View Full Version : So I bumped up the difficulty....Now I understand
Archer spam.
But before I get into that I'd like to say I'm having a blast with STW2. I skipped Napolean after ETW left a bad taste in my mouth, and I believe TW is more well suited to melee based armies anyway. I can say I enjoyed ETW but was overrall disappointed.
Enough about that.
I'm no expert, but I consider myself decent at these titles, and rarely venture beyond normal difficulty. However Normal campaigns as the Mori, Date, Shimazu, Chosokabe, and Oda were a cinch once I got beyond the start. Both Takeda and Uesugi continue to pose a significant challenge on normal.
I decided to try Shimazu on hard. Conquered Ito and then Sagara showed up and beseiged Satsuma with a stack of 15 yari archers, 3 yari ashigaru, and 2 generals. There isn't much an early balanced army can do against 15 archers period. Is this the type of thing one runs into on the harder difficulties and that's why there's a dirth of army compostion mods out there?
Archer spam is typically the worst in the early game since the AI values the Bow over the Spear in its decision making. Though it's rare to see more than 7-8 archers in an AI army, it does happen from time to time.
To answer your question: Sometimes! It depends on what the AI can make. After turn 30 or so I notice the AI's armies becoming more heavily melee focused, but that's just my experience.
Dead Guy
04-10-2011, 20:46
You're definitely more vulnerable to that sort of thing early on. Also it seems to me Kyoto is always a full stack of Samurai archers when I get there =) Not assaulting that one when the walls are manned by ~15 Bow Samurai.
The only way I could get past the 2 region starting phase with Shimazu was by splitting my forces sort of evenly between the two castles, fought two siege defences against two full stacks, one from Shoni on the eastern side and one from the clan that starts with horses at Satsuma, then concentrated my forces a bit on the western side and pretty much blitzed all the way around Kyushu :p That was easily the hardest part of the campaign, as per usual in total war.
The thing is, that won't work very well when the AI brings a stack of archers to your fort, unless you've got a ton of archers shooting back.
I understand it is difficult to fight the archers, but that is kind of the point isn't it? The AI does make a smart move there. Usually we are not happy with an AI that makes stupid moves, right?
I think the way to beat archer heavy armies on the open field is to try to fight them in a forest. Get some sword infantry and screen them with spears and try to approach in a forest. An ambush fight would be the best way to make sure the AI can't easily retreat to an open hill or such location.
Rothe,
My approach to the battle was exactly as you have stated. However I think short of having at least four light cavalry units along for the ride the situation purely hopeless. This was fairly early in the campaign and my 2 armies consisted of 6 yari ashigaru, 4 bow ashigaru, 2 katana samurai and 1 yari samurai.
I'm not complaining about the difficulty persay. More just that the focus of the various mods in building balanced armies w/ more samurai make sense. Additionally I'm touching on the opinion floating around that archers are a little too effective.
I'm satisfied with play at normal although it's a little disappointing that in most cases victory is assured.
Another thing that this thread highlights is the exceptional usefulness of agents in this game. Making good use of ninjas to scout out enemy armies before attacking (or when preparing to defend) is just plain smart. If you can learn a turn or two ahead that you're going to be facing a full stack of archers, then it's not too hard, if you have the resources, to organize an army designed to beat them.
I'm finding this game to be the first Total War game that I can't skate through. You really have to think and plan ahead, and make sure that you balance economy and military. And you also have to think ahead to your enemies' strengths and weaknesses when planning your economy, your military infrastructure and your individual armies. Right now in my Date campaign, I'm struggling to overcome a stalemate with two enemy clans that are practically steamrolling all of Japan. My economy is stretched to the limit just in supporting the units I have on the map, and I'm trying to gain some ground and find a chokepoint that I can defend to free up resources for my next leapfrog forward. I've already had to deal with a naval-invasion surprise attack from a previously neutral clan behind my front lines. And my enemies are bringing stacks with more and more samurai, while I'm struggling to keep my economy in the black. This is hard! I'm loving it!
A snarky response would be to not just scout but use your uber ninja to sabotage their army. While they're stuck in your territory suffering attrition, bypass them and capture their capital. Then their stack disappears in a puff of magic.
Another idea is to fight cheese with more cheese. A great counter to enemy bow ashi spam is to simply spam more bows of your own, preferably in a bow maker province. The umbrella of death that comes from a dozen bow ashi units will often rout even samurai before melee contact.
I would like to own an umbrella of death. For when it's raining.
Cecil XIX
04-14-2011, 05:49
A snarky response would be to not just scout but use your uber ninja to sabotage their army. While they're stuck in your territory suffering attrition, bypass them and capture their capital. Then their stack disappears in a puff of magic.
This doesn't seem to happen in Shogun 2. In my last Legendary Chosokabe game I took both Iyo and Sanuki while the Kono and Sogo Daimyos where still in the field. Neither of them disappeared, rather they were labeled "Kono/Sogo Rebels" from then on. A nice addition!
This doesn't seem to happen in Shogun 2. In my last Legendary Chosokabe game I took both Iyo and Sanuki while the Kono and Sogo Daimyos where still in the field. Neither of them disappeared, rather they were labeled "Kono/Sogo Rebels" from then on. A nice addition!
I haven't figured it out yet but sometimes the stack disappears (major/minor factions?). At any rate, the rebels are far less dangerous (they won't venture outside of the province they're in).
Papewaio
04-15-2011, 01:04
So non-wandering ronin armies. Seems a tad ironic and not very sporting.
Is there any triggers to spawn legendary ronin from such stacks... Love to seea Red Beard ronin figure going up against the lowest honor clans.
I skipped Napolean after ETW left a bad taste in my mouth
I suggest you get Napoleon eventually. It's more Shogun 2 than Empire. It's in the same era as Empire but superior in pretty much every area: performance, stability, unit variety (its on par with Rome and Medieval II), atmosphere, polish, etc. You name it.
I suggest you get Napoleon eventually. It's more Shogun 2 than Empire. It's in the same era as Empire but superior in pretty much every area: performance, stability, unit variety (its on par with Rome and Medieval II), atmosphere, polish, etc. You name it.
That's true, but for some reason Napoleon never grabbed me despite being my favorite period of military history. I think it is because it feels like a straight up slugging match (rather like the original STW). By contrast, ETW has much more interesting diplomacy and choice over where/when to expand (rather like the original MTW and most subsequent TWs).
I did not get on with ETW when I first got it - I think partly because my computer was not good enough, but also maybe it had not been patched enough. But with a new computer and fully patched, it seems pretty decent. To the OP - it might be worth a second look to see if the same applies to you.
That's true, but for some reason Napoleon never grabbed me despite being my favorite period of military history. I think it is because it feels like a straight up slugging match (rather like the original STW). By contrast, ETW has much more interesting diplomacy and choice over where/when to expand (rather like the original MTW and most subsequent TWs).
I did not get on with ETW when I first got it - I think partly because my computer was not good enough, but also maybe it had not been patched enough. But with a new computer and fully patched, it seems pretty decent. To the OP - it might be worth a second look to see if the same applies to you.
Back at you-
if I can expand on my ETW experience. Overall I found a game that was mildly enjoyable. Fully patched and with Darthmod it was a good experience, however I can say that I think CA's talents, and TW in general lie with HtH combat not ranged combat. It's just this game was brought to maturity at what 18 months after release? Before 1.3 I couldn't help but laugh at all the British campaign guides suggesting the amount of troops to leave in the British isles, when really none (aside from those to quell rebellion) were necessary.
Honestly the Napoleanic era doesn't interest me as much as Rome, Medieval, or Shogun. Not that I'm shy of guns (I collect WWII and WWI rifles) I'd love to see a game around the American Civil War, but I don't think the ACW fits the TW mold and would in fact be a pretty poor game.
I'm loving Shogun 2 TW as I feel the series has really returned to it's roots. Similar factions with minor advantages but none being ridiculously overpowered.
al Roumi
04-15-2011, 11:36
I'm loving Shogun 2 TW as I feel the series has really returned to it's roots. Similar factions with minor advantages but none being ridiculously overpowered.
Good points that I'd agree with. Bar the disgruntled boycott of Napoleon becasue of ETW, I also was not enamoured with the idea of mini campaigns. TW for me is about sandbox alternative history. CA set up a context and a narrative and let you loose to pain the map red, blue or whatever the colour your chosen faction.
I completely agree about TW being better with melee than direct fire. My ETW experiences are haunted by memories of units firing into the ground at units within their range, but over the brow of a hill. Never mind the wierd targetting of artillerly at the extremities of units -not the centre. At least this last has been seemingly fixed in TWS2.
Playing TWS2 I'm more aware than ever of how much better ETW could have been. Many opportunities were unfortunately missed IMO.
/ETW rant
On the OP re archer spam, if on the assault, a skirmishing line of Yumi ashi can be a good way to draw enemy fire while you rush your Yari ashis forward to fix the enemy troops in melee, following up with your prefered mix of shock troops (Sword samurai, cavalry, No Nachi, Naginata Samurai/Monks...).
Overcoming enemy numbers with a smaller force will always be a challenge however. The key will be to provoke a rout, so do all you can (demoralise army, assasinate generals) on the campaign map first, and then maximise your forces on the enemy's weak point -this could be the general (if you can get a spear unit onto him), or a blob of ashigarus (if you can hit them with sword samurais or equivalent).
Ultimately, the best way to hold off superior enemy numbers is in a siege defence. Ashigaru archers with whatever melee backup you can give them can shatter much larger enemy armies.
Dead Guy
04-16-2011, 08:49
So I bumped up the difficulty to legendary. Now I understand... why Oda are eliminated on turn 1! Because I believe I made the same mistake the AI does. Went after the rebels, didn't wipe them, followed them and wiped them, end turn, guys to the north waltz in and take my castle town, dead. =)
Started over, put all my troops in the castle, AI does the same thing as before, Tokugawa marches up but doesn't make it to the castle, the guys to the north make it to the castle and attack, joined by Tokugawa. I massacre both armies by bulling 2 units at a time from the Tokugawa passive reenforcements. Rebels raid my port.
A few turns in I get the opportunity to attack Tokugawa so I steal their province, but then a pretty big stack of 3 bows and ~7 yari ashis walks up to the capital which I've left 2 depleted archer units and 2 not so good-looking Yari Ashis in. Never had a closer battle. I had about 50 men left I think, had to fight his general on foot iside the castle because his archers pushed me away from the walls, then run back behind the Tonshu, his archers start scaling the walls and I rush back and finally break them a the walls. Wow I was relieved when I clicked End Battle after that one!
Now I'm afraid to leave any of my three regions without a major garrison!
I thought I was done with Shogun for a while but legendary adds a new level to it with the no saving thing. I think I'm going to have to alter my playstyle a bit. Try to fight as many siege defenses as possible with my cheap ashigarus until I can field a proper army and defeat the AI in the field.
As Oda, you can actually kill the rebels on the first turn and still move back into the castle. First attack w/ field army. Then, once rebels retreat, move field army into reinforcement range and then use your daimyo to attack. Crush the rebels and then move everyone back to castle to face a joint siege, killing off entire enemy armies in between the turn.
Next turn, send a lone archer to shoot up the Saito force while everyone else goes down south to eliminate Tokugawa. Then keep pushing towards Imagawa etc. You can leave northern provinces of Owari and Mino virtually undefended at this point. Your capital should be cranking your dirt cheap ashigaru nonstop. You want to get to at least 2 stack ASAP.
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