers or morale breakers.

[Sdragon]

Problem is you can't deal a real charge on skirmishers when they are running away. Once contact is made your horse men just ride around in circles inside the enemy formation. I find that right after contact, pressing stop and ordering an attack with swords works best.

[antisocialmunky]

Charge is actually kinda buggy in RTW and M2TW. Only in ETW - S2TW does it act physically correct. One of the things you can do, is run a unit of high morale skirmishes infront of a cavalry unit BEFORE the unit lowers its lances. This will basically stop a charge and do very little damage to the skirmishers. In fact, you only need to touch a very small part of the cav unit to make it fail a charge.

[vartan]

Charge is actually kinda buggy in RTW and M2TW. Only in ETW - S2TW does it act physically correct. One of the things you can do, is run a unit of high morale skirmishes infront of a cavalry unit BEFORE the unit lowers its lances. This will basically stop a charge and do very little damage to the skirmishers. In fact, you only need to touch a very small part of the cav unit to make it fail a charge.
Hey now, you just rigged half of the MP battles right there!

[fomalhaut]

yeah i just finally conquered the Lusotan's and my lord are they stupid to fight. Hammer and Anvil does NOT work against them since half their units double as hyper effective skirmishers. Many of the Sacred Band now fertilize the earth in Iberia :(

[antisocialmunky]

It takes a ton of micro to combat cavalry micro which means your heavy infantry must be able to actually beat the enemy heavy infantry. There's also the problem that everyone maxes out on elite missiles that just shred every single 'fast' skirmisher type(the only type that can actually intercept cavalry) and morale is a huge problem. Which basically means that you'll probably have no cavalry, need to have super elite missile units (or slinger spam), and chevroned skirmishers.

And the skirms will eventually break unless you have enough archers/slingers to whittle down the cavalry in between each intercepted charge....

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

and yes too bad engine limitations means that horse death=rider death.

Horse death did equal rider death historically because once the rider is unhorsed, he will be the primary target of every enemy around him. A man on foot is a lot easier to surround and kill than a man on horseback. It's human nature to go for the easiest target.

[athanaric]

yeah i just finally conquered the Lusotan's and my lord are they stupid to fight. Hammer and Anvil does NOT work against them since half their units double as hyper effective skirmishers. Many of the Sacred Band now fertilize the earth in Iberia :(

I found that Gallic swordsmen (Bataroas, but also Botroas if the former aren't available) work quite well against them - because of their high melee lethality, good stamina, and large unit size. Also, their armour is so low that the typical Iberian AP trait is useless against them. You can hire them as mercenaries in Northern Iberia or Gaul. Also, pair them up with morale breakers. Not elephants of course, since they're very vulnerable to javelins, but naked fanatics of any sort. Carthage can even recruit Gaesatae (in Gaul) for that purpose.

Also, if you're SPQR or Gauls, and hence coming from the Northeast, you can try to gain a foothold in Lacetania and start recruiting Milites Ilergetum for fighting the Lusotannan. They're more reliable than the Gaulish dudes, but come in smaller numbers.

[fomalhaut]

Yep Milites Illegertum helped out alot in Iberia. I especially liked how Carthage got a skin for them, it made them feel much more a part of my army. There was some tension between them and my Celtiberian Dunaminancae but when 4000 Lusotanians are surrounding you those hatreds tend to go right away

[Shade]

After playing no Total War but EB for a long time, I tried some Medieval 2. It was amazing how powerful cavalry charges were, especially from behind. I recall that at one point I had a full-cavalry army just marauding around the enemy countryside, causing chaos and destruction. It was just a family member plus a lot of heavy knights, so sieges were only winnable by waiting for the enemy to either starve or sally. Of course, I nearly panicked when I was cornered by an entire army of spearmen.

As it turns out, the sheer charging power of cavalry is more than enough to pummel through any spearman army.