What's going on in London?

[edyzmedieval]

:inquisitive:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12871357


It is estimated more than 250,000 people from across Britain have taken part in a demonstration in central London against government spending cuts.

The march and rally, organised by the TUC, have been largely peaceful, but a separate group of several hundred people has attacked shops and businesses in the West End.

The BBC's Home Affairs correspondent Tom Symonds reports.

[InsaneApache]

Where? That toilet called 'our capital', they can keep it.

A boil on the backside of England.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Where? That toilet called 'our capital', they can keep it.

A boil on the backside of England.

+1

Pfft, they think that's a riot? We'll show them how its done north of the border...

[InsaneApache]

What these pricks really want is for you and me to pay for their pensions and empire building.

[Brenus]

Or perhaps they want taxe payers money not going to the Rich or to War and use for helping poors, old or others in need...
But I understand from the conserva-thieves point of view that would be a waste of money.

But be free to prefer to give your money to the one who don't need it and to believe it is all Brown's fault.

[PershsNhpios]

Institute a No-Fly Zone (TM) and send in the Marines! Hooah!

[Fragony]

Where? That toilet called 'our capital', they can keep it.

A boil on the backside of England.

Ya. London is a :daisy:. As for the rest it's normal that bored rich kids break other people's stuff

[rory_20_uk]

Like spoilt children, they didn't complain when the money was being spent - under Labour - by both the government and the Eeeevil Bankers. No, they accepted their pay rises and increase in perks without comment. Where was the money coming from? Does it matter?

Now the spoilt children have run out of money and think that this is not fair as... money should be infinite, right? The best way to complain about spending cutbacks is to waste a vast amount of money on protests in London and making a big bill for policing the event.

Spending on the elderly? Don't make me laugh. They want spending on themselves who are the only gorup "in need" they really care about:

GPs having to work to 65? Already complaints at having to work for the same length as others.
Police paid a hell of a lot more than Firemen / nurses / teachers? Police union want to compare to Lawyers and Doctors, not to soldiers who are in more danger and earn less.

That they don't even see the hipocracy in accepting years of a budget deficit in boom years and only post hoc making a fuss only goes to show either how selfish or how blinkered these lot are.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

As if they ever worked a day in their life, activists are the same everywhere, they have nothing to worry about daddy has the $$$ to pay for whatever.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Or perhaps they want taxe payers money not going to the Rich or to War and use for helping poors, old or others in need...
But I understand from the conserva-thieves point of view that would be a waste of money.

But be free to prefer to give your money to the one who don't need it and to believe it is all Brown's fault.

"The rich" already make a net contribution to the treasury, "the poor" don't. As to "war", that is a truly tiny proportion of the budget compared the welfare, even after IDS cut it.

I'd put money on the troublemakers all being upper-middle class students, or anarchists reliving their "glory days".

[InsaneApache]

Lets get this straight, anarchists do not call for more government. Quite the opposite. I think you mean those lovely, fluffy, nice but dim, socialists.

[Boohugh]

250,000 people too stupid to understand we're broke or don't understand the meaning of broke because they've grown up on Labour handouts for the past 14 years. Because of them and their attitude the savings I've been trying to build up over the years for stuff like a house deposit are steadily becoming worthless - I find it utterly incomprehensible how people don't understand that if spending > income you can't keep buying whatever you want, both at a personal and national level. /rant!

[Louis VI the Fat]

:cheerleader: Go protesters! :cheerleader:


Possibly half a million travelled all the way to London to show that the British people will not surrender to the plunder by their City overlords.

The British middle class is too well established to let the UK be turned into Russia, a country with two classes: mobster-politico-billionaires, and the desolate poor.


If the budget can't be balanced, then reinstate taxes for corporations and those that profit from doing business in Britain. The middle class has been sucked dry enough, and can tolerate neither heavier taxation nor more detrioration of services. A working Briton has a right to functioning public transport and hospitals just as much as his European neighbours do.

[Brenus]

“"The rich" already make a net contribution to the treasury, "the poor" don't. As to "war", that is a truly tiny proportion of the budget compared the welfare, even after IDS cut it.” Ah, I am always happy to see that some still believe in this fairy tale…

The Rich evade taxes thanks to laws tailored for them by their cousins, friend, relatives and families in power.
The “poor” pays more taxes (as VIT) in proportion on what they earn.

And the poor provide more soldiers than the Rich. Why always thinking money and not “Honneur et Patrie”?

And in the UK only Ireland could compare about the lowest taxes for the banksters and affiliates.
And this Chancellor will even cut their taxes even lower.

War is surely a tiny proportion of the budget. But if your compare defence and Welfare…
Then if your ideal for your Grandparents is for them to work in a Mc Donald… My idea for mine is/was for them to enjoy as much as possible the years to come…
But hey, perhaps to sweep between two shifts in a factory is your idea of a good life for 70 years old…

All theses amounts are nothing compared to the Tax Evasion that ALL governments in UK failed to address.

Perhaps this march is the start of a Tunisian Revolution in this country by people sick of the MP expenses scandals, greedy Banksters with indecent bonuses earned on frauds, sick of these Governments strong with the weak but weak with the strong, fed-up of the cuts against every body except them and their pals in the City.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“"The rich" already make a net contribution to the treasury, "the poor" don't. As to "war", that is a truly tiny proportion of the budget compared the welfare, even after IDS cut it.” Ah, I am always happy to see that some still believe in this fairy tale…

The Rich evade taxes thanks to laws tailored for them by their cousins, friend, relatives and families in power.
The “poor” pays more taxes (as VIT) in proportion on what they earn.

And the poor provide more soldiers than the Rich. Why always thinking money and not “Honneur et Patrie”?

And in the UK only Ireland could compare about the lowest taxes for the banksters and affiliates.
And this Chancellor will even cut their taxes even lower.

War is surely a tiny proportion of the budget. But if your compare defence and Welfare…
Then if your ideal for your Grandparents is for them to work in a Mc Donald… My idea for mine is/was for them to enjoy as much as possible the years to come…
But hey, perhaps to sweep between two shifts in a factory is your idea of a good life for 70 years old…

All theses amounts are nothing compared to the Tax Evasion that ALL governments in UK failed to address.

Perhaps this march is the start of a Tunisian Revolution in this country by people sick of the MP expenses scandals, greedy Banksters with indecent bonuses earned on frauds, sick of these Governments strong with the weak but weak with the strong, fed-up of the cuts against every body except them and their pals in the City.

Oh come on.

Both my grandparents are retired, and they live reasonably comfortably - neither has ever been remotely wealthy. Also, the rich DO make a net contribution, the poor do not. The rich also pay a higher proportion of their earnings as income tax, as NI and as VAT because many essentially are VAT free.

So stop with the bleeding heart already.

Consider this: all the people not curently working because their place of work is wrecked, yeah those thugs REALLY helped the poor.

[Jaguara]

Also, the rich DO make a net contribution, the poor do not. The rich also pay a higher proportion of their earnings as income tax, as NI and as VAT because many essentially are VAT free.

While I would agree in regards to the Upper Middle Class, but when you say "Rich", most people think of the Upper class. On paper, their tax brackets should be higher, however the ultra-rich are often able to take advantages of loop-holes and write-offs that are not feasible for people with less than a few million in assets. The end result is that they end up paying little to no tax in proportion to their income.

In the US & Canada - and I believe also in the UK, the top 1% income earners actually pay little to no income tax. Corporate taxes also usually hit mostly small-medium size businesses, as again, the top 1% corporations often pay very little or no taxes (I just saw a report stating that GE - reportedly the largest company in the US - paid no income tax in the US in the last few years, along with a list of other large and profitable companies)

The middle class carries the burden.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The middle class carries the burden.

QFT.

[Brenus]

“Consider this: all the people not curently working because their place of work is wrecked, yeah those thugs REALLY helped the poor.”
So, you loose your job so you are a thug. Interesting.
Do you have more of this 19th Century Victorian Aristocratic Morality?
But the ones paying no taxes because they are rich enough to put their money in offshore bank account are the nice hard working gentlemen and Ladies…

[Crazed Rabbit]

“Consider this: all the people not curently working because their place of work is wrecked, yeah those thugs REALLY helped the poor.”
So, you loose your job so you are a thug. Interesting.

No, you're (the anarchist) a thug because you break other people's property for your own pleasure.


In the US & Canada - and I believe also in the UK, the top 1% income earners actually pay little to no income tax. Corporate taxes also usually hit mostly small-medium size businesses, as again, the top 1% corporations often pay very little or no taxes (I just saw a report stating that GE - reportedly the largest company in the US - paid no income tax in the US in the last few years, along with a list of other large and profitable companies)


Why we should have a flat tax and no exemptions.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

“Consider this: all the people not curently working because their place of work is wrecked, yeah those thugs REALLY helped the poor.”
I think 'thugs' refers to the rioters. The usual suspects seized upon the protest to destroy some stuff. This means some people may not be able to perform their usual work today.

This 'grave attack on Britain's poor by Saturdays thugs' consists of a handful of people spending today cleaning up their workplace. :zzz:


Possibly half a million hard working Britons - nurses, police officers, private business owners - travelled all the way down to London to let themselves be heard. It is not relevant to focus on the usual 2000 anarchists / squatters going through their weekly routine of trashing stuff. No more than one dismisses this weekend football events by pointing out the usual hooligan nonsense. Millions had great fun just watching a game.

[Strike For The South]

I would eat trash if Louis told me how the chef prepared it.

5 years later and I still get a kick out of the mans penmanship

[Jaguara]

Why we should have a flat tax and no exemptions.


I wish it were so as well. Imagine how simple your tax filings would be...and much more fair. Ah but there is the kicker...the top 1% don't want a fair system, and what about the 65 billion dollar tax preparation industry? What about all those jobs!!! (Talk about a useless "industry", if you ask me)

Still, we can dream.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think 'thugs' refers to the rioters. The usual suspects seized upon the protest to destroy some stuff. This means some people may not be able to perform their usual work today.

This 'grave attack on Britain's poor by Saturdays thugs' consists of a handful of people spending today cleaning up their workplace. :zzz:

There is fire damage and broken windows, that will take several days to repair and some people on minimum wage could be out of pocket £100-150 (40-60% of paycheck).

So don't give me that, "they'll just clean it up" nonsense. We had someone set fire to Marks and Spencer's in Exeter, it was out of action for nearly two weeks because of the smoke damage.

[Furunculus]

What these pricks really want is for you and me to pay for their pensions and empire building.

agreed, these economic illiterates just don't understand that even with the election deficit plans from all three parties we are still on a trajectory to see a national debt of 400% of GDP by 2040.

that will require 27% of government revenue annualy to service the debt-interest. money that might otherwise be spent on worthy social causes such as gender awareness officers.......


http://www.bis.org/publ/work300.pdf

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/bank-international-settlements-sees-us-debtgdp-over-400-2040


In the US & Canada - and I believe also in the UK, the top 1% income earners actually pay little to no income tax.

Then we should ditch the fifty% income tax band, as the last time we brought down rates/abolished higher tiers the top 1% actually generated MORE revenue for the exchequer:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article7031468.ece


By contrast, in his 1988 Budget, Nigel Lawson cut the top rate of income tax to 40p in the pound. And it raised more tax.

More to the point, Labour strategists might note, it raised more from the top paid in society. In 1978-79, after Mr Healey’s top rate of 83 per cent, the highest-earning 1 per cent of the population paid 11 per cent of all income tax taken in by the Treasury. After Mr Lawson’s cut in the top rate to 40 per cent, the top 1 per cent of earners now pay an estimated 24.1 per cent of all income tax.

There’s more. In the late 1970s the top 5 per cent of earners paid 24 per cent of all income tax, but now they pay 43.1 per cent. In the late 1970s the top 10 per cent of earners paid 35 per cent of all income tax, but now pay 53.3 per cent.

The message is simple — the lower the top rate of income tax, the less people will try to dodge it and the more money the Treasury raises.

same goes for business taxation:

http://aleksandreia.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/income-tax-cuts-do-not-reduce-income-tax-revenues/

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

What these pricks really want is for you and me to pay for their pensions and empire building.

:yes:


Or perhaps they want taxe payers money not going to the Rich or to War and use for helping poors, old or others in need...
But I understand from the conserva-thieves point of view that would be a waste of money.

But be free to prefer to give your money to the one who don't need it and to believe it is all Brown's fault.

Or maybe start defending your own nation and stop spending money on stupid things, oh, like the Royal wedding? :juggle2:


As if they ever worked a day in their life, activists are the same everywhere, they have nothing to worry about daddy has the $$$ to pay for whatever.

My opinion of liberals are quite low, especially foriegn liberals due to the fact they think they know best yet like you said, they so rich they never have to work a day in their spolied lives.

Wonder how your Europeans can live in such a idiotic continent.:help:

[al Roumi]

Ugh, sometimes the Org really looks like a seeping pore of reactionary chauvinists.

I went to the rally on saturday, I didn't go on the march. I watched people file into Hyde park for an hour or so, saw a bunch of teenage "anarchists" run off -as I later found out, to watch/partake in the sack of Fortnum and Mason. Marching I saw nurses, teachers, physiotherapists, lecturers as well as the general public sector unionists -and this was only from their banners.

I'm in a strange situation caught between a desire to show support for public services and the patent lack of a political alternative to these cuts. Even the last Tory government used a 1:1 ratio of taxation to cuts to balance the national budget, where are the taxes in Osbourne's equation? Probably at about 1:4... You don't expect the Tories to care about people who can't afford to go private, but that is at least meant to be Labour's bread and butter. The Labour party is failing to stand up and provide an alternative.

As to the "Anarchists", they are children who have no right to carry a flag carried for real causes in history. 200 people were arrested out of up to 400,000 attending the rally, yet these idiots get the headlines -undermining the message of the massively overwhelming majority.

And then the dregs of society on here carp about their own family being comfortable when clearly, if they weren't -or more importantly they could see past their own navel, they might give a solitary crap.

[gaelic cowboy]

agreed, these economic illiterates just don't understand that even with the election deficit plans from all three parties we are still on a trajectory to see a national debt of 400% of GDP by 2040.

While one cant argue with the the finely constructed PDF to be honest I have this nagging feeling the I.B.S. are pulling a bit of Disco Stu here "Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continues... AAY!"

Surely by 2040 the economy will have grown again plus wont inflation have eaten the debt to some extent.

[Slyspy]

According to the BBC only 201 people were arrested in connection with the protests at the weekend, and 149 of those were charged. 138 of these were for aggravated trespass, members of the organisation which occupied Fortnum and Mason. Oh no!

[lars573]

Why we should have a flat tax and no exemptions.

CR
You realize that your mythic flat tax no exeption cure all will just hammer the poor hard for a modest gain in revenue from the high earners.

[Jaguara]

You realize that your mythic flat tax no exeption cure all will just hammer the poor hard for a modest gain in revenue from the high earners.

Usually when talking about this sort of thing, there are other measures in place to help the poor. Just like with the GST, they came out with the GST rebate for low income households.

The main thing here would be simplification of the tax system, which would save billions of dollars - both to taxpayers who have been paying to have their taxes done by professionals and also for Governments which have huge audit teams to wade through the selected returns.

The problem is that the ultra-rich will still avoid paying taxes, as they will just legally move to some country which will not tax them as much (even if they never actually leave the US/Canada).

So the point is, it is essentially an idealist's dream. Still, even then, I think it is better than the convoluted, tangled mess we have right now.

[Furunculus]

While one cant argue with the the finely constructed PDF to be honest I have this nagging feeling the I.B.S. are pulling a bit of Disco Stu here "Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continues... AAY!"

Surely by 2040 the economy will have grown again plus wont inflation have eaten the debt to some extent.

true it is only a projection, but it is based on the published deficit reduction plans, what might things be like with McBroon still at the helm, with his cyclops vision myopically fixed somewhere other than the approaching iceberg!


Ugh, sometimes the Org really looks like a seeping pore of reactionary chauvinists.

I went to the rally on saturday, I didn't go on the march. I watched people file into Hyde park for an hour or so, saw a bunch of teenage "anarchists" run off -as I later found out, to watch/partake in the sack of and Fortnum and Mason. Marching I saw nurses, teachers, physiotherapists, lecturers as well as the general public sector unionists -and this was only from their banners.

I'm in a strange situation caught between a desire to show support for public services and the patent lack of a political alternative to these cuts. Even the last Tory government used a 1:1 ratio of taxation to cuts to balance the national budget, where are the taxes in Osbourne's equation? Probably at about 1:4... You don't expect the Tories to care about people who can't afford to go private, but that is at least meant to be Labour's bread and butter. The Labour party is failing to stand up and provide an alternative.

As to the "Anarchists", they are children who have no right to carry a flag carried for real causes in history. 200 people were arrested out of up to 400,000 attending the rally, yet these idiots get the headlines -undermining the message of the massively overwhelming majority.

And then the dregs of society on here carp about their own family being comfortable when clearly, if they weren't -or more importantly they could see past their own navel, they might give a solitary crap.

and yet spending is rising in cash terms, which even in real terms will only be a ~5% cut by 2015.......

[Brenus]

“Or maybe start defending your own nation and stop spending money on stupid things, oh, like the Royal wedding?” I’ll do that…

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ugh, sometimes the Org really looks like a seeping pore of reactionary chauvinists.

I went to the rally on saturday, I didn't go on the march. I watched people file into Hyde park for an hour or so, saw a bunch of teenage "anarchists" run off -as I later found out, to watch/partake in the sack of Fortnum and Mason. Marching I saw nurses, teachers, physiotherapists, lecturers as well as the general public sector unionists -and this was only from their banners.

I'm in a strange situation caught between a desire to show support for public services and the patent lack of a political alternative to these cuts. Even the last Tory government used a 1:1 ratio of taxation to cuts to balance the national budget, where are the taxes in Osbourne's equation? Probably at about 1:4... You don't expect the Tories to care about people who can't afford to go private, but that is at least meant to be Labour's bread and butter. The Labour party is failing to stand up and provide an alternative.

As to the "Anarchists", they are children who have no right to carry a flag carried for real causes in history. 200 people were arrested out of up to 400,000 attending the rally, yet these idiots get the headlines -undermining the message of the massively overwhelming majority.

And then the dregs of society on here carp about their own family being comfortable when clearly, if they weren't -or more importantly they could see past their own navel, they might give a solitary crap.

Um, totally unsubstantiated ad hominem?

"We" are not the dregs of society, nor are we (so far as I am aware) chauvanists.

The cupboard is bare, there is no money, we cannot increase spending. You just have to live with it. I work in Higher Education, I'm not exactly thrilled about the fees rises because I start teaching next year and, frankly, I'm worried about the effect the fees will have on the mentality of the students and how they will create unrealistic expectations we just can't meet.

Labour wasted a lot of money on pointless projects and bad ideas, raising the number of people going to university being a case in point. They also threatened to cut bu 20% going into the election, where the Coalition cut by 19% when actually in power.

So.... reactionary my foot. Fiscal responsibility is becoming the new orthodoxy, why it was ever anything else is beyond me.

[Furunculus]

"We" are not the dregs of society, nor are we (so far as I am aware) chauvanists.

hah! that's nothing, i have been called the following in this forum: "xenophobe and hyper-nationalist racist with militaristic, populist, and autarkic tendencies"

mostly by Louis... :beatnik2:




:clown:

[Brenus]

“Fiscal responsibility is becoming the new orthodoxy,”
Is it? When the revenue from Speculation and Finances are less taxed than the ones from Production? When taxes on individual workers increase but the ones on Banks decrease?
I see here a clear ideological plan from the conserva-thieves.
They want the good old time without Unions and Daily Workers (re-labelled Self-Employed) was the rules.
It is not about deficit or budget balance.
It is about putting back the crowd at it place, right down in the gutters. And if they are nice, polite, eyes down and hat in hand when spoken to and good crowd then the Big Society and some Charities will give them some rewards but only to the deserving ones…
Naughty poor have to remember whose in charge.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Fiscal responsibility is becoming the new orthodoxy,”
Is it? When the revenue from Speculation and Finances are less taxed than the ones from Production? When taxes on individual workers increase but the ones on Banks decrease?
I see here a clear ideological plan from the conserva-thieves.
They want the good old time without Unions and Daily Workers (re-labelled Self-Employed) was the rules.
It is not about deficit or budget balance.
It is about putting back the crowd at it place, right down in the gutters. And if they are nice, polite, eyes down and hat in hand when spoken to and good crowd then the Big Society and some Charities will give them some rewards but only to the deserving ones…
Naughty poor have to remember whose in charge.

...because Conservatives are evil and Liberals are good, yes?

Damn Conserv-thieves!

Replace with "foriegn-thieves" and not the intellectual bankruptcy.

Conservatives are not evil, Brenus, they are ordinary people, not a mixture of Darth Vader and Sauron.

[Sarmatian]

Bah, this is all boring. When's the intervention starting? Rioting people, regime used the police and cracked down on its own people. So sad...

[InsaneApache]

Every time Labour get into power they :daisy: up the economy. Then the other lot come along and have to clean up the mess. I got this very early on. As a working class guy I realised that the main victims of the Labour party are the poor and disadvantaged. I think they do it on purpose.

The Labour party are like a drunken uncle who love to throw money about, because they can.

The Torys are like a strict step-parent who come along after the partys over and make you clean up the mess you made.

Labour, the enemy of the poor and vulnerable. Still I 'spose each generation is bound to find out how evil and nasty the Labour party is. Anyone who votes for them needs their bumps feeling.

*and breathe*

[Furunculus]

"Every time Labour get into power they :daisy: up the economy."

It's their professional occupation, and they are skilled practitioners of the trade!

[al Roumi]

Yeah cos like labour engineered the global financial crisis innit blood.

[rory_20_uk]

As has frequently been said here and elsewhere, the crash merely stressed the system. Previously it was subsisting on cheap borrowing with no plans to pay the money back, but during a bubble no one thinks that it will ever end. Then the crash happened and countries with massive spending with no revenue have imploded or been bailed out, others are on their way.

Labour did not cause the crisis, but they managed to split oversight from the bank of England which certainly helped.

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

Yeah cos like labour engineered the global financial crisis innit blood.

as rory has already said; bad things happen, and Labour's epic hubris was to believe they had ended the cycle of boom-n-bust, therefore they could keep interests rates artificially low in perpetuity and engage in endless deficit spending.

so no, they didn't cause the crisis, but they were responsible for failing to be able to cope with the economic crisis, events that will ALWAYS happen.

[al Roumi]

There was me thinking they were all for spending their way out of the crash, although you could of course argue that such an approach, followed by notably second rate economies like the US, is deeply wrong.

Don't get me started on Brown or the boom/bust hubris, but then neither have the Tories (Norman Lamont?) been exempt from such catastrophes...

Stop peddling the cluedo-like nonsense that it was labour "wot done it" in the library with a (public spending) hammer.

[InsaneApache]

Yeah cos like labour engineered the global financial crisis innit blood.

oh dear, where to start? :inquisitive:

[al Roumi]

oh dear, where to start? :inquisitive:

Pitchforks.

[InsaneApache]

Pitchforks.

I think we can do better than that.

Who took financial control from the Bank of England and gave it to the FSA?

Who sold off the nations gold reserve when the price of gold was at it's lowest?

Who flagged up such a sale months before, thus depressing the market further?

Who decided to spend 25% more than was raised in tax receipts?

Who decided to raise the upper band of taxation to 50%, in spite of the fact that doing so would again lower tax revenue?

Who decided to knee the poorest in the balls by doubling their tax threshold?

How's that for starters?

[Meneldil]

It's about time the brits take the streets to show banksters and traders that things can't keep going that way.

What is really ridiculous though is the wave of "lolz those anarchists burnt stuff and get money from their daddies". Because obviously, all the protesters were
a - anarchists and rioters
b - spoiled kids.

Maybe if you keep singing it, you'll change reality.

[gaelic cowboy]

Who took financial control from the Bank of England and gave it to the FSA?



I would disagree with that being wrong, often central banks can have a problem in that there supposed to watch systemic risk AND regulate the products they sell like mortgages etc etc. Sometimes central banks can forget the consumer interest in the defence of the overall banking interest, hiving off various types of regulation can be a good idea as then the central bank is purely about systemic risk.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There was me thinking they were all for spending their way out of the crash, although you could of course argue that such an approach, followed by notably second rate economies like the US, is deeply wrong.

Labour are, it would not be a terrible idea if we had spare money - we don't.


Don't get me started on Brown or the boom/bust hubris, but then neither have the Tories (Norman Lamont?) been exempt from such catastrophes...

They also recovered from it in time for Labour to take office. Also, 1992 was in large part a targeted "bet" by traders to force London to abandon the ERM (is that the thing, the one from Europe?)


Stop peddling the cluedo-like nonsense that it was labour "wot done it" in the library with a (public spending) hammer.

Stop peddling the "Tories are out to get you" nonsese first, it's silier (this goes to all posters.)

[Brenus]

“because Conservatives are evil and Liberals are good, yes?” They are the SAME. Don’t you see it?

”Replace with "foriegn-thieves" and not the intellectual bankruptcy.” What Foreign Thieves? The one who bought your Football Clubs, or your Super Markets?

”Conservatives are not evil, Brenus, they are ordinary people, not a mixture of Darth Vader and Sauron.”
I speak of politic not about people. Conservatives are probably nice in private life, educated and polite. I worked with some of them, and was always welcome in their home… But that is not the point. Their politic is to save their money and even to get more if possible. They have a genuine vision of society completed twisted by their Social Class. I had one of them explaining me that only the person trained (meaning them, of course) for power should have access to power as the illiterates have no clues about problems… Or the important persons should have priority for dentist or medical treatment, as their time is more valuable than the one of the workers…

And can I remind you that Dark Vador at the start thinks he can use the Force for the better good in killing the badies before it goes wrong. Saruman thinks he can fight the dark side from inside and with it own weapons, without seeing he will loose the reasons to fight the Dark Side.
I’ll give you Sauron is lost for Humanity…

Thanks to the blog from Flore Vasseur in the French weekly Mariane 2, I am able to understand why they are none millionaire supporting Tories
They are parts of a branch of the human species known as the Homo-Valetus (from the French passed in English Valet) or Homo-Larbinus (from the French Larbin).
He imagines he shares the values of the class who exploits him because he lives in the same environment. He is sure he is in the right side of the barricade. He is for taxes exemption even if he will never benefit of it, as he is not rich enough. Like a slave protecting his master with his body against the attacks of his class, the Homo-Valetus identifies himself with his master in order to reach a acceptable mental balance that will allowed him to live in accepting his subordination.
In a perfectly accepted mental defence, the Homo-Valetus become even more certain and he suffers from a pathologic behaviour that leads him to systematically defend the wealthiest classes against the class he comes from. The Homo-Larbinus has no political conscience. He works with the ones who exploit him to bring on him their kindness and, hopefully, rewards.

For the French speaking, youtube “Le syndome du Larbin”, by Juliendusud2, funny…

[rory_20_uk]

The reality is that prisoners have complained when the que for the dentist increased to 6 weeks. I know, it is terribly unfair that convicted criminals should have to wait for treatment.

I do agree that for power to be solely concentrated in those who feel it is their destiny to be leaders is bad - and the only thing worse is to give anything resembling power to those like Prescott who exist only to grab as much as they can at the expense of everything else.

Most wealthy have private health insurance so there is no real problem with them getting treated first. They pay for the NHS and then choose not to use it. My old consultant said that our job as doctors was to advocate those who no one else would be an advocate for. So, others pay and others have to then favour them in hospitel at the expense of others as well.

And the reality is that if someone works for £80k a year and can not work, their earnings and indeed the taxes accrued will be lower. So there is less money for everyone. Same goes for fixing a plumber's hands as it is better for all if s/he was working rather than wating for treatment. I am sure we could spend all money on drug and alcohol rehab facilities but the return on investment would be appalling; replacing every elderly person's hip as a priority would mean that there would be a lot less money for others as an individual's quality of life can not be taxed.

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

Stop peddling the "Tories are out to get you" nonsese first, it's silier (this goes to all posters.)

agreed. it was, quite simply, labour who spent the economy into a corner from which we could not escape when 'stuff' happened.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

”Conservatives are not evil, Brenus, they are ordinary people, not a mixture of Darth Vader and Sauron.”
I speak of politic not about people. Conservatives are probably nice in private life, educated and polite. I worked with some of them, and was always welcome in their home… But that is not the point. Their politic is to save their money and even to get more if possible. They have a genuine vision of society completed twisted by their Social Class. I had one of them explaining me that only the person trained (meaning them, of course) for power should have access to power as the illiterates have no clues about problems… Or the important persons should have priority for dentist or medical treatment, as their time is more valuable than the one of the workers…

That's a pretty big generalisation. Even with those types of Conservatives (I am more than happy to admit they exist) you have completely missed the point. The Conservative elitist is a Patrician, not a Capitalist, he gains power so that he might better serve his country - the connection with money is completely false, the sort of person you are talking about has his wealth in land and he has tenants to protect.

What you are doing is conflating Thatcherism and Toryism, they are not the same thing. Thatcher was a complete aberation in terms of Conservativism, she completely rejected the concept of shared civic responsibility in the community!

[al Roumi]

I only resent all the labour bashing when it's so apparently blind to the failings of other parties, particularly the Tories. All your mud slinging requires is an armoury of elephantine memories and then it'll be like the Somme.


agreed. it was, quite simply, labour who spent the economy into a corner from which we could not escape when 'stuff' happened.

And this is spin, you know it but it suits you because you like the ideology. It's the Tory facade to cover for cuts which need not be as harsh as they are.

[Furunculus]

i prefer to think of it as reality, whatever.

[gaelic cowboy]

What you are doing is conflating Thatcherism and Toryism, they are not the same thing. Thatcher was a complete aberation in terms of Conservativism, she completely rejected the concept of shared civic responsibility in the community!

While your right about the differ between Thatcherism and Toryism I would say that any return to Toryism is a dead end.

The main economic pre-occupation of a Tory would be to maintain value of various assets, in order to do this interest rates must and would have to be high to ensure these valuations, that is not going to be done anytime soon.

[Subotan]

I wonder if the fact that I'm writing articles for my university's Labour Club journal (Look Left) and busy climbing the hierarchy increases or reduces my authority to comment in this thread.

[rory_20_uk]

I wonder if the fact that I'm writing articles for my university's Labour Club journal (Look Left) and busy climbing the hierarchy increases or reduces my authority to comment in this thread.

Concentrate on the phrases "lessons learned", "moving foward", "listening to the voters" and of course "investing in our future". For the love of god don't get bogged down in detail or finances. Concentrate on climbing the greasy pole of shut in election lists and try to get over the massive setback you'll have if you've not done PPE at Oxford - parties of the people don't need to be from the people.

~:smoking:

[Subotan]

Concentrate on the phrases "lessons learned", "moving foward", "listening to the voters" and of course "investing in our future". For the love of god don't get bogged down in detail or finances
Mhm, nothing like a detailed analysis of stats to produce a dreary article! I'm going to be writing it on the monarchy actually, and specifically why Labour needs it.


Concentrate on climbing the greasy pole of shut in election lists and try to get over the massive setback you'll have if you've not done PPE at Oxford - parties of the people don't need to be from the people
Aha, I'm way ahead of you - that's what I'm currently reading :smash: That said, I'm far too insecurely Northern to forget my roots, so hopefully I won't turn out like the run of the mill slimy PPE tosser that exists in the public imagination (And not without good reason, I might add)

[Furunculus]

I'm going to be writing it on the monarchy actually, and specifically why Labour needs it.
i'd be curious to read it.


Concentrate on the phrases "lessons learned", "moving foward", "listening to the voters" and of course "investing in our future". For the love of god don't get bogged down in detail or finances.

concentrate on these ruminations of these people:

Lord Glasman (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12759902)

D Miliband (http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/03/centre-parties-social)

Jon Cruddas and Jonathan Rutherford (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/8272685/Alan-Johnson-resignation-Labour-needs-to-rediscover-the-values-and-virtues-of-England.html)

Why?

John McTernan (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/johnmcternan1/100072529/why-tory-backbenchers-are-keeping-a-close-eye-on-douglas-alexander/)

Alexander lucidly exposed the Coalition’s hidden strategy to reshape British politics. Over time, he argued, Nick Clegg and his Lib Dem colleagues will prosecute the argument that they are the only effective vehicle to deliver Centre-left policies. The wins they have over the Tories will be the evidence. At the same time David Cameron will aim to cement his hold on the Centre-right vote. Their shared objective? Marginalising the Labour Party.

Anything else is electoral suicide!

[al Roumi]

my authority to comment in this thread.

I wasn't aware that people were at all obliged to know what they are talking about before posting here, there or anywhere on the internets.

[Furunculus]

john redwood has joined the fray on tax rates:

http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2011/03/31/if-you-want-to-tax-the-rich-more-cut-the-rates/