Some AI factions not trading with me

[al Roumi]

I'm about half way through my first Shimazu campaign on normal difficulty and I've come accross a certain reticence to trade among (indifferent to friendly) AI factions -even my allies.

I'm having a little trouble understanding why this might be -and I'm especially concerned that this doesn't make sense to me as a conscious strategic choice by the AI.

For example, i'd have thought that AI factions would seek to trade as much as possible. Clearly, trade would not readily happen between hostile factions, but why would allies not trade? Only in more or less extreme cases where the gain to one party was disproportinately higher than the other could I understand NOT trading. I guess it could also be a sign that the AI doesn't think our alliance will last (hmm, where's my ninja).

I do remember this as a problem in Empire and earlier 3d TW games but alot more of the diplomacy does seem to make sense in S2 so I'm not sure what to make of this issue...

Has anyone else come across this kind of behaviour? For what other reasons might an AI faction not trade?

[Gregoshi]

Roumi, do you just do a straight up trade agreement, or have you tried sweetening the pot with some gold, marriage or hostage exchange? Have you tried to threaten? I did have one case where the Takeda actually made a counter-offer suggesting I toss in some gold (less than what I was considering doing when I thought about adding a one-time payment). I was pleasantly surprised that the diplomacy AI did that. The Takeda were much stronger than I was, so the demand made sense. Also, are you allies or have a trade agreement with one of their enemies?

[Lord Benihana]

I have had the same issue playing as Shimazu on normal. I have 4 of the trade nodes (all the ones by Kyushu) so I was surprised that they didn't want those goods. I am the strongest faction by far... the only way I have gotten people to trade with me is also offering an alliance - but this has only worked when I have had a common enemy with the clan I am approaching

Advice on how to trade better in this game would be helpful. I think diplomacy is very good in Shogun 2 - but getting trade partners seems harder than in any title since MTW1 - (the first one I played)

[crpcarrot]

what ive found is that only freindly factions will accept trade agreements outright. all tohers need an additional bribe to get the trade going. once you set up an offer under the picture of the other clan daimyo you see how likely they are to accept the offer and this is generally very good indicator if the proposal will be accepted.

other things to consider: difficulty you play on, allies and enemies, religion.

also trade is not the strong suite of TW dont expect civ5 type dispomacy here.

[Gregoshi]

other things to consider: ...religion.
Good thought.

[al Roumi]

Roumi, do you just do a straight up trade agreement, or have you tried sweetening the pot with some gold, marriage or hostage exchange? Have you tried to threaten? I did have one case where the Takeda actually made a counter-offer suggesting I toss in some gold (less than what I was considering doing when I thought about adding a one-time payment). I was pleasantly surprised that the diplomacy AI did that. The Takeda were much stronger than I was, so the demand made sense. Also, are you allies or have a trade agreement with one of their enemies?

I have had counter offers including gold sweeteners - but as they only ask you for extra cash when you have available gelt, its possible i've not had the means so they've not counter-offered. Also, I do seem to get requests for cash from factions weaker than mine and I can also understand that as a subsidy.

The case I really can't explain is a 2 province ally (I have 14 provinces), with whom I also share indefinite millitary access to each others' territory. This faction will apparently not trade with me at all -despite us also being friendly -and in a war against a common enemy. I don't have any available hostages and as I'm not awash with cash I've not got much to offer! It's in this case that I think maybe the AI is considering either: 1)how to back-stab me (perhaps becasue I now encircle his lands) 2)that i'll make more from the mutual trade than they will.

My Shimazu are Shinto and I closed my only Nanban trade port (filthy christians) as part of an aggressive and enforced Shinto revivalism in northen Kyushu. The ally in question is also Shinto. We'll see what happens, maybe they will backstab me, in which case I will be obliged to eradicate this aberrant AI behaviour...

[Centurion1]

i think i may have figured it out. check your daimyo's honor rating yet?

its a possibility.

[al Roumi]

i think i may have figured it out. check your daimyo's honor rating yet?

its a possibility.

Could be. I'm not aware of double crossing people though I have ended a few alliances that no longer suited me here and there, I also did twice declare war on seperate erstwhile trading partners.

On the scale of daimyo dastardliness that's not that bad though -and surely not bad enough for a friendly ally with Mil access to be hesitant about trade is it? :shrug:

[knoddy]

i found adding sweetners was the only way sometimes.

sometimes they would accept outright, sometimes i had to add gold. or offer to cancle trade with their enemy or even to declare war on their enemy. im sure there are alot of factors that are involved in this but it seems just a bit of offer counter offer trying to nut out a deal. not a bad thing imo.

[al Roumi]

i think i may have figured it out. check your daimyo's honor rating yet?

its a possibility.

My honour was a medicore 3 (cancelling 2 alliances), and the ally in question quickly turned their back on me when the Shogun called for action against me. Interstingly, the Chosokabe who i'd been firm and consistent allies with did not. Shame about the whole rest of Honshu...

[Zarky]

My honour was a medicore 3 (cancelling 2 alliances), and the ally in question quickly turned their back on me when the Shogun called for action against me. Interstingly, the Chosokabe who i'd been firm and consistent allies with did not. Shame about the whole rest of Honshu...

I'm never too big on sticking by my allies, therefore I try not to ally too much and end up with diplomatic penalty for treaties broken, which makes it harder to make new deals in the future.
I think the amount you need to add to sweeten the deal has something to do with the predicted income of that trading route.
As Mori controlling majority of the trade nodes making 13K per turn from trade I sometimes had to pay 2-5 thousand to non-vassals just to get them to trade.
Also a hint: don't trust the Chosokabe! If they control Shikoku, they'll have decent income and in my games they always end up building huge castles in their capital and in the province that has stone, impossible to take if properly guarded and you can't starve them out either because you're on an island at the mercy of winter and nowhere to retreat but the sea.
So far I've always had to blockade their ports and leave them like that, thinking that they're not worth the effort.

[Dodge_272]

When playing as Uesegi, who have a strong trade boni, everyone wanted to trade with me... for free!

[knoddy]

My honour was a medicore 3 (cancelling 2 alliances), and the ally in question quickly turned their back on me when the Shogun called for action against me. Interstingly, the Chosokabe who i'd been firm and consistent allies with did not. Shame about the whole rest of Honshu...

they will. i was allied with teh chosokabe for along long time. i had excellent relations with them. it took like 10 years after the realm divide but that and my expansionist ways eventually led them to breaking their alliance with me and entering into an alliace with every other major faction left. and then declaring on me about 4 turns later.

[Daevyll]

Besides the diplomatic points already mentioned above, have you considered the purely economic side of things, ie which trade goods you and your prospective partner were importing/exporting?

At the bottom of the scroll for each party you can see all trade goods, and whether you/them are importing, exporting or have no access to them.
This decides how 'useful' a tradepartner you are to them and viceversa, if you only export things they already export themselves etcetera there is little advantage for them.

[al Roumi]

they will. i was allied with teh chosokabe for along long time. i had excellent relations with them. it took like 10 years after the realm divide but that and my expansionist ways eventually led them to breaking their alliance with me and entering into an alliace with every other major faction left. and then declaring on me about 4 turns later.

I spoke too soon above. The ally with no interest in trade deserted me on turn 3 after the Shogun declared me persona non grata. Then, as you said, the Chosokabe ditched me too and my income nose-dived.


Besides the diplomatic points already mentioned above, have you considered the purely economic side of things, ie which trade goods you and your prospective partner were importing/exporting?

At the bottom of the scroll for each party you can see all trade goods, and whether you/them are importing, exporting or have no access to them.
This decides how 'useful' a tradepartner you are to them and viceversa, if you only export things they already export themselves etcetera there is little advantage for them.

I hadn't noticed that. thanks!

[knoddy]

my suggestion having just finished my first camp. once u get the realm divide event, start making vassals. gives u some1 to trade with BUT be warned they will turn on u eventually. u can keep them happy with marriages n stuff but eventually they will attack u but it gives u some trade income for a while. also they can inflict some pain on your enemies, i brought the oda and takeda back as vassals and between them they stole like 10 provinces from the massive hojo until oda turned on me :S

[LeftEyeNine]

I couldn't read the whole thread but on the faction summary panel (main diplomacy screen without any negotiations) you can see tiny icons placed on each acquainted clan's tab. It tells you whether you can or can not trade, and in the latter case generally being unable to assign you any trade routes. That's generally the main cause. I've even managed to trade with "unfriendly" clans as far I as remember.