Unit depth and defense

[hamysho]

Sorry if this a newbie question but this is my first Total war game since shogun 1. :laugh4:

Is there an optimal depth for melee and ranged units? And what's the reason for depth, will a unit that has a thin line rout faster than a unit that's deeper?

And the difference between armor and defense skill. Does armor add to your melee defense for a cumulative damage reduction or is armor just used against missile attacks.

Thank you!

[al Roumi]

Sorry if this a newbie question but this is my first Total war game since shogun 1. :laugh4:

Is there an optional depth for melee and ranged units? And what's the reason for depth, will a unit that has a thin line rout faster than a unit that's deeper?

I assume you mean optimal depth? I don't think there really is as it's as much a function of the unit's ability, size, the enemy it will face and your tactics.

I've not noticed archers having any difficulty with direct/indirect fire due to their formation (as in MTW2) but I'd imagine you'd want as broad a frontage to your teppo units as possible for more shots per volley (i've not used any yet but I doubt they have fire by rank or other drills).

When it comes to melee, I'd say it depends on the unit's role. A unit designed to charge and break through opponents will want a resonably deep formation. Similarly, a unit designated to defend against a charge will want some depth to keep its place in the line. Then again, your line does need to be broad enough to fix the main enemy charge and prevent enemy flanking whilst also allowing for your own flanking movements.

While what I mention about charging units will also hold for cavalry, it's worth remembering that a unit in a tighter formation (i.e. like a square/column) should maneuvre faster than a unit deployed in a line. This was certainly the case in Empire and other TW games but I've not noticed it to the same degree in TWS2 due probably to the (comparatively) high unit movement speeds.

[Zarky]

(i've not used any yet but I doubt they have fire by rank or other drills).


There is fire by rank available when you're standing still, so best depth for teppo units is probably 2-4 lines depending on the battlefield.
I don't think there is one optimal depth for other units, cavalry will probably smash through any unit that is stretched too thin even without wedge formation.
I use rather thin lines because I've never ran into a situation where I'd be critically out of space, where deep lines would be more beneficial or where I was at risk of being charged by cavalry.

I suppose it depends mostly on your style of play.

[Rothe]

I prefer to make my weak units (ashigaru) into more deep ranks when fighting enemy's stronger units and the stronger units (all kinds of samurai/monks) into more thin formations when fighting enemy's weak units.

I believe that for instance spear ashigaru will last a bit longer if you have a deep formation, and this gives a bit more time for flanking with other units etc.

So, in short, maximise your offense when you are winning unit vs. unit (wide and thin formation) and minimize your losses (deep formation) when losing unit vs. unit.

[Daevyll]

My theory: making a unit deep in ranks reduces its frontage ie the number of men that are actually fighting as opposed to waiting to 'step in' (wll as long as the formation holds anyway).
Less men fighting means less casualties caused, but also less casualties received.

Therefore, I try to keep good offensive troops who should cause maximum casualties (like no-dachi) in a wide frontage, say 3-4 ranks deep, so many actualyl get to swing their swords and kill. More defensively oriented troops like Naginata and Yari whose task is not so much to kill the enemy as to hold them in place while others kill them, I deploy in deeper formations.
Nothing but the old 'hammer and anvil' really.

That said, I base this purely on 'real world expectations', I'm not sure what all the actual game mechanics are. It would be logical for deep formations to gain some sort of morale bonus for instance, but I dont really know if that is the case. Perhaps someone from CA can give us a hint?

[Kocmoc]

1. thin lines means less casualties vs enemy missles.
- If you have 3 or more ranks, the arrows can hit more, while one line, many are hitting the ground before and behind the line

2. firing out of many ranks. All archer will fire from all ranks, it makes no difference as long the mens are in range
- Problem here is, that if you have archer in many ranks, see point 1 and also you have to move closer to the enemy, to get all your ranks into range.

Note: Missles are pretty buggy, especially the direct firing order is a problem, if the enemy unit isnt fully in range!
in S2 every single men in a unit is treaded separately! You can have just one single men shooting and will see the "shooting" icon on that unit. You have to watch this carefully!

2.1. guns fire with the first line only! There are ways to work around that, but if you dont spread guns to the max, only a part of your unit will shoot.

3. Spears. If spears are in low ranks, cav can push trough it! So if you want to actual block/stop a cav, you need at least 3 rows.
I sometimes can manage it with 2 rows, but thats maybe just random or luck or the cav didnt got a real good charge goin.

3.1. It looks like, as if you need just the "counter" of having 3 ranks in that unit. So you can still spread it as much as possible and have just a few mens standing in the 3rd line. I didnt tested this intensively, maybe someone has better tests done and can publish it here.

4. Since flanking and rearing means next to nothing, the game is more about fatigue. Fatigue is one big way to effect moral.
Now imagine, you send in some cheap spears and hold up more samurais. This spears you want to put into 1-2 rows and spread em max.
You can now shoot into your cheap units, kill many with friendly fire, but kill a lot more of the valuable units of the enemy.

5. shock units. Units you want to catch something in unit vs unit i put myself on more rows, simply as a spread unit will get stuck left and right into other units.

6. Cav. We couldnt see any real effect of using single line or many line concerning unit vs unit.
If you move somewhere in and get shoot, than look at point 1.
Cav vs. cav is pretty random, charging a standing cav means mostly a loss for the guy who is charging ( its a bug, you should think, that the one who rush a standing cav will win clearly). If i want to maneuver with a unit, i put it on more ranks, if i use it for a direct attack, i get it down to low ranks.


I hope that helps a bit.

[Kocmoc]

My theory: making a unit deep in ranks reduces its frontage ie the number of men that are actually fighting as opposed to waiting to 'step in' (wll as long as the formation holds anyway).
Less men fighting means less casualties caused, but also less casualties received.

Therefore, I try to keep good offensive troops who should cause maximum casualties (like no-dachi) in a wide frontage, say 3-4 ranks deep, so many actualyl get to swing their swords and kill. More defensively oriented troops like Naginata and Yari whose task is not so much to kill the enemy as to hold them in place while others kill them, I deploy in deeper formations.
Nothing but the old 'hammer and anvil' really.

That said, I base this purely on 'real world expectations', I'm not sure what all the actual game mechanics are. It would be logical for deep formations to gain some sort of morale bonus for instance, but I dont really know if that is the case. Perhaps someone from CA can give us a hint?

Its not like this. If you zoom in, you can see, that all people in a unit get into the fight, its not working like a phalanx, where only the front is "working".
The mens in the units get all mixed up, you see sometimes that there are people a little bit back, who need a bit longer to get into fight.

Also, if you move into a unit with (example) 5 ranks, while having just 1 rank, you see the effect of your mens moving further on the left and the right side,
than turn at some point and kinda circle the enemy unit. It doesnt seems to have any advance, its just the engine who let the mens walk like this.
In the end, every men try to get into the fight.

[Zarky]

4. Since flanking and rearing means next to nothing, the game is more about fatigue. Fatigue is one big way to effect moral.
Now imagine, you send in some cheap spears and hold up more samurais. This spears you want to put into 1-2 rows and spread em max.
You can now shoot into your cheap units, kill many with friendly fire, but kill a lot more of the valuable units of the enemy.


Actually it matters quite a bit, I believe it was when calculating charge effectiveness if you charge from flank, enemy can only use half of their melee defense stat while charging from the rear you're only facing enemy armor.
I hope someone can confirm this.

[Tempiic]

I hope that helps a bit.

Yes quite a bit Kocmoc. Thanks! :)

[al Roumi]

Actually it matters quite a bit, I believe it was when calculating charge effectiveness if you charge from flank, enemy can only use half of their melee defense stat while charging from the rear you're only facing enemy armor.
I hope someone can confirm this.

I think that (or something similar) certainly used to be the case with MTW2. Probably didn't make much sense in most of ETW as there were few a armoured units but something similar must be at play in TWS2.