View Full Version : Legionary attack
I don't intend bad mouthing the amazing work the EB Team has been doing during all this time. First of all good job for you all.
I can see the attack points of roman main heavy infantry is the same for Camillian, Polybian and Marian soldiers. When I get marian soldiers I was hoping to get the best heavy infantry that conquered the world but I saw them being slaughtered by Libo-Phoenician spearmen at the walls and i realized attack points of LP Spearmen are high to my soldiers. Marian soldiers are professionals, why do they have the same attack than pre-marian soldiers? Thanks.
Because they basically have the same weapons.
The Marain troops aren't supposed to be super soldiers, what they are is cheap, dependable heavy infantry with good morale and one of the biggest recruitment areas in the game.
Populus Romanus
04-23-2011, 05:32
Not true. Remember that they adopted the gladius after the Camillans! Their attack would be higher from that of the Camillan legions, because the gladius is a better weapon.
Vaginacles
04-23-2011, 06:43
But they are worse than the Polybian Principe in terms of cost/output. 700 more mnai for 2 less defense and 10 more soldiers doesn't seem to be fair to me.
That aside, the Roman reputation for military prowess came about due to the experience and training of the roman infantryman compared to other nations. When rome defeated Carthage, Macedon, Seleucia, and Iberians they were using polybian era troops. Get some experience points on them and they'll bulldose everyone.
Julianus
04-23-2011, 09:54
I believe this has been explained millions of times so I don't think it is necessary to do it all over again...
And I hope that in EBII this problem will be mostly solved. Yes, maybe most factions got elite units which are far better than common or even praetorian Roman legionary cohorts, but you can only have a handful of them. When it comes to the units that will be mass recruited, the Roman legions outclass everyone as a rule.
CashMunny
04-23-2011, 11:53
Yes, maybe most factions got elite units which are far better than common or even praetorian Roman legionary cohorts, but you can only have a handful of them. When it comes to the units that will be mass recruited, the Roman legions outclass everyone as a rule.
This is precisely one of the main strengths of the Roman military. Uniformity, reliability, and a clear chain of command allowing each individual unit to function independently if cut off from HQ were what made the Romans the superpower of Europe, not individual skill, as the Celts relied on, or powerful yet inflexible and cavalry dependent phalangites like the Macedonians relied upon. And when faced with skilled 'barbarian' commanders employing small unit tactics, the Romans often didn't fare so well. If the Germans or the Celts had developed more sophisticated small unit tactics before the Romans, the Romans could very well have been a mere footnote in history. And if the Macedonians hadn't neglected their hetaroi, they probably would have beaten the Romans rather soundly.
I think Marian men are more expensive than Polybian because the state provides weapons, training and armor. Polybian men are so cheap that is not economical use local soldiers of galia or iberia. With Marian reforms the local auxilia becomes more interesting.
But I can't understand because P, C and M men have the same attack. I was hoping something like more 2 or 3 attack points for M soldiers. I don't think i am going to do this, but is there anyway to change the attack and defense of a unit?
athanaric
04-23-2011, 13:16
But I can't understand because P, C and M men have the same attack. I was hoping something like more 2 or 3 attack points for M soldiers. I don't think i am going to do this, but is there anyway to change the attack and defense of a unit?
Attack isn't the only parameter. People here are forgetting that Polybian and Marian swordsmen have a better lethality than their Camillan predecessors. And the high attack of Camillan Principes comes from their main weapon being a spear, not a sword.
CashMunny
04-23-2011, 14:33
Yes, spears get penalties against sword wielding enemies, so their attack is set a bit higher, so they still slaughter horsemen, and have a chance against swordsmen, but are still at a disadvantage. Camillan and Marian principes/cohorts have +.03 to mass compared to Polybian principes, which doesn't do terribly much, but does help ever so slightly in melee. Also, the Marian cohorts come with more men than the Polybian principes and +1 to morale, at the cost of -2 armour. Yes, the Marians are more expensive due to state providing the equipment for their new prototype standing army. However, the increased manpower is what Marius set out to achieve, and this is reflected in their stats. By the time of Marius, the state could afford to spend money on the equipment, if they could only get bodies to fill the armour, and by the time that you get the Marian reforms, you should be able to fund them as well.
Ok, M and P men have more lethality than C because they use gladius. But my point is that comparing P and M soldiers (with each other) we don't see a great upgrade...aren't Marian soldiers professionals? I think they should have a little more lethality or some other upgrade, don't you? I would like to know historicaly too...in real life they were better than pre-marian men?
Lysimachos
04-23-2011, 16:27
Ok, M and P men have more lethality than C because they use gladius. But my point is that comparing P and M soldiers (with each other) we don't see a great upgrade...aren't Marian soldiers professionals? I think they should have a little more lethality or some other upgrade, don't you? I would like to know historicaly too...in real life they were better than pre-marian men?
Look at it this way: A polybian princeps may not be a professional soldier, but he is a veteran "out of the box", while a freshly recruited marian legionary is exactly that: a fresh recruit, who will only equal the princeps' experience after years of service (= gaining chevrons).
Not true. Remember that they adopted the gladius after the Camillans! Their attack would be higher from that of the Camillan legions, because the gladius is a better weapon.
The Camillian Hastati only have 0.1 lethality for their swords, while the later Polybians, Marians and Imperials get 0.13. So their swords are better to reflect the change.
athanaric
04-23-2011, 18:50
That's what I was saying. One really needs to look at the full stats to be able to judge a unit. Therefore, legionaries =
+ huge AoR
+ decent lethality
+ AP javelins
+ low price
+ large unit size
+ excellent morale (15)
+ good stamina
+ good mass
+ large shield
+ well armoured
= very cost-efficient unit.
fomalhaut
04-23-2011, 18:54
yeah the discrepency between their base attack seems a really weird criticism considering the higher lethality and the stupidly numerous and, in my opinion, far better benefits like size and AOR
Lysimachos, thanks for the explanation, it really makes sense. But what if I compare Polybian Princeps with Cohors Evocata?
1- There is no great difference betwenn Cohors Evocata and Princeps because Pmen are already veteran, so they are at max skills.
2- There is difference between Cohors Evocata and Princeps because Cohors are professionals.
What is the right?
=========================
Athanaric, what is AoR?
========================
Thanks
PS:Am I boring you all with so many questions?
AoR stands for: Area of Recruitment :)
I think it would be a little off-topic but why is so important have a good mass? Afaik mass indicate the "push" your unit does to the enemy, but what is the great deal of this?
oh it's acrually quite usefull as when the mass of your units is (significantly) lower than that of the enemies your guys are getting pushed trough streets/from walls/blocked at the gate/away from the flank/into an unfavorable formation most of it is siege related but it also is important in field battles.
oh I almost forgot: bridge battle - when your troops are too light they simply get pushed out of the vantage and make the way free for the enemy too por through your lines :
SwissBarbar
04-26-2011, 09:07
Look at it this way: A polybian princeps may not be a professional soldier, but he is a veteran "out of the box", while a freshly recruited marian legionary is exactly that: a fresh recruit, who will only equal the princeps' experience after years of service (= gaining chevrons).
This is a good explanation. I agree!
Mass is important to break phalanx formation and force phalangists to fight by swords instead of that long spears, am i right?
CashMunny
04-26-2011, 15:22
Mass is important to break phalanx formation and force phalangists to fight by swords instead of that long spears, am i right?
To some extent. A higher mass unit can push through the pikes and the first ranks of pikemen easier when doing a 'run through', while a unit with lower mass will have a harder time pushing through the formation.
i agree with xzgab i think when you do the legionaries you already know a lot about them so you want to be fair for others but in the spartatia hoplitai we know and still is overrated, historically they werent the best infantry remeber that the register about the greeks is mostly written by greeks that makes them overrated and no acuraccy also ive looking about battles and they spartans lost a lot of battles they propose ceasefires 7!!!!!! times to Athens and the plague of atenas was a hit of luck for them , then in the corintos league they lost 2 of the most famous battles of Mantinea (362 a. C.) and leuctra 371 a. C. especially in leuctra the others cities kick their spartan ass !! so the corintos people werent trained a lifetime to be a soldier and they beat them! then i think if the arverni and the auedui have solduros and great man v man and the roman legionaries conquer them , doesnt that mean that the legionares are better? and iam only sayin this about the evocata and the cohors beacues i think the polybian and others are fair enought ! (except the velites and the leves) but infantry is fair soo i think you maybe reconsider about the cohors just a 2 points more in the cohors and 3 in the evocata doesnt make that the game were more easiest for the romans jus its more realistic ......... dont be angry is just my opinion great work eb team !!!
I am comparing Cohors Reformata (the standard) with Evocata; and Evocata with C and P Princeps
I think the professional marian soldiers should have more attack or lethality because I don't see any good reason to train evocata. They shoud tire very fast (cause they dont have the good stamina) and has a litte more defence. I think this defense value will mean nothing because they are going to be tired when still running for a charge, and tired soldiers die very very fast.
I think the only way to get advantage with evocata shoud be at a defensive city battle in the guard mode.
How can I change the attack value?
How can I change the attack value?
If you ever wish to experiment with trial and error changes of statistical values of units, just visit the EDU file. So in your EB folder you will find an sp edu backup folder. This folder contains the single player edu (export_descr_unit) text file which contains values for all units in the campaign. Use search features to find the respective unit, and alter its values. If you can't intuit the right value in the lines of text, correlating it to attack, defense, and so on, there is a guide somewhere on this forum, I believe by Aradan, which explains the EDU value tables. The fellows here can direct you there.
Ok, my mistake. I was comparing roman soldiers using the cards of Recruitment Viewer and it is wrong. Reformata have +3 defence and +1 attack, I just realized the fact and trained my first Evocata, let's see how much time they can fight without tire.
How can I fix the RV cards? There are a lot of units with wrong values of attack, defense and upkeep.
moonburn
05-08-2011, 13:44
well the evocata as the name implies where former soldiers that where called back on duty so technically they had the experience but no longer had the phisical prowess of when they where teenagers
Yeah, they cannot have the "good stamina" because they are getting old. But do you know how can I fix the problem with the cards?
moonburn
05-09-2011, 00:39
i am a -5 at moding sorry :\ i´m still thinking of undergoing the agoge of programing and moding
How can I fix the RV cards? There are a lot of units with wrong values of attack, defense and upkeep.
Hi xzGAB (stellar username)! Those RV cards are way outdated bro. There's no fixin' 'em now!
Hi xzGAB (stellar username)! Those RV cards are way outdated bro. There's no fixin' 'em now!
Reminds us of Gabriella eh Vartan? :inquisitive: :laugh4:
RV? Aren't attack and defense values automatically updated? Or am I missing the important RV part?
Are we going on a road trip Vartan?
~Jirisys ()
CashMunny
05-09-2011, 05:15
Are we going on a road trip Vartan?
~Jirisys ()
Doubtful, but I'll let you take a one way ride in my Astrovan if you like.
Stellar, RV, road trip, Gabriela, Astrovan. What the hell is going on? Where are my legions?! GIVE IT BACK!
athanaric
05-09-2011, 16:12
i agree with xzgab i think when you do the legionaries you already know a lot about them so you want to be fair for others but in the spartatia hoplitai we know and still is overrated, historically they werent the best infantry remeber that the register about the greeks is mostly written by greeks that makes them overrated and no acuraccy also ive looking about battles and they spartans lost a lot of battles they propose ceasefires 7!!!!!! times to Athens and the plague of atenas was a hit of luck for them , then in the corintos league they lost 2 of the most famous battles of Mantinea (362 a. C.) and leuctra 371 a. C. especially in leuctra the others cities kick their spartan ass !! so the corintos people werent trained a lifetime to be a soldier and they beat them! then i think if the arverni and the auedui have solduros and great man v man and the roman legionaries conquer them , doesnt that mean that the legionares are better? and iam only sayin this about the evocata and the cohors beacues i think the polybian and others are fair enought ! (except the velites and the leves) but infantry is fair soo i think you maybe reconsider about the cohors just a 2 points more in the cohors and 3 in the evocata doesnt make that the game were more easiest for the romans jus its more realistic ......... dont be angry is just my opinion great work eb team !!!
The Spartiates always had the problem of numerical inferiority doe to their extremely hierarchical society. This means they could ill afford losing even a few of their citizen warriors, which in turn means that the easiest way to get a ceasefire or other favourable conditions from them would probably have been to capture a lot of Spartans and hold them hostage in a secure place.
It is not difficult to see that they were very different from the Romans, who favoured a concept of "mass heavy infantry of reasonable quality and tactical versatility" instead of the usual doctrine. Spartan Hoplites, OTOH, would have been more similar to the Gallic Solduroi and other elites than to Roman troops.
Spartan losses do not necessarily say anything about their martial abilities or those of their opponents, but rather tell us a lot about the circumstances around them. Such as: more practical concepts of society, superior strategies, innovative tactics, cleverly wrought alliances, numerical superiority, or simply more money. Remember, wars are not only won on the battlefield or by individual martial prowess. There are many other factors there. Armies of superior quality have been beaten or forced to withdraw by opponents who had other advantages on their sides.
RV? Aren't attack and defense values automatically updated? Or am I missing the important RV part?
We are talking about the unit cards of the Recruitment Viewer, not those in-game. The latter are indeed always up-to-date; but the former are .jpg's that date back to 2007.
We are talking about the unit cards of the Recruitment Viewer, not those in-game. The latter are indeed always up-to-date; but the former are .jpg's that date back to 2007.
I could never manage to see my Recruitment Viewer unit cards.
~Jirisys ()
I could never manage to see my Recruitment Viewer unit cards.
~Jirisys ()
First, I would like to get to know you.
I mean, first, you have to install the old 1.0 cards before reinstalling 1.1.
First, I would like to get to know you.
I mean, first, you have to install the old 1.0 cards before reinstalling 1.1.
:inquisitive:
Bugger. Can't someone make a lazy install? Where you get an EB member to your house with a flash drive and installs it for you?
~Jirisys ()
I could never manage to see my Recruitment Viewer unit cards.
Yes, the most up-to-date RV does not include the unit cards. They are present in the slightly older RV that you can download from the EB website, though. I simply installed both versions, and then copied the unit-card .jpg's of the old RV to the corresponding folder in the new RV.
moonburn
05-11-2011, 03:23
the three rv´s i downloaded seem to be very outdated i can´t get the best troops availability altough it might be because i´m having some trouble with the mic´s defenition
Even the latest RV is pretty out of date.
Even the latest RV is pretty out of date.
As in not all of the AORs are up to date?
As in not all of the AORs are up to date?
There was no big difference of AORs between 1.1 and 1.2. The merc generals have been changed but not much else I think, for AORs the RV is good enough but since the unit cards are much older they're no big help.
As in not all of the AORs are up to date?
From what I remember the AOR's were fine, it was mostly just things like factions missing units, old names and removed units still being present.
From what I remember the AOR's were fine, it was mostly just things like factions missing units, old names and removed units still being present.
Thanks. I am primarily concerned with the AORs as the AOR jpegs are what I use for the wiki.
Who is this Gabriella? Im just curious...
Who is this Gabriella? Im just curious...
OT, but If you really want to know, she's actually a fictitious person that I invented.
So is there anyway to get a updated compilation of all kind of soldiers in EB?
=====================
A fictitious girl?? OMG, you guys have a real need for girlfriends...
(kidding)
So is there anyway to get a updated compilation of all kind of soldiers in EB?
=====================
A fictitious girl?? OMG, you guys have a real need for girlfriends...
(kidding)
She is a character in an upcoming video game of ours.
and you mean like a unit list?
Yes, I'd like to have a updated unit list. I need to know where i find good local soldiers.
Yes, I'd like to have a updated unit list. I need to know where i find good local soldiers.
Use the recruitment viewer software. It's pretty wonderful.
if someone wants an EDU modified ask me
The recruitment viewer is best for finding where you can recruit soldiers, but this site (http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/) is what you need to see if they are any good. It has the most up-to-date and complete unit stats that I know of.
Use the recruitment viewer software. It's pretty wonderful.
The RV is my problem, it has outdated cards. I want a updated "thing" to see all soldiers.
The RV is my problem, it has outdated cards. I want a updated "thing" to see all soldiers.
Do you really need to see their pictures? lol. There are two places for stats that I know of. The EDU and the Heimstatt website that Randal mentioned. EDU is the only one guaranteed to be up to date.
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