So it's official, southern France is rotten.

[Meneldil]

With my new job (journalism), I've been moving quite a lot throughout southern France in the last 6 months. Meeting a lot of people, and - what interests me here - a lot of young women.

They brought something to my attention that I, as a male, couldn't really notice. At the time being, if you're a female and walking around town, there's a 100% chance you'll be hit on by half a dozen douche/scumbags, called a "slut" a "whore" or even a "jew" if you ignore them or if you don't answer favorably to their "demand". If you go to a bar at night, there's a 100% chance some guy will grope your ass or your breasts, and then also call you a "whore" when you tell him to :daisy:.

This hit me in the face yesterday. I went to have some drink with one of my new coworkers, and she kept telling me how bad it was. How she recently decided to stop going out at night alone, how she stoped wearing skirt or any dress that let some skin outside (she's not the only woman who told me that in this city). We talked about that (and other things) for a few hours, and then when I left her, guess what? Some scumbag - who's been sitting not far from us all that time- tried to get her cellphone number and called her a slut when she refused. And on the five minutes walk it takes her to go back home, she got harassed two other times. And it was 8PM.

Call me a racist-fascist-nazi-jerk, but needless to say, this is mostly done by... yeah you guessed it right, young arabian males (which explains why "whore" is sometimes replaced by "jew").

Despite not living far from it, I rarely went to Nîmes until not too long ago. I always thought all the people who kept saying how bad it is were making things up. But no, they weren't.

How did we let this happen? I have no idea. But this is :daisy: disgusting. How come young women have to deal with that daily? Who decided they're pieces of meat to be played with and disposed off when you're done?
I'm not a die hard feminist, :daisy:, this is simply not acceptable.

I've spent eight months in a :daisy: in Canada, and was told a billion times how men there were annoying. But my girlfriend could dress however she wanted and go wherever she wanted without being harassed by some drunken (or not) sexually frustrated :daisy:. Every time she came to France I had to tell her "I'm not sure wearing this would be a good idea actually".

What :daisy: is going on here?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well this is what happens when you have the unnatural mixing of cultures. People should stay in their own nations with their own people.

Like with the burqas, I say don't ban them, but then we shouldn't have the sort of people that wear them here in the first place.

Expect the far-right to continue its rampage. I'm surprised we didn't have a thread here about the recent success of the True Finns.

[Noncommunist]

Well this is what happens when you have the unnatural mixing of cultures. People should stay in their own nations with their own people.

Like with the burqas, I say don't ban them, but then we shouldn't have the sort of people that wear them here in the first place.

Expect the far-right to continue its rampage. I'm surprised we didn't have a thread here about the recent success of the True Finns.

What makes one mixing of cultures more unnatural than any other? Surely, there's been quite a mix in Britain as Bell Beakers replaced Windmill who were later replaced by Celts and then occupied by Romans to then be replaced by Anglo-Saxons who then got dominated by Normans.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What makes one mixing of cultures more unnatural than any other? Surely, there's been quite a mix in Britain as Bell Beakers replaced Windmill who were later replaced by Celts and then occupied by Romans to then be replaced by Anglo-Saxons who then got dominated by Normans.

Yeah, you always get this gem of an argument on a site full of TW players. OK, you played Viking Invasion...

Look, when we talk about abstract ideas like the 'nation' I think it is obvious we are talking about concepts created some time after the national revolutions so really 18th century +, although maybe a bit earlier in some cases.

All the smug liberal types are happy to take it for granted that the nation should be the natural level for the political life of a state, and I think it is only natural this should also extend to the cultural and economic spheres, at which point they get all morally outraged.

Well, whatever... France is reaping what it sowed, and Meneldil looks like he's having fun as a result.

[PanzerJaeger]

Call me a racist-fascist-nazi-jerk, but needless to say, this is mostly done by... yeah you guessed it right, young arabian males

Of course it is.

[Noncommunist]

Yeah, you always get this gem of an argument on a site full of TW players. OK, you played Viking Invasion...

Look, when we talk about abstract ideas like the 'nation' I think it is obvious we are talking about concepts created some time after the national revolutions so really 18th century +, although maybe a bit earlier in some cases.

All the smug liberal types are happy to take it for granted that the nation should be the natural level for the political life of a state, and I think it is only natural this should also extend to the cultural and economic spheres, at which point they get all morally outraged.

Well, whatever... France is reaping what it sowed, and Meneldil looks like he's having fun as a result.

Actually, I've just played part of a game of the first Medieval Total war as the Byzantines, never got to Viking Invasion but I know what happened.

So therefore, it would have been better if we could have just turned back the clock so nationalism would have never emerged? And then we would be able to mix freely?

[Boohugh]

What makes one mixing of cultures more unnatural than any other? Surely, there's been quite a mix in Britain as Bell Beakers replaced Windmill who were later replaced by Celts and then occupied by Romans to then be replaced by Anglo-Saxons who then got dominated by Normans.

And each time that happened there was friction or conflict...just as there is now. Nothing has changed in the past few millennia with regards to cultural mixing, it just takes time to adjust.

[Incongruous]

Nations have been around longer than have nation-states, one can see the germination of both English and Frencg nations from the 14th century, Swizerland perhaps even earlier, certainly Arab nationalism (or a sense of being an Arab making oner different) was alive and kicking from the time of the great Islamic conquests. Some scholars like to claim that Nationalism was only invented during the French revolution, a position I feel is compromised by historical record.
The argument that England has been a melting pot is misleading, sure different ingredients have been put into the pot, but they all adhere to a North-west European cookbook, the only sector of society which had ever, prior to the second world war, had any cosmopolitan tendencies was the aristocracy. To claim that somhow immigrants from India are similar to the conquerors of England's past ("celts", Romans, Germanic pirates, Scandanavian pirates, Normans) is good political rhetoric but poor historic scholarship.

[Noncommunist]

Nations have been around longer than have nation-states, one can see the germination of both English and Frencg nations from the 14th century, Swizerland perhaps even earlier, certainly Arab nationalism (or a sense of being an Arab making oner different) was alive and kicking from the time of the great Islamic conquests. Some scholars like to claim that Nationalism was only invented during the French revolution, a position I feel is compromised by historical record.
The argument that England has been a melting pot is misleading, sure different ingredients have been put into the pot, but they all adhere to a North-west European cookbook, the only sector of society which had ever, prior to the second world war, had any cosmopolitan tendencies was the aristocracy. To claim that somhow immigrants from India are similar to the conquerors of England's past ("celts", Romans, Germanic pirates, Scandanavian pirates, Normans) is good political rhetoric but poor historic scholarship.

While they've all been from Northwest Europe, with far fewer communications back in the day, I'd imagine their differences would have been more pronounced. Plus, there are some cultural elements which did move the whole way from the Middle East to Britain during those times.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well this is what happens when you have the unnatural mixing of cultures. People should stay in their own nations with their own people.

Like with the burqas, I say don't ban them, but then we shouldn't have the sort of people that wear them here in the first place.

Expect the far-right to continue its rampage. I'm surprised we didn't have a thread here about the recent success of the True Finns.

Bah. It's got nothing to do with the mixing of cultures.

It's got everything to do with one bad culture, a reprehensible culture that's taken root in France.

It seems to me many in the government don't want to confront the problem culture because it is not politically correct to do so.

Though actually having immigration controls is a good thing. Makes me glad the US isn't next to the middle east.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ah...don't get me started. You've got more chance of being groped travelling on the Paris public transport than as a blonde American television reporter in Cairo wearing a short skirt saying 'feel me up'. It's sick. They are disciplining French women into subservient Afghan girls.
It is working too, of course. You resist the first thousand times. Then after having wiped the spit off your face for the 1001st time, you will not wear a skirt anymore. This is what acculturation is all about. Different cultures in close contact will adapt to one another.
The country where twenty years ago women sunbathed topless near riverbanks is now a country where many women cast their eyes down in submission when they meet strange men on the street.


As to the 'whore' bit. Yes. If you respond, you are a whore. For letting it happen. If you do not respond, you are an arrogant whore. Followed by 'are we not good enough for you', followed by spit in the face.
And, as they have it, a whore doesn't deserve respect and a whore can not be raped. In fact, whores need to be taught some manners for undermining the morale of men, so anything that happens is your own fault for being a filthy whore and making these men behave in this manner.


:furious3:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I rarely went to Nîmes until not too long ago. I always thought all the people who kept saying how bad it is were making things up. But no, they weren't.Nîmes is a dump. The South is Algeria. Paris is Kinshasa. The north is a hellhole. Only the west is still doable. Bordeaux is still bliss. All the way up to Normandy it is peaceful. Maybe we can all live in a little village on the edge of the Breton peninsula, and have our druid brew magic potion to resist being under foreign occupation like the rest of Gaul.
There's also abroad. Although foreign countries might make you feel like an alien amidst different languages and customs. Which is, in effect, just like living in much of France then.


What the :daisy: is going on here? It is not just the Arabs. I shall top your fascism and go one further with stereotyping. The first problem is Méditerranée France, which is simply more macho than the north and west. Secondly, this local culture has been completely swamped by Italians*, Pieds-Noirs, Portuguese. These are more macho still. On top of this there is the Maghrebine immigration. Which is concentrated in the cities, and in the younger generations. There is no longer a city in the south where Europeans are a majority of youngsters. Urban culture is no longer European.

But the urban culture is not 'Arabic' either. It is a micture of Euro machismo, Afro subcultures, and a whole brew of influences, drawing as much from the mosque as from American rap music and gangsta subculture. Poker and gangbangs, these are what life is about to them. The local white trash speaks the same kind of gangsta French as the Beurs, wears the same clothes.


*Judging by your temperament, there's a fair bit of Rital ancestry in you too. :tongue:

[Strike For The South]

Lolz,

Lolz indeed

I have to train in the morning but this thread will get a response proper at some point

[Fragony]

Gutmensch knows it's an enrichment. Rightwing party's have been warning for this for years, what decades. How very mean of us to doubt the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help us leftist militants and activist judges

[PanzerJaeger]

Ah...don't get me started. You've got more chance of being groped travelling on the Paris public transport than as a blonde American television reporter in Cairo wearing a short skirt saying 'feel me up'. It's sick. They are disciplining French women into subservient Afghan girls.
It is working too, of course. You resist the first thousand times. Then after having wiped the spit off your face for the 1001st time, you will not wear a skirt anymore. This is what acculturation is all about. Different cultures in close contact will adapt to one another.
The country where twenty years ago women sunbathed topless near riverbanks is now a country where many women cast their eyes down in submission when they meet strange men on the street.


As to the 'whore' bit. Yes. If you respond, you are a whore. For letting it happen. If you do not respond, you are an arrogant whore. Followed by 'are we not good enough for you', followed by spit in the face.
And, as they have it, a whore doesn't deserve respect and a whore can not be raped. In fact, whores need to be taught some manners for undermining the morale of men, so anything that happens is your own fault for being a filthy whore and making these men behave in this manner.


:furious3:

Excellent encapsulation. Terrible situation.

[Samurai Waki]

It is not as though these things weren't happening before. People have been moving around the globe and intermixing since we first marched out of Africa. The difference today is the speed in which it occurs, one decade you're living in a Maple Grove, and the next you're in Little Riyadh, or Mexico, or whatever. There isn't time to adjust to it, so you get a nationalist backlash.

[Fragony]

They spit on French values because they are raised with the notion that theirs are superior, simple as that.

@Louis move to our damp swamp boobies gallore, bring a few brunettes svp

[Banquo's Ghost]

This is an important subject to discuss but please be aware of the forum rules on racism before getting too carried away.

Please also be careful in the deployment of any flowery language or metaphor. Certainly more careful than the opening post.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Viking]

Bah. It's got nothing to do with the mixing of cultures.

It's got everything to do with one bad culture, a reprehensible culture that's taken root in France.

It seems to me many in the government don't want to confront the problem culture because it is not politically correct to do so.

Though actually having immigration controls is a good thing. Makes me glad the US isn't next to the middle east.

CR

I cannot think of one single culture that was allowed to prosper inside another one. Minority cultures living alongside majority cultures always mean trouble. The only way for a minority culture to become accepted, is to turn itself into a variant of the majority one - aka integrating.

Though, of course, it is more convienent to blame it on one culture in particular if it suits the general world view better. This is also an opportunity to forget unjust and disgraceful behaviour towards women stemming from one's own culture, so that the people from Foreignia can be absolutely evil, instead of just relatively.

[Hax]

It is not just the Arabs. I shall top your fascism and go one further with stereotyping. The first problem is Méditerranée France, which is simply more macho than the north and west. Secondly, this local culture has been completely swamped by Italians*, Pieds-Noirs, Portuguese. These are more macho still. On top of this there is the Maghrebine immigration. Which is concentrated in the cities, and in the younger generations. There is no longer a city in the south where Europeans are a majority of youngsters. Urban culture is no longer European.

But the urban culture is not 'Arabic' either. It is a micture of Euro machismo, Afro subcultures, and a whole brew of influences, drawing as much from the mosque as from American rap music and gangsta subculture. Poker and gangbangs, these are what life is about to them. The local white trash speaks the same kind of gangsta French as the Beurs, wears the same clothes.

Thank you.

The rest of this thread makes me sad.

[HoreTore]

I cannot think of one single culture that was allowed to prosper inside another one.

Really?

We stopped harrassing the Sami a few decades ago, their culture is now allowed to prosper.

As for the rest of this thread, get over yourselves. It's not that long ago slapping a woman on the buttocks was considered a compliment. We can thank 1968 for that no longer being the case, but 1968 was confined to just one part of the world. We need to spread feminism, something we are already doing.

[Furunculus]

What makes one mixing of cultures more unnatural than any other? Surely, there's been quite a mix in Britain as Bell Beakers replaced Windmill who were later replaced by Celts and then occupied by Romans to then be replaced by Anglo-Saxons who then got dominated by Normans.

any culture where you have a strong dimorphism on a socially explosive level.

like pretty young parisian girls sunbathing topless on the sienne being called whores and spat-at by immigrants of arab/muslim descent, would be an example.

there is a strong argument that having a particular cultural group exceed ten percent leads to a tipping point where density discourages assimilation into accepting native cultural values, and thus situations such as descrived above.

[Husar]

Thank you.

The rest of this thread makes me sad.

Indeed, it makes me sad, too, when women are treated this way. :no:

[Louis VI the Fat]

@Louis move to our damp swamp boobies gallore, bring a few brunettes svpIn another lifetime, I might consider moving from Bordeaux to Paris to Amsterdam in some sort of twisted masochist plot against myself, yes. :laugh4:


teh cold teh cold not even the size of Batavian boobs can warm a man in those forsaken Teutonic swamps

[gaelic cowboy]

Reading this makes me glad we decided to become poor again.

[Tellos Athenaios]

teh cold teh cold not even the size of Batavian boobs can warm a man in those forsaken Teutonic swamps

What are you on about? It's 25.5 °C indoors already.

[Louis VI the Fat]

women treated this way. :no:If I may add one sidenote to this...

Women's rights have never been more popular than since one could bash immigrants over it. One can nowadays witness the spectacle of two guys sitting in a garage, discussing the loss of women's rights because of immigration, in front of their nekkid girls calender and in between wolf whistling female customers.
Same with gays. And Jews. No matter how much some conservative simpleton may dislike gays, and Jews, and Israel, he will still find it in him to berate the Arabs for being homophobe antisemites.


Pffft...

[Strike For The South]

I had a giant self righteous post and my compluter ate the bloody thing, cliff notes

France has recently taken on allot of poor, brown, and muslim immigrants

French Culture is superior to this immigrant culture, although that's a broad brush

The way these people are welcomed and assimialted into French cultutre matter to. In America crime rates are much lower among all immigrant groups and they are *gasp* brown people to.

All 3 of these things matter, let's not be infants about the issue, but let's also acknowledge they matter both ways.

It's not like before teh brownies came France was a paradise were all women were treated with the utmost chivalry and respect. Because that isn't true either

Also, in America if someone groped a women and called her a whore that person would be dropped by someone in the bar. I don't mean to go testosterone frontroom on everyone but that would happen. Add into the mix it's some spindly little derka derka and their are a few amount of people who would probably take a certain fun in it. Is French culture usually this passive? I'm just getting an image of a bunch of pasty artsy types crying into the cafe & crossicants....come on guys.



I cannot think of one single culture that was allowed to prosper inside another one. Minority cultures living alongside majority cultures always mean trouble. The only way for a minority culture to become accepted, is to turn itself into a variant of the majority one - aka integrating.

THEIR ARE JEWS IN THEM HILLS

[ajaxfetish]

I cannot think of one single culture that was allowed to prosper inside another one. Minority cultures living alongside majority cultures always mean trouble. The only way for a minority culture to become accepted, is to turn itself into a variant of the majority one - aka integrating.


The Pennsylvania Dutch?

Ajax

[Rhyfelwyr]

THEIR ARE JEWS IN THEM HILLS

It's always the same side that uses goes CAPSLOCK first and its never the ones they say it is.

Other people can do that to...

A: I don't like the way these immigrants act
B: ZOMG RACIST!!!

Yay! :balloon:

[lars573]

The Pennsylvania Dutch?

Ajax
You mean the Vampire overlords of 'Merica?

[ReluctantSamurai]

You mean the Vampire overlords of 'Merica?

Huh?? If you are referring to the Penn-Dutch, you are sadly mistaken, my friend..............

[Jaguara]

Also, in America if someone groped a women and called her a whore that person would be dropped by someone in the bar. I don't mean to go testosterone frontroom on everyone but that would happen.

As I was dealing with my rage thinking about the situation, I had the thought that if I was witness to sort of thing, that this is how I might react. At the very least, I would confront the jackass(es).

I got to wondering how, if it is that bad, that there are not yet squads of French guys prowling around for the pricks. But Louis' post answers some of this, namely that it is more complex and perhaps that this is the prevaling attitude in the area.

[Noncommunist]

Huh?? If you are referring to the Penn-Dutch, you are sadly mistaken, my friend..............

Unless beneath their veneer of friendliness and simpleness, their vampiric nature lurks ready to prowl upon the foolish city slickers.

[Centurion1]

melendil is describing a ghetto though calling someone a whore and groping them will as strike said likely get you hurt or at least removed from the bar by the bouncer

[Fragony]

THEIR ARE JEWS IN THEM HILLS

Don't worry they will be leaving in droves once the hills get enriched, no idea why

[Viking]

Really?

We stopped harrassing the Sami a few decades ago, their culture is now allowed to prosper.

Their culture isn't exactly prospering. That said, you think of the wrong sort of culture - music, language, food and similar. I doubt the moral ideas of the average Sami is too different from the average non-Sami Norwegian, for instance. There is a high degree of assimilation.



The Pennsylvania Dutch?

Ajax

If there are many elements of segregation, then that is not inside another culture, but beside it. The glorious Wikipedia seems somewhat unwilling to answer my questions on this point.


THEIR ARE JEWS IN THEM HILLS

Pardon?

[Ironside]

It's always the same side that uses goes CAPSLOCK first and its never the ones they say it is.

Other people can do that to...

A: I don't like the way these immigrants act
B: ZOMG RACIST!!!

Yay! :balloon:

Now Melendil probably knows more than I do, but I've got the feeling that those are people that was born or grew up in France. Hence immigrants are the wrong word.

Anyway the behavior seems to be "madonna or whore" behavior where the madonna is replaced with whore. I'm curious on why the behavior occurs. The feeling of ineptness leading to oppression of the physically weaker gender?

Any idea on how to stop the behavior? It will not only poison this generation, these people will have children on their own...

Simply chanting it's the immigrants fault and closing the border won't work and will rather invite to a rather messy and not really working "solution" (Jews and Romani issues has been "solved" this way for centuries) if nothing more is done.

[Fragony]

Any idea on how to stop the behavior? It will not only poison this generation, these people will have children on their own...


I most certainly don't you can't just change a mindset. But closing the borders for non-western immigrants will absolutely make the problems easier to handle. It's already too late for Southern-France it should be considered lost, there isn't anything that can be done about it anymore it will become a shariah enclave if it isn't already. Sucks to live there.

[Skullheadhq]

Since when does being an attractive young female mean you're a jew? And does this mean antisemites are homosexuals thus they're implying they're gay? But yet they hate homsexuals so they are self-hating? And since they wish the death penalty for homosexuals, does this mean they're suicidal? Arab logic is hard to understand for us outsiders.

[HoreTore]

I most certainly don't you can't just change a mindset.

What? Of course you can. 1968 changed peoples mindset in western europe. We no longer consider it normal for a woman to stay at home, raise kids and care for their husband. Hitting your spouse is now considered horrible, as opposed to part of everyday life. Same for hitting children. I could go on all day....

[Fragony]

What? Of course you can. 1968 changed peoples mindset in western europe. We no longer consider it normal for a woman to stay at home, raise kids and care for their husband. Hitting your spouse is now considered horrible, as opposed to part of everyday life. Same for hitting children. I could go on all day....

Oh it's absolutely possible that a mindset is changed, take this Dutch election pamflet from the sixties (cause it's a election poster I guess it is ok)

EDIT: Removed poster depicting naked female. BG

Now they have respect

[Banquo's Ghost]

So far, I have seen nothing yet in this thread that convinces me this is an exclusively Arab or Southern French problem. These behaviours are exhibited by young males trapped in the underclass of many cultures. Women would find themselves so abused if they walked through the traveller ghettoes of Limerick, the slums of St Petersburg or the drink-stained and neon-lit Saturday night high streets of Bristol.

Whereas there is undoubtedly an element of skewed cultural (religious) behaviour in the OP's example, it cannot be purely so. One would never find such behaviour shown towards women on the streets of Lebanon, Syria or Egypt* - excepting perhaps the direst of deprived areas, and probably not even then**. So it cannot be "Arab" culture. One would be unlikely to find such behaviour among the middle class suburbs of London or Dublin, whatever the country of origin of the people one meets, so it cannot be "immigrant" culture.

Apart from exclusion and poverty, I would advance one further observation that speaks to me about the undoubted problem we are discussing. Enforcement of standards.

It seems to me that these kind of behaviours are tolerated, rather than immediately stopped by law enforcement. This is multiplied greatly in regard to muslim immigrants because of the multi-culturalist viewpoint that they should somehow be allowed different standards to the rest of the country in which they reside. But this laxity stretches to all incidents of bad behaviour, it seems to me. Were they slapped in jail for a period - or, as Strike suggests, gentlemen allowed to defend a lady's honour without fear that they would be the one to be immediately prosecuted, one suspects the whole lot - brown, pink or variegated - would learn to toe the line sharpish. This is in fact what happens in their countries of origin, where expectations are very strict - they do not misbehave, because they would not be allowed to by elders or police. Of course, it wouldn't hurt for them to have a hard day's work to occupy their time too.

Purely anecdotally (which is what this thread is all about) I am reminded of the impeccable behaviour of my French friends' children at home and school. They respond well to a culture of firmness and discipline. They are polite, respectful and articulate. Then I see the hordes of French children on visits to the UK and Ireland and the repellant behaviour of these gangs of foul-mouthed, thieving little brats. Away from home, indulged by the feeble liberal tutors now charged with their care, they mutate into feral swamp-things direct from Golding's worst nightmares.

* My reference examples are countries where I have observational experience, or rather, my wife does.
** It ought to be noted that one can find bad behaviour in some tourist areas of these countries, largely (it seems to me) generated by the appalling behaviours of young women that encourage such disdain. "Whores" would be apt description rather than pejorative.

[Fragony]

It seems to me that these kind of behaviours are tolerated, rather than immediately stopped by law enforcement. This is multiplied greatly in regard to muslim immigrants because of the multi-culturalist viewpoint that they should somehow be allowed different standards to the rest of the country in which they reside.

I am really starting to like you. Not that I didn't already of course. Yeah, problemo #1 is the muticultural left. Kinda meant that previous post

[Skullheadhq]

Oh it's absolutely possible that a mindset is changed, take this Dutch election pamflet from the sixties (cause it's a election poster I guess it is ok)

EDIT: Removed poster depicting naked female. BG

Now they have respect

Didn't see it, since the mod removed it, but I guess it is the PSP 'Ontwapenend' poster.

[Fragony]

Didn't see it, since the mod removed it, but I guess it is the PSP 'Ontwapenend' poster.

Correct, the contrast between the left now and what they once stood for, women's right and free choice, and what they will absolutely give up in favour of multiculturalism because of the suffocating social control within in the leftist church, it has the epic proportions of a greek tragedy. It's in the right hands (here at least at the moment thank whatever) don't we all like naked women

google for ya guys 'PSP ontwapenend'

[Strike For The South]

google for ya guys 'PSP ontwapenend'

I've got a naked man and a cow

Is this ground breaking philosiphe in Holland?

[Fragony]

I've got a naked man and a cow

Well done who are you going to do first. Not groundbreaking really but I don't know how rough you like it

[Skullheadhq]

I've got a naked man and a cow



Then you've got the wrong one.

[Louis VI the Fat]

** It ought to be noted that one can find bad behaviour in some tourist areas of these countries, largely (it seems to me) generated by the appalling behaviours of young women that encourage such disdain. "Whores" would be apt description rather than pejorative.[/I]Whores?

Why are women whores when they seek some physical fun? For thrills, young men seek conflict, danger, drive dangerously. Young women for thrills engage in experimental sexual behaviour. 'Look what I dare'.
They are not whores. They are your daughters, your mothers, your sisters. And indeed they are those girls you sleep with - which makes you cool, but them a whore, despite you both engaging in the same act.


This much is true: there is no fundamental difference between the Taliban and the West. Women's rights in both are but a matter of degrees on the same scale. In the end they are always just a whore.

[Fragony]

Then you've got the wrong one.

Indeed although I'd call it getting it wrong. A real Texan has more than one cow after all. Dunno about the rest but Brokeback Mountain can't be that far of

[Skullheadhq]

Whores?

Why are women whores when they seek some physical fun? For thrills, young men seek conflict, danger, drive dangerously. Young women for thrills engage in experimental sexual behaviour. 'Look what I dare'.


You gave a perfect definition of a whore, congratulations.

Also: a key that opens many locks is a master key, a lock that's opened by many keys is a worthless lock.

[Meneldil]

Didn't have time to reply earlier. I don't have internet at my new place, so I'm doing it from work.

First of all, I apologize for the big words used in the OP. I was quite mad when I wrote it, and the only way I can express madness in english is by adding a lot of swear words :D (Talking about that, I don't have any italian blood that I know of Louis. In fact I have no idea where my family's coming from and couldn't care less).

Secondly, as many of you have said, these people aren't migrants, but french. And even though it's mostly done by arabs, white people do it too. As sad as it is, I got mad with a former university friend of mine, for this very same reason. He's doing research in political science, petty bourgeoisie background, well educated and what not. But he lately became a huge brainless macho-male when it comes to women. When he started to ask to random girls in the street "Would you mind having sex with me?" I thought he went nuts and gave him **** for it. He said "I'm an epicurian, I love to enjoy life". I answered "You're a douchebag who acts like a wannabe gangsta idiot". In his case, I think the US gangsta rap he listens to and the porn he watches are partly to be blamed.

But, his case is special, and to be honest, most of our former friends have turned their back on him. Because he's a shame. Among the people we used to hang out with, what he does is seen as either stupid or disgusting. And so far, thank god, he doesn't call women "whores" or "sluts" when they don't answer.

Sad as it is, this behaviour is considered normal among a part of the population that's mostly made of brown people from northern africa. And I'm not even saying this is inherent to some "arab" or "muslim" culture, because it's obviously not. Louis is right when he describes it as a conglomerate of "values" coming from Gangsta rap, porn, traditionnal mediterranean machism, so-called urban culture and - this has strongly been overlooked here - racism.
This is why these idiots would only dare to ask a girl "Wanna :daisy:?" only if she's "white" (ie. non-arab). Because arab girls have to stay pure. They can't have sex without the family's (ie. the older brother) approval, and they certainly can't have sex with white people. Because that's dirty.

That women have to deal with this kind of behaviours several times a day is already outrageous. The fact that this is also part of a unconscious racial cold-war based onto principles directly taken from the 19th century only makes it worse.

Lastly, yes. It's a shame that people let this happen without doing anything. I felt this shame several times, when walking around with my girlfriend, or even with female friends. I'd like to say that it's because the odds are usually against me (what could I do, alone against a group of drunken idiots?). But no, it's not. The white majority is just crawling in terror. If some white-skinned jerk pisses me off (which would be surprising in the first place), I'll answer, and even fight him if needed. But if it's a black, or worse, an arab, I'll just shut the :daisy: up and walk away while staring at my feet. Even if he's 16 year old and looks like a toddler. There's no explanation for it, but it's just how it goes.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You gave a perfect definition of a whore, congratulations.

Also: a key that opens many locks is a master key, a lock that's opened by many keys is a worthless lock.And another one for the 'See, it is not the Arabs. White men are the chauvinist male pigs'.

Has your 'master key' turned many women into whores lately, or is it out of spite that you can't get any women to have sex with you that you would describe them as whores?

[Husar]

Also: a key that opens many locks is a master key, a lock that's opened by many keys is a worthless lock.

While I would hold against Louis that men who seek that much fun aren't better or worse than women who do the same IMO, this is a completely worthless saying you pulled out there that borders on chauvinism.

[Fragony]

Lastly, yes. It's a shame that people let this happen without doing anything. I felt this shame several times, when walking around with my girlfriend, or even with female friends. I'd like to say that it's because the odds are usually against me (what could I do, alone against a group of drunken idiots?). But no, it's not. The white majority is just crawling in terror. If some white-skinned jerk pisses me off (which would be surprising in the first place), I'll answer, and even fight him if needed. But if it's a black, or worse, an arab, I'll just shut the :daisy: up and walk away while staring at my feet. Even if he's 16 year old and looks like a toddler. There's no explanation for it, but it's just how it goes.

You know how it goes when you do anything, you always are the bad guy in the eyes of the political correct. The guys you fought will return with their friends and family and nobody is going to help you as the red machine will maul everything that gets between their comfortable moral superior bliss they preach from their 100% white neighbourhoods. It's the evil stepmom that only cares about what the neighbours think, what isn't 100% ok must go, that includes you

[Banquo's Ghost]

Whores?

Why are women whores when they seek some physical fun? For thrills, young men seek conflict, danger, drive dangerously. Young women for thrills engage in experimental sexual behaviour. 'Look what I dare'.
They are not whores. They are your daughters, your mothers, your sisters. And indeed they are those girls you sleep with - which makes you cool, but them a whore, despite you both engaging in the same act.


This much is true: there is no fundamental difference between the Taliban and the West. Women's rights in both are but a matter of degrees on the same scale. In the end they are always just a whore.

No Louis.

I condemn the men too. This kind of moral debasement has its consequences for both sexes. I do not have to approve of it to respect women's rights. Men and women's rights are concomitant with responsibilties. They do not simply enable hedonism.

Feminism is not about having the right to debase oneself as a plaything for corruption and vice, though of course that right exists. Such moral choices lead to diminishment for all.

[Skullheadhq]

whore
   [hawr, hohr or, often, hoor] Show IPA noun, verb, whored, whor·ing.
–noun
1.
a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse, usually for money; prostitute; harlot; strumpet.

What did you say, Louis? I think the dictionary disagrees with you.

[Slyspy]

Generally in English the term whore is merely descriptive when talking about a woman selling herself or being sold for sex. Describing a woman as a whore merely because she is considered promiscuous is an insult.

[Ironside]

You gave a perfect definition of a whore, congratulations.

Also: a key that opens many locks is a master key, a lock that's opened by many keys is a worthless lock.

And if it's a male? Then he's called a Cassanova or womanizer... :juggle2:


I most certainly don't you can't just change a mindset. But closing the borders for non-western immigrants will absolutely make the problems easier to handle. It's already too late for Southern-France it should be considered lost, there isn't anything that can be done about it anymore it will become a shariah enclave if it isn't already. Sucks to live there.

Not really, only closing the borders are the goverment way of saying that we have a problem and then leave the solution to the population. And that will not be a solution, rather the opposite. That's how you get the BNP style parties in power. And they don't provide a solution outside deportation of citizens or worse. And that's not counting that the issue is not about immigration itself (even if it has a strong influence).

And that won't become sharia enclaves, but rather ghetto hell holes.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What did you say, Louis? I think the dictionary disagrees with you.This is like showing a picture of a Black man and arguing that the dictionary agrees he is a 'n-word'. Yes, it is a word used to describe Blacks, yes.

[Fragony]

Not really, only closing the borders are the goverment way of saying that we have a problem and then leave the solution to the population. And that will not be a solution, rather the opposite. That's how you get the BNP style parties in power. And they don't provide a solution outside deportation of citizens or worse. And that's not counting that the issue is not about immigration itself (even if it has a strong influence).

And that won't become sharia enclaves, but rather ghetto hell holes.

Excuse for excusing the BNP, but it's the very height of logic that a party without solutions emerges in a country without problems. They do have solutions you just don't like them.

[Skullheadhq]

This is like showing a picture of a Black man and arguing that the dictionary agrees he is a 'n-word'. Yes, it is a word used to describe Blacks, yes.

Glad you agree.

[Furunculus]

Same with gays. And Jews. No matter how much some conservative simpleton may dislike gays, and Jews, and Israel, he will still find it in him to berate the Arabs for being homophobe antisemites.
.
just checking that you are using "conservative" in the small "c" convention?

otherwise i would have to point out that it is very much a feature of the left to dislike jews and israel rather than the right.........

[Louis VI the Fat]

Glad you agree.I'll play.

Is Barack Obama a 'n-word'? Because, you know, n-word refers to Black people and Obama is Black and all that...



just checking that you are using "conservative" in the small "c" convention?My beef is not with rightwing voters. Fine with me etc etc ~:grouphug:

That point was about white homophobe misogynists who suddenly turn champions of gay/women's right's when they are complaining about teh Arabs.

[Scienter]

You gave a perfect definition of a whore, congratulations.

Also: a key that opens many locks is a master key, a lock that's opened by many keys is a worthless lock.

What now? This type of analogy is invalid dreck. :inquisitive: "Virginity" is not a gift and a woman's reproductive bits are not a lock.

Sure, some guys want to marry virgins for cultural or religious reasons. Or maybe because they don't want their wives to have a basis for comparison in the sack. But saying a woman who dares to *gasp* enjoy sex with more than one partner is 'worthless' and that a man who has had sex with many people is a 'master' is a sexist and hypocritical double standard. When two people engage in something consensually, no one is devalued. In what crazy world is it okay for a man to have sex many women and then label woman who has done the same thing as a whore?

This comment makes me a combination of angry and sad.

Re: France: I've been lucky enough to not have experienced this type of harassment in the few times I've been there. I've gotten more negative attention for going running outside in the US in different parts of the country. I don't attribute it to any specific culture or nationality. I think it happens anywhere where women are seen as less valuable than men, or as sexual objects. :shrug:



That point was about white homophobe misogynists who suddenly turn champions of gay/women's right's when they are complaining about teh Arabs.

I think these are the same people who try to hide their racism behind the guise of 'patriotism.' Because if you hate group X of people because you're patriotic, it's somehow ok!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Since when does being an attractive young female mean you're a jew? And does this mean antisemites are homosexuals thus they're implying they're gay? But yet they hate homsexuals so they are self-hating? And since they wish the death penalty for homosexuals, does this mean they're suicidal? Arab logic is hard to understand for us outsiders.

You seem to understand the misogyny of the creeps in southern France perfectly well;

Also: a key that opens many locks is a master key, a lock that's opened by many keys is a worthless lock.

It is correct that the one culture I spoke of earlier is not the only one that is deeply misogynist; gangster rap and college fraternity brothers in the US both come to mind.

It seems to me that it is the culture of certain North African/Arabic immigrants behind the increase in treating women like objects.

As Banquo pointed out, their behavior is more tolerated. Such behavior by others was not in the past.

So the those in charge must decided whether to bite the bullet and disregard the politically correct, multicultural thinking, or watch as treatment of women worsens.

CR

[Skullheadhq]

I'll play.

Is Barack Obama a 'n-word'? Because, you know, n-word refers to Black people and Obama is Black and all that...

Technically, he is. Some of my friends at school even use that word to refer to Obama. But that might be because I go to school in Wassenaar.

[Fragony]

But that might be because I go to school in Wassenaar.

$$$$$$! PECUNIAS MUCHOS

[Rhyfelwyr]

That point was about white homophobe misogynists who suddenly turn champions of gay/women's right's when they are complaining about teh Arabs.

Rubbish! I have only ever stuck to plain, honest, outright racism. :smug:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Technically, he is. Some of my friends at school even use that word to refer to Obama. You know what, forget it. Life's too short. Why do I bother explaining why women aren't whores and Blacks and 'n-words' to someone who doesn't wish to understand.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Rubbish! I have only ever stuck to plain, honest, outright racism. :smug:Thaty's the cool thing about being a WASP Hun. :beam:

Me I'm a terribly confused mixture between a social progressive and a creepy fascist. The fights I have with myself!

Ah well, never a dull moment being a schizophreniac. We always have somthing to argue about. :beam:

[Strike For The South]

Whores?

Why are women whores when they seek some physical fun? For thrills, young men seek conflict, danger, drive dangerously. Young women for thrills engage in experimental sexual behaviour. 'Look what I dare'.
They are not whores. They are your daughters, your mothers, your sisters. And indeed they are those girls you sleep with - which makes you cool, but them a whore, despite you both engaging in the same act.


This much is true: there is no fundamental difference between the Taliban and the West. Women's rights in both are but a matter of degrees on the same scale. In the end they are always just a whore.


+1 and at some point I'm going to commit this line to memory and use it. You're smarter than you look
Just becuase a women has a bit of sex does not make her a whore. If the women use sex as a weapon, Then we start to dive into whore terroritory. Of course how sex is veiwed is an entirely different can of worms. Needless it doesn't surprise that on a forum filled with 19 year old semi virigins we get a very misogynic and dated view on womens sex habits

If you people had half a brain you'd realize you're only hurting your chances, but that is a leap of logic that would force some of you to cross the chasm of ignorance that is your posts.

But of course we are now deviating from said topic.

[Furunculus]

who is "you people"?

[Banquo's Ghost]

+1 and at some point I'm going to commit this line to memory and use it. You're smarter than you look
Just becuase a women has a bit of sex does not make her a whore. If the women use sex as a weapon, Then we start to dive into whore terroritory. Of course how sex is veiwed is an entirely different can of worms. Needless it doesn't surprise that on a forum filled with 19 year old semi virigins we get a very misogynic and dated view on womens sex habits

If you people had half a brain you'd realize you're only hurting your chances, but that is a leap of logic that would force some of you to cross the chasm of ignorance that is your posts.

But of course we are now deviating from said topic.

Since Louis was responding to something I wrote, your entire tirade rather fails flaccidly at the feet of a 49 year old married man.

Had you bothered to read the exchange, you would have seen that my point was akin to the bolded sentence of your own post. I was not (as Louis was keen to pin to me) claiming that all women who enjoy sexual freedoms are whores, but that the behaviour of many young women these days is debased by a modern desire to be "popular" or to somehow "control" their environment through sexual availability. Modern morality seems to embrace the sexualisation of young girls and the message that being attractive and sexually available is the only way for women to progress. The media and corporate marketers constantly push that female promiscuity can guarantee "acceptance" and a degree of "power" and wrap it up as choice and freedom.

I find these attitudes to be fundamentally opposed to the feminism and concept of women's rights that I have always believed in, and in fact a rather terrifying subversion of the aspiration to those rights by the male-dominated corporate world. The fact it is bought-into so readily by otherwise liberal minded commentators as Louis is deeply concerning - to me, at least. Consciously or otherwise, those women that choose to pursue this path are indeed "whoring" themselves out - no more or less than the poverty-stricken prostitutes of the 19th or any other century.*

In context, I was noting that where one finds contemptuous attitudes towards women in Arab countries, it is invariably in tourist areas where drunken western women whore themselves around to equally reprehensible men. It is therefore unsurprising that one can find comments about this behaviour. Of course, one can find just as much condemnation from the tourist spots of Greece or Spain, which is precisely why I was arguing this is not an "Arab" problem.

Now Strike, you can disagree with me on my perhaps traditionalist views on sexual promiscuity (though you will find many feminist commentators of long-standing making the same points about the misplacement of the sexual revolution) but since experience seems to be the only benchmark you will allow, you will find that though my brain may be deemed semi-complete, I have nonetheless been laid a few times.

*And just so we don't go off even further down this tangent, I consider the facilitators - invariably men - of this trade to be far worse. How we might address this in the context of sexual rights is another topic thread, one thinks.

[Husar]

Excellent post, Banquo, just excellent.

[Fragony]

Kinda annoyed by those setting a standard on what makes a woman a whore. As if it is their fault they get harassed, as if there somehow is a justification?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Since Louis was responding to something I wrote, your entire tirade rather fails flaccidly at the feet of a 49 year old married man.

Had you bothered to read the exchange, you would have seen that my point was akin to the bolded sentence of your own post. I was not (as Louis was keen to pin to me) claiming that all women who enjoy sexual freedoms are whores, but that the behaviour of many young women these days is debased by a modern desire to be "popular" or to somehow "control" their environment through sexual availability. Modern morality seems to embrace the sexualisation of young girls and the message that being attractive and sexually available is the only way for women to progress. The media and corporate marketers constantly push that female promiscuity can guarantee "acceptance" and a degree of "power" and wrap it up as choice and freedom.

I find these attitudes to be fundamentally opposed to the feminism and concept of women's rights that I have always believed in, and in fact a rather terrifying subversion of the aspiration to those rights by the male-dominated corporate world. The fact it is bought-into so readily by otherwise liberal minded commentators as Louis is deeply concerning - to me, at least. Consciously or otherwise, those women that choose to pursue this path are indeed "whoring" themselves out - no more or less than the poverty-stricken prostitutes of the 19th or any other century.*

In context, I was noting that where one finds contemptuous attitudes towards women in Arab countries, it is invariably in tourist areas where drunken western women whore themselves around to equally reprehensible men. It is therefore unsurprising that one can find comments about this behaviour. Of course, one can find just as much condemnation from the tourist spots of Greece or Spain, which is precisely why I was arguing this is not an "Arab" problem.

Now Strike, you can disagree with me on my perhaps traditionalist views on sexual promiscuity (though you will find many feminist commentators of long-standing making the same points about the misplacement of the sexual revolution) but since experience seems to be the only benchmark you will allow, you will find that though my brain may be deemed semi-complete, I have nonetheless been laid a few times.

*And just so we don't go off even further down this tangent, I consider the facilitators - invariably men - of this trade to be far worse. How we might address this in the context of sexual rights is another topic thread, one thinks.

Very much agreed. Though I would go slightly further, by saying that "modern" female promiscuity is driven partly by a perception that men can have lots of sex and get away with it.

Not so, unless you go to prostitutes. Especially as men are still expected to be the "active" agents in most liasons, which can make "gettinglaid" time consuming and expensive. I personally never seem to have the time.

More seriously though, maybe the real problem is not our attitude to women's sexual activities, but to men's.

[Strike For The South]

Since Louis was responding to something I wrote, your entire tirade rather fails flaccidly at the feet of a 49 year old married man.

Had you bothered to read the exchange, you would have seen that my point was akin to the bolded sentence of your own post. I was not (as Louis was keen to pin to me) claiming that all women who enjoy sexual freedoms are whores, but that the behaviour of many young women these days is debased by a modern desire to be "popular" or to somehow "control" their environment through sexual availability. Modern morality seems to embrace the sexualisation of young girls and the message that being attractive and sexually available is the only way for women to progress. The media and corporate marketers constantly push that female promiscuity can guarantee "acceptance" and a degree of "power" and wrap it up as choice and freedom.

I agree completley and unequivocally, I read through the entire thread and decided to quote Louis becuase his post resonated with my thoughts as I finished the thread not becuase I was trying to pile on your thoughts. I'm fully aware you're an old man and I would've said as much had I wanted to grab your attention ~:)

I think we agree but are arguing two seperate sides of the coin, IMO the whole thing stems from the instant gratification society society we are living in, I think these girls (and boys) are being over and hypersexualized entirely to early because of terrible parenting and terrible media which often portrays an image of sex which is quite frankly, wrong.

Respect, love, and compassion are truths that are never broached. Instead sex is the womens weapon and money is the mans and at different times these things occilate for whom has control over the relationship.

But of course this is what happens when the feminist movement goes from Susan B Anthony to women whom are burning bras. This is also where the feminist movement falls vicitim instant gratification. Old style feminism like most other movements was built upon small but tangible victories but by the time the next round of feminists rolled around the tune had changed from the workplace and the ballot box to burining bras and not shaving.

The whole reason being these are "in your face" ways to get peoples attention and in their minds they are still breaking away from societal norms, which of course the first wave of femininsts were as well but the new waves tactics were, I submit to the esteemed peanut gallery, pointless. which brings me to my next point


I find these attitudes to be fundamentally opposed to the feminism and concept of women's rights that I have always believed in, and in fact a rather terrifying subversion of the aspiration to those rights by the male-dominated corporate world. The fact it is bought-into so readily by otherwise liberal minded commentators as Louis is deeply concerning - to me, at least. Consciously or otherwise, those women that choose to pursue this path are indeed "whoring" themselves out - no more or less than the poverty-stricken prostitutes of the 19th or any other century.*

In context, I was noting that where one finds contemptuous attitudes towards women in Arab countries, it is invariably in tourist areas where drunken western women whore themselves around to equally reprehensible men. It is therefore unsurprising that one can find comments about this behaviour. Of course, one can find just as much condemnation from the tourist spots of Greece or Spain, which is precisely why I was arguing this is not an "Arab" problem.


Exactly, the superficiality of this new wave plays right into the terrible "truth" of modern society. A woman is only what her body allows her to be (now the same can probably be said for men and money but that is another thread) And I'm not simply talking about beauty, I am also referring to her using her genitals as a weapon because modern society tells her that's the thing to do. Of course it’s not just and Arab problem what is happening in Southern France is endemic of Western society, it is just unfortunate that the most vulnerable group to this disease happens to be brown immigrants whose society placed little value on women in the first place

So now we have women who use their genitals to navigate the courtship landscap. Now don't get me wrong I love vapid and inane sexual encounters as much as the next guy but this hyper sexualzation of society combined with a false "empowered" woman caricuture is creating real problems. People have tradtional "going-steady" relationships less and either save themselves for marrige (stupid) or hook up until they are about 30 (stupid)

Now we all know by completely squelching your biological need to procreate you tend to wrap your mind a bit, this been espoused by the wonderful liberals on this site since the dawn of time and I don't feel I need to go into detail about why demanding everyone be abstinent is not only untenable but also unhealthy.

Of course the opposite side of things, the hyper sexualized society that is being crammed down our throats is equally as bad, to quote a dear friend of mine "it's just people having sex at a party" it's not so much the sex that I mind it's the mindset that allows this promiscuity to fester

I'll be the first one to admit at times on this board I have often made statements like the quoted one above but (and save this post because it won't happen often) I was wrong. I was demonizing the wrong thing, of course at the dawn of time it was a necessity to mate with as many people as possible as quickly as possible but civilizations are not made by aequsing to every biological imperative that come from the deepest recesses of out mammalian brains. They are made by employing logic and rational thought.

Perhaps a bigger impetus of me reassessing my beliefs was I just looked around me and saw broken people. People whom saw a glamorized version of something on tele or the tubes and when they put it into practice it wasn't nearly as glamoures. So we turn to pills, booze, or food and the result is a highly medicated, obese society that is quite simply rotting from their souls. I can't tell you how many 20 year olds are in the deepest doldrums of depression, silently screaming out. Suicides barley bat an eyelash anymore and the amount of suicides attempters on campus may as well follow the Dow and Nasdaq ticker, barley worth a mention

Hyper sexualzation, Instant gratification, and the presence of social media (which feeds the I'm the center of the universe mentality) create a treble of emotional destruction

So of course immigrants are going to have a rough go of things because the come into a society that is nothing like the pamphlet said it would be and they revert to their own brand of ugliness. Instead of drugs and food, it's tyranny and a nasty sort of patriarchy. Of course the way the chips are falling lately we seem to be doing our damnedest to catch up

So here we are, I sit with broken hyper sexualized friends on one side of me and broken unsexed friends on the other side of me, trying like hell to be a voice of reason. Of course how we got here is partly for the reasons you claim and, at least in America partly because of the reactions for the reasons you claim. I agree with you 100% that people are becoming more and more lost every second of every day.
So either you have people who put no stock into the emotional value of sex or put way too much emphasis on it. Either way everyone ends with a whole where morality once was
If you are still following this post I commend your ability to handle a ramble as suffice to say I have no answers. I understand what’s going on but have no way to stop it.


Cliff Notes: It is the curse of my age that I am growing up in a broken generation but contrary to belief I don’t think it is because we revel in being devoid of morality but we don’t know what it is, so we fill that whole with something destructive and let it break us from the inside out. I don’t like acknowledging the fact that we have serious flaws in Western society but it would be an even bigger crime to simply blame the brown man


Now Strike, you can disagree with me on my perhaps traditionalist views on sexual promiscuity (though you will find many feminist commentators of long-standing making the same points about the misplacement of the sexual revolution) but since experience seems to be the only benchmark you will allow, you will find that though my brain may be deemed semi-complete, I have nonetheless been laid a few times.


My op was never an attack on you or your manhood, aplogies if you took it that way. I also feel like we agree, even If I am upset with my conclusion. Next to my mother you probably the only person who has had the ability to stand my rediculosness for an extended period of time :love:

Edit: this is why I tend to stick to brevity, this is a novel of insanity lol

[Louis VI the Fat]

the heck? no way I am going to read all that what on earth has gotten into that silly texan but we are friends I suppose he expects me to read that Moby Dick of a post of his what's wrong with you people

[HoreTore]

I present both the drunk texan and the whiny Frenchman with a few precious gifts:

.................................................................................


You may thank me later. I don't expect anything, but I like expensive stuff that comes in bottles.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Since Louis was responding to something I wrote, your entire tirade rather fails flaccidly at the feet of a 49 year old married man.

Had you bothered to read the exchange, you would have seen that my point was akin to the bolded sentence of your own post. I was not (as Louis was keen to pin to me) claiming that all women who enjoy sexual freedoms are whores, but that the behaviour of many young women these days is debased by a modern desire to be "popular" or to somehow "control" their environment through sexual availability. Modern morality seems to embrace the sexualisation of young girls and the message that being attractive and sexually available is the only way for women to progress. The media and corporate marketers constantly push that female promiscuity can guarantee "acceptance" and a degree of "power" and wrap it up as choice and freedom.

I find these attitudes to be fundamentally opposed to the feminism and concept of women's rights that I have always believed in, and in fact a rather terrifying subversion of the aspiration to those rights by the male-dominated corporate world. The fact it is bought-into so readily by otherwise liberal minded commentators as Louis is deeply concerning - to me, at least. Consciously or otherwise, those women that choose to pursue this path are indeed "whoring" themselves out - no more or less than the poverty-stricken prostitutes of the 19th or any other century.*

In context, I was noting that where one finds contemptuous attitudes towards women in Arab countries, it is invariably in tourist areas where drunken western women whore themselves around to equally reprehensible men. It is therefore unsurprising that one can find comments about this behaviour. Of course, one can find just as much condemnation from the tourist spots of Greece or Spain, which is precisely why I was arguing this is not an "Arab" problem.

Now Strike, you can disagree with me on my perhaps traditionalist views on sexual promiscuity (though you will find many feminist commentators of long-standing making the same points about the misplacement of the sexual revolution) but since experience seems to be the only benchmark you will allow, you will find that though my brain may be deemed semi-complete, I have nonetheless been laid a few times.

*And just so we don't go off even further down this tangent, I consider the facilitators - invariably men - of this trade to be far worse. How we might address this in the context of sexual rights is another topic thread, one thinks.An excellent post. But it does adress two issues at the same time. To one of which we all seem to agree, and another which is a point of contention.


One, there is a certain pornofication of society. One can wonder if - in their heart of hearts - women are truely happy with this direction in which sexuality, and female sexuality in general, has moved. PVC and I recently had an, altogether too brief, little side debate about it, expressing that to our bemused satisfaction the urban social progressive and rural liberal-religious conservative seem to meet on this subject.
One can wonder indeed if modern sexual pressures aren't a terrifying subversion of the aspiration of women's rights. Far from failing to see it, the opinion of liberal minded commentators such as myself is permeated with it.


Two, women who engage in sexual experimentation are whores.
Despite the above, women are still mistresses of their own sexuality. And women do enjoy sex, they do enjoy exploration. Because of intense social scrutiny of female sexuality, women sometimes find it easier to engage in certain practrices away from the suffocation of their normal surroundings. Much more relaxed to leave it for the holiday, for springbreak. But they are not whores. They are not sluts. They are not unworthy of respect.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I present both the drunk texan and the whiny Frenchman with a few precious gifts:

.................................................................................


You may thank me later. I don't expect anything, but I like expensive stuff that comes in bottles.Dots?

¿Que?

[HoreTore]

Dots?

¿Que?

Oh, terribly sorry, I forgot the second part of your gift:

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Don't spend it all in one place now, ya hear? :smash:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh, terribly sorry, I forgot the second part of your gift:

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Don't spend it all in one place now, ya hear? :smash:The gift of keeping our mouths shut?

As if, eh? :tongue:




So here we are, I sit with broken hyper sexualized friends on one side of me and broken unsexed friends on the other side of me, trying like hell to be a voice of reason. Of course how we got here is partly for the reasons you claim and, at least in America partly because of the reactions for the reasons you claim. I agree with you 100% that people are becoming more and more lost every second of every day.
So either you have people who put no stock into the emotional value of sex or put way too much emphasis on it. Either way everyone ends with a whole where morality once was
If you are still following this post I commend your ability to handle a ramble as suffice to say I have no answers. I understand what’s going on but have no way to stop it.


Cliff Notes: It is the curse of my age that I am growing up in a broken generation but contrary to belief I don’t think it is because we revel in being devoid of morality but we don’t know what it is, so we fill that whole with something destructive and let it break us from the inside out. I don’t like acknowledging the fact that we have serious flaws in Western society but it would be an even bigger crime to simply blame the brown manSo I've read it all at last. :jumping:

A great post, passionate and personal. Let's get married!, or were you flirting with BG?

[Subotan]

No Louis.

I condemn the men too. This kind of moral debasement has its consequences for both sexes. I do not have to approve of it to respect women's rights. Men and women's rights are concomitant with responsibilties. They do not simply enable hedonism.

Feminism is not about having the right to debase oneself as a plaything for corruption and vice, though of course that right exists. Such moral choices lead to diminishment for all.
Modern feminism is certainly in part about women having the choice to do such things without being judged in a way which men who behave in a similar way aren't.


Generally in English the term whore is merely descriptive when talking about a woman selling herself or being sold for sex. Describing a woman as a whore merely because she is considered promiscuous is an insult.
Both uses are deeply insulting. Consider the thoughts of that most odious of hacks, Richard Littlejohn, on the serial killer who stalked Ipswich in 2006:

The men who used them were either too mean to fork out whatever a massage parlour charges, or simply weren't fussy. Some men are actually turned on by disgusting, drug-addled street whores. Where there's demand, there'll always be supply. This wasn't a case of women going on the game to put bread on the table, or to look after their "babies". That's what the welfare state is for. They did it for drugs.

...

These five women were on the streets because even the filthiest, most disreputable back-alley "sauna" above a kebab shop wouldn't give them house room.


...


These women were on the streets because they wanted to be.


...



It might not be fashionable, or even acceptable in some quarters, to say so, but in their chosen field of "work'=", death by strangulation is an occupational hazard. That doesn't make it justifiable homicide, but in the scheme of things the deaths of these five women is no great loss.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-423549/Littlejohn-Spare-Peoples-Prostitute-routine-.html
Littlejohn uses words like "whore" in order to dehumanize the victims of this scumbags. To him, the sex workers who were murdered by that scumbag aren't people, aren't individuals, they aren't even victims. They're something sub-human, and the use of words like "whore" is absolutely key to Littlejohn's definition of them as sub-human.

To be fair, Stewart Lee discusses this a lot more succinctly, and a lot more NSFW here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGAOCVwLrXo&t=4m50s


Had you bothered to read the exchange, you would have seen that my point was akin to the bolded sentence of your own post. I was not (as Louis was keen to pin to me) claiming that all women who enjoy sexual freedoms are whores, but that the behaviour of many young women these days is debased by a modern desire to be "popular" or to somehow "control" their environment through sexual availability. Modern morality seems to embrace the sexualisation of young girls and the message that being attractive and sexually available is the only way for women to progress. The media and corporate marketers constantly push that female promiscuity can guarantee "acceptance" and a degree of "power" and wrap it up as choice and freedom.

I find these attitudes to be fundamentally opposed to the feminism and concept of women's rights that I have always believed in, and in fact a rather terrifying subversion of the aspiration to those rights by the male-dominated corporate world.
I agree completely with the premises - not so sure about the conclusion. Girls are now expected to look sexually attractive at a much earlier age, and that's certainly the fault of companies trying to press junk onto naive children. Maybe a thread about the loss of childhood would be a more relevant area for that discussion, but there's definitely a problem with the idea that sexualisation is the only way to be popular, and by implication, happy.

I've more mixed feelings about the conclusion though. The "Girl Power" theme as always struck me as a load of hooey, if only because if women want parity with men, then trying to "get back" at them by being girly is a poor way of doing it. That said, modern feminism is absolutely about choice, and if women want to do it, then that's fair enough.


In context, I was noting that where one finds contemptuous attitudes towards women in Arab countries, it is invariably in tourist areas where drunken western women whore themselves around to equally reprehensible men. It is therefore unsurprising that one can find comments about this behaviour. Of course, one can find just as much condemnation from the tourist spots of Greece or Spain, which is precisely why I was arguing this is not an "Arab" problem.
I have a personal anecdote which completely contradicts the bolded part of your post, but it isn't one I want to discuss. Suffice to say that men in Arab societies are thoroughly backwards in their approach to women. This is neither the fault of them being Muslim, nor that they're Arabs, but because of their society's views of women as being "separate but equal", and also because of weird stereotypes in the Arab world that all Western women are Bilquis-esque nymphomaniacs. It is something which will hopefully change with increased democratisation in the Middle East, but who can say.


Gutmensch knows it's an enrichment. Rightwing party's have been warning for this for years, what decades. How very mean of us to doubt the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help us leftist militants and activist judges

Read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/14/multiculturalism-fears-fiction-europe-state


. Over the last decade multiculturalism, like political correctness, has come to mean whatever its opponents want it to, so long as they don't like it. Usually, the policies and dilemmas referred to are difficult to fathom or entirely invented. Ill-defined, the term is much-maligned – a lightning rod for the majoritarian impulses, cultural anxieties, economic insecurities and nationalist mythologies of the 21st century. Its contemporary critics keep telling multiculturalism's supporters to admit it has failed, without identifying what "it" is and who ever supported the lampooned version they present.

[Rhyfelwyr]

People have tradtional "going-steady" relationships less and either save themselves for marrige (stupid) or hook up until they are about 30 (stupid)

Why are either of those stupid?

[Tuuvi]

Why are either of those stupid?

Yea I wanted to ask this too, I'm curious.

[Jaguara]

Kinda annoyed by those setting a standard on what makes a woman a whore. As if it is their fault they get harassed, as if there somehow is a justification?

For once Fragony and I are in total agreement.

I find the entire conversation, in which some of you are discussing when it is justified to call a woman a whore...to be reprehensible. May I suggest that the answer is never? The term is derogotory and demeaning, even when used to refer to a prostitute.

[PanzerJaeger]

Why are either of those stupid?

They are the two extreme ends of a spectrum on which it is best to live somewhere in the middle. (Just my opinion.)

[Fragony]

I agree completley and unequivocally, I read through the entire thread and decided to quote Louis becuase his post resonated with my thoughts as I finished the thread not becuase I was trying to pile on your thoughts. I'm fully aware you're an old man and I would've said as much had I wanted to grab your attention ~:)

I think we agree but are arguing two seperate sides of the coin, IMO the whole thing stems from the instant gratification society society we are living in, I think these girls (and boys) are being over and hypersexualized entirely to early because of terrible parenting and terrible media which often portrays an image of sex which is quite frankly, wrong.

Respect, love, and compassion are truths that are never broached. Instead sex is the womens weapon and money is the mans and at different times these things occilate for whom has control over the relationship.

But of course this is what happens when the feminist movement goes from Susan B Anthony to women whom are burning bras. This is also where the feminist movement falls vicitim instant gratification. Old style feminism like most other movements was built upon small but tangible victories but by the time the next round of feminists rolled around the tune had changed from the workplace and the ballot box to burining bras and not shaving.

The whole reason being these are "in your face" ways to get peoples attention and in their minds they are still breaking away from societal norms, which of course the first wave of femininsts were as well but the new waves tactics were, I submit to the esteemed peanut gallery, pointless. which brings me to my next point



Exactly, the superficiality of this new wave plays right into the terrible "truth" of modern society. A woman is only what her body allows her to be (now the same can probably be said for men and money but that is another thread) And I'm not simply talking about beauty, I am also referring to her using her genitals as a weapon because modern society tells her that's the thing to do. Of course it’s not just and Arab problem what is happening in Southern France is endemic of Western society, it is just unfortunate that the most vulnerable group to this disease happens to be brown immigrants whose society placed little value on women in the first place

So now we have women who use their genitals to navigate the courtship landscap. Now don't get me wrong I love vapid and inane sexual encounters as much as the next guy but this hyper sexualzation of society combined with a false "empowered" woman caricuture is creating real problems. People have tradtional "going-steady" relationships less and either save themselves for marrige (stupid) or hook up until they are about 30 (stupid)

Now we all know by completely squelching your biological need to procreate you tend to wrap your mind a bit, this been espoused by the wonderful liberals on this site since the dawn of time and I don't feel I need to go into detail about why demanding everyone be abstinent is not only untenable but also unhealthy.

Of course the opposite side of things, the hyper sexualized society that is being crammed down our throats is equally as bad, to quote a dear friend of mine "it's just people having sex at a party" it's not so much the sex that I mind it's the mindset that allows this promiscuity to fester

I'll be the first one to admit at times on this board I have often made statements like the quoted one above but (and save this post because it won't happen often) I was wrong. I was demonizing the wrong thing, of course at the dawn of time it was a necessity to mate with as many people as possible as quickly as possible but civilizations are not made by aequsing to every biological imperative that come from the deepest recesses of out mammalian brains. They are made by employing logic and rational thought.

Perhaps a bigger impetus of me reassessing my beliefs was I just looked around me and saw broken people. People whom saw a glamorized version of something on tele or the tubes and when they put it into practice it wasn't nearly as glamoures. So we turn to pills, booze, or food and the result is a highly medicated, obese society that is quite simply rotting from their souls. I can't tell you how many 20 year olds are in the deepest doldrums of depression, silently screaming out. Suicides barley bat an eyelash anymore and the amount of suicides attempters on campus may as well follow the Dow and Nasdaq ticker, barley worth a mention

Hyper sexualzation, Instant gratification, and the presence of social media (which feeds the I'm the center of the universe mentality) create a treble of emotional destruction

So of course immigrants are going to have a rough go of things because the come into a society that is nothing like the pamphlet said it would be and they revert to their own brand of ugliness. Instead of drugs and food, it's tyranny and a nasty sort of patriarchy. Of course the way the chips are falling lately we seem to be doing our damnedest to catch up

So here we are, I sit with broken hyper sexualized friends on one side of me and broken unsexed friends on the other side of me, trying like hell to be a voice of reason. Of course how we got here is partly for the reasons you claim and, at least in America partly because of the reactions for the reasons you claim. I agree with you 100% that people are becoming more and more lost every second of every day.
So either you have people who put no stock into the emotional value of sex or put way too much emphasis on it. Either way everyone ends with a whole where morality once was
If you are still following this post I commend your ability to handle a ramble as suffice to say I have no answers. I understand what’s going on but have no way to stop it.


Cliff Notes: It is the curse of my age that I am growing up in a broken generation but contrary to belief I don’t think it is because we revel in being devoid of morality but we don’t know what it is, so we fill that whole with something destructive and let it break us from the inside out. I don’t like acknowledging the fact that we have serious flaws in Western society but it would be an even bigger crime to simply blame the brown man



My op was never an attack on you or your manhood, aplogies if you took it that way. I also feel like we agree, even If I am upset with my conclusion. Next to my mother you probably the only person who has had the ability to stand my rediculosness for an extended period of time :love:

Edit: this is why I tend to stick to brevity, this is a novel of insanity lol

//looks at feet

No, it wasn't me who stepped on the ostregen button

Over the last decade multiculturalism, like political correctness, has come to mean whatever its opponents want it to, so long as they don't like it. Usually, the policies and dilemmas referred to are difficult to fathom or entirely invented. Ill-defined, the term is much-maligned – a lightning rod for the majoritarian impulses, cultural anxieties, economic insecurities and nationalist mythologies of the 21st century. Its contemporary critics keep telling multiculturalism's supporters to admit it has failed, without identifying what "it" is and who ever supported the lampooned version they present.

lol@that it's funny finding it on the defence poor calimero

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

One, there is a certain pornofication of society. One can wonder if - in their heart of hearts - women are truely happy with this direction in which sexuality, and female sexuality in general, has moved. PVC and I recently had an, altogether too brief, little side debate about it, expressing that to our bemused satisfaction the urban social progressive and rural liberal-religious conservative seem to meet on this subject.
One can wonder indeed if modern sexual pressures aren't a terrifying subversion of the aspiration of women's rights. Far from failing to see it, the opinion of liberal minded commentators such as myself is permeated with it.

Here's the thing. A naked woman is not sexy, nor is a woman who is completely available. With the availability of pornography every fifteen year old boy now knows exactly what a naked woman looks like, so women's bodies have ceased to be a source of sexual power. I suspect that the increasingly frantic pitch of femenism and of some women's attitudes to sex are a result of trying to get that particular sexual power back, but the horse has completely bolted.

A part of the sexual revolution was about throwing women's sexuality in men's faces and forcing men to confront the innate hypocracy in mysoginsim, "you want this, well you have to want the rest of me too." Then it was about beating men at their own game, hence testosterone injections, vocal training and shoulder pads; that fell flat as it made women miserable. Now women are experimenting with being actual women, but competing with men on their own terms; some of them are doing well at it, some aren't.

I know a young woman who over the last nine months or so has increasingly been driving me insane, she's another university researcher, she teaches second year English; she's gorgeous and she rarely dresses to actually show much of anything. She's one of the sexiest women I have ever met, I find my self wishing I had x-ray vision to be able to see through that extra half-layer clothing strategically positioned to remind me what I can't seen.

Much sexier than actually seeing exposed cleavage.


Two, women who engage in sexual experimentation are whores.
Despite the above, women are still mistresses of their own sexuality. And women do enjoy sex, they do enjoy exploration. Because of intense social scrutiny of female sexuality, women sometimes find it easier to engage in certain practrices away from the suffocation of their normal surroundings. Much more relaxed to leave it for the holiday, for springbreak. But they are not whores. They are not sluts. They are not unworthy of respect.

There is a difference between sexual experimentation, and promiscuity. We should not be impressed by the latter in men or women, I agree with Banquo, throwing yourself around shows a lack of self-respect.

[Viking]

Now we all know by completely squelching your biological need to procreate you tend to wrap your mind a bit, this been espoused by the wonderful liberals on this site since the dawn of time and I don't feel I need to go into detail about why demanding everyone be abstinent is not only untenable but also unhealthy.
ty to stand my rediculosness for an extended period of time :love:

While I agre that total abstinence may to some extent be less healthy, I really doubt that it is unhealthy. I have never seen anything that could indicate that - as long as masturbation is not included, because then the equation of physical health changes (probability of cancer, or so).


For once Fragony and I are in total agreement.

I find the entire conversation, in which some of you are discussing when it is justified to call a woman a whore...to be reprehensible. May I suggest that the answer is never? The term is derogotory and demeaning, even when used to refer to a prostitute.

I don't really understand where you are coming from. When is someone 'entitled' be described by any derogative term at all? If you think that the term is not appropriate; that it has no use, that's fine - but that is separate issue.

[Fragony]

When is someone 'entitled' be described by any derogative term at all? If you think that the term is not appropriate; that it has no use, that's fine - but that is separate issue.

The implication is that women should behave like we say they should; let them do whatever they want to do what's it to me. Having a lot of partners, or using sex as a weapon (why is it any different from other types of manipulation?), I see nothing wrong with it. All seems a bit archaic to me to judge that. Isn't judging also a word with a meaning.

[Viking]

The implication is that women should behave like we say they should; let them do whatever they want to do what's it to me. Having a lot of partners, or using sex as a weapon (why is it any different from other types of manipulation?), I see nothing wrong with it. All seems a bit archaic to me to judge that. Isn't judging also a word with a meaning.

Such implications are not at all uncommon when it comes to derogatory remarks... When someone calls somebody else a murderer, they imply that this other person 'should behave like we say they should', which in this case is to not murder people.

This is typically the idea of morals - that they exist for the social relations rather than for the eremite in the desert. Some moral ideas are, when viewed in isolation at least, regulated by law (murder, theft) while others are not (adultery, lies).

So, anyway, where was I? Yes... morals are all about control, whether it is theft or promiscuity that is moral idea in question. So, in itself, control is not a valid argument.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Dominique Strauss-Kahn (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/dominique-strauss-kahn), head of the International Monetary Fund and the French left's great hope for president, has been arrested and charged with sexually assaulting and attempting to rape a maid in a New York (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/new-york) hotel.

Strauss-Kahn, 62, was taken from the first-class cabin of a Paris-bound Air France flight on the tarmac at JFK airport by plainclothes officers before Manhattan police formally arrested him on charges of criminal sexual act, attempted rape and unlawful imprisonment.
New York police spokesman Paul Browne detailed the allegedly brutal attack on a woman at the Sofitel New York on West 44th Street in the heart of the theatre district, where Strauss-Kahn was staying in a $3,000 (£1,850) a night suite.

The 32-year-old woman told police she entered Strauss-Kahn's room at about 1pm. Browne said: "She told detectives he came out of the bathroom naked, ran down a hallway to the foyer where she was, pulled her into a bedroom and began to sexually assault her, according to her account. She pulled away from him and he dragged her down a hallway into the bathroom where he engaged in a criminal sexual act, according to her account to detectives. He tried to lock her into the hotel room."

By the time police arrived, Strauss-Kahn had left the hotel, leaving behind his mobile phone and other personal items. "It looked like he got out of there in a hurry," Browne added.
Strauss-Kahn, who does not have diplomatic immunity as head of the IMF (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/imf), is expected to be brought before a state court on Sunday. His lawyer said he would plead not guilty.
The head of the IMF, the great hope of the French left for the presidential elections next year. Although, if guilty, that pales in comparison to a woman who can't even be safe in her workplace.


Bah. :embarassed: :shame: :wall:

[Fragony]

The head of the IMF, the great hope of the French left for the presidential elections next year. Although, if guilty, that pales in comparison to a woman who can't even be safe in her workplace.


Bah. :embarassed: :shame: :wall:

A little too confedient but damage has been done. One woman's story can change an election apparently, other side of the coin such a allegation will always taint you.

[Brenus]

“the great hope of the French left for the presidential elections next year”.
He was the doom of the left. No real lefty would have vote for him.
I wouldn’t: The IMF director, the killer by asphyxia of Greece, Portugal and Ireland. The pseudo socialist who drives the masses to despair with the politic he implements.
No way he would have a chance.

Now, perhaps, the so-call Socialist Party will awake and starts to defend the ideals it was built upon.

[Andres]

A "socialist" in a $3,000 a night suite... :rolleyes:

They have words for that: gauche caviar, champagne socialist, Salonsozialist...

Meh.

Also, it appears it's not his first time.

Linky. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/16/dominique-strauss-kahn-tristane-banon)

Clicky (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4972855.ece)

The great hope of the French left?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Sarkozy must be devastated.

[Strike For The South]

So the Le Pens are around until the 2nd rd again

Le sad

[Louis VI the Fat]

A "socialist" in a $3,000 a night suite... :rolleyes:

They have words for that: gauche caviar, champagne socialist, Salonsozialist...

Meh.

Also, it appears it's not his first time.

Linky. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/16/dominique-strauss-kahn-tristane-banon)

Clicky (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4972855.ece)

The great hope of the French left?Well, it has always been known DSK is a philanderer. But then, so is the entire French political class. There is hardly a Frenchman in any situation of power who does not try to bed his subordinates. :shrug:

But womanising is not the same as intimidation and coercion, allegations which are new.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I am soooooooooooo happy they caught that little...banker...before his plane left.

Show 'em the candy, then take it away.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

“the great hope of the French left for the presidential elections next year”.
He was the doom of the left. No real lefty would have vote for him.
I wouldn’t: The IMF director, the killer by asphyxia of Greece, Portugal and Ireland. The pseudo socialist who drives the masses to despair with the politic he implements.
No way he would have a chance.

Now, perhaps, the so-call Socialist Party will awake and starts to defend the ideals it was built upon.Yes, let's do that. Let's find the most rabid communist postal worker we can find and put him up for the left's candidate. That will ensure that Nicolas 'approval rating: lowest since measurements began' Sarkozy will face Marine 'Nazism with a friendly face' Le Pen.


So the Le Pens are around until the 2nd rd again

Le sad La true.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am soooooooooooo happy they caught that little...banker...before his plane left.

Show 'em the candy, then take it away.

CRThis being the mature forum: as a tip, always have a wank first. What may have seemed a good idea when you were all excited, nearly invariably turns out to be best left in private, with a consenting like-minded person.

In real life, few chamber maids are instantly turned on by the sight of a naked sixty year old man with an erection. In a state of less excitement, DSK would've realised this.

[Brenus]

“Let's find the most rabid communist postal worker we can find and put him up for the left's candidate”: He doesn’t run for it. Perhaps they can find a socialist in the Socialist Party. I am sure there is a least one remaining…

“That will ensure that Nicolas 'approval rating: lowest since measurements began' Sarkozy will face Marine 'Nazism with a friendly face' Le Pen.”
That was THE plan with DSK. Sarkozy knew that with DSK, a lot of real lefties, as I, wouldn’t vote for the so-call left Candidate. So Him and the blonde Millionaire stay on course, a very poignant call for a “republican” reflex, and dah dah, he would have been elected.

The entire cunning plan just falls flat.

I am not happy how. I think of the poor girl facing a powerful man, fighting against him. Did he had intention to rape her, or did she misinterpreted ambiguous behaviour (I write this to respect the right of innocence of each protagonists)?
The US justice will have to decide.
However, I suppose for the US judge to stop a airplane and arrest one of the most powerful man on earth has some kind of good ground for doing it.

I would have preferred DSK to be shown for what he is politically. He is a rightist economist who don’t care the most vulnerable, the weak and the exploited.
He proved it again and again at the head of the IMF.