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The Black Ship
11-15-2000, 07:04
OK...just went to the community forum for the first time in quite a while, and saw that some people still believe there is such a thing as a Gun Factory (a separate building that produces Portugese muskets).

IMO this building was dropped, much like the Father Visitor character. Only by creating the Cathedral can you make Papist muskets.

I've challenged others in the past to show me an actual screen shot of one, so any takers?

pls don't quote the tech tree, it's as flawed as the State of Florida's election process http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

P.S.: this is strictly a friendly challenge, don't get upset http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Rob
11-15-2000, 07:16
I'm convinced I built one in Hitachi ages ago.

Remember, you need
A) A citadel in the province
B) Christianity
C) An armoury in the province
D) A port and trading post in the province

This combination can be hard to achieve, so actually building a gun factory can be quite difficult. By the time I have built up the infrastructure to build one, I can usually get Dutch traders and get guns from them.

I also remember than the Gun Factory does not give any honour bonus to gun units as stated in the tech tree. If it did, it might just be worth building if you have nothing better to do. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 11-15-2000).]

solypsist
11-15-2000, 07:23
yes there is a gun factory available, at least in the u.s. version.
but it's a bit like mine-complexes, it's often not worth the time and funding. i often like to just wait out the years' difference and get guns from the dutch so i can escape christianity.

Rob
11-15-2000, 07:28
Mine complexes not worth it? No way! I almost always build mine complexes when I get the chance, at least in gold/silver provinces. They pay for themselves within 2 years in gold provinces, 3 in silver provinces and 5 in copper. That's a pretty good rate of return compared to ports and trading posts which always take between 5-8 years to pay off, or farming improvements which probably take even longer.

The Black Ship
11-15-2000, 08:27
Remember the challenge boys...I want some form of in-game pic.

Why build a Gun Factory when you get muskets once the Cathedral is finished? It's redundant!

Rob
11-15-2000, 09:10
What if you don't want the Cathedral? Build a Gun Factory and then you can have monks and muskets!

The Black Ship
11-15-2000, 11:17
Ah, but for Portugese guns you must convert... sorry wrong answer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif LOL

Really I'm just wantin' to see what this gun factory is Rob. It does not exist in my game, I've tried everything to make one- no dice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif I don't believe it exists http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

solypsist
11-15-2000, 13:23
BS- You believe in UFOs yet gun factories continue to elude you....hmm....

Magraev
11-15-2000, 14:35
Rob - remember to include the cost of a bigger castle (fortress) for the return of a mine complex. It takes way more than 5 years to repay a copper mine complex (maybe like 15-20 - do the math).

And yes you can build a gun factory - there's just no point unless you're a dedicated papist. You need a citadel, a port, a trading post (portugese OR dutch go figure) and an armory.

hecose
11-15-2000, 23:29
The gun factory does exist in STW. Visit the following webpage to see screenshots and also to download a saved game in which I built one in Aki.

The requirements to build a gun factory are: citadel, Portugese/Dutch trading post, armoury. However, I don't see any advantage in building it. My musketeers don't get extra honour. So, basically a Dutch trading post would do.
http://hecose.tripod.com

By the way, this is not a fan site. It's just one (1) page I've created to post some information about the gun factory.

Rob
11-16-2000, 01:18
Good point Magraev.

Total cost of port & trading post is:

500 for castle
1000 for large castle
1500 for port
1000 for trading post
Total cost : 4000 koku

Cost of Mine complex:
500 for castle
1000 for large castle
1500 for fortress
1000 for mine
1000 for mine complex
Total cost : 5000 koku

The trading post costs 4000 koku and generates AT MOST 400 koku per year.

Mine complex costs 5000 koku and generates AT LEAST 400 koku per year in copper provinces, 800 koku per year in silver and 1200 koku per year in gold.

That is STILL a substantially higher rate of return.

solypsist
11-16-2000, 02:11
Well I can see the point in mining complexes, but youre missing the more strategic value of ports.
A mining complex, for all it's expense, will not allow you to shift armies across the map, nor will it enable guns later. It's a far better value to build a port or ports and then a mining complex if one has the spare time/money to do it with.

Nelson
11-16-2000, 02:31
hecose, raising teppo in Owari or Tosa will get them the ashigaru +1 honor bonus.

Rob
11-16-2000, 03:09
Obviously ports are important for strategic purposes. It is not an 'either-or' question. I was merely responding to an earlier post that suggested mine complexes were of little or no value.

The Black Ship
11-16-2000, 06:44
Thanx Hecose...

Just to clarify, it appears you built a Dutch trading post, not a Portuguese one, is this true? If so, why the gun factory?

Since I posted this I've had chance to go test, and lo-n-behold I made one!!!
Can't thank you guys enuff for forcing me to eat crow, in this case I don't mind one bit http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

P.S. I did it with a Portuguese trading post province too. The only stupid thing I see is that by making the trading post the game automatically labels me a christian, so hell I might as well wait for the Dutch! This feature must have been added in case the AI already had built the Cathedral, and you just had to have muskets before the Dutchmen arrived. Like how in the hell are you goin to have enuff koku to build all the infrastructure, let alone all that build time, before they arrive!

[This message has been edited by The Black Ship (edited 11-16-2000).]

hecose
11-16-2000, 07:53
The Black Ship,

In that game, I have conquered all of Japan except for one province before I started building the gun factory. I was building it just for the heck of it. So I didn't really pay attention to whether I was trading with the Portugese or the Dutch. :-P That's why I am also not too sure about the requirements. I wonder whether there's some undocumented requirement which I happened to be lucky enough to fulfill without realising it. E.g. gun factories can only be built after a certain year. Something like that.

Anyway, I don't see much point in building a gun factory. This is the only game I have ever built one. Usually I trade with the Portugese and then built 6 churches + 1 cathedral to get musketeers. Else I'll just wait for the Dutch. Somewhere in the manual it says you can train musketeers cheaper with a gun factory, but I have not observed that happening in the game. (actually I haven't really checked) Has anyone noticed?

Nelson,

Thanks for the tip. However both Owari & Tosa don't have iron sand deposits. So I can't build a gun factory (which needs an armoury) there. But indeed I can build trading posts there to train gunners.

The Black Ship
11-16-2000, 08:01
Hecose,

read my edited reply...and thanks again for the motivation http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Rob
11-16-2000, 09:56
The point is this:
You could go Christian, build a gun factory, then revert to Buddhism, by building a temple. Your gun factory would continue to produce muskets.

I wonder if the cathedral still works if you revert to Buddhism? I seem to remember a long thread or two over at the community forum which came to the conclusion that the whole Christianity thing was buggy as hell.

The Black Ship
11-16-2000, 11:32
Right you are Rob http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif, you can convert back and forth without any penalties, other than loyalty. Cathedrals will still provide a new-found Buddhist daimyo extra koku too... seems totally wrong doesn't it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif but it's true http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

Rob
11-16-2000, 11:42
Like I said, buggy as hell. The whole Christianity system seems a bit strange. Obviously it underwent some last-minute changes (including the removal of the Father Visitor) but these resulted in the whole thing being messed up.

We await correction of this in a patch http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Magraev
11-16-2000, 14:38
Rob - just to wrap up...

I agree with you that mine complexes are worth having for gold and silver. Not so sure about copper though.

If you set out to build a mine complex in a copper region with no pre built buildings it will take 86 seasons for the investment to pay off if you figure 100 koku pr season for income + 36 seasons build time. That's a long time to wait.

It will take 53 seasons to repay a gold mine complex, and 61 to repay a silver. Offcourse you can use the region for other buildings, withch makes it more worthwile to spend the koku on castles.

Just adding pointless numbers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Tenchimuyo
11-16-2000, 22:44
Quote Originally posted by The Black Ship:
[B]Ah, but for Portugese guns you must convert... sorry wrong answer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif LOL[/QUOTE]

Damn it, why don't we just kidnap one of those papist yokes and force the fellow to make us them fire shooting sticks by tickle his feet. Well ain't that something!:mad


[This message has been edited by Tenchimuyo (edited 11-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tenchimuyo (edited 11-16-2000).]

BanzaiZAP
11-18-2000, 01:17
One thing you guys are forgetting about your "cost" comparisons: certain of those items are in both lists, and can be crossed off (subtracting "x" from both sides of the equation). Also, many of the required items are things you are going to want anyway. After all, there are many reasons to have a citadel, not just gun factories. Likewise, you're going to put up an armory, regardless of whether or not you're getting guns. Ditto for the mine complexes - I'm going to need fortresses, mining or no mining! Seems redundant to factor in the cost of something that you're going to be building anyway.

-- B)

solypsist
11-18-2000, 01:49
Well building fortresses is an expensive endeavor, and most people cant afford to build them in provinces that dont have the most benfits.
I would rather build a fortress in a province that allows an armory and some kind of troop bonus, and with port (Mori's starting kingdom comes to mind) rather than in some bumpkin province that has poor farming and a one mining opportunity. So you're not going to "build one anyway", at least not in every province.

Sengoku
11-18-2000, 01:52
Quote Originally posted by BanzaiZAP:
One thing you guys are forgetting about your "cost" comparisons: certain of those...

-- B)[/QUOTE]

I think it would seem a much more worthwhile investment if the Gun Factory actually gave something useful, such as a *real* weapon upgrade (i.e. not just the Swordsmith which improves only melee mode). The Gun Factory takes a fair time to build.

Randy the first
02-03-2001, 07:24
In my instructions it say "Once built the cost of training gun men is reduced."
But the price has stayed the same
125 for arquebusiers and 175 for musketeers.

Tenchimuyo
02-03-2001, 20:49
c'mon! I build it all the time.

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9006/tenchi.gif

ingram77331
06-28-2001, 01:43
if the price of guns doesn't go down whats the point of building a factory.

Yoko Kono
06-28-2001, 02:16
Building a gun factory allows the province to produce arqubusiers and musketeers of +1 Honor
You require a dutch or portuguese trading post and a citadel and armoury in the province

*Note*
Building a Cathedral before or after a gun factory negates its +1 Honor effect, possibly a bug, but this does mean ALL your trading posts can produce muskeeters

Koga No Goshi
06-28-2001, 02:23
I was just about to whip up a screenshot because I had the option to build gun factories in like 4 of my coastal provinces as Hojo... then just remembered I deleted that savegame because all the enemy daimyo died and it was all ronin on the map. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

As far as I know, gun factory becomes available mostly after accepting Portuguese deal. I'm sure it's linked to certain castle size, etc., but I haven't paid close attention so I can't verify or dispute what others have said about requirements, I Just know it pops up in my build menu a lot. The advantage of gun factory is that it lets you reject Christianity and still keep guns. In other words, you could have a Portuguese trading post and a church in a province, build the gun factory, and then build a Buddhist Temple and still keep the guns while getting rid of Christianity. Isn't this right, everyone? I know I've totally gotten rid of Christian status before, and I think that's how you do it.



------------------
Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

Steeleye
06-28-2001, 04:18
isn't this all rather immaterial anyway?

I don't think I've ever got to the stage where I've been in a position to build a gun factory before the game ended (heck, most of the time I don't get to build HC..)

Kyodaispan

celtiberoijontychi
06-30-2001, 09:45
Yes there must be a bug

HOW IT SHOULD WORK
Gun factory is the stage where the japanese have learnt to build their own guns. They don't need the jesuits or the dutch. So they don't need to pay them extra gold for the technology. Hence the units become cheaper.
Another advantage is that you can convert to budhism or christianity or even become ateist (yes it's possible), by wich way you loose the ability to train certain units and get others.

HOW IT ACTUALLY WORKS
You can sign a treaty with the priests, u build a trading post. when it's finished, yoou can build a temple, even in the same province, even if there's a church there.
And you can still build more trading posts in other provinces (Ateist status).
So it is very advisable to become christian, since you can recert back to buddism whenever it fits you and you still have the guns.
The loyalty stuff is almost irrelevant unless u build churhces and priests.
Problems may happen if you play Mori, since the peasants there are quite fundamentalistic.

irish_kh
06-30-2001, 11:31
I have a UK (European ??} version of shogun. I build a gun factory every time i play the campaign. It is usually the last building I have access to in the game but it always there. I only trade with the Dutch and never go Christian with the Portugeuse. The only suggestion I have for your problem is that you are trading with the wrong people.

noah1234
07-05-2001, 09:08
Hey guys, you say that building the gun factory allows you to make musketeers without becoming Christian....nevermind, that's off my topic.

On the screenshot, it says that you need either a Portugeuse or Dutch trading post to make the gun factory...but here's the thing...

It says that you must have a cathedral! Now, I haven't played for about two weeks, but isn't it impossible to have a cathedral when trading with Dutch? They don't convert you to Christianity, you can't build churches, so you can't build cathedral, so doesn't that mean no gun factory when trading with Dutch?

hecose
07-05-2001, 10:37
You don't need a cathedral for the Gun Factory. You need a citadel (largest type of castle). Check screenshot at hecose.tripod.com/GunFactory.html

Sengoku
07-06-2001, 00:08
The Gun Factory never requires you to go Christian, you do not need a cathedral or any churches. All you need is:
1)Acceptance of Portugese trading offer
2)A portugese trading post
3)A CITADEL (the largest type of castle)
4)An armoury of any kind
incidentally, you can never build the Gun Factory when trading with the Dutch. So in this case I see no reason at all to go Christian, other than it makes the game more exciting.

Jaxem
07-06-2001, 01:17
I have built a gun factory while trading with the dutch but it still didn't seem to do anything. My troops were not cheaper or more honorable.


-J

Shuko
07-06-2001, 10:19
I also have built a gun factory while trading with the Dutch only. I assumed it would produce cheaper gunners for me. Often the game is nearly over at this stage so it is not a big concern as the koku is rolling in faster than you can spend it. Will have to make just 1 gun unit in a turn (not Autumn) and see exactly what is costs from the factory.

CLAN CELTIBEROS
07-08-2001, 01:48
I write this like Celtiberos Shimazu, no in name of Celtiberos Clan.


One strange thing:
The flag of the Portuguese Gun Factory, is a Spanish Flag. But this is also a mistake, because that Spanish Flag, wasn't use, until 1775.
Portugal changued his flag, some times in the Modern Age, and had flags and banner for Navy, and ground armies, and NONE, is the flag of the Portuguese Gun Factory. You can see that flags here: http://pub40.ezboard.com/fforoceltiberos11660frm1.showMessage?topicID=323.topic

i´m sorry, that post is in spanish, in a few days i´ll post in the STW Forum, in English.

NARF
07-08-2001, 03:07
Ok, the gun fatory is wrong, woohoo. But Actually Ive never been able to get a gun factory. (somehow that rhymed) And Ive gotten every building known in this game, including the armory. Any ideas?