...:::Slingers Vs Archers:::...

[N0V0NEU]

According to my experiences, slingers are the most effective missile units in the game, though they are extremely cheap (300-600 Mnarii and easily recruitable (you just need a simple drillground in a ridiculously small village). They are effective against armor, which means they can easily destroy and weaken legionaries, phalanxes and elite units.
Militia don't even stand a chance against them (once the enemy attacked one of my settlements with an army of 1200, mostly levies, I had about 2-3 squads of slingers and some militia units, the slingers have killed about 600-700, which was more than the half of the enemy's army)

However, from my experience, archers are only good against cheap and poorly equipped units, they are completely useless against heavy, elite and armored units. Still, they are lot more expensive than slingers (600-1600 Mnai(!)) and you need large settlements and costly barracks to produce them. (One of my best memories is when 5 units of Syrian Archers were shooting at 1 unit of Pezhetarioi (hellenic phalanx) and they were only able to kill 4 or 6 of them :embarassed:)

So, as I see:
Slingers:
- Extremely cheap
- Easily recruitable
- Effective against armor/heavy/elite units
- Highly mobile

Archers:
- Relatively cheap
- Highly mobile
- Useless against armor/heavy/elite units

What do you think? :rifle:
-

[fomalhaut]

there must be self restraint in the useage of the powerful slinger, however. they weren't super plentiful in ancient armies due to the amount of skill necessary to become an effective slinger

[A_Dane]

They really aint that useful against elites, unless they got quite a bit of chevrons.

I've also found, that archers do better against light-medium armored troups for some reason.

Also, archers are capable of fireing above your soldiers lines, slingers can't.
Using slingers requires you to have quite a cavalry force, so you can cover them while you flank the enemy. (atleast that's the case when I'm fighting the blasted seleucids -.-)
there are clear pros and cons to both, and some of the more costly archers are actually quite effective :)

[fomalhaut]

not necessarily, any decently armored enemy will laugh at your arrows. he is totally right about Syrian archers arrows bouncing off elite enemies, essentially

[gamegeek2]

It's fairly well known that slingers are overpowered as there were no projectile changes to compensate for slingers' ap ability.

[Vaginacles]

well you need archers to kill off the slingers

[fomalhaut]

that's what light cav is for :-)

[moonburn]

archers are better in walls

archers can be safe behinde a line and don´t continously kill off your infantry while failling to shoot at the enemy

archers shooting time is slower then slingers

an archer is easyer to train and if you use many they don´t even need that much training while every slinger needs to be extremly good to be efective thats why we got many kind of archers in the game syrians horse archers kretikoi bosphorians sataroas and so forth and so forth while slingers we have the basic model for everyone and then balearic because they used large stones and rhodians because alexander used them against horse archers

if the game will come with recruitment pools it will be very instersting since the amoung of recruitable slingers will probably be 1/4 of archers (except in hispania where there was no archers)

as for archers being inefective against heavily armoured their job was to take out skirmishers and harass light infantry and light cavalry to forçe them to act and thanks to proper archers it meant you could use your skirmishers against heavy infantry instead of other skirmishers

but if you wanna go around killing peztharoi with archers shoot them in the back

[The_Blacksmith]

It depends on the target, i can have one hellenic archer shooting all day at a Pandotapoi without killing more then 30 men, the archer kills about 60...

Summary:

Archers are better at soft targets

slingers are best at hard targets, unless they fire stones, then they are in between...

[DaciaJC]

Usually I have AP troops (Drapanai or others) to take care of elites or armored heavies. I need projectiles for "soft-skinned" targets, and for that, I've found archers to generally be more effective than slingers. Plus, they can hold their own better against light cavalry or infantry with their spears or swords.

[A_Dane]

not necessarily, any decently armored enemy will laugh at your arrows. he is totally right about Syrian archers arrows bouncing off elite enemies, essentially

Most elites will laugh at your inexperienced slingers as well.

Don't get me wrong, I love slingers, but they serve a very specific purpose on the battlefield, where archers just have more overall use :)

[QuintusSertorius]

Unless the people they're shooting at are unarmoured, (foot) archers are frankly useless. I have a unit of them for historical accuracy/feasibility, not because I think they're any good. For the same reason, I only ever have one unit of slingers, they're effective but too many of them is credibility-straining.

[fomalhaut]

2 units of Syrians or Bosporans will usually counter light skirmishers, panda's, and slingers. Plus all in all archers look cooler than slingers save for the Rhodians. archers also devestate light cav while slingers devestate heavy cav

[Atraphoenix]

Option 3:
Horse archers :laugh4:

Slingers are good chep bas...s who can dare to kill valuable elites.

Archers are nemesis of lightly armoured targets and a must in early game before AI begins Elite spams.

Horse archers are rulers of field battles if you know how to use them / no fire at will and cataphract support against elites and most important one never fire elites from front.

In summary, archers kills slingers, slingers kills elites, elites kills all,

rock scissors, paper .....

so use both...

[fomalhaut]

just reading what you were writing i know you were the 'pahlava guy'. you can take on full stacks of ANYTHING with just some Parni Nobles and an FM D:

[Ksifos]

They both have their uses but I prefer slingers because of the AP trait.Slingers are of maximum value, compared to their recruit cost and upkeep.

Archers main use is against light infantry /cavalry and maybe an ignorant general letting his peltasts advance in a tight formation.
Archer vs slingers (or other missile unit)= ineffective in terms of hit ratio/ volleys, because of loose formation.

Slingers are good against heavily armored units but not when shooting on their front.Best employed when shooting at the back of a unit, or at their right (since they carry a shield on their left hand and is ineffective).To get the maximum effect position them at your left flank, that way they get a better shot at the unprotected right of the enemy.

*The same goes for archers but they generally produce lower kill scores against armored infantry.

Horse archers is different story.While the AI has big difficulties handling them, an experienced human should have some archers and light cavalry available so that he puts them on the run and finally out of the battle.I don't believe spamming horse archers is a viable tactic against a strong army.Your damage unless done to their back will produce minimal kills, your arrows will deplete and then you are an easy prey.

Heavy horse archers are bigger problem since they pose a "charge threat", but not unresolved.The heavy armour makes them slower and also to tire easier.If left on skirmish automatically and not micromanaged you can tire them with moves of heavy spearmen units backed up with slingers preferably.If not just point some units to them so they dont get shots at your back.Finally when tired they die like everyone else.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Slingers are extremely powerful in EB, and I find I have to use house rules to limit their effect on the battlefield, otherwise battles become unhistorical and too easy.

Slinger House Rules:
1. No more than one unit of slingers per 7 units in the army. (e.g. for a celtic army, 3 spearmen, 2 swordsmen, 1 cavalry and 1 slinger.) Never more than three slingers in the same army.
2. Slingers to be deployed as a skirmish line in front of the main army, or on the flank. No friendly units between the slinger and the enemy unless the unit is in reserve.
3. Slingers are not allowed to shoot if there is a friendly unit between them and the enemy, as the risk of friendly fire is too great. Exceptions: Slinger on steep forward slope and can shoot horizontally over the heads of the friendly unit in front, or the slinger is on top of a wall.
4. Slingers to be deployed in the longest, thinnest line possible (loose formation, 2 ranks deep.) This to prevent slingers in rear ranks hitting their comrades in front ranks. Deeper formations only allowed when moving the unit from one location to another, or when unit is in reserve (both cases with fire at will switched off). Deep formation also allowed if the slingers are to charge into the enemy and fight hand to hand. The wide, thin formation is ideal for shooting at the enemy, but is very weak for hand to hand combat, so the slingers will be very vulnerable to a sudden enemy cavalry charge.
5. Slingers not allowed to be retrained, merge depleted units with new units instead. Also, use experienced, depleted slingers as garrison units wherever possible, and use new, inexperienced slinger units with the field army.

[Ca Putt]

as mentioned before horse archers are a whole other story.- when youV'e got the choice to recruit just one unit, it'll most likely be the HA well unless your planning towards a siege or your faceing TABs.

you know with pezhetairoi and even Argyraspidai you've get the feeling "wow now they at least scratch them" with Horse archers or normal archers once you get them behind them or in other words If you have superior numbers you can waste all your ammo on their backs and after a while they will be sufficiently weaker. even PedExes feature this to a very small extent but TABs, they just don't care from which direction you shoot at them with arrows they just don't die. I can still remember, winter, a river crossing...(i wonder why it wasn't frozen) a League Mercenary company is on its way to the main army to liberalte the syrian cities of Imperial Opression (bla bla bla) when a small detachment of Imperial troops emerged from the trees unaware of the odds the young Commander let his skythian raiders set over the second ford to the south to bring them into the back of the highwaymen, his plan succeded but what was that even tho tree regiments of Skythian Raiders had dispached all their arrows at the unshielded backs of these mosters not even five of them had fallen to the deadly rain. as he rode closer(Hellenic mercenary General) he saw the reson for his faillure, the men that blocked his path were nothing less than the Armored Royal Guard of the Seleukids, men overthrown with Metal like the Warriors of old with only small holes to look through at their trembling enemies.
ok enough of this eventually I killed them with some losses but lesson learned - when the guy has more resemblance with a can than a man it does not matter from which direction you thow sticks at him :/

Archers may be generally weaker due to Slingers beeing op because of the AP attack but they are still usefull:

in Sieges(and RTW stands for repetitive-Sieges Total War) they are of advantage for both attacker and defender due to their high arc fire and the availibility of fire arrows whereas slingers not only have to have a strait line to attack but also suffer greatly from sieges featureing few (heavy)cavalry and assaulting/defending elites have to be fired at from the front where they have their shield :/
in tight spots - where you cannot get the slingers around your battleline, archers can still fire from behind your troops and when needed use their fire arrows to mass rout the enemy.

oh and to let elephants run amok istead of dieing :D

[A_Dane]

The poll should have more options. I've inflicted heavy casualties with slingers, but fire arrows can really cause havoc as Ca Putt said. If you can just get them to rout, your light cavalry can kill them anyway. This is more easily done with archers than slingers :)

Ps: those Armored royal guards dosn't care if you got slingers in their rear, they won't feel it anyway -.-

[antisocialmunky]

Slingers if you don't want missile superiority and a unit that will get shot up or archers if you want missile superiority.

[Geticus]

Slingers with "fast moving" trait make good skirmishers because they juke quickly back and forth and exploit the AI tendency to charge, retreat, charge, retreat. But the most useful long range missile infantry IMO are archer-spearmen (medjinikos, persian archer spearmen etc) and high lethality archer swordsmen like Bosphorans and Dacian Elite archers. These guys can initiate the battle with missile showers and then tip the scales during protracted melee with their spear/sword impetus.

[ximxim]

When it comes to shooting stuff, I think slingers are generally better overall, but archer units often fill other roles as well, like the gallic, germanic and persian archer/spearmen, getic and bosphoran archer/longswordmen and the indians aka "drapanai in disguise".

[Tuuvi]

I prefer archers over slingers, any eastern archer will slaughter light infantry and cavalry with ease, so your melee troops can focus on the heavier troops and more easily flank them. I've always had a hard time getting slingers to inflict very many casualties on light or heavy infantry, but in my Saba campaign I've found that a couple of slinger units focusing their fire on hellenic bodyguard cavalry will kill most of the unit.

[Rahwana]

Slingers ate Catass for breakfast, nuff said

[Atraphoenix]

Slingers ate Catass for breakfast, nuff said

Do not forget they need 4-5 exp to have a scratch on them...

[fomalhaut]

Do not forget they need 4-5 exp to have a scratch on them...

hmm? eastern slingers devestate Parni Early and even Late bodyguards. those stones crush the bones of my faithful brothers through their heavy armor

[Atraphoenix]

hmm? eastern slingers devestate Parni Early and even Late bodyguards. those stones crush the bones of my faithful brothers through their heavy armor

Did I mentioned you before? I always kill slingers first then enemy general. I learned my lesson both on EB and unfortunate fate of Pacorus I of Parthia.

[ziegenpeter]

One point I like about archers is that sometimes their fire arrow ability can give you the edge on breaking an opponents army's morale and thus save valuable soldiers lifes.

[vollorix]

Comparing apples with grapes won´t lead us anywhere, me thinks.

@Atraphoenix: how did you manage to keep hidden in all 8 years? ;)

[TheLastDays]

I agree with the apples-grapes comment ;) - they both have their role and purpose... and yes I house-rule slingers too...
vollorix, I think "Year Eight Member" means, he joined in year eight not that it's his eighth year... I might be wrong though

[Atraphoenix]

vollorix, I think "Year Eight Member" means, he joined in year eight not that it's his eighth year... I might be wrong though

Believe in yourself young Padawan, force is with you....

[The Spartathenian of Corinth]

Archers, as you can do great ambushes and fire above heads.

[moriluk]

I was under the impression that archers are more effective against unarmed troops like Hellenic native spearment because with no armor the ap rating for slingers is rendered useless. Is this not true? At least, as I understand, ap = 1/2 armor rating.

I prefer archers for town guard as they can take out siege weapons with fire arrows.

[Ca Putt]

true In my experience Archers are considerabley more effective against unarmored units probably because they a) have higher attack b) can use fire arrows

[Grade_A_Beef]

In play I generally tend to use slingers like skirmishers. Like javelineers they are not that effective firing from behind the lines and should only be used in the beginning to harass and then to flank.

Still though I would generally stick with archers. I believe slingers are only truly effective against light unarmored units with small shields (akontistai) and cataphract level cavalry. For anything else they need to flank AND have experience to be effective. That calls for support units you can be using to protect your own flanks or to help out in the main battle instead. They also have absolutely no melee for the most part.

The worst part is that against an aggressive (advances to javelin range quickly) opponent slingers are near useless. They cause friendly fire from behind the lines, so you can't risk shooting at enemy unengaged units but at the same time you can't risk using them to flank unless you want a unit that will rout within 30 seconds of contact. They barely help if you use your light cavalry to engage theirs (who will probably be chasing your slingers.) If you do engage your light cavalry with theirs, now your slingers have another obstacle blocking them from a good firing position. Even if you put them at the flank where you can use light spearmen to support that's not really an optimum angle for slingers to fire from. I've always had trouble using up all the slinger ammo even after the main engagement is over and done with, mainly because I can't get a good target or flanking position without risk of friendly fire.

Archers on the other hand have a lot more to work with, as their higher attack arrows can mow down lightly armored units with ease and best of all can fire above your units. They can fire from behind the lines and still be able to shoot at targets of opportunity (or any target for that matter) without much fear of friendly fire.

[jirisys]

In play I generally tend to use slingers like skirmishers. Like javelineers they are not that effective firing from behind the lines and should only be used in the beginning to harass and then to flank.

Good sir, I might have been inclined to believe; by this your statement that; you indeed and in fact are somewhat distinctively mad.

Anything is effective firing from behind lines. Especially javelineers and slingers. Since archers don't work that well against well armoured troops.

~Jirisys ()

[fomalhaut]

false, tragically false. slingers do not shoot in an arc they shoot a straight line, therefore slingers in back lines hit your own soldiers. bowmen do not

[Ca Putt]

Jirisys, you misread his statement(in fact at first so did I but then I read it again and it made sence) he meant from behind YOUR lines ;) where indeed both suck.

tho I would like to add that it can prove vital to save up some ammo(with all ranged units) to use it after the lines are engaged and flankig can commence.

[vollorix]

If archers shooting in the backs of enemies would be a common thing in ancient battles, then, i think, they´d be a true "hammer" instead of cavalry. Horse Archers might have used this tactics, but the "Cantabrian circle" doesn´t work like it should within the game engine ( a unit doesn´t get surrounded and shot from all sides ). Ambushing archers are another thing. I do not know how slingers were used exactly, but by the time you have surrounded the enemy from all sides so that you can attack them from behind it´s highly unlikely ( in reality ) that any soldiers, except elites, would really fight to the end instead of routing.

[TheLastDays]

I never though the Cantabrian circle was to encircle the enemy...

[vollorix]

@TheLastDays: remember those "western" movies when the Indians have surrounded a trek, or a group of men, and riding around while shooting arrows ( or firing with guns )? That, afaik, is "The Cantabrian Circle".

[TheLastDays]

I know what you mean but I didn't know that's supposed to be the cantabrian circle.
The Cantabrian circle comes, in my logic, from Cantabria, hence the name, so northern Spain... And I really don't know much about it so I assumed that it actually worked the way it works ingame... not to surround the enemy but to give a constant volley of missiles and harder-to-hit targets....

[fomalhaut]

you are right, cantabrian circle isn't meant to encircle the enemy at all. it functions exactly as you state

[moonburn]

but encirclement is so much more fun :\

[CashMunny]

Yes, the Cantabrian circle was not used to encircle the enemy, however that tactic was employed by some horse nomads further east on occasion along with their beloved feints and Parthian shots.