Mongol-Korean Forces have only 6 types of Units.

[Yas Terazawa]

BTW,
There r only 6 Unit types in Mongol-Korean Force.
Doesn't it seems to be unfair?
There r 13 units in Japanese side..

I 've heard, there M-K Force 'd have # types of Cavs. and some Chinese units(archers, army, ...).
They 've not been revealed about that more units..
Is that A Hidden Card?
Or that's all, only 6 units?

THere 'd be needed some more chinese force's assist, I think..

What d u think about that?

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http://shogun.x-y.net/images/kesc.gif
Eastern Charisma...

[This message has been edited by Yas Terazawa (edited 06-30-2001).]

[NARF]

Hmmm, well maybe thats all they have. I mean mongols arent exactly he most civilised people now are they. In some stroies I recall hearing about the only the Mongol Horse Archers never their heavy cavalry.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

6 unit types indeed sounds like too few, but when you think about it, they cover all the required aspects quite decently. There aren't much more "historical" units that could have been added - of course, there could be Chinese spearmen as well as Korean spearmen, but what's the difference? They're all just like ashis anyway.

[NARF]

Im also confused about the thunder bombers. Is that like a grenade or what. How will it be animated?

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Like a grenade Narf. It will be the first unit used in this game with an area effect (like a cannon/bomb exploding).

But they will be unreliable (explose in your hands, wrong throw and exploses in YOUR unit ranks).

That should be funny....

[Vanya]

A couple of sanda bomas is all you will ever need! You wont need no toga-wearing monks, you wont need to armor-plated sling-blades. All you will need are sanda bomas and grave-diggers. Unless of course, you choose to let the dead lie where they fall. Then you dont need gravediggers.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

And, in the rare event of your sanda boma blowing himself up by accident, rest assured that the porcelain gods in the Mother Country (couldnt resist! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ) will be hard at work forging more works of incendiary art!

[Roman Totale XVII]

Yep, right on the button. The designers seem to want to portray a Hollywood/fantasy type image of Japanese history which is detrimental to both gameplay fun and the appeal of historical immersion.

They want to portray the 'Mongols' as a seething undisciplined horde with few troop types and dominated by cavalry.

Kubilai Khan's Yuan forces that attacked Japan were not the same as the classic Ordu that swept across Europe. Mongol cavalry were heavily outnumbered by the Chinese infantry types they brought plus some Koreans. The so-called 'Korean infantry' in the game are actually various ex-Sung Chinese and Jurchen/Northern Chinese. On the Mongol side they could have had:
1) Mongol Guard Cav
2) Mongol Heavy Cav
3) Mongol Light Cav
4) Jurchen Heavy Cav
5) Jurchen Light Cav
6) Northern Chinese Crossbowmen
7) Northern Chinese Swordsmen
8) Northern Chinese Archers
9) Northern Chinese skirmishers with javelins
10) Ex-Sung Chinese skirmish spearsmen and shields
11) Ex-Sung Chinese skirmish archers with pavises
12) Ex-Sung Chinese crossbowmen
13) Ex-Sung Chinese Firelance detachments
14) Chinese thunder bombers (probably primitive catapult artillery but not known for certain)
15) Korean Cav
16) Korean spearsmen
17) Korean archers

...well not ALL of them obviously but you get what I mean

OTOH, The Japanese get a whole load of units that are either never existed or have travelled back in time 350 years

Naginata Cav never really existed (apart from a couple of 14th Cent horse archers that have been handed a nag by a foot attendant in an old picture scroll...).
Battlefield Ninja are fantasy. Kensai don't belong on the 13th Century battlefield but in 'wandering samurai' movies. Ashigaru Crossbowmen are TOTAL invention - should have been 'ashigaru (or 'foot attendant') archers' instead. All Cavalry should be purely heavy horse archers. No-dachi units completely out of place.

Does this matter? Probably not to the majority who don't give a fig for history anyway. I can already hear some guy feverishly hammering on his keyboard; 'ITS JUST A GAME. IT DOESN'T MATTER. ITS JUST FOR VARIETY AND BALANCE!!'

...So why don't they just go the whole way and stick in a few oriental dragons and Oni demons too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Or they could just allow the option to exclude/create units and keep everyone happy but maybe that's a bit too radical http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Roman Totale XVII (edited 07-03-2001).]

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Roman Totale XVII:
...Does this matter? Probably not to the majority who don't give a fig for history anyway. ...So why don't they just go the whole way and stick in a few oriental dragons and Oni demons too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ...
[/QUOTE]

Hey! I have some old Fig Newtons lying around here somewhere... help yourself if you want. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

As for the Oni demon thing, I'm sure there will be those that argue that such creatures already lurk in the dark recesses of the community! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Myth or hype? You be the judge... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Puzz3D]

I wonder how they managed to get the crossbowmen on the wrong side? Histoical accuracy seems to have taken a big hit in MI. I think it's the developers marketing of the game which creates this expectation of high historical accuracy. I doubt that we'll ever see an option to add/remove units. Units and their parameters seem to be set in stone which is good for those who spend a lot of time fine tuning their tactics. One of the developers said that the units are part of the main executable file, and not easily changed.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Nelson]

Let's face it. The majority of players like Shogun for the tactical system, not the history or the setting. 14th century Europe or 16th century Japan is of little import. The tactical inclusion of fatigue, morale, weather and terrain are what guys enjoy most. The units are just units. In fact, the more units the better so as not to be boring. The designers knew people would miss guns so they put the crossbowmen in to replace them while pretending to cover up with a fig leaf of accuracy. Balance among units is more important to players, especially on-line players, than historic fidelity.

Besides, how many buyers know bupkus about Japanese history? Expansion packs need new, exciting units to sell. Business is business. Hell, it could be worse! At least the mounted musketeers never made it! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

I wish CA well and I know I'll buy the add on. In fact I hope it sells like hotcakes. But no doubt about it, history took a shot to the groin.

[Kraellin]

i'm gonna keep my mouth closed on this one; the history buffs already think i'm the anti-christ. but...but...

lemme just say this, i'd have preferred a feudal japan 'construction set' when it comes to units. that would have, or could have, satisfied all. or least come close.

K.

[Roman Totale XVII]

Quote: 'At least the mounted musketeers never made it!'

Hehe, shouldn't that be mounted FEMALE musketeers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif (Kessen reference)

Kraellin: totally agree with your construction kit idea http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Also, I agree with the need for a new exciting variety of units which is why I suggested some extras the Mongols could have had - how about those Chinese firelances? Glad the thunder-bombs made it.

Actually I don't want to appear a stuffy, no-fun history purist. I enjoy playing fantasy games too. Come to think about it, my point about demons, dragons and magic is semi-serious http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif All those things appear in the old Japanese war chronicles so they are in keeping with period immersion!

Running with the 'construction kit' idea I would like to be able to create exciting fantasy games with a variety of units but at the same time I would mostly prefer to play 'what if' semi-simulations where I face a similar set of circumstances to those that historically occurred. That for me is the 'fun' of close-to-historical accuracy modified by a degree of game balance. We just love this tactical engine so much we just want more stuff!

Cheers
Roman

[Koga No Goshi]

I understand what you're saying about most people liking Shogun for its strong tactical side, but just remember there are those of us who would have bought this game whether the tactical side was what it is now or a bunch of numbered X's and O's moving across a 2d battlefield, because we love Japanese history. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'm not here to preach about the evils of Mongol Expansion for not conforming to history. Hell, in the 14th century sengoku type daimyo didn't exist. It was still a bugyo imperial system which was court/Shogun appointed. And the "samurai" of 14th century Japan were a much different breed than those of sengoku Japan. But hey, it is a game.

Not to offend the Mongol fanatics out there, I would have much rather have seen just a bigger expansion to Sengoku Japan's setting. There's more than enough that the first game didn't cover. Lancers would be interesting (different from yari, we're talking 16foot spears or longer. They would NOT be vulnerable except to some missle fire and in h2h only if attacked from flank or rear. Enemy simply can't walk through a few hundred lances). But oh well, that doesn't mean I'm not going to buy Mongol Expansion and love it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[Kraellin]

roman,

i was going to make a smart *ssed comment about the dragons and demons and would be glad to have had such included, but i was afraid the history guys would roast me on an open pit ;)

and now i'll ask a serious question based on my poor knowledge of such things and poor references on such things. in the movie braveheart (and i can hear the history guys groan already) the use of heavy cav had no counter unless you also had heavy cav until the LONG spears were utilized which were braced against the ground to absorb the impact of a charging horse. so my question is, regardless of the accuracy of the braveheart movie, how long were the yari spears as depicted in the current game? were they truly effective against heavy horse as they seem to be in the game or is this a 'game license' thing we are just asked to assume is accurate? my impression of the yaris is that those spears werent nearly as long as the ones depicted in braveheart and therefore would they be as effective against heavy horse or not?

i know a lot of my impressions are based on inaccurate portrayals in movies and games so what was the truth of the matter? would a yari samurai stop a heavy horse in truth or is this just a fiction based on making a better gaming experience?

and as a follow up, since guns are in question as to how many would have been really made and used at that time, what about horses in general? were they really that prevalent in feudal japan or is this also a bit of game license? and i mean ANY horse. were there really that many horses around in that time period in japan? i always had the impression that horses were pretty rare in that land at that time.

K.

[Magyar Khan]

Why do u ever need another unit where u can field a mongol horsemen?

[Kraellin]

hehehe...if ya ever wanna find magy, just quietly say 'horse' or 'mongol' and he'll pop up :) i think 'khan' would work also.

ok vanya, i think it's time to begin converting our northern wayward heathen brothers to the true faith.

K.

[Yas Terazawa]

OK,
Indeed, There is No need for more Units assistence, to Defeat You guys Jap' soldiers and Occupy Japan Island..
I just wanna to show Better Look with my Variable Units.

Time to conquer the Japan Island.

[This message has been edited by Yas Terazawa (edited 07-05-2001).]

[Yas Terazawa]

Yet...
Never so good Balance..

http://images.gamespot.co.uk/images/pc/2001/stwmi/gal_stwmi_2_screen033.jpg

http://images.gamespot.co.uk/images/pc/2001/stwmi/gal_stwmi_2_screen019.jpg

[qwertyuiop]

My thoughts,
The mongol's have few generalized units that fit a varity of roles.

While the Japanise have specific units for each task.

Whatever fits your style I guess, but it looks a bit like it will be a little easier for a begginer to field a mongol army.

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It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
-T-

[Nelson]

Koga No Goshi, I hear you! Some of us have been immersed in Japanese martial history for a long time.

The Mongols were not my first choice for the expansion either. The Sengoku period invasion of Korea would have been a better fit. However, the masses don't know about it. Mongols, like ninjas, are people with whom guys are familiar, even if only from movies.

[Toranaga sama]

I agree Nelson. Koga, why don't you quit whining you damn crybaby?

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

Why did CA consult an history expert? There are more than enough fantasy and 'fun' games around. We were promissed something real.

The original shogun needs more depth and accuracy. I understand that the majority of the customers must be pleased with arcade stuff in order to make money. Without money there wouldn't be a game at all. I would like the option to customise the game to ones own preferences (CivilisationII, botsettings in Unreal Tournament).

This game needs toggles and powerful editing tools.

{A mixed unit of missiles and pikes or a unit of battlegeishas?}

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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.com

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by Toranaga sama:
I agree Nelson. Koga, why don't you quit whining you damn crybaby?[/QUOTE]

Hehehehe Toranaga-sama. Shitsurei shimasu! Gomen nasai! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

You're still in Japan. Bastid!!!

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Koga no Goshi

"Insolent Horses!!!!"

[Koga No Goshi]

Nelson,

In a few other posts I've seen people talking about how it is just "so obvious" that if the Mongol fleet had landed Japan would have been conquered.

The way I look at it, if ya ain't smart enough to move 600 ships across one of the smallest sea channels in the world without having them all completely destroyed, you can't be that smart.



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Koga no Goshi

"Insolent Horses!!!!"

[Ryuzoji Shingen]

Koga... it's called a hurricane in a place where hurricanes don't happen...

[Koga No Goshi]

It wasn't a hurricane, it was a typhoon. Both Mongol fleets came in summer, which is Japanese typhoon season.



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Koga no Goshi

"Insolent Horses!!!!"

[Shuko]

I fully agree with Nelson's earlier comments,just have fun and accept the game as it is. I doubt any game will ever be historically accurate, the aim is to sell it to the most gamers possible.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

As stated before, we mongols have enough units. Why buy an militia where we can field a mongol horsearcher?

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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongolsmiley.gif Quote Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will kill him at last[/QUOTE]

[Ryuzoji Shingen]

In actuality.... Japanese did have crossbows on several occasions. They were taken from the Chinese. In fact.... most Japanese weapons were Chinese made... including the musket. Yes that's right. The first gun in Japan was a flintlock given to the Daimyo of the Hoho clan in 1510.

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For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly

Tsukahara Bokuden

[Roman Totale XVII]

The question of crossbows in Japan has been discussed before on both forums. Perhaps this belongs in the 'History' forum but at the risk of boring everybody...

The only weapon which *may* have been a Japanese crossbow and which saw any notable use was the 'O-yumi' ('Great Bow'). These were used by the imperial regiments during the Nara period. Two were issued per 50-man unit and the Japanese historian Sasama described and illustrated them as artillery pieces rather than hand-held weapons.

With the rise of the semi-private samurai clans the imperial army system declined and so, apparently, did the O-yumi. Apparently the skills necessary to construct and use the weapon were lost. One of last references to O-yumi was in a chronicle relating the 'Former Nine Years War' (1051-62). If they had been used during the 12th-14th Centuries they would have surely appeared in the well-known war chronicles and picture scrolls of that period, but they do not.