Most dominant infantry in Europe

[Geticus]

What is the most dominant infantry in Europe? By that I mean, not what infantry wins cohort vs. cohort the most, its pretty much the gaesatae or Chaonian Agema/Silvershields for the most elite single cohort. But I am curious what do people think is the most powerful single infantry unit type in the macro scale for conquering all Europe and defending a dominion. Cost effectiveness vs. eliteness, recruitment area, ease of recruitment, everything has to be taken into account.

Myself I play mostly Eurobarbs, mainly Aedui, Arverni, Casse, Sweboz, and Getai, as well as KH. Out of all these I think there are a few units that stand out as the dominant, most effective infantry for these factions:

Aedui/Arverni- northern Gallic swordsmen, celtic slinger
Casse- Belgae Swordsmen, celtic slinger
Sweboz- Jugunthiz skirmisher, medjininkas archer-spearmen
Getai- Thraikian peltast, Dacian skirmisher
KH- Cretan archer, hoplitai haploi

Out of all these units, I am tending to think that the one that, played right, is the most overpowering, is the German Jugunthiz skirmisher. The reason for this is that they only require a level one MIC, which is already present in most cities when you conquer them. And they can be recruited in large numbers with +2 chevrons easily, and ultimately with 4 chevrons which makes them extremely lethal and nearly unbreakable. And they are very cheap. With fast moving, and very good stamina, they are excellent skirmishers and good at tiring out the enemy lines and forcing the enemy to charge at a run. Enemy infantry cannot run them down, and enemy cavalry get crushed by their melee spears. In this they excel Dacian skirmishers, another of my favorites, since the Jugunthiz skirmisher is cheaper and more effective against cavalry, as well as faster moving. Jugunthiz javelin volleys can kill just about anything on a flank/rear attack. Finally with the increased chevrons they can hold their ground in melee and dish out decent damage. In city defenses their numbers and javelins are lethal from high ground and tend to knock the enemy down to size to where their high morale can win out in the protracted melee. So basically when I look at the macro level, all the factions have their advantages. The Casse have a great economy, the Aedui/Arverni have high quality heavily armored troops in the late game and decent city building, the Getai have versatility and the Thraikian peltasts in the later game. But having played all factions extensively, when I play Sweboz I tend to think that from the very beginning of the game, once the Sweboz capitol grows and can spam out level 2/level 3 Jugunthiz, and then the other cities kick in and can make skirmishers at level 4, it makes for very cheap, versatile, highly effective armies. Once you have 4 or 5 cities that can levy the Jugunthiz with 3 or 4 chevrons, you can spam several armies, they don't even need a general, they don't break much and can pretty well lay Europe to waste.

[fomalhaut]

In terms of just 'playing the game' then yeah the Jugunds are probably the most cost effective in that regard, BUT! it's hard for me to truly have an army constituting of so many kids (relatively speaking). I could only use them as auxilaries or last ditch defense not as the foundation to my empire.

but for me the Jewish Spearmen and Persian Archer/Spearmen are the best. Jewish Spearmen can be recruited by any army with a low level regional barracks, and they truly do make great account of themselves as warriors. 1v1 they aren't as effective as many of the Hellenes in the area, but the Jewish spearmen come in units of 200 rather than 120 or 160 so their numbers make up.

Same goes for the Persian Archer/Spearmen. They have great range, 25 arrows, and are good enough warriors that they greatly help the Jewish spearmen by flanking after their arrows have greatly thinned out the ranks.

[vollorix]

Hm, i´d go with Batacori all the way. They are not that cost effective as Jugundiz, of course, but they are instantly available to any Celtic faction that conqueres Bratosporos/Bagacos, got superior range + 3 javelines, large shields, good morale, and, at least on BI.exe they can make shield wall - a priceless feature if you are outnumbered, or have to fight in towns! Once, i´ve routed 1k German army with only 2 units of Batacori ( on guard mod, without shield wall, since i was playing on RTW.exe back than ) while defending Bagacos. Paired with a couple of Milnaht, and some missile support, Belgian troops rule the Celtic world, the Germans, and can stand their ground against more civilized factions as well. Right now i´ve started a VH/M Casse game and i´m enjoying it a lot due to those troops.
On the other hand, Dacians are the most versatile infantry base barbarian faction, imo. Sure, if you play the Germans and abuse Jugundiz spam a lot, you can win pretty much against any army, especially "barbarian" one ( though, i´d like to see how you are going to defeat all elite phalangitai helenistic army with them :), but this is also valid for HA factions, and Dacians are one, so... if i´d spam Scythian/Dacian HA´s i could even defeat those elites with ease. Another interesting unit would be Dacian Elite Archer - good range, high lethality swords, acceptable armour value ( not against missiles, though ).
All in all, i do not like spamming only one unit in game - it´s the versatility i really like, and playing Sweboz i actually prefer Dugundiz spearmen.

[Ca Putt]

imo it depends on how important you value the aforementioned points. when not regarding reforms probably marian legionaries cut off best eg.

when considering the AoR I would suggest the simple hoplite as it can be trained in many (somewhat scattered) provinces along the mediterranean coast. that and I always have a bad feeling when calling the hoplitai Haploi dominant, brutally effective - yes, dirt cheap - yes, dominating the world - not quite.
that is offcource when planning to conquer all of europe not just the VCs, tho for Celts and Sweboz their own units are faster to come by, as they are comeing from the north towards the coast ;).

[Geticus]

As far as dominance, when I played EB more recently I have been playing games with the 3 Celtic factions, the Sweboz, and Getai, and for me I always start comparing the situation around 255 or 250 BCE. I always play VH campaign, Hard battle difficulty and the Romans usually start levying decent numbers of pedites extraordinarii and Triarii around 260 or so. On autocalc the computer gives ludicrous advantages to high armor units and as a result the Romans tend to steamroll the Celtic cities and push into Massilia, and then spam Gaul itself. So the way I play with Aedui and Arverni, I generally blitz Rome to prevent endless battles against the elites. Seriously- one unit of silver chevron Pedites Extraordinarii will devour an entire Celtic army in autocalc with ease, it is insane.
So by 257 to 255 with a Gallic faction I usually sack Rome, which is worth around 50,000 mnai, and I start to have a pretty good economy. At this point the best forces the Gauls have for them, are IMO Northern Gallic Swordsmen levied from the capitols of Gaul. With a level 4 temple of Teutatis they get +2 chevrons, and that is the best thing I got when playing Gauls, until Time of Soldiers and the advent of Neitos. In comparison, in my experience the Casse can unify Britain and Ireland around 259-257 if I play well, and clear the seas of pirates and invade mainland Europe by sometime around 253 to 250. The best units the Casse can muster, the ones that do the dirty work, survive battles, and keep gaining experience, for me are the Milnaht from the Casse capitol, which levy at +1 chevron. Now about this time, playing as Sweboz, if I really focus on industrializing the capitol (Swebotraust), I can have +3 chevrons (field of games and level 3 temple of Tyr), weaponsmith, and level 3 MIC by the mid 250s. And by this time the Sweboz should have at least one good governor so that population growth at the capitol can support spamming of troops.
So by this time the Gauls or Romans should have resolved the war, the victor is becoming rich, and either the Romans should be pushing into Gaul, or the Gauls should have sacked Rome and have large numbers of 1 or 2 chevron Bataroas. The Casse by around 252 can spam full stacks with large numbers of +1 chevron Belgae Swordsmen and Belgae Spearmen from the Belgae cities if they invade the mainland. In comparison the Germans can spam level 3 and soon level 4 troops, and if they are frugal and use mostly tier one levies, they can have pretty huge numbers. Of all these army composition types, I think the Jugunthiz skirmisher spam is the most powerful, due to their extremely high morale, lethal javelins, and versatility. It seems to me that the Casse with their strong economy, superior governors and city building are the natural spoilers of the northern European coastal area. Whether Romans or Gauls win out in the Gallo-Roman theater of war, the Casse played right should be nearly unstoppable in the English channel area, the Belgae troops are reliable enough and the Casse economy just is too strong. But regardless of what I accomplish when playing as the Celtic factions, by around 255 or so I always have that thought, that by now the Sweboz, if played properly , should be spamming Level 4 levies? What can hold up to a multiple army invasion of Sweboz hordes based around Level 4 Jugundiz spam?

[moonburn]

geticus only way for the casse to clear the sea of pirates is by conquering armorica and their shipyards

[vollorix]

@Geticus: Because of the PE spam, and because of the disadvantage of the barbarian factions, if controlled by AI, i have altered my EDU a lot. But if you simply compare the "autocalc" results, even with the weakend Romans, they will definetly overwhelm the Sweboz controlled by AI. Even on medium campaign difficulty the Romans get insanly rich ( 100k after 10 - 15 years with almost no expansion ), and in the long turms they should be able to break any barbarian resistance, except for the Lusos, of course, with their "ap" attributes, and their mines, once they gain control of Iberia. The strategical AI is no challenge for an insane human style anyway^^

My EDU alterings so far ( BI.exe ):
- halfed the numbers of PE and Triarii, reduced their armour ( -2 ), made PE 2 turns recruitment ( i´d gladly reduce their recruitment pool to Roma only, but i´m no pro in EDB, sadly; also considering to reduce PE numbers to 20 men on normal, since AI still loves to spam them a lot... )
- took away "ap" attribute from all infantry units ( except axemen ), changed the lethality of "kopis" and "falcata" swords to 0.15 ( 0.16 for the elites ), added +1 attack to those units ( still experimenting )
- reduced spear attack value ( -4 ), "light spear" should be enough to counter, but not just slaughter cavalry
- changed stats of Celtic Axemen similar to Eastern Axemen ( low armour (2), 50>40 men unit size, lowered attack their attack -1 ), but haven´t touched Raetians or Astuaians.
- 2 HP for every "unique" unit, even with decent armour, but with no/very low shield value ( Lugians, Thratian Elites, Goidic Elites, Pictone Neitos, British Swordmasters ), higher costs/upkeep for Naked Spearmen ( also took their "command" attribute away - Celtic factions used to spam them too much for my tastings )
- reduced Roman recruitment pool to their factional units, except for cavalry of any kind, and Neitos ( so far i can see, it heavily nerfed Romans, but i have to observe their developement on "VH" campaign difficulty, they still are able to hire mercs, we´ll see )
- 0 turn recruitment for Hastati, Princeps and Triarii ( early and late ), but i´m not quite sure how well the AI can use this gift

The reason for all this was primary my disliking the ahistorical Roman army compositions; and also/therefore my disliking for destroying them way too early in the game ( by me, or the AI ): i mean, the greatest threat in Europe they have become, and i simply march through and kill them, only to prevent them from spamming Triarii + PE armies after 20 years. But i also didn´t want the Romans be destroyed by Lusos ( "ap" nerf ).

Sorry for a bit off topic, but if i´d wanted to blitz&conquer i´d need about 20 years to take the whole Europe, i guess. A prehistorical "Mongol Invasion" of a kind - i don´t like it, actually.

Btw: When playing Casse, my first move is always to take Bratosporus - after a couple of turns in the red your economy is stabile ( and i can spam Batacorii, too :laugh4: ).

[Tyrfingr]

Milhnats and Batacoriis for the win!

[Cute Wolf]

hmm, actually I've once go up against Jugundiz spam as Casse :D

well, not all level 3 or 4 though, the AI still loves the 0 chevroned as well, but yeah, since that was about 200 BC, quite a lot actually had 3 or 4 chevrons

to break them is easy, extremely easy actually, maybe contrary to your tactics, but I use Iasotae + Leuce Epos to counter them, a fullstack of Jugundiz (20 unit full - I use 0 turn recruit) can be taken down simply by a General (made casse General into Kulddargos infantry actually) + 4 Leuce Epos + 2 slingers, just bait them with slingers, and put concentrated cavalry charges in one flank

[Lazy O]

Bataroas / Thorakitia

[Geticus]

hmm, actually I've once go up against Jugundiz spam as Casse :D

well, not all level 3 or 4 though, the AI still loves the 0 chevroned as well, but yeah, since that was about 200 BC, quite a lot actually had 3 or 4 chevrons

to break them is easy, extremely easy actually, maybe contrary to your tactics, but I use Iasotae + Leuce Epos to counter them, a fullstack of Jugundiz (20 unit full - I use 0 turn recruit) can be taken down simply by a General (made casse General into Kulddargos infantry actually) + 4 Leuce Epos + 2 slingers, just bait them with slingers, and put concentrated cavalry charges in one flank

Yeah when I play as Gauls I massacre Sweboz hordes with slingers, leuke epos, brihentin bodyguards all day long by tiring them out in the skirmish and then simultaneous charges. In fact slingers aren't always necessary, just skirmishing with Leuke epos until the enemy are exhausted and then chainrouting down the line with 3 way charges led by the bodyguards works fine. The AI doesn't know how to skirmish, it charges with a few troops, fires a few javelin volleys, then retreats as soon as your slingers start to skirmish, leaving them open to getting shot in the back. I get 15 to 1 on up to 100 to 1 kill ratios playing as Aedui against the Sweboz all the time, but it only proves the AI shortcomings, since the AI makes too many movements and charges/retreats too often leading to total army exhaustion. Another problem the AI has is that it doesn't use skirmisher infantry right, instead it just charges and uses them as melee troops without firing javelins at all, or runs in, fires once, and then runs away. This doesn't prove anything about the true power of the Jugundiz hordes.

Looking at it abstractly, however, I think it is pretty clear that level 4 upgraded Jugundiz > level 1 or 2 leuke epos. Upgraded Jugundiz are far cheaper, have better morale, have more javelins (1,200 vs. 800 on huge unit size), equal range, and win all day in sustained melee. Any good human player also knows how to counter a light cavalry charge by alt-clicking against them to charge with spears. The AI often just stands still and lets you charge their exposed flank and rear all day leading to easy routes. All you have to do with Sweboz is not play like the AI does and do one shot charges and turn your back to the slingers etc. The way to deal with slingers is just to charge them in the face and either shoot them with complete javelin volleys or just melee them. Either way the Sweboz have more chevrons and better morale.

[Cute Wolf]

but NOTHING beat massive cavalry charges in da flank :grin:
well, even VH battle difficulty won't help much :P

against human player in MP, it was the timing of the charge and cavalry angle (how to manipulate your opponents to doing something wrong)

[Geticus]

but NOTHING beat massive cavalry charges in da flank :grin:
well, even VH battle difficulty won't help much :P

against human player in MP, it was the timing of the charge and cavalry angle (how to manipulate your opponents to doing something wrong)

4 chevron spearmen beat massive cavalry charges all day long. Just be sure to charge the cavalry head on, don't be like the AI and stand with your flank exposed. I used to watch a lot of the MP replays and most people didn't know how to deal with cataphracts, but some did and they would chase the cataphracts down or drive them off even with garbage troops like Numidian skirmishers. Sweboz Jugundiz work the same way. Once cavalry are a little tired, how can they survive a long term melee against spearmen? They can't, they either die or run away which leads to exhaustion.

The thing about MP is that morale is much lower than it tends to be in SP. In SP with a decent general helping to bolster their already very high morale (+4 chevrons I don't know what it does but I know they fight to nearly the last man) 4 chevron Jugundiz can countercharge cataphracts and hold position. Three hetairoi on the flank just send 3 Jugundiz to shoot at them, if the hetairoi charge then countercharge with spears and micromanage the initial impact. In SP Sweboz generals always have well supplied (+1 morale), always give them an armorer (+1), and they should have some other stuff like brave (+2), fearless (+1), or Druhtinaz, Xorjonoz or whatever so armies perform much differently in SP. Ever fight a Sweboz horde commanded by the Sweboz king in SP? Their troops are much harder to break because the king is there and he is usually 10 star. If you don't kill the king, almost everyone fights to the last man right? Well in SP if you play Sweboz the same thing happens, protect your general, don't suicide him or use him in the front line, and all the Jugundiz will fight almost to the last man. Hetairoi charges are no problem, I'd send three silver chevron Jugundiz against 3 charging Hetairoi anyday, the Jugundiz will lose 100 men to the initial charge without breaking because of super high morale, and then win out in the protracted melee.

The thing about SP with super high morale is that fear, cavalry charges and other things that make troops route in MP are much less effective and battle becomes much more of an all out slugfest. Basically I'm saying that Sweboz have the highest morale of all because of the 4 chevron spam and the forager trait, so their levies are super firm and their javelins hit real hard because of all the chevrons.

[Lazy O]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

[Geticus]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

Sweboz pikemen (15 morale base) with +3 chevron, pike defensive bonus vs. cavalry, and a good general's morale bonus might.

Plus what is the cost of 5 cataphracts? Twenty 4 chevron Jugundiz cost less upkeep than 4 cataphracts, so in terms of infantry dominance, I am looking at overall cost effectiveness and ease of recruitment. Cataphracts are awesome in their way, but by 250 the Sweboz can start spamming full stacks based on huge numbers of silver chevron skirmishers. What in Europe can really withstand that? Depending on the opposition the rest of the army can vary, clubmen for AP vs. Romans, more archers vs. nomadic factions, but the Jugundiz are the primary unit, super cheap, plentiful, dominate any European cavalry and lethal on the flank. I'm just proposing that the Jugundiz skirmisher with temple of Tyr bonuses is the most overpowering infantry in Europe if used right, due above all to cost effectiveness. Against almost any army composition type I believe the 4 chevron Jugundiz will perform well, they almost always get positive kill/loss ratios. That is mainly what I look for in SP. The good infantry always cause more damage than they take. When I play Aedui almost nothing gets the better of my Northern Gallic Swordsmen after post-battle healing. Playing Casse no one ever outfights the Belgae Swordsmen. And everyone knows how lethal Thraikian peltasts are, especially with +2 or +3 chevrons. But strangely, Sweboz Jugundiz, ugly and inglorious as they are, are in that same group. Germanic spearmen are good too, but when I use the skirmishers right they are equal or sometimes even better due to all the havoc they wreak with their javelins. Almost no one in SP ever gets the better of the Sweboz youth. Their endurance is great, they almost always win in the skirmishing, they overpower all European cavalry, and then do nicely on the flanks when it comes to final battle in line. And it often doesn't go that far, many enemy armies can be routed with exquisite kill ratios just by proper skirmishing from the Jugundiz supported by archery showers.
So while cataphracts in a wedge should be able do dice up most anything, maybe even my elite Sweboz pikemen, in the macro is there anything more effective and formideable overall than Sweboz hordes based on 4 chevron Sweboz youth? Out of the six factions that I play extensively (Aedui, Arverni, Casse, Sweboz, Getai, KH) I don't think that any of them matches up well to the Sweboz youth hordes. As long as the Sweboz don't waste any money at all on cavalry they can build multiple full stacks with very high numbers all with 3/4 chevrons (4,000 on huge unit size). Maybe Makedon with its insane mining and trade economy can field armies that can compete, but I have my doubts because 4 chevron Jugundiz overpower European cavalry, including hetairoi, so easily. The main thing I see that *might* be able to match up well in the long term against Sweboz skirmisher-based hordes is Romans with Polybian principes spam and Lusotannan 3 chevron armies. But jugundiz vs. Luso ambushers, the jugundiz are cheaper man for man and at 4 chevrons have the higher morale so if anything I think the Sweboz have the edge.

Consider the stats of a 4 chevron Jugundiz (huge unit size)
200 units/188 upkeep
18 spear, 0.13 lethality
9 javelin, 1 lethality, 6 ammo, 55 range
19 defense (2 armor/3 shield/14 skill)
Morale excellent+ (4 chevrons)
very good stamina
fast moving
can hide in long grass

This is an extremely versatily, lethal, low cost unit. Can anything in Europe really hold up to these guys wave after wave?

[Lazy O]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

To elaborate on it; basically, one unit has to draw attention of the enemy army, which is not that hard to do,
when all the infantry is coming at you, use the catas in the flank like:







Attack the unit at the end of the line
!||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| <---------------------------------------Cataphracts

The cavalry will keep charging till it reaches the unit that was targeted. This will basically destroy anything and EVERYTHING in its path. Of course no human player is stupid enough to ignore those 5 catas but the AI is.

[fomalhaut]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

or knowing EB they might not decide to couch their spears if the enemy is in loose formation D:

[Lazy O]

AS I said before, unit does not stop charging till it reaches its destination NO MATTER WHAT

[fomalhaut]

too quick of an edit my friend

[Geticus]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

To elaborate on it; basically, one unit has to draw attention of the enemy army, which is not that hard to do,
when all the infantry is coming at you, use the catas in the flank like:







Attack the unit at the end of the line
!||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| <---------------------------------------Cataphracts

The cavalry will keep charging till it reaches the unit that was targeted. This will basically destroy anything and EVERYTHING in its path. Of course no human player is stupid enough to ignore those 5 catas but the AI is.

That is cool but your last sentence is the key, I'm thinking in the absolute sense which faction in Europe has the most dominant infantry unit. Played intelligently 4 chevron skirmisher-spearmen are the best buy in Europe. That's all I'm proposing and it gives the Sweboz a major macro advantage.

[Lazy O]

The 5 cataphracts was just in response to the post above mine. For all purposes of not having to play like ETW, I maintain Bataroas and Thorakitai as the most effective :)

[The_Blacksmith]

Cataphracts is quite good, but war is not a matter of weapons as much as money... idd say the The Celtic Naked spearmen are good when they are hiding... otherwise soft targets, celtic archers and slingers are really really good and my favourite the Bataroas!

i dont play as the Getai or the Swebi alot... allthough if i play ass getai i mostly use HA's and skirmishers

[fomalhaut]

my getai armies are almost completely Thracians and Illyrians, with the dacian phalanx as the line! its quite nice

[vollorix]

There is no unit as cost effective and deadly efficient as drapanai, once you just want to slaughter enemy heavy infantry. I´ve never found a use for any other "rhompa" unit playing as Getai - why should i, if i can even charge head on in any greek phalanx and crush them with those carzy half naked dudes? ^^

[fomalhaut]

drapanai must be baby sat! their complete lack of armor keeps them so vulnerable in some situations as to make them useless. while Thracian Elite stood at the front of every line i had and laughed at the javelins and arrows, then chopped everyones arms off. Elite Thracian's were the very first unit to become gold chevron through combat alone (besides FM's who have infinite soldiers and for me do looooots of combat)

[athanaric]

geticus only way for the casse to clear the sea of pirates is by conquering armorica and their shipyards
Not true. Casse can build large warships at Ictis and Ivernis. Aremorica only holds special ships for Aedui and Arverni.



Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.
Default EB doesn't have the wedge formation, so yeah.


Also, every Swêboz unit has some anti-cavalry capability, which means you have to be extra careful against them. Pikemen eat cavalry in melee, and Sloxonez beat cataphracts for cost. In fact, you can kill catas pretty quickly by ambushing them with large size AP infantry units (axemen or clubmen). This even works with Eastern axemen, who're weaker in melee than Suebi AP specialists. The way to beat Suebi is using missiles and avoiding forested areas. They're the one faction that is most dangerous vs cavalry when it comes to melee - save the nuclear Getai perhaps.

Also, Elite Thracians shouldn't be exposed to pila (small shield + small unit size vs AP javelin volley = fail). In fact, it's a very bad idea to place any kind of falxmen in the frontline. They're purely offensive units. Good for counter-charging armoured cavalry though when the cavalry has engaged your spearmen.

[Cute Wolf]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

soo true :thumbsup:

even non catass cavalry, as long as they have good charge, infantries won't survive a charge done by wedge formations ploughing their line...

well, unless 2HP Gaesatae :laugh4: if they aren't properly softened


Default EB doesn't have the wedge formation, so yeah.

umm, 1 cav in the front, followed by 2 in reasonably long column formation also works, even when not as effective

[Poulp']

I'd split the most dominant infantry in Europe into two categories: war-winning and battle-winning.

War-winnning: the cheapest infantry available to every factions; Akonkistai, Rorarii, etc... They are here to keep my back safe when the main force is on campaign.
It sounds obvious, but these guys deserve praise. There's an expression in french; "Rendons à César ce qui reviens à César", if there's an equivalant in english, I'd be glad to learn it.

Battle-winning Infantry.

- Rorarii - Cheap, numerous and 240 javelins per volley can't be wrong. Plus, they have a special power: We've got reserves. Your precious Rorarii got badly mauled? No problem, there's more of them where they came from, just send a few more units to the front. IMO, they are as much an exploit as a spam of Iaosatae.
In my games, they're one of the few units you'll find both in garnison duty and battle.
- Camillian Hastatii - Come at a discount price. Pedites may steal the show, but these guys bear the brunt of the opposition.

With the proper buildings, Epiros can field those two units at +2 exp from half the Italian peninsula, not bad for regionals.
Polybian Principes don't belong in here in my book; by the time you have access to them, they are just here to consolidate your domination. Icing on the cake if you will.

- Caetarti - Speed, stamina, AP at range and melee. They are the reason why you don't venture in a Lusotani-dominated Iberia without preparation (a good foothold, experienced or massed missile infantry, redondant units...)

- Iaosatae - already discussed to death.

- Peltastai - Flexible, reliable, and a good AoR near the Mediterranean. I send them to the meat grinder knowing I can always retrain them somewhere near. Jack of all trades, master of none, you'll find a lot of faster units, hitting harder or more enduring, but few who can do everything as well as peltastai.

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins. I tend to use them in a different, more conservative way compared to ordinary peltastai; usually shunning archers and cavalry and rushing into gaps or breaches.

[antisocialmunky]

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins. I tend to use them in a different, more conservative way compared to ordinary peltastai; usually shunning archers and cavalry and rushing into gaps or breaches.


These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

[The Celtic Viking]

There's an expression in french; "Rendons à César ce qui reviens à César", if there's an equivalant in english, I'd be glad to learn it.

Yes, there is: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s". It's from the Bible. ~;)

[fomalhaut]

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

yep :D
my favorite unit thread was made specifically for these guys. they look cool, are verrrrrry versatile and i can be assured that whoever i tell them to attack will most likely end up dead quickly. horses, armored elites, peasants, whoever.

and yeah, the homeland garrison doesn't get enough due!

[Poulp']

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

Great at cleaving through horse and man alike after some kind of cavalry bogged them down. I don't use thracians to run after cavalry, but if said cavalry run into thracians... well, dead horsemen. After a few years of campaign, a unit of Thracian Peltastai still at fighting strength is frightening. Killing FM bodyguards, wiping out elite units, scaling up and clearing walls, taking care of a flank, they are good at everything. Everything but playing the sacrificial lamb; pretty much any other unit is better suited to play that role, even Cretan Archers, since I tend to have them in large numbers.


@ TheCelticViking, thanks, I didn't knew about the "render unto". It would have made an awkward translation.

[Lazy O]

I apologise, it seems I mixed up the Scythian Nobles of EB with the ones of RS2(they had wedge), its not the same as one unit in front and 2 behind.

So it seems Geticus's notion of 4 Jundiz(whatever) is correct as the most cost effective in the game.

[vollorix]

Maybe it´s me, maybe i´m too bad tactician, but Thracian Peltasts have way too bad stamina to run after horses, or try to catch any skirmishers. Yes, they are very powerfull if used properly, but there is one thing i have noticed in my Getai campaigns: for the costs of 1 Thracian P, i can hire/maintain 2 Drapanai. I can retrain them anywhere in Dacia and Thrace, i can simply mass produce them all day long from all core settlements ( and those are a lot! ), and their stamina ( very hardy vs. hardy ) + morale ( 15 vs. 12? ) are much higher then of the peltasts. Missiles aren´t a problem at all, if you do not line up Drapanai against a skirmisher infantry, and archers aren´t a problem, since my own mostly make short work of them; what does one have light/medium cavalry for, if not to deal with that pesky scum? ^^ ) Only nomads pose danger to them, but then Thracian Peltasts die as easily as any other unit with such a pathetic shield ( = 2.. ), their armour won´t help them at all ( slingers make especially short work on them too ).
Anyway, just fighting Aedui with those sweet Belgian troopers - it´s a mass slaughter, and i only use 2 Milnaht per stack, Batacorii for the win:cool:

[antisocialmunky]

You can beat heavy horse with light horse(like the crap greek mounted skirms) + skirms with spears or AP. But its not unit count efficient.

[athanaric]

I'd split the most dominant infantry in Europe into two categories: war-winning and battle-winning.Akontistai and Rorarii are great garrison and reserve troops. Then again, so are Gaeroas who are better attackers.



- Caetarti - Speed, stamina, AP at range and melee. They are the reason why you don't venture in a Lusotani-dominated Iberia without preparation (a good foothold, experienced or massed missile infantry, Gallic swordsmen)Fixed. You can defeat most if not all Lusitanian troops with appropriate use of Bataroas. Milnaht, Xerunoudozez, or Milites Ilergetum are of course even better, but less cost-efficient. Lusitanians suck in the lethality game, unlike other barbarians. They make up for it with lots and lots of AP units, but the other barbarians have to few armoured units to render this an advantage.



- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins.They have one point of body armour more.

[Geticus]

Maybe it´s me, maybe i´m too bad tactician, but Thracian Peltasts have way too bad stamina to run after horses, or try to catch any skirmishers. Yes, they are very powerfull if used properly, but there is one thing i have noticed in my Getai campaigns: for the costs of 1 Thracian P, i can hire/maintain 2 Drapanai. I can retrain them anywhere in Dacia and Thrace, i can simply mass produce them all day long from all core settlements ( and those are a lot! ), and their stamina ( very hardy vs. hardy ) + morale ( 15 vs. 12? ) are much higher then of the peltasts. Missiles aren´t a problem at all, if you do not line up Drapanai against a skirmisher infantry, and archers aren´t a problem, since my own mostly make short work of them; what does one have light/medium cavalry for, if not to deal with that pesky scum? ^^ ) Only nomads pose danger to them, but then Thracian Peltasts die as easily as any other unit with such a pathetic shield ( = 2.. ), their armour won´t help them at all ( slingers make especially short work on them too ).
Anyway, just fighting Aedui with those sweet Belgian troopers - it´s a mass slaughter, and i only use 2 Milnaht per stack, Batacorii for the win:cool:

Yeah Thraikian peltasts are jacks of all trades, masters of none. Good in melee vs. most anything, but with their modest base defense (20) most quality swordsmen will damage them substantially in a straight up fight. And top notch longswordsmen like Neitos, used right, crush Thraikian peltasts. Likewise they are good in skirmishing, but a little low on the stamina/speed scales and not quite the numbers or firepower of high chevron Jugundiz, Ambushers, or Dacian skirmishers. People are saying that Thraikian peltasts are good vs heavy cavalry, but actually if the lancers are used right, Thraikian peltasts suffer severly from a well directed heavy cavalry charge since their armor is halved. The Getai economy is a bit weak also, so like Sweboz I always keep using the 200 mnai units, I just favor Komatai over Drapanai due to the komatai's better armor/shield and versatility.

I too like cutting KH bodyguards and hetairoi bodyguards up with Drapanai, my Phylakes Daoi are also very good at headhunting generals. But in the absolute sense drapanai are dartboards, any skirmisher or javelin armed infantry held in reserve will destroy a drapanai reserve with javelins, so they tend to work better as an exploit against the AI. When you play the Getai there are many drapanai garrisons in the Thraikian eleutheroi cities, and they are among the easiest units to destroy, archers and skirmishers alike wipe them out with ease. So the main reason drapanai work well against the AI is because the AI doesn't play smart. The Thraikian peltast and rhompaiaphoroi garrisons are far harder to finish off. Just try an single player custom battle, 3 bataroas vs. 3 drapanai/bastarnae the javelins absolutely destroy the drapanai with like 30%+ casualties over 1 or 2 seconds sometimes routing them even before they reach melee. So against a skilled player with a combined arms army (i.e. plenty javelins/missiles) drapanai in large numbers would get raped. So I keep their numbers low and the bulk of my Getic infantry lines are comprised of Komatai/Thraikian peltasts and sometimes Dacian phalanxes.

As for batacorii, truth be told I recognize some of their strengths, but never emphasize them because when I play Aedui/Arvernni, the twin capitols of Bibracte and Alesia are always my primary recruitment zone (bataroas), along with Mediolanum in North Italy for levying Southern Gallic Swordsmen vs Rome. But I see the merits that you cite, I too play EB on BI and shieldwall is really nice in some situations. But with their low armor, I know that batacorii would suffer tremendously if outmaneuvered and shot in the back by high level skirmishers. That and batacorii cost nearly twice as much as Jugundiz, have the same numbers, only half the number of javelins.

[vollorix]

Well, yes, there is quite a difference whether you play SP or MP it seems.
Concerning Drapanai vs. Bataroas: charging straight ahead with Drapanai, and recieving all the missile volleys would be really bad for the naked guys; but if i´ll sacrifice one unit of Drapanai in loose formation, exposing them to the javelines of the Bataroas, i´d say i might break Bataroas afterwards, but i have to try it out yet...
Concerning Thracian Peltast and their Elites: that´s exactly the point in using Drapanai against them - the former are armoured to teath, got "ap" weapons, but the "poor" naked Drapanai lack any armour + cut through of those guys like nothing - that is a contradiction, imo, because all i need are a couple of slingers, archers and Drapanai to take those Thracian settlements. My army costs 1/3 of the garrison, my casualities are irrelevant ( cheap ), and another "Heroic Victory" is guaranteed ;)
Batacorii do indeed suffer heavy causalities if outflanked, and even AI loves flanking them, but hey, once all javelines are spended, i guess one can overwhelm German troops.

Btw: can some one explain me, why the Thracian Doriophoroi, as well as Briton Midland Spearmen got 55 missile range? Those are levies/semi levies, their attack value is that of a low tier javeline, but they got that insane range, especially the Doriophoroi since they got 4 javelines!?! You ain´t need any skirmishers, actually, your levy line troops do the job superb, and the Thracians are even much plentier ( 120 men on large ) then many skirmisher units. I would understand if those were kind of specialists, levies, but still, but no, they are no where near it....

[VikingPower]

Try to use these 'good' units against Iberian scutari in a custom battle and watch the massacre. Of all these units whom you have spoken of then only Milnahts can beat them.

[Geticus]

Try to use these 'good' units against Iberian scutari in a custom battle and watch the massacre. Of all these units whom you have spoken of then only Milnahts can beat them.

Right, but Scutarii are 2.5 times as expensive as Jugundz and recruit with fewer chevrons. No question which is the better unit one on one, just that the 4 chev Jugundz give the Sweboz an extreme macro army building advantage due to the Jugundz low cost, and versatility. If the Lusotannan can field Loricati Scutarii in equal numbers to the Sweboz Jugundiz hordes, then the Sweboz and all the rest of Europe are doomed.

[Geticus]

Well, yes, there is quite a difference whether you play SP or MP it seems.
Concerning Drapanai vs. Bataroas: charging straight ahead with Drapanai, and recieving all the missile volleys would be really bad for the naked guys; but if i´ll sacrifice one unit of Drapanai in loose formation, exposing them to the javelines of the Bataroas, i´d say i might break Bataroas afterwards, but i have to try it out yet...
Concerning Thracian Peltast and their Elites: that´s exactly the point in using Drapanai against them - the former are armoured to teath, got "ap" weapons, but the "poor" naked Drapanai lack any armour + cut through of those guys like nothing - that is a contradiction, imo, because all i need are a couple of slingers, archers and Drapanai to take those Thracian settlements. My army costs 1/3 of the garrison, my casualities are irrelevant ( cheap ), and another "Heroic Victory" is guaranteed ;)
Batacorii do indeed suffer heavy causalities if outflanked, and even AI loves flanking them, but hey, once all javelines are spended, i guess one can overwhelm German troops.

Btw: can some one explain me, why the Thracian Doriophoroi, as well as Briton Midland Spearmen got 55 missile range? Those are levies/semi levies, their attack value is that of a low tier javeline, but they got that insane range, especially the Doriophoroi since they got 4 javelines!?! You ain´t need any skirmishers, actually, your levy line troops do the job superb, and the Thracians are even much plentier ( 120 men on large ) then many skirmisher units. I would understand if those were kind of specialists, levies, but still, but no, they are no where near it....

Thraikian Doruphoroi have good javelins in keeping with the theme that the Getai/Dacian/Thraikian faction is a faction of skirmishers. So their tier 1 spearman has skirmisher like range and higher jav count, though lacking the ability to actually skirmish.

BTW I just realized I was wrong, the temples of Cernunnos are the ones that bestor +3 chevrons for the Sweboz, and there is often one in the Carnute city, not Bratosporios, so no 5 chevron Batacorii.

[antisocialmunky]

Thraikian Doruphoroi are surprisingly good. I always use them to cover my rear if I go for the giant ball of dudes rush.

[Lazy O]

The Drapanai argument is really weak, since they have practically 0 armour and get massacred by archers.

[athanaric]

Thraikian Doruphoroi have good javelins in keeping with the theme that the Getai/Dacian/Thraikian faction is a faction of skirmishers. So their tier 1 spearman has skirmisher like range and higher jav count, though lacking the ability to actually skirmish.Drapanai + Doryphoroi = zerg rush
Beats anything except mass archers.



BTW I just realized I was wrong, the temples of Cernunnos are the ones that bestor +3 chevrons for the Sweboz, and there is often one in the Carnute city, not Bratosporios, so no 5 chevron Batacorii.
You'd get 5 chevron Celto-Germanic Spearmen though, who're almost identical stat-wise, indeed even better in some ways.

[Lazy O]

Unless the Getai have superior missile power, its useless

[DaciaJC]

Unless the Getai have superior missile power, its useless

I'd hardly call it "useless." Obviously one would be incredibly foolish to head out into the steppes with mostly just Drapanai, but against a standard Eurobarb army, a large contingent of Draps backed by supporting troops is incredibly effective given their price.

[fomalhaut]

The Drapanai argument is really weak, since they have practically 0 armour and get massacred by archers.

this is what i've been saying! Elite Thracian's are better though they are more expensive, less numerous, and smaller aor. i just don't like one shot kills against my drapanai, it breaks my heart

[antisocialmunky]

Not when you have enough ;).

[fomalhaut]

i value my soldiers! they aren't just men to be thrown away
in fact i will disband units often as a way of roleplaying them going back to their farms and families, thanking them for their service with some nice money

[Lazy O]

And what would a standard EuroBarb army be?

[CashMunny]

Bataroas spam, or dugundiz spam mostly.

[Lazy O]

But.... anything works vs AI

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well 20 units of Drapanai are not ideal either. 10 will still rip through any army and leave plenty of cash for more heavily armored units to shake off the archer fire.

[Lazy O]

Archer fire will still rip through the Drapanai. Leaving half your army dead.

[vollorix]

This is a bit confusing, gentlemen: it seems we are talking about MP ( archer armies will only be fielded by Sauros, and there is also a big difference in which terrain a battle would be fought, etc. ), while silver chevroned Jugundiz + the conditions of the OP are quite diferent and concern single player, imo.
One of the important things for troops beeing effectiv, imo, is stamina. But sadly, any unit with normal physis would tire out after even a little jogging on the battlefield, the ones with good stamina are fine, unless a battle take realy a while, with manouvering troops around the flanks, charging, repeating the actions etc., but the only once which are usefull are with "very hardy" attribute, and this brings a dilemma with it, i think. Heavy troops which ain´t have that attribute are worthless ( except it´s a phalanx of any kind that has to hold the line, not more ), but the once with it are the true dread on the battlefield. Drapanai, Milnaht, Botroas, and some other units, are "very hardy", while most of the others heavier guys aren´t. Of course, Jugundiz are, therefore their morale, their lethality, and their efficiency in the combat are pretty unmatched with 4 chevrons experience, coupled with 6 javelines and 0.13 spear lethality. Btw: is there any other way to adjust the durability of the troops other then in the EDU? Like in the animation parts, or determining the "weight" of a unit ( aka: light, heavy, etc ) ?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well with regards to SP, you can only play against AI and so I feel that large contingents of Drapanai are incredibly strong, even more so than the 4 chevron Jugundiz spam just because of higher lethality and AP. The AI is incapable of singling out units that are lightly armored for archer fire and so this tactic is incredibly useful.

As far as MP is concerned, Drap spam works sometimes, if skillfully executed by the Getai player. That is, some light cavalry to screen the Draps and keep opposing archer units moving. Another good tactic is to advance heavier troops up first, distract your opponent with cavalry manuevers to his flanks or rear, and then quickly charge the infantry home before he can react quickly enough. Also keep Draps in loose formation up until the charge.

It is also worth noting that the Getai get better archery/slinger units than most other Western factions and so may often win missile duels outright.

[Lazy O]

For the last time, its useless thinking about the best ways to deal with the AI. ANYTHING WORKS

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

For the last time, its useless thinking about the best ways to deal with the AI. ANYTHING WORKS

Well unfortunately, like it or not, that is basically the entire point of this thread as we can't play against other humans in a campaign.

[CashMunny]

Well unfortunately, like it or not, that is basically the entire point of this thread as we can't play against other humans in a campaign.

Besides, I'd like to see him take a fullstack of toxotai and do anything with them. Yes, it's fairly easy to beat the AI. No, 'just anything' won't work though.

[william weedzor]

As far as MP is concerned, Drap spam works sometimes, if skillfully executed by the Getai player. That is, some light cavalry to screen the Draps and keep opposing archer units moving. Another good tactic is to advance heavier troops up first, distract your opponent with cavalry manuevers to his flanks or rear, and then quickly charge the infantry home before he can react quickly enough. Also keep Draps in loose formation up until the charge.

Is the opponent atleast allowed to watch or he must be really AFK during this?:D

Anyway MP tactics like this should start with "And then he suddenly went afk" or "Fortunately,my dog Jerry was distracted by our cat Tittie so he cant react in time against my light cavalry".

Nothing against,but human players dare to have their own plans while your tactic just simply ignore the very existence of active human mind on the other side.

[DionCaesar]

As a Caesar fan, I think it's a pity that no one has mentioned cohors reformata. Ofcourse, their stats aren't that great, but their availability in all of the Roman world (after quite some barracks upgrades, unfortunately) has to count for something, right?

This could probably be a new thread, but the Marians should perhaps get an experience bonus, if there is a way for the modders to increase the speed at which they gain experience. Because they are a standing army, they could have 15 or more years of tight fighting experience, which is, as we have seen in history, lethal for a lot of factions.
This would simulate the true strength of the Roman army, without making it possible to spam over powered units (fresh units don't have the experience). I think I have to dream on, though.:sleeping:

Back at topic, Roarii are a very good unit to fight with, because of their large cohorts and their 3 throwing spears. They're one of my favorite Roman support units.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Is the opponent atleast allowed to watch or he must be really AFK during this?:D

Anyway MP tactics like this should start with "And then he suddenly went afk" or "Fortunately,my dog Jerry was distracted by our cat Tittie so he cant react in time against my light cavalry".

Nothing against,but human players dare to have their own plans while your tactic just simply ignore the very existence of active human mind on the other side.

While I certainly don't deny the existence of an active human mind as an opponent, if you are using lots of Drapanai, you certainly are going on the offensive and trying to make him react to your maneuvers by the merits of your aggressiveness. I've found in my MP battles(though admittedly almost all are in vanilla where units are more easily broken), that I often perform better in battles where I am the aggressor as I can disrupt my opponents gameplan by making the first aggressive moves.

Of course I don't profess to be very good at EB multi, I've played very little of it and only against a few friends. That said, I was just defending the Drap charge MP tactic as workable while also trying to make a case for them as most dominant european infantry.

[Geticus]

Basically my original intent is to look at the single player game on the macro level of empire building, taking into account the strengths of each European faction, like the huge chevron bonuses of the Sweboz, the economic strength of the Romans, Makedonians, etc, and trying to reduce the question of "most dominant infantry" to a small set of the true, most optimal and overpowering factional units. Yes anything works against the AI, but some things work better, with greater cost-efficiency, and with superior kill-casualty ratios. This is indisputable, go fight huge armies of Roman infantry, or later Gallic spam with Gaesatae, or Yellow Death elite phalanx invasions, or fight the full stacks in inner Germany with a Sweboz king- Sweboz kings can be extremely hard to kill sometimes and the armies will not route until he is killed. Furthermore, I play on VH campaign, Hard battle and in those conditions the javelin volleys of enemy infantry can be very lethal. So some things work better than others, and some battles are very hard to win, and the AI will beat you with some armies if your forces are not strong. So this is where the worth of the superior infantry is proven. You don't conquer the Uber-stacks at Eburon with low quality levies, and you don't expand, or fight multi-front wars with inefficient troop combinations.

So I personally believe the 4 chevron Sweboz Jugundiz to be tops, due to cost, versatility and near unbreakability. Some are touting the drapanai due to their crushing power in melee, and one might add the Getai's very high chevron bonuses (+3/+4 at Sarmizegethusa with the right infrastructure). Then others saying Belgae Batacorii and Roman Rorarii, for somewhat similar reasons. I am surprised though, that few are representing the later Roman side of things like brave Sir Robin. If I could bring myself to play the Romans, (they just seem OP so I don't bother), it always seemed to me that Polybian infantry were real strong, and Post-marians perhaps better yet.

Anyhow just wanted to clarify, the question I am posing is basically one for the single player min-max hardcore viewpoint. Not just what works, since yes a good player can beat the AI on normal battle difficulty with most troop types by exploiting the AI tendency to overmaneuver and become exhausted. My question is what mass-leviable infantry unit is the single most overpowering, and bestows the best qualitative advantage to its respective faction, for development of the total military strength of an empire.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Eh, I'm actually espousing the benefits of Drapanai, but that doesn't matter.:laugh4:

I havn't played Sweboz in a while but my recent playthrough as the Getai has me quite high on the Draps. Not only do they complement the mostly skirmishing early forces of a Getai warband well by ripping through tired and weakened foes, but they are also easily recruitable from Skythia to Sarmizegthusa, to Odyrisai making them very useful. Jugudiz, imo, are very useful and versatile, but they aren't going to be able to beat heavy infantry head on even levied at 4 chevrons. Its also worth noting, that like Drapanai, their weakness is in missile vulnerability, though that is mitigated a bit by a shield. Draps can take on heavy or light infantry, especially if you have been skirmishing a bit first with your Komatai and used up a good portion of the enemies javelins. Especially given their position facing down the Hellenistic armies to the south, the best unit to have to cut through those phalanxes are Drapanai. Comparing costs, Draps are 218 a turn to upkeep and Jugundiz are 188 with both having 100 men on large unit size. Also worth noting that you won't be able to afford building up temples too early as Sweboz since economy is so poor so those major chevron bonuses are more mid-game than early.

[Geticus]

Eh, I'm actually espousing the benefits of Drapanai, but that doesn't matter.:laugh4:

I havn't played Sweboz in a while but my recent playthrough as the Getai has me quite high on the Draps. Not only do they complement the mostly skirmishing early forces of a Getai warband well by ripping through tired and weakened foes, but they are also easily recruitable from Skythia to Sarmizegthusa, to Odyrisai making them very useful. Jugudiz, imo, are very useful and versatile, but they aren't going to be able to beat heavy infantry head on even levied at 4 chevrons. Its also worth noting, that like Drapanai, their weakness is in missile vulnerability, though that is mitigated a bit by a shield. Draps can take on heavy or light infantry, especially if you have been skirmishing a bit first with your Komatai and used up a good portion of the enemies javelins. Especially given their position facing down the Hellenistic armies to the south, the best unit to have to cut through those phalanxes are Drapanai. Comparing costs, Draps are 218 a turn to upkeep and Jugundiz are 188 with both having 100 men on large unit size. Also worth noting that you won't be able to afford building up temples too early as Sweboz since economy is so poor so those major chevron bonuses are more mid-game than early.

Drapanai have 80 men on large unit and 160 on huge, while jugundz are 100/200 so jugunds are both cheaper and more numerous, something which helps a great deal fighting the Sauromatae, where the large numbers, low cost, and shields of the Jugundz make them decent meatshields in loose array in front of the army (yes I have conquered the Sauros on VH/H with Sweboz and Jugundiz are definitely a viable front line unit as are Dacian Komatai).

Well sweboz can recruit Jugundiz at one chevron mid 260's, 2 chevron late 260s and 3 chev from the capitol in the early 250's at some point, along with the weaponsmith upgrade. The 4 chevrons take longer true, sometime around 250 for the first 4 chevron units. Once I can spam 3 chevron Jugundiz as Sweboz, say around 257/256 if I develop Swebotraust steadily, then I think the Sweboz are extremely difficult if not impossible to conquer. My reasoning is that the Jugundiz are so cheap that you can have multiple armies, meaning plentiful reinforcements for your main army, and high chevron Jugundiz dominate on the flanks. No European light or heavy cavalry can beat them aside from Getai horse archers. Which means that enemy armies will tend to get surrounded. A Sweboz all infantry high chevron army, with no cavalry at all, is cheap, extremely numerous--generically 3,000 to 4,000 men on huge unit size) with perhaps the highest morale of any standard army composition in the game due to all the chevrons. And although I do use other Sweboz units for all out melee, like Sweboz swordsmen and Dugundz spearmen, I view the Jugundz as the backbone of the army since they start the battle via skirmishing, take the first casualties, and can do decisive maneuvers at the end after they retreat through the main line and regroup as a reserve. 18 spear attack with fast moving makes for serious damage on a flank surround.

That said, I do get the advantages of drapanai. I have played Getai a lot, and the drapanai are in a way a dominant reserve almost like no other. They are so cost effective against elite phalanxes it is not funny. They own KH bodyguards, elite no-javelin heavy infantry, and are IMO better against high chevron elite heavy cavarly than rhompaiaphoroi since they are not vulnerable to AP. But the thing is, whereas the AI is very poor at skirmishing with most non-HA units, I am very good at it. And IMO with most factions, combined arms skirmishing should be a core capability of any good army. That is where the immaculate victories are, 50 to 1 or 100 to 1 kill ratios on hard battle difficulty start with missile power superiority and skirmishing. For that reason I see the drapanai as a great reserve, perhaps the most cost effective reserve vs armored units, but not a primary unit. I always view the Komatai skirmishers as the workhorse of early Getai armies, and the Thraikian peltast as the most cost effective core unit of later Getai armies. If they don't do their job well and exhaust the enemies' missile supply, the draps are dartfodder. To me drapanai dominance is basically an exploit of the AI's poor micro, and army composition habits. Against a better opponent, or a better AI, who properly appreciates the strengths and weaknesses of drapanai, and integrates missile units more efficiently into the army, all they need to do is keep some missile power in reserve, to keep the draps in check. In comparison the Jugundz are IMO much harder to shut down so I view them as more dominant.

[moonburn]

herm if the problem is money both keltic factions are normally willing to pay 10-15k mnai for a peace agreament wich means if the sweaboz play their diplomatic cards well they won´t have many money problems

i can´t remember if one should ask the aedui or arverni 1st but the payment they give depends on alot of litle things there are instances where you can even get a regular payment of a few thousand mnai (1.5k to 4.5k) for 100 turns (altough it can be considered an exploit i normally do it to keep peace during those turns since they never attack while they are paying the tribute)

[Ksifos]

IMHO Pikemen of any kind, don't have a match in EB, efficiency speaking - unless you react with some really SMART moves, you easily get into trouble.
That's why the AI spams Pikemen, he knows better :-P

[fomalhaut]

yeah i'd say deutoroi are pretty good cost efficiency. i dont' care if you have 3 million Jugundz, they will never take a town defended by some deutoroi

[moonburn]

you would need a alot of deuteroi to stop a blitz attack by jugundz because basically you can beat them by cumulative power with all the javelins flying around and into the deuteroi backs

a full stack of jugunds lead by the ai would beat a 1/4 stack of deuteroi in city batle

[antisocialmunky]

Um, just blockade the streets?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Where's this Sweboz economy which is supporting a full stack of Jugundiz either? The inherent weakness in Sweboz armies are not that their troops do not perform well, its just that you can't afford very many of them with your dirt poor provinces.

[fomalhaut]

Um, just blockade the streets?

exactly. xerxes had the advantage of numbers and missiles yet funnel them and remove that advantage. though i assume a real city battle would be different, we are talking about game mechanics and in that deuteroi, maybe even pendapoi phalanx, will destroy these jugundz. sure, just the cumulative effect of thousands of javelins will kill many, but there is no way to hit the deuteroi from the back.

it sucks being so used to deuteroi and then switching to an eastern faction with their phalangites. they are uglier, less effective, and just the idea of dragging around these poor people to the ends of the earth isn't very fun. at least deuteroi have something to lose or gain when they fight.. sort of.

[Ksifos]

How many javelins will be thrown? Javelins throwed directly do mediocre damage.So let's assume a 20% kill ratio at THE VERY BEST? ----->190 phalangitai /unit remains.
Remember frontal assault will take the best of heavy infantry to push a pikemen phalanx back a bit.And of course the phalanx can be deployed in greater depth where it become unmovable.
This of course can be tested in a custom battle but I can safely assume that even in open battlefield these Jugundai don't stand a chance even against levy pikemen.

[fomalhaut]

right, and just imagine brazen or silver shields :P

[antisocialmunky]

exactly. xerxes had the advantage of numbers and missiles yet funnel them and remove that advantage. though i assume a real city battle would be different, we are talking about game mechanics and in that deuteroi, maybe even pendapoi phalanx, will destroy these jugundz. sure, just the cumulative effect of thousands of javelins will kill many, but there is no way to hit the deuteroi from the back.

it sucks being so used to deuteroi and then switching to an eastern faction with their phalangites. they are uglier, less effective, and just the idea of dragging around these poor people to the ends of the earth isn't very fun. at least deuteroi have something to lose or gain when they fight.. sort of.

The Eastern version of the levy phalanx is one of the best units in the game. They are sized 240 axemen first and pikemen second. You can literally zerg stuff to death with them online or run around and put the spears down only when you need them. Just have some of the guys stay in phalanx and pin and then just wheel around the flank with your massive numbers and cavalry wings to crush the enemy wings and then zerg the main heavy infantry body ^_^

[moonburn]

you can just push through it even if you loose 1 or 2 full units once the phallanx as been breached it´s easy to win i mean the kelts rolled under the phallanx we can just assume this exploit serves the same principles as i said 20 will beat 5 once you destroy one of the phallanxs you can use proper tactical movements to always catch them in the back unleass you put 2 deuteroi units back to back in a long street but then you´ll have no one protecting the plaza and you can take the city

in an open field ? well zweabos are meant to fight in forest not in open fields but even then with proper tactical management (micro management) you can always out run the phallanx and there´s always some backs free to shoot javelins at even with noob boxes it can be done (even tough it´s probably far harder)

blitzkrieg concentrate all your firepower into the weakest link of the enemy and then move as fast as you can to take advantage of their slowness to regroup and reorganise

ofc a incopetent general can do fairly well with phallanxs while it takes a proper leader to use the sweaboz effectivly but even epaminondas outnumbered beaten the spartans using the blitzkrieg principle so it´s highly feasible all it takes is tactical prowess

[antisocialmunky]

I did those mass pushes online to force phalanxes to be squares and people got mad at me.

[fomalhaut]

hahaha, i don't know the nuances of online play i never would think of something so cheap as using the levy phalanx as zerg rush :P


there are at most 3 entrances to any plaza, a deuteroi in each street, no gaps between them and walls, nothing will get past. sometimes the ai does stupid things like not get in formation or break from it for no reason, but that's an external issue. One way i take cities is to keep the enemy away with massed archer fire, open gate, then place a phalanx through their main street that they will use to get to the gate. When the phalanx doesn't do the retard dance (one guy spinning in circles so NOBODY puts pike downs) its forces everyone in one road. its the end of that entire garrison unless they have elephants.

I was once sieging Seleukaia, and an army consisting of nothing but 8 FM's and Jews rushed to its aid. All i had to do was place one Levy Phalanx at the entrance of the bridge and nothing survived. Archers shooting on the sides, deado. and these are Hetairoi we are talking about here :P



In real life maybe this wouldn't work super well because a city is more complicated than 3 streets and a plaza, but IRL the entire population would also be stabbing all die jugundz, so :P

[antisocialmunky]

IRL your war elephant gets stuck in a gate and in the chaos that ensues, you get roof tiled in the head and decapitated by some peasants.

[fomalhaut]

truly a tragic ending for such a fascinating character. his bust serves as my avatar in many forums

[Ksifos]

moonburn - While you have to do some SERIOUS micro, your opponent would simply line up and watch you doing a parade :-P

Even in forests Pikemen perform well and if they maintain high morale then you are in BIG trouble.They just don't break.You say you can breach the phalanx line? Man you are going to loose a LOT in order to do that - depending on the depth of the phalanx you may even cause your unit to route!

The vulnerability of phalanx is when you hit it from the flanks, usually they turn towards you, but simultaneously shoot javelins, arrows, stones on their BACK.This is the only scenario where they count significant casualties and drop morale FAST.With jugundai I doubt you can stand a direct fight long enough to neutralize the phalanx.
And if talking for PvP remember there is no pause to do your funky micro-management. ;-)

PS - nice to see there are some Starcraft vets in the forums ;-)

[fomalhaut]

and that's just deuteroi, professional pikemen or elite pikemen just don't break! i had multiple late parni charges straight to the back of silver shields many times, but they stood strong. i had to send some indian elephants to finally rout them.

you often have to kill them down to the very last man

[athanaric]

When the phalanx doesn't do the retard dance (one guy spinning in circles so NOBODY puts pike downs)

They also like to face the wrong direction when deployed in a street. Like, pointing their pikes towards the house on the right instead of the Hetairoi unit in front of you. Despite your explicit order to form up properly (including holding down the mouse button and drawing the formation on the ground)...

[moonburn]

i guess it isn´t just me who sometimes have those problems with pikeman i normally just deploy them in the end of the street (entrance or exit) i put 2-3 rows outside the street bounderies on each side that way they can deploy fast and if they dance too much i just hit the halt button (you know the one saying stop showing an hand) and if they don´t position after i hit that button i redeploy them again

also remember to only activate the phallanx once they are in position or else they´re so freaking slow it´s nauseating (assuming you always remember to disable the phallanx before entering the city since speed and tactical prowess are many times the same thing)

[fomalhaut]

They also like to face the wrong direction when deployed in a street. Like, pointing their pikes towards the house on the right instead of the Hetairoi unit in front of you. Despite your explicit order to form up properly (including holding down the mouse button and drawing the formation on the ground)...


the agony seriously kills me. its like, look guys, i get it, this is a complex formation and you had to train a lot to learn it... but where does it seem like a good idea to not point your spear at the bad guy ever?

does anyone else auto resolve city battles and sieges though? i find them to be far too formulaic, boring and the pathfinding far too stupid. like when you tell a unit to get on the wall, they all line up outside the wall ALL THE WHILE GETTING SHOT BY THE WALL but never enter until the very last guy is in position. or your horses will go the most odd routes and split up to many different groups hugging the walls when you tell them to go somewhere.

the only reason i ever siege now is so that an enemy army can relieve the siege and we can have a real battle somewhere. from what i understand it was ->decisive battle in region ->towns and cities mostly give up if the invader wins. at least that's how it was for Alex

[Geticus]

Where's this Sweboz economy which is supporting a full stack of Jugundiz either? The inherent weakness in Sweboz armies are not that their troops do not perform well, its just that you can't afford very many of them with your dirt poor provinces.

The Sweboz have a pretty good economy, if you know what the strong points are. The key is coastal trade in the Baltic, above all the triangle of Swebotraust-Scandza-Rugii. Disband all cavalry and blitz Rugii-Cimbroz-Scandza, and drop T3 governments for the quick tax bonus, and put good governors on Swebotraust and Scandza. You'd be surprised what kind of money the Sweboz generate played right. Once Swebotraust reaches 4% or 4.5% population growth with a L3 temple of Tyr, the uber-Jugundiz spam never ends and the rest of Europe will quake.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The Sweboz have a pretty good economy, if you know what the strong points are. The key is coastal trade in the Baltic, above all the triangle of Swebotraust-Scandza-Rugii. Disband all cavalry and blitz Rugii-Cimbroz-Scandza, and drop T3 governments for the quick tax bonus, and put good governors on Swebotraust and Scandza. You'd be surprised what kind of money the Sweboz generate played right. Once Swebotraust reaches 4% or 4.5% population growth with a L3 temple of Tyr, the uber-Jugundiz spam never ends and the rest of Europe will quake.

There is certainly trade to be had in the Baltic. But when those annoying rebel pirates start showing up about 10-15 years in and blockading half of your ports, that is another story. This is what happened to me in my long ago Sweboz campaign and unlike the Celts who can build the large ships in Amorica, I was doomed to just deal with it.

[athanaric]

There is certainly trade to be had in the Baltic. But when those annoying rebel pirates start showing up about 10-15 years in and blockading half of your ports, that is another story. This is what happened to me in my long ago Sweboz campaign and unlike the Celts who can build the large ships in Amorica, I was doomed to just deal with it.
You don't have to deal with it. It is possible to defeat the pirate swarms without using too many ships. One fleet of six or so warship units should be enough. Make sure to target the weakest pirate fleets first, to gather experience and command stars. For more details, see here:

Originally Posted by athanaric (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?127179-A-Comprehensive-Guide-to-Sw%C3%AAb%C5%8Dz-Gameplay):
3.2.1 A way to reach Gotland without getting squashed by pirates:


Usually the Baltic Sea is infested by ridiculous numbers of pirates, which will sink your transport fleets. Here's what you do:
1) Conquer Gawjam-Skandzawarjoz (build level 1 government of course).
2) Build up its trade port to level 2 [this gives you a money boost you need to afford ships].
3) Build a military port. This will enable you to build the transport boats.
4) Move your army on land as close as possible towards Gotland. It should be near modern day Västervik.
5) Build a unit of transport boats, and move them between Gotland and your army. Their (the fleet's) movement points expire there. Make sure your army has enough movement points left!!! Otherwise they will be stuck on the fleet and sunk by the inevitable pirates.
6) Move the army onto the boats. They should be able to get out of them onto Gotland in the same turn (otherwise you're screwed).
7) Take the settlement, build level 1 government.
8) Proceed the same way as in Gawjam-Skandzawarjoz. Now you will be able to build a level 2 military port on Gotland.
9) Build six units of "warships" on Gotland. KILL ALL PIRATES with them. Retraining will be necessary a lot.
10) Warships are expensive, so disband or merge the least experienced ones when there are no pirates nearby.

[moonburn]

i just ignored the pirates they never blockade for long and never more then 2/3 harbours while you got like 4-5 trading so the cost of building ships doesn´t pay up unleass you take the entire baltic coast and even then your money is better spent taking over most of modern day germany building forts in the alps passage taking over modern day lithuania poland western russia and all places that are in forest and then moving to belgium and into armourica where you can get the galleons if the kelts get in your way you might aswell just build a new holy roman empire economically it isn´t worth it the navy you can take gotland just the same for the priçe of 1 or 2 transport cheap ships

ofc taking over lithuania and western russia without navy is a bit harder i advice turning off fog of war when you sent an army there it makes the pathfinder easyer instead of you loosing 10 turns trying to locate a setlement and trying to reach there by the midle of swamps

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I got unlucky and the pirates decided to keep blockading my ports for about 10-15 turns at a time. Fleets are really expensive though and 5-6 warships as Sweboz would cost too much. If you're going to build that many ships you might as well build an army to conquer the Alps or Gaul.

[fomalhaut]

yeah with that money you could easily just conquer the world..

[athanaric]

Trust me guys, it works, and yes, it is worth the effort. It just requires a minimum of gaming skill and logical thought. Germanic warships are not as expensive as quinquiremes.

[Geticus]

Trust me guys, it works, and yes, it is worth the effort. It just requires a minimum of gaming skill and logical thought. Germanic warships are not as expensive as quinquiremes.

The whole Germanic navy thing is an interesting question. I have also done the 6 warship, retrain over and over and slowly crush all. It is very expensive as they say- 5,400 mnai per turn roughly the cost of an entire good army, plus the very high costs of retraining. The savings I think depend, if you build advanced trading ports at Swebotraust and other cities then any blockade of a key port can cost maybe 2,000 per turn or so. So while conquering the pirates is prestigious, the 5,400 + retrains is IMO a bit hard to justify. Another cost-saver naval option is to just train 1 transport fleet, and leapfrog from port to port and sneak around the Jutland peninsula and finally secure a single ship in the port at Bagacos. From there one can do infinite army transports into Britain, still ending the ship's turn safely back in Bagacos. This way one invests the minimum in a navy for the maximum benefit of conquering the Casse and getting the druidic university at Ynys Mon, druidic healers are extremely beneficial for Sweboz generals.

[athanaric]

Well I'm very good with the economy and I can actually afford bribing enemy armies and keeping ships at the same time, even with this faction. The important thing to remember is that EB economy requires careful management and that you should not build too many armies. It also really pays to use realistic armies instead of swordsmen spam.

[fomalhaut]

well according to this thread cost/benefit we should just have entire armies full of nothing but untrained adolescent males, die jugundiz :P

[moonburn]

herm athanaric we always have to sacrifice something particulary with the sweaboz we can´t have money developed city´s (as in constructing every turn) armies and navy´s normally and in my own personal experience we can only have 1 of those with sweaboz

we might have more with ptolomaiois seulekids or any balkan faction after they build the mines but with barbarians we normally can´t have it all both because mines aren´t enough for everything and because they can only build L1 mines (wich is ofc what i deslike the most about barbarians)

[Drag0nUL]

and that's just deuteroi, professional pikemen or elite pikemen just don't break! i had multiple late parni charges straight to the back of silver shields many times, but they stood strong. i had to send some indian elephants to finally rout them.

you often have to kill them down to the very last man

Not to mention that, if you can't outflank them, silver shields and other elite pikemen are almost impossible to beat back with non-phalanx units.
I've had silver shields hold bridges and city streets against impossible odds. Most impressive feat was having a 2 bronze chevron silver shields unit holding a bridge practically by itself (only other units that scored kills in that battle were 2 units of toxotai) vs. a whole roman fullstack and losing under 10 men (on huge).

[vollorix]

It only applies to BI. but a heavily aromured unit in "shield_wall" formation can push through any kind of phalangitai, though with quite a causalities ( guard mod "on" ). First i thought, hey, that seems like an exploit against the poor AI, but then i saw the Romans breaking my phalanx line ( playing Epirotes, most of my phalangitai were the Deuteroi levies, though ). It´s kind of scarry to see the Roman units reforming on the battlefield, and arranging all their heavy infantry in shield_wall formation ( those manouvers somehow remembered me on that scene from the old "Spartacus" movie during the last battle ).

[fomalhaut]

that's pretty dang cool actually, reminds me of heraclaeum or something

[Ksifos]

It´s kind of scarry to see the Roman units reforming on the battlefield, and arranging all their heavy infantry in shield_wall formation ( those manouvers somehow remembered me on that scene from the old "Spartacus" movie during the last battle ).
Romani scarry? Not at all in EB :-P
In my game (and in most as I read in other posts) they get destroyed.I am willing to try and see why they get so easily PWNED by Carthage and Spain.

I started a game with the Britons (VH/VH) but I got crushed early rounds.All towns had such big armies giving a 2:1 odds in favor of the AI.Tried a siege with all I had (London left empty :-P) Rebels sent help immediately - great, lol.I might try this save again, to find the solution but from what I saw Britons must lack in units.At least their spear throwers/chariot generals suck badly.

[fomalhaut]

their chariots are the best in the game or so it is said. btw Ksifos, i suggest playing Pahlava. probably the best EB campaign i've had yet, such a diverse set of enemies, locales and units, as well as personally overseeing their transition from nomads to a settled neo persian empire. also the best horsemen ever.

or if you really like the Hellenes, play as Baktria. so awesome playing as Greeks at the end of the world.

[TheLastDays]

Well if you used the generals to charge into enemy infantry than you are correct, they suck, but they aren't melee cav, they are frightening skirmisher cav... breaking enemy morale, strengtheneing your guys' morale and all the while throwing some javelins ;) and if you need, send them through the enemy ranks, cluster them and send a unit of teceitos right behind... watch them wreak havoc on scared, disoriented foes...

and their infantry? the only unit of them that lacks a bit are their archers, they're more distraction than action...

Gueroas are good file infantry, botaroas are nice heavy infantry and from there on it get's only better... Milnaht, Calawre all class units, although I usually do the conquering of britain with just gueroas, botaroas, sotaroas and some caledonian skirmishers (they are great skirmishers imo)

[athanaric]

Romani scarry? Not at all in EB :-P
In my game (and in most as I read in other posts) they get destroyed.I am willing to try and see why they get so easily PWNED by Carthage and Spain.If controlled by the human player, Romani can dominate all others easily. It's the AI's inherent push northwards and its reliance on autoresolve that poses a problem for AI controlled Romans.



I might try this save again, to find the solution but from what I saw Britons must lack in units.At least their spear throwers/chariot generals suck badly.They don't. It's your own fault if you play on VH battle modus. VH is retarded as the AI just gets massive stat boni. Better start up a game on VH/M.
Casse units are very versatile and useful and that applies to their chariots, too.

Here (http://europabarbarorum.wikia.com/wiki/Gaeroas_%28Celtic_Spearmen%29)'s some pointers as to how to use Gaeroas. Check out the "usage" section.

[vollorix]

I wasn´t talking about campaign AI but about about 15 units of Princeps, Triarii and PE reforming on the battlefield into a, partly "trippled", shieldwall formation just to march through my phalangitai units. I had cavalry advantage, i had couple of experienced slingers to give those high armoured units the rest once they are pinned by my battle line, but instead they have managed to rout about 2/3 of my phalangitai ( all of deuteroi ), heavily depleted Pezetaeroi, while only my own hoplites in shieldwall formation were able to resist their push. Even surrounded, they were impossible to attack since they were stacked in those shieldwall formations, building kind of massive square. The scary thing was to watch how the AI perfectly adopted to fighting quite large phalangitai line, guarded on the flanks. And btw: you would normaly expect the AI, which is blocking the river crossing, to make a stand somewhere farther on the other side of the river, but this time ( i was playing Casse fighting Aedui ) they did what players use to call the "abusing" of bridges - they simply would not let my soldiers cross the river, but instead have built a massive defence order with multiple lines, causing horrible casualities to my troops. I have never whitnessed that before, and before playing on BI.exe i have never seen a phalangitai line beeing breached and annihilated by a frontal assault. Thats all ;)

[ximxim]

Well if you used the generals to charge into enemy infantry than you are correct, they suck, but they aren't melee cav, they are frightening skirmisher cav... breaking enemy morale, strengtheneing your guys' morale and all the while throwing some javelins ;) and if you need, send them through the enemy ranks, cluster them and send a unit of teceitos right behind... watch them wreak havoc on scared, disoriented foes...

and their infantry? the only unit of them that lacks a bit are their archers, they're more distraction than action...

Gueroas are good file infantry, botaroas are nice heavy infantry and from there on it get's only better... Milnaht, Calawre all class units, although I usually do the conquering of britain with just gueroas, botaroas, sotaroas and some caledonian skirmishers (they are great skirmishers imo)

Don't forget the Kluddobro! They're like the (slightly worse) Jugundhiz of britain. Who needs quality when you can outnumber the enemy 3 to 1? Whenever I play Casse I never build anything else, the fact that they're recruitable all over europe helps as well...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I wasn´t talking about campaign AI but about about 15 units of Princeps, Triarii and PE reforming on the battlefield into a, partly "trippled", shieldwall formation just to march through my phalangitai units. I had cavalry advantage, i had couple of experienced slingers to give those high armoured units the rest once they are pinned by my battle line, but instead they have managed to rout about 2/3 of my phalangitai ( all of deuteroi ), heavily depleted Pezetaeroi, while only my own hoplites in shieldwall formation were able to resist their push. Even surrounded, they were impossible to attack since they were stacked in those shieldwall formations, building kind of massive square. The scary thing was to watch how the AI perfectly adopted to fighting quite large phalangitai line, guarded on the flanks. And btw: you would normaly expect the AI, which is blocking the river crossing, to make a stand somewhere farther on the other side of the river, but this time ( i was playing Casse fighting Aedui ) they did what players use to call the "abusing" of bridges - they simply would not let my soldiers cross the river, but instead have built a massive defence order with multiple lines, causing horrible casualities to my troops. I have never whitnessed that before, and before playing on BI.exe i have never seen a phalangitai line beeing breached and annihilated by a frontal assault. Thats all ;)

The AI did that once to me too and completely annihilated me. I was playing Romani and landed an invasion near Carthage, attacking north towards the city. I ended my turn on the bridge and was met by a Carthaginian fullstack. They attacked me and since I was inland and had no fleet immediately nearby, it was a fight to the death for me. No big deal I thought, I had a full stack of Polybian Romans, freshly minted. Unfortunately, the AI decided to stack two units of the Elite Liby-Phoenecians on the other side of the bridge. Since I was making accurate Polybian armies, I only had one unit of PE and mostly Hastati and Principes. Lets just say that those two units of Liby-Phonecians killed over 1000 men all by themselves as I hopelessly threw unit after unit at them being unable to retreat. By far my worst defeat ever.

[Ksifos]

fomalhaut - well Britons is a nice campaign, strategically speaking.You can conquer the island and then you have options ;-) That's where I want to get.As for your suggestions I was never fond of eastern nations.Still Baktria sounds tempting :-)
I thought of a Barbarian Nation, and as in vanilla I thought the Gaul will be too strong, Spanish ARE strong and since I saw nobody talks about Britons I opted for them.

TheLastDays - I had two battles in that campaing.The first I used the generals in skirmish mode (their javelin damage sucks too :-P).The purpose was to lure the enemy infantry and encircle them with the chariots hitting from the flanks.Didn't work as my infantry broke VERY fast.
The second time I thought I could strengthen the morale of my army, by having my three generals atacking from the flanks and the center and the infantry following them.It was a HEROIC melee charge.Failed too cause generals are pathetic in melee.
** The opponent had skirmishers too so it needed a lot of concentration not to get harassed by the enemy javelins.
I still have some more ideas, like having the generalas in skirmish, attracting the enemy javelins then having my skirmishers throwing at them.It will take a lot of MICRO but is worth the effort :-P

Athanaric - I had my first game in M/M.Battles in Medium are quite easy.I don't want to sound like an "RTW geek" but that's my impression.I also managed (with a lot of effort) in my VH/H with Kenon Hellenon, to build a mighty empire - I know economy brings glory after some certain point.Still I want to go for the ultimate challenge and I have read other people play in VH/VH too.So it must be viable.

Vollorix - out of curiosity, what was your phalanx depth? Was it the default maybe?

[NikosMaximilian]

The uber-navies of pirates in the Baltic get kind of annoying and unrealistic. I once had to face 7(!) fullstacks of pirates and a couple of stacks consisting of 4-5 units.

I deal with them this way:
-Place cursor over Caspian or Aral Sea.
-Open console
-Type "show_cursorstat", hit enter and watch those numbers
-Type "move_character Admiral Whoever" and the two numbers shown before.

[vartan]

While I certainly don't deny the existence of an active human mind as an opponent, if you are using lots of Drapanai, you certainly are going on the offensive and trying to make him react to your maneuvers by the merits of your aggressiveness. I've found in my MP battles(though admittedly almost all are in vanilla where units are more easily broken), that I often perform better in battles where I am the aggressor as I can disrupt my opponents gameplan by making the first aggressive moves.

Of course I don't profess to be very good at EB multi, I've played very little of it and only against a few friends. That said, I was just defending the Drap charge MP tactic as workable while also trying to make a case for them as most dominant european infantry.
What you claim about being the aggressor is true in EB MP as well. I can assure you that a vast majority of the time, EB MP battles have turned out in favor of the aggressor. I've always seen dynamics in EB MP battles similar to those in boxing matches.

The Eastern version of the levy phalanx is one of the best units in the game. They are sized 240 axemen first and pikemen second. You can literally zerg stuff to death with them online or run around and put the spears down only when you need them. Just have some of the guys stay in phalanx and pin and then just wheel around the flank with your massive numbers and cavalry wings to crush the enemy wings and then zerg the main heavy infantry body ^_^
Son of a gun is right. That's why we had to come up with the whole 'if you drop your pike, you lose it' line, albeit too late for the tournaments, if memory serves me right.

I did those mass pushes online to force phalanxes to be squares and people got mad at me.
They sure did :laugh4:

[athanaric]

Don't forget the Kluddobro! They're like the (slightly worse) Jugundhiz of britain. Who needs quality when you can outnumber the enemy 3 to 1? Whenever I play Casse I never build anything else, the fact that they're recruitable all over europe helps as well...
You mean Immanae. They're almost identical to Jugundiz. Kluddobro are actually the cheap swordsmen.



TheLastDays - I had two battles in that campaing.The first I used the generals in skirmish mode (their javelin damage sucks too :-P)Their damage is just normal. It's just that they have an inefficient missile output compared to the number of men in the unit. They do have a very generous ammo supply, though, so you can keep up missile fire throughout the entire battle.



Didn't work as my infantry broke VERY fast.Because you were playing on VH, where all AI forces get +7 attack and defence skill.



Failed too cause generals are pathetic in melee.Chariots are chargers, not melee fighters. Never have them get stuck un an infantry formation.



Athanaric - I had my first game in M/M.Battles in Medium are quite easy.So are battles on H and VH, because the AI stays the same. It just amasses stat boni on the "higher" difficulty levels. Yes that's right, RTW uses a cheating AI like some game from the 1980s.



I don't want to sound like an "RTW geek" but that's my impression.I also managed (with a lot of effort) in my VH/H with Kenon Hellenon, to build a mighty empire - I know economy brings glory after some certain point.Still I want to go for the ultimate challenge and I have read other people play in VH/VH too.So it must be viable.
VH battles distort your gaming experience to a point where you get false impressions of a unit's actual purpose. All your evaluations of a unit's usefulness or strengths and weaknesses are worth nothing because with VH, you're playing with an extreme handicap. That kind of stuff might be fun with WarCraft3, where you can set your own forces at 70% health just to show that you can win even with retarded units, but in a game that revolves around historical accuracy, it is a somewhat pointless exercise.

Suffice it to say that Celtic chariots, while difficult to control, are quite powerful. So are all other Briton units.

[vollorix]

@Ksifos: first, i had arranged my levy phalanx in 4-5 raws per unit. After most of them had been routed, and i could free a couple of my units, i arranged a real deep formation to counter the shieldwall; well, it helped only a bit, namely my units were able to hold their ground for a while, at least untill they were fighting 1 on 1, but those "stacked" Romans had still managed to break them. After the battle lines got a little bit scattered, and i still had at least 1 veteran phalanx holding its ground, i had to mass charge each of the Roman units at least twice to break them. Of course, i had bombarded them with my slingers from the rear, and have used some heavily depleted phalangitai as "finisher" units ( and those are really good at killing if unopposed ). IIRC, it was my faction leader ( not Pyrrhos, though ), who was leading that assault, so "he" could rally enough men back to fight ( and had a huge bodyguards numbers ofc, handy for the charges ), otherwise i would have lost the battle. But it felt like an actual "Pyrrhic victory" ^^

[Ksifos]

Athanaric - I replayed the Casse campaign (VH/VH :-P).Playing very conservative, I managed to create the United Kingdom (incl. Ireland) by 250BC.Not a time record but mostly following a slow progressing, "developing and conquering" plan.After that you have a strong economy and plenty of options.In my first game I made A LOT of mistakes.And that is natural because I had to adopt to the Casse playing style.It wasnt the difficulty level but my ignorance of how Britons should be played.That said, I have to admit I am quite impressed of their mobility, javelin damage and morale when having a general aside.At least versus Sweboz they dominate (Jugundai you say? :-P).

I am not aware of the bonuses you say.In fact I can't see those bonuses in game.On the other hand I can safely say that the AI is doing some very weird and precise manoevres so that he avoids misiles - you could call that a handicap but that's ok :-)

All in all, Britons are a morale dependent army.Without a general or an 'eagle-unit' things might get funky pretty easily.On the other hand the key unit for me so far are the slingers.They are deadly shooting at the back of enemies.Along with the general and Uirodusios they are "must have" in the army mix.
But that's because I haven't confronted stronger armies yet, with cavalry.That's where I will have to redesign tactics.And I can safely guess that late game I will need 2 or 3 stacks vs 1 roman, to get the edge.

Vollorix - makes sense ;-) Well those battles of drama is maybe the one of the greatest elements in EB.But is also when you wouldn't want the game to CTD on you, hehe.

[TheLastDays]

In one thing you are correct: Morale is everything, playing the Casse (and most barbarian factions for that matter), that's probably why they have Drwdae, Calawre (later Rycalawre :D) and Generals to bolster their morale and Uirodusios and again Generals to lower the opponent's morale...
Yep, they're mobile, are good skirmishers and used correctly they can stand their ground against Romans :P

I can't agree on the VH/VH approach though, at least not when trying to determine the strength/usefulness of a unit. I can "safely" assure you, that the AI does get the attack and defence boni and probably a morale bonus too (that might not be working ;) )... On the other hand I don't know what .exe you're playing but even on VH I have never seen the AI do a manouver that deserved a better label than "not completely retarded".
I for one don't see any change to the better in Battle AI by increasing the difficulty.

[moonburn]

to be fair thelastdays i saw the ai doing some correct manouvers many times

in phallanx vs phallanx batle if i can´t use tactical movements to manouver the ai phallanx would shread me to pieces i must admit i can´t use the phallanx in an offenssive way no matter what i try and in defensive way the ai tends to beat me if it was all down to peztharoi vs peztharoi

the ai biggest morronic movements is that sometimes they over complicate things by manouvering too much and when it´s time to fight my fresh troops have the advantage against the ai very tired troops

if you fight enough times against an oponent (and i mean enough like letting the breath and learn ) they start adopting more/better units to face your strategies wich again forçes you to inovate ofc if you blitz the hell out of them you´ll never see that and if you face the arche seulekids only on bridge batles you can´t see how their adjustment is an improvement

[fomalhaut]

i hate the ridiculous over maneuvering the AI sometimes does, it's just a huge waste of time.

and yeah, i've found Phalanx v Phalanx I always always lose, whether on offense or defense. I don't know what to do about it, i just take it until i can smash the AI Phalanx in the back.

[vartan]

i hate the ridiculous over maneuvering the AI sometimes does, it's just a huge waste of time.

and yeah, i've found Phalanx v Phalanx I always always lose, whether on offense or defense. I don't know what to do about it, i just take it until i can smash the AI Phalanx in the back.
There has been a study on this [1]. The AI phalangites will always be ordered to attack and will always remain in guard mode, that is for certain (I haven't seen a counter-example). Therefore your best bet is to do one of two things. If his phalangite is coming at yours, take yours off guard mode and do not order it to attack (it will auto-engage). If you are forced to move a phalangite to attack one of the AI's, turn guard on before ordering the attack. The former guard-off results in better results on average, but you have to be in a perfect position to receive the AI attack.

[1] https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8pgdrJqBnJBMTY1NTcxMTUtMWYwZC00MzA3LThhYWUtZjUzNWY1ODM3ZjY5&hl=en

[fomalhaut]

wow, glad you linked that thank you.

[ximxim]

@athanaric No, I meant the kluddobro. Imannae are nice as well, but have a much more spread out formation, making them less good line-troops (which is what I'm using them for, don't have any use for skirmishers).

[A_Dane]

Not to mention that, if you can't outflank them, silver shields and other elite pikemen are almost impossible to beat back with non-phalanx units.
I've had silver shields hold bridges and city streets against impossible odds. Most impressive feat was having a 2 bronze chevron silver shields unit holding a bridge practically by itself (only other units that scored kills in that battle were 2 units of toxotai) vs. a whole roman fullstack and losing under 10 men (on huge).

All Phalangite units are like that tbh. I remember when i first started playing on H/H I faced off with a medium phalanx (on huge, so 242 men or something). Pinned it down with some armenian spears, and charged 152 bodyguards, down hill, into their rear.
they they lost like 50 units, turned their spears around and began slaughtering my FM's -.-. After that I simply hunt down their general, kill him, and bum-rush their units, even elites flee when the general dies and they get outflanked by axemen..
Phalangites, any sort of them actually, are without a doubt amongst my favourite units, as they're bugged, being able to do a 360 degree turn and all :)

[fomalhaut]

the lack of an elite phalanx is what keeps me wary of Bactria... i have to have an elite phalanx. Silver Shields, Brazen Shields, Agema, Chaoma, Hanupim Alupim, all my favorite units. i usually only have one, and that's after a regular phalanx has turned into a silver chevron

[Geticus]

well according to this thread cost/benefit we should just have entire armies full of nothing but untrained adolescent males, die jugundiz :P

I'm not really saying that, just that 3 and 4 chevron Jugundiz are the best basic core infantry troop in Europe due to the versatility of the skirmisher-spearman platform, their cost, and the power that comes from all the chevrons. I'm still curious what good Lusotannan players would say because I think that Luso Ambushers and Celtiberian javelineers have some advantages due to their huge numbers, but Jugundiz have the best price-point and 4 chevrons are very hard to beat.

So Jugundiz make IMO an optimal basic core building block of the army. Pure 3 or 4 chevron Jugundiz spam stacks are strong in themselves, 10 stacks of Jugundz are dirt cheap and they can conquer most any Eleutheroi city in Europe. But put say 6 Jugundz, 6 spearmen/swordsmen, 5-6 archer spearmen, an FM and a couple pikemen reserves and you have an extremely cost effective army with huge numbers that owns most cavalry and can surround and slaughter just about any infantry army. The numbers are just hard to deal with- 3,500 man (huge unit size) elite Sweboz infantry hordes based on Jugundiz are hard to beat. So if anything in Europe can deal with it I am all ears. Getai are great but they take a long time to really develop the Level 4 MICs and get the Thraikian peltasts going. Sweboz after the initial blitz all you need to conquer eleutheroi cities are cheap Jugundz and FMs. Mainly I think Romans played right with their high armor and shield ratings and good infantry cost/value might vie with the Sweboz for supreme infantry. Perhaps Lusos played right as well but they take a lot longer to max out their chevrons.

[TheLastDays]

Well, I never said, the AI is not doing "correct manouvers", I said, they never do anything better than a correct manouver, I mean, they never surprised me...

And, from what I can tell, the AI didn't get better when increasing the difficulty

[Ksifos]

In my Maks campaign having built the level 4 regional MIC in Singidunum, I got access to Boi swordsmen.These guys are 202 per unit, have 22 def and 13 att and cost only 300 mnai per season.Haven't used them yet but from the numbers they seem a real bargain.

[vollorix]

They are pretty cool, but have no "celtic longswords", instead they use 0.13 lethality kind of "gladius". They are disciplined, so no easy routing ( 11 morale ), but only "trained", with not so tough formation. Their attack is only "12", iirc, but their javeline range is longer than that of Botroas ( northern guys ). Imo, it´s the discipline that makes them quite unique, because even Milnaht are imetuous, though with much better morale value. The only "problem" is, once you are in the position to hire them playing a Celtic faction, you already own half of the Europe, except Iberia and Italy, perhaps, if you take it slowly. I can´t wait to play Boii in EB2, but actually it would be quite cool to replace Casse with Boii in EB1, imho ( more action, more opportunities, more fun! ).

[fomalhaut]

i just realized this in my now finished aedui campaign!
i was super disappointed to find that the Boii and Lugjowie are basically the 'end game' units. i loooove the boii swordsmen @Ksifos, not only are they versatile and dependable but they are probably the coolest looking swordsmen in the game besides Alpine (aedui skin with the cloak, so cool)

[Ksifos]

Another great bonus they have is combat bonus at woods which in EB is rare.

I wanted to mention this before but always kept forgetting:
In my Casse campaign (VH/VH) I recall of a battle where odds were in favor of Romanii something like 7 to 10.They had a really good army, with a lot of Pedite and Triarii.These units are a pain in the ...well you know.My whole army was inside a thick forest, so visibility was low.In fact the hardest thing is to move carefully as enemy units hide almost instantly.I had the feeling of a sound defeat.To my surprise the tide of battle turned in our favor as if we had a SECRET combat bonus.But all Briton units dont have any at least in the unit card, only expert at hiding which is different.I really dont know.Maybe the "combat bonus in woods" has a range and becomes visible in the unit card on a certain value?

About Boii: Their cost is 371/season but is still cheap.I currently use them as garrison but can't wait to bring them in my eastern front where AS and Ptolemaioi, while they are at war, they keep sending stack after stack against me.I can imagine them ambusing inside woods and flanking enemy phalanxes :-)

I have a neat idea of producing a pure "Barbarian" stack, consisting of the best units (like Boii, Scordisci, Thraikioi Peltastai, Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi, etc) and bring it in Minor Asia.This would be FUN!

[fomalhaut]

i love using different cultures to fight eachother, like Indians against Ethiopians or Europeans, Barbarians versus Carthaginians.

i think all barbarian soldiers have a combat bonus in woods

[Rahl]

Maybe the "combat bonus in woods" has a range and becomes visible in the unit card on a certain value?
IIRC from my "studies" of the EDU a bonus of 1 isn't shown on the cards, only if they have 2+ bonus in woods/snow/against cavalry etc. you can see that on the unit card. But I can tell you what made the difference in your battle: Maluses aren't shown on the cards but most of the heavy infantry has these, especially the non-barbarian one. So while your troops maybe didn't had bonuses in the woods they had at least no maluses but the enemy had huge ones.

[Ksifos]

Rahl - Well that would explain the outcome of the battle but... aren't bonuses, maluses and terrain calculated in the battle preview? Just curious because if true the AI odds should have been lower.

[vollorix]

AFAIK, it´s the armour value ( which get´s approx. doubled in the calculation, iirc ) that matters most in autoresolve. And the armour of PO and Triarii goes beyond any scale compared to celtic one ( even Solduros can´t match them ).

[Ksifos]

Vollorix - About Boii, you were right their stats are 12/21.It's just that I can recruit them with one chevron of experience (hence the +1) and now I am building a blacksmith (+1 more).So overall they will start with 14/23.Not bad at all!

Just got access to Cordinau Orca (Elite Scordisci Infantry), small unit per size but their stats are superb (15Att / 30 Def).They are easily compared to top roman units.Similar unit that comes to mind, the british Rycalawre has less Att and is more defensive orientated.

[fomalhaut]

but honestly, they are ugly as all sin. they look like ancient american football players in silly trousers

[Ksifos]

but honestly, they are ugly as all sin. they look like ancient american football players in silly trousers
True.But when they cut through enemies, they look so beautiful :-P

[Rahl]

Rahl - Well that would explain the outcome of the battle but... aren't bonuses, maluses and terrain calculated in the battle preview? Just curious because if true the AI odds should have been lower.
Vollorix already explained the most important part. The autocalc is crap, the AI generals often have way more stars what gives them better battle odds but we all know they can't use them properly. I'm not sure if the terrain is included in the battle odds, height maybe, but just think about battles at river crossings... I'm playing a Sweboz in Bastarnolandam campaing atm and have abushed many armoured HA armies of the Sauros, mostly with battle odds of 1:2 or 3 and won easily even without any armoured units and I'm not experienced with ambushing and hate the lack of sight in the woods. The AI could have won some of them too I believe.

Just got access to Cordinau Orca (Elite Scordisci Infantry), small unit per size but their stats are superb (15Att / 30 Def).They are easily compared to top roman units.Similar unit that comes to mind, the british Rycalawre has less Att and is more defensive orientated.
The Cordinau Orca have low lethality (1.2 IIRC) they are worse then other celtic elites even with their 2 extra armour, I changed them in my game because they're less cost-effective then most other elites and especially then other regionals.

[war is hell]

Cordinau Orca only have a lethality of .12 though, I found them kind of underwhelming. Maybe I used them wrong though.

As far as most dominant infantry well that's a good question. I just wrapped up a Casse campaign so I'm gonna have to go with Milnaht
1247

Milnaht shred through anything that's not elite. Theyre not terribly expensive, they hold up against anything, very hardy so they'll eventually out last whatever they're fighting, etc. Just an all round good unit.

[vollorix]

Plus: Cardinau Orca got not even "hardy", aka good stamina attribute. And since the lethality drops with loss of stamina ( as does the morale ), they are best to hold the line, are quite missile proof ( shield and armour at best ), or block some narrow passage. In vanilla they´d be superb due to lethality = 1 and very short battles, but in EB, where fighting takes a while... well. Also, you can utilize them in autoresolving battles - playing some "underarmoured" faction, just put a couple of these units directly after you general bodyguards ;)

[fomalhaut]

that Milnaht looks like Belgae Swordsmen of the true Aedui, i loooved them in my armies. Celtic units are so varied and plenty, what a great roster. Belgae are badass and don't need to be naked or on pcp to be that way (not to offend my friends the gaesatae)

[Ludens]

I'm not sure if the terrain is included in the battle odds, height maybe, but just think about battles at river crossings...

According to the developers the auto-calc algorithm does take terrain into account. Or are you talking about the graphic display of battle odds on the pre-battle screen and next to the map-view during battles?

[Ksifos]

I started looking at units' details because you all speak of lethality for example.I tried searching (tbh not thoroughly) for some info about those hidden stats.So that I can understand how important is attack, lethality, morale, training etc

Let me give you one example.All spearmen/pikemen I checked have a lethality of 1, which means 1 hit=1kill.But ingame I don't get that impression.On the contrary I think both type of units are SLOW killers.Again, swordsmen seem to kill much faster.And all have considerably LOWER lethality.So I would really love to understand the whole concept a bit better, cause I dont believe lethality itself is the most important factor.

To anyone with expertise in this kind of info, I would appreciate some links or explanation on those attributes.

[vollorix]

@Ksifos: you should read this one: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344
It will help you understand almost everything about EDU and beyond.

[Rahl]

According to the developers the auto-calc algorithm does take terrain into account. Or are you talking about the graphic display of battle odds on the pre-battle screen and next to the map-view during battles?
About that one on the pre-battle screen. Even the one during the battles differs from that one. I think the odds on the pre-battle screen count the troops and the general and not much more. Seeing the difference between the campaign map-terrain and the battle map it wouldn't be able to calculate that correctly.

[Ksifos]

Thanks Vollorix for the source.

Do you know what the const1 parameter in the "chance to kill" formulae represents?

[vartan]

Thanks Vollorix for the source.

Do you know what the const1 parameter in the "chance to kill" formulae represents?
I think tests were undertaken to approximate a mathematical model for the fighting that closely resembles what CA used. Variables can use things like stat values from game. You could find the constant that makes the equation best match the actual results, if that makes any sense.

[Ksifos]

What values does this constant takes? A range would suffice :-)

[vartan]

What values does this constant takes? A range would suffice :-)
Look up both Aradan and phalanx_man. Either or both will discuss this in further detail better than I could (phalanx_man is likely to help you if you're willing to read the text).

[TheLastDays]

About that one on the pre-battle screen. Even the one during the battles differs from that one. I think the odds on the pre-battle screen count the troops and the general and not much more. Seeing the difference between the campaign map-terrain and the battle map it wouldn't be able to calculate that correctly.

Actually the pre-battle odds are at least supposed to evaluate tropp strength, troop quality and experience, general's ability and so they are supposed to really give an account of the odds in the battle. The "troopmeter" in the battle system only counts numbers as far as I know

[Rahl]

The "troopmeter" in the battle system only counts numbers as far as I know
I'm sure it counts height and stamina too. Sometimes I fought only with the cavalry of the FMs, mostly against small rebel armies. I tired them out and took higher ground to charge them and I saw chances in the "troopmeter" doing this before I attackt them. I'm quite sure it counts troop quality too.

[TheLastDays]

Yes, I have now tested it and have to say you're right, sorry for the misleading statement ;)

[Ksifos]

Just finished my Maks campaign, really enjoyed it.

A small update since my last posts.Bois infantry may look good in stats but ingame fail to impress.In fact I found them breaking quite easily.

Cordinau Orca on the other hand is an excellent unit.In a siege battle I had one of them on one wall plus a romphaiaphoroi on the other wall.Both units managed over 1200 kills against opponents such as Klerouchon Agema, Galatai Klerouchoi and Klerouchoi Phalangitai.
** In that same battle I lost almost three units of Bois who were unable to hold their position and broke very fast :-(

Also tested them in the battlefield against a Klerouchon Agema, "head to head" and managed to hold them with ease while other units encircled and finally butchered the Ptolemaic Elites.

This unit is simply superb in holding the line and with decent killing ratio.Plus due to high defense they are very good choice for autocalc battles.

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Line infantry: probably marian and imperial cohorts, due to their insane recruitment area and cost/effectiveness. Thureophoroi would be second best choise cause they are good defensive infantry with good AOR, in europe greece and italy as far away as massalia. Pezoi Brettioi should also be mentioned due to the central position of italy, which allows to move them be easily moved to conflict areas (+ all factions can recruit them).

Conserning the claim that jugunthiz would be most dominant infantry: defining dominant brings conclusion that dominating infantry should be able to stand their ground against statistically superior infantry even without numbers andvantage or superior support troops, this jugunthiz can't deliver even with those starting chevrons, throw a unit of bataroas/milnacht/neitos against them and they break easily. Their high morale also comes from the great morale bonuses the sweboz generals get, so nothing too awosome on their morale either. Good supporting unit, but the real lineholder unit for the sweboz is still duguntiz.

[vollorix]

@Ksifos:
When defending walls a unit almost doesn´t deplete stamina - that is why Orcas are so efficient ( insane armour + def. skill + halfway decent lethality ). I find it somewhat unrealistic that such elite warrior unit is not well enough physically conditioned... same goes to Arjos, while Triarii, imo, are ok, since they are old veterans, the last line, not ment to fight at all, actually.
-> to make it a bit more fun, i´ve personaly changed the stamina values of units like "Classical Hoplites", "Cardinau Orca", "Thorakitai" and some others adding "hardy" in their description; they still tire quite fast, and do not replenish stamina too quick, but i´m not condemed to use them in defence only anymore.

Right now i´m playing a "Boii" campaign, using Arverni faction ( left Aedui alone, made Eburonum the starting settlement - bit cheating, no modding, though, - and made sure most of my adopted FM´s are Boii ), and i have to say that "Boii Cingetos" really impressed me.
I also have to add, that my EDU has been altered quite a lot ( -4 spear attack for most infantry, changed lethality for swords a bit: 0,1 -> 0,13... 0,13 -> 0,15 and some other indivudual changes; i find that prolonged EB battles must be adressed = slightly higher lethality because the drop of the same after a while resulting in utter stabbing instead of actual killing ).

[Ksifos]

IMO In wall battles stamina isnt a factor both for the defender and the attacker.

As for Bois I found them very "morale sensitive".Maybe as most barbarian units, they need a morale booster near them.Because their stats (visible) are excellent.

[vollorix]

Boii Morale = 11 and they are disciplined ( + trained, but this is about tightness of a unit ); perhaps my impressions come from the fact that i use BI.exe where they can make a shield wall.

[Ksifos]

Boii Morale = 11 and they are disciplined ( + trained, but this is about tightness of a unit ); perhaps my impressions come from the fact that i use BI.exe where they can make a shield wall.
Well shieldwall is a considerable bonus.That explains what you experienced :-)

Right now I am into a Romanii campaign, and Principe have quite impressed me.Only question is that they fight with spear ?! Is that historically accurate?

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Well shieldwall is a considerable bonus.That explains what you experienced :-)

Right now I am into a Romanii campaign, and Principe have quite impressed me.Only question is that they fight with spear ?! Is that historically accurate?

Camillan Principes fight with spears polybians with gladius, concerning historical accuracy I could find with google search only this site (wikipedia also gives same answer, but one would have to look for the sources to be 100 % sure) mentioning spears, it also says the principes were armed like hastati after pyrhic war so I wouldn't cite this site.

http://www.geocities.ws/markconz/dbm.camillans.html

[Lazy O]

Boii Infantry while being nicely spaced and looking good on paper, do not have the killing power of Botroas, and neither the staying power of a line holder like the similarly priced Classical Hoplites, and fail to make a case for themselves in any army other than as a filler unit.

[Arjos]

I remember using them as flankers, iirc their weapon is quite deadly and they could cut through the enemy quickly...

[Lazy O]

Bataroas are better.

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Only in three categories: javelin attack, secondary lethality and training (if unit compare is to be trusted)

They have different uses so they really can't be compared, boii are celtic line holders with their good armor/shield /numbers and botroas high lethality assault infantry/flankers. Neither is even close to being amongst most dominant infantry in europe.