Possible ban on halal/kosher meat in the Neds

[Fragony]

Without applying sedation first that is, orthodox jews and to a lesser extend muslims are crying foul over this complete with the inevitable Godwins.

We have been on this road before but would like to know what you think anyway as it's quite the discussion here. Halal and kosher isn't cruel if the butcher is able, but if the animal isn't properly cut it will suffer for quite some time as the job won't be finished because imaginary friends say it has to be one single cut, it can last for minutes and the animal is fully concious. I have zero patience with their religion personally, they can move to Israel or Muslimstan if it's that big a deal, or import it.

[rory_20_uk]

I think making it illegal is a bad idea, as it is not a fight worth fighting. Regulating the practice with heavy fines for breaches is OK.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

I think making it illegal is a bad idea, as it is not a fight worth fighting. Regulating the practice with heavy fines for breaches is OK.

~:smoking:

What breaches, if the animal is sedated it's no longer kosher/halal, same with a second cut, so it's basicly a full ban. I'm ok with that I don't find their spicelaws as important as a quik and painless death for the animal. I know muslims to be flexible with this and most butchers will cut twice, but orthodox jews are united in pitytude. Screw that, get with it or wail at your wall.

[Skullheadhq]

What breaches, if the animal is sedated it's no longer kosher/halal, same with a second cut, so it's basicly a full ban. I'm ok with that I don't find their spicelaws as important as a quik and painless death for the animal. I know muslims to be flexible with this and most butchers will cut twice, but orthodox jews are united in pitytude. Screw that, get with it or wail at your wall.

Says the person who has his proclamation of support to Israel in his signature :clown:

[Fragony]

Says the person who has his proclamation of support to Israel in his signature :clown:

I indiscriminately discriminate :bow:

[Cute Wolf]

hey, does this meant I can properly sedate a dog and slaughter it for eating afterwards when I come to Netherlands? or some Cats? I'd love to take part time job on Dog control team that way :D

/sarcasm

what's the point of banning halal/kosher foods because they're cruel? if you think eating animals is cruel, go vegan then :D

[Fragony]

hey, does this meant I can properly sedate a dog and slaughter it for eating afterwards when I come to Netherlands? or some Cats? I'd love to take part time job on Dog control team that way :D

/sarcasm

what's the point of banning halal/kosher foods because they're cruel? if you think eating animals is cruel, go vegan then :D

Meat is good. But making ammends to people with imaginary friends is not, if the animal suffers because they don't want to finish it of, well no

[Cute Wolf]

Meat is good. But making ammends to people with imaginary friends is not, if the animal suffers because they don't want to finish it of, well no

If you have some experience with properly slaughtering animals via simple cut to the neck, you can see it yourself that a the animals in question doesn't suffer much. A sharp knife cut their neck, and quickly drain their blood, will result in death very quickly, about 3 minutes or 4, typically. And if you eat sedated animals, you'll also eat the chemichal compounds, especially if the sedative is halogen-derivative, that'll be harmful to human body.

BTW: Snapping the neck of Chickens typically result in instant death, if you can do that for cows, however...

[Fragony]

If you have some experience with properly slaughtering animals via simple cut to the neck, you can see it yourself that a the animals in question doesn't suffer much. A sharp knife cut their neck, and quickly drain their blood, will result in death very quickly, about 3 minutes or 4, typically. And if you eat sedated animals, you'll also eat the chemichal compounds, especially if the sedative is halogen-derivative, that'll be harmful to human body.

BTW: Snapping the neck of Chickens typically result in instant death, if you can do that for cows, however...

I know, but point is is that it doesn't always go well, and gawd forbids a second cut, it takes a while before it's dead when it goes wrong and that is simply unnecessary. Scew their spicelaws

edit: for you shocked by 3 a 4 minutes that is before meat is drained, not the actual death

[Cute Wolf]

I know, but point is is that it doesn't always go well, and gawd forbids a second cut, it takes a while before it's dead when it goes wrong and that is simply unnecessary. Scew their spicelaws

well, who say God forbids a second cut? at least for Muslims, I know that they can took another cut if the animal's blood doesn't drain much faster, or the animals doesn't die too long. I personally think most of those who think slaughtering animal is cruelty is persons who never do proper slaughter themselves. Just try it yourself, buy a Chicken, prepares a big bowl full of boiling water, and then cut it's neck near the head. Drain the blood, and then put the chicken on boiling water to scrap the feathers. If you want to eat the blood however, you can optionally put the blood- spurting neck on a bowl (both muslims and jews doesn't ate blood, Chinese did)

[Centurion1]

the funny thing is slaughtehouses dont mess up. its a sledge to the head a gunshot or a giant blade. often delivered by a machine so yeah..........

[Subotan]

It's heartwarming to see Jews and Muslims united against a common enemy :yes:

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's heartwarming to see Jews and Muslims united against a common enemy :yes:Defenseless sheep and cows?

[Subotan]

Hey, I didn't comment on whether I thought that the common enemy was one they should be fighting.

In all seriousness though, this is the kind of thing which the secular government will put its foot down on in the name of a humane, tolerant society (Tolerant to animals, that is), backwards-looking people will whine and complain about it, before forgetting all about within five years time. Sacrificing a pig in the Temple, this is not.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think making it illegal is a bad idea, as it is not a fight worth fighting. Regulating the practice with heavy fines for breaches is OK.

~:smoking:

It's actually not about religious practice/beliefs, not even about halal/kosher food. It is simply about requiring the animal be sedated before slaughtered. There would be no problem if people choose to have the animals slaughtered in, say, Germany and import the meat back to the Netherlands. :shrug:

[HoreTore]

Bah!

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights.

Let's ban hunting while we're at it, should we? Not only are none of the animals sedated when killed, 10% of them are only wounded, and run off to bleed to death. Utter nonsense. Animals are food, nothing else.


the funny thing is slaughtehouses dont mess up.

Are you serious or being sarcastic?

[jabarto]

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights.

Oh stow it. Respect for sentient life is a Big Deal whether religion is involved or not.

I won't go into too much detail on the religious aspect of this. Suffice it to say that I take grave issue with a lot of Jewish traditions and the conditions of kosher slaughterhouses is pretty high up there.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Bah!

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights. Those animal welfare activist types (with whom this law originated, incidentally) are all anti Semites in disguise!!! :gah:

[HoreTore]

Oh stow it. Respect for sentient life is a Big Deal whether religion is involved or not.

I won't go into too much detail on the religious aspect of this. Suffice it to say that I take grave issue with a lot of Jewish traditions and the conditions of kosher slaughterhouses is pretty high up there.

......And yet you still eat meat. I really cannot see much difference between kosher slaughter and the way we others slaughter animals. Animals are goaded with electroshocks, sedation often fails resulting in animals scolded alive, the transportation is absolute cruelty(this one is the worst by far IMO), we wound animals while hunting, etc etc.

Still, I eat meat. Since I put up with the cruelty we treat our animals with, I see no reason why kosher meat should be banned.





But then again, I don't hate the joooooooooooooooooos.

[Hax]

What should be mentioned is that, me being a vegetarian, I haven't eaten meat for quite some time now.

I was only wondering to what extent we're aware of whether animals suffer more (can we even apply human concept such as "suffering", which clearly implies some sort of consciousness on animals?) or less regarding on the way they are killed. I've read that animals suffer less when they are slaughtered in the kosher/halal fashion because their spinal cords are immediately cut, thus reducing the connection of the brain with the rest of the organs. Then again, I've read conflicting reports that suggest animals suffer more, because they are fully conscious of their agony until all blood has seeped away.

Can't we first get any scientific consensus on this all before talking about legal or ethical implications?

[jabarto]

Oh forget it. It's not worth the infraction.

[Centurion1]

Bah!

This is pure racism(of the anti-semite variant) disguised as animal rights.

Let's ban hunting while we're at it, should we? Not only are none of the animals sedated when killed, 10% of them are only wounded, and run off to bleed to death. Utter nonsense. Animals are food, nothing else.



Are you serious or being sarcastic?

90% sarcasm. Though it is true that the animal usually instantaneously dies especially in well run automated factories

Edit: though 90% of the factories aren't efficient and well run.

Edit: maybe a 100%

[Incongruous]

This is absurd, they're just animals, why can't one decide how one kills an animal (torturing is not killing, slitting a throat is not torture it's killing)? It's an impairment of one's free use of liberty without good cause, protecting the rights of farm animals at the cost of curbing those of a group of humans is in this case wrong.

[Fragony]

Don't see how it's curbing anyone's rights, they will still be free to import it. If they want kosher and halal they can have it, just not from the Netherlands

[jabarto]

This is absurd, they're just animals, why can't one decide how one kills an animal (torturing is not killing, slitting a throat is not torture it's killing)? It's an impairment of one's free use of liberty without good cause, protecting the rights of farm animals at the cost of curbing those of a group of humans is in this case wrong.

It is a true testament to human narrowmindedness that even in the year 2011 we hold the anachronisms of Bronze-age savages in higher regard than the respectful treatment of other beings. Then again, I'm apparently an anti-Semite because I value compassion over tradition, so what would I know?

[Fragony]

It is a true testament to human narrowmindedness that even in the year 2011 we hold the anachronisms of Bronze-age savages in higher regard than the respectful treatment of other beings. Then again, I'm apparently an anti-Semite because I value compassion over tradition, so what would I know?

AND an islamphobe. But yeah.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What about freedom of religion? I thought the continentals loved 'positive freedoms'...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yeah you're still free to believe in whatever thing you like and segregate yourself from the rest accordingly. You just are not allowed to slaughter animals in whatever way you like. Perspective.

[Strike For The South]

Why poke the hornets nest if you don't have to?

[naut]

Why poke the hornets nest if you don't have to?
For the adrenaline rush.

[HoreTore]

Modern methods of slalso why aughter are compassionate....? Modern slaughter is respectful treatment...? Now I've heard everything.

Yes, we respect our animals soooooo much, that's why we torture them by driving them across the country in a hot trailer! It's also why we scold chickens alive! Hooray! /sarcasm

And I haven't even mentioned the fur industry yet. But I'm late for skewl, so I'll keep this short: most people look down upon what they call "medieval slaughter". I'd say we should look towards the medieval period when it comes to animal welfare. That should be our benchmark. We need regulation of slaughter, but that's not because we were cruel in the middle ages, but because the industrial revolution has enabled almost unlimited cruelty. That is what we should aim to curb, not how things have been done for millennia. I believe hunting is perfectly fine. As hunting is perfectly fine, I don't see why other slaughter should be done in a more restricted way.



If people actually cared about animal welfare, they'd get rid of fur farms and unnecessarily long transportation ages before they even started to think about kosher. Unless they hate the joooooos, that is.

[Fragony]

Do not forget that we also hate teh muslims. Slaughter animals that are to be slaughtered kosher/halal are transported the same way, moot point. We don't have long distances here by the way 2 hours max.

@Hax, with an able butcher the animal is almost instantly braindead, and I doubt they feel the cutting.

[HoreTore]

Do not forget that we also hate teh muslims. Slaughter animals that are to be slaughtered kosher/halal are transported the same way, moot point. We don't have long distances here by the way 2 hours max.

@Hax, with an able butcher the animal is almost instantly braindead, and I doubt they feel the cutting.

The point you missed, Frags, was that there are countless issues animal rights people object to when it comes to slaughtering animals, and I have mentioned a few of them.

However, the only issue that can get banned, is kosher slaughter. I find it incredibly hard to explain that with a reason other than hatred of the jews or racism in general. If people actually cared about the animals, there are plenty of issues they would address long before they got to kosher, like transportation and fur farms.

[Kralizec]

The discussion is about the slaughter itself, not the way animals are treated before that. And unless muslims and jews breed their own lifestock for slaughter (do they?), the point is moot anyway.

Unsedated slaughter already was illegal, but till now there have been exemptions for religious rites. Personally I'm leaning towards keeping them.

Banning the practice and yet allowing imports would be hypocritical, IMO.

[Fragony]

The point you missed, Frags, was that there are countless issues animal rights people object to when it comes to slaughtering animals, and I have mentioned a few of them.

However, the only issue that can get banned, is kosher slaughter. I find it incredibly hard to explain that with a reason other than hatred of the jews or racism in general. If people actually cared about the animals, there are plenty of issues they would address long before they got to kosher, like transportation and fur farms.

It's normal that leftists know what you are really thinking and won't accept any explanation other than racism. Rather tiring.

@Krazilec I disagree, allowing it because some like howling to the moon or whatever it is they do is hypocritical. If other countries allow it what's it to us, they are free to leave or get it from there

[Slyspy]

On the face of it allowing exemptions for religious reasons is absurd.

[HoreTore]

It's normal that leftists know what you are really thinking and won't accept any explanation other than racism. Rather tiring.

@Krazilec I disagree, allowing it because some like howling to the moon or whatever it is they do is hypocritical. If other countries allow it what's it to us, they are free to leave or get it from there

Please, if you have another explanation, do explain why kosher meat should be banned and fur farms(or one of the other practices animal rights activists object to) should continue.

[Subotan]

It's normal that leftists know what you are really thinking and won't accept any explanation other than racism. Rather tiring.
...

In all seriousness though, this is the kind of thing which the secular government will put its foot down on in the name of a humane, tolerant society (Tolerant to animals, that is), backwards-looking people will whine and complain about it, before forgetting all about within five years time. Sacrificing a pig in the Temple, this is not.
;_;

[Kralizec]

Actually, the Dutch parliament is cracking down on the mink fur industry as well.

Norway has already banned ritual slaughter. Going by what you've said in this thread, I take it your government is racist?

[Fragony]

Please, if you have another explanation, do explain why kosher meat should be banned and fur farms(or one of the other practices animal rights activists object to) should continue.

Been said already, compassion > tradition

[rajpoot]

I seem to remember that there was another such thread, about the way animals are killed or something, quite a while back. It was in Frontroom though, if I remember correctly.

I'd made a post there, and I hadn't been able to get my point across very well. Let's see if I succeed now.

Edit: I reread what I wrote and it actually does not make sense.
To make a long story short, killing is killing. It is inhuman. It is not our right to judge whether the method in which we kill is more humane than the method someone else uses, because I'm sure that if the animal had any say in the thing, it would have probably said that it shouldn't be killed at all.

[HoreTore]

Actually, the Dutch parliament is cracking down on the mink fur industry as well.

Good. Way overdue.


Norway has already banned ritual slaughter. Going by what you've said in this thread, I take it your government is racist?

The law is from 1929. I think it's safe to assume racism here.


Been said already, compassion > tradition

That does nothing to explain your lack of compassion to the mistreatment in fur farms.

[Fragony]

That does nothing to explain your lack of compassion to the mistreatment in fur farms.

I haven't made any statements about fur farms, but if you are interested I'm against it unless it are jewish minks

[HoreTore]

I haven't made any statements about fur farms

....and that's kinda the point, isn't it?

[Fragony]

....and that's kinda the point, isn't it?

well no

[Cute Wolf]

man, I'm gonna buy a monkey and slice it's head alive so I can eat it's brain to commemorate this.... (monkey brain soup traditionally taken while the monkey is alive, then dunked quickly into hot boiling broth and tofu, and I hold traditons, it's proud Indonesian delicacy, and it was halal*)

....

You must know that the "kosher/halal" methods of animal slaughter are much more "humane" than other methods, and you shouldn't bought fish then, because fish was frozen alive... without sedations...

*. According to muslims who also drunk beers :laugh4:

[Hax]

You must know that the "kosher/halal" methods of animal slaughter are much more "humane" than other methods,

Not necessarily. There is no real scientific consensus about it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not necessarily. There is no real scientific consensus about it.Meh. I wonder how much lack of scientific consensus there is if one disregards religiously inspired or funded scientists who claim that an animal shot through the brain suffers as much as an animal which slowly bleeds to death.

Religion can never win from science on science's own turf. Not regarding evolution, or criticism of the laws of physics, or wild claims about the scientific value of the Bible or Koran, or 'first cause' God evidences. It is all a death end. Religion will always lose out. It merely serves as a means for the religious to cover their ears and eyes for what they would otherwise see is true.

Better, I think, is to argue that the religious slaughter tradition acknlowedges that one is dealing with a live being. That man and animal are kept in touch, look each other in the eye as it were. Whereas it is the scientific tradition which has invented industrial biology. Which has moved animals away from people, has given secular industrial society the means to cover its eyes and ears for the plight of sentient beings.
It is not a pretty sight, to kill an animal, to hang it upside down, skin it, cut out the intestines. It is far removed from the 'fun food' you see on your plate. A distance which has allowed the industry to commit all sorts of sins with both the well-being of the animal and the health of the human consumer.

[Hax]

I am in complete agreeance, but still, I don't think we should deny any form of science pursued by religious people out of hand.



Better, I think, is to argue that the religious slaughter tradition acknlowedges that one is dealing with a live being. That man and animal are kept in touch, look each other in the eye as it were. Whereas it is the scientific tradition which has invented industrial biology. Which has moved animals away from people, has given secular industrial society the means to cover its eyes and ears for the plight of sentient beings.
It is not a pretty sight, to kill an animal, to hang it upside down, skin it, cut out the intestines. It is far removed from the 'fun food' you see on your plate. A distance which has allowed the industry to commit all sorts of sins with both the well-being of the animal and the health of the human consumer.

Exactly this. Couldn't have worded it better myself. In which you have also outlined the reason why I've abstained from eating meat for six years.

[Beirut]

This is absurd, they're just animals, . . .

That is no excuse to be cruel to them. Indeed we often measure our humanity by how we treat animals.

It's not such a bad standard to apply.

[Skullheadhq]

man, I'm gonna buy a monkey and slice it's head alive so I can eat it's brain to commemorate this....

mmmm.... delicious..... :clown:
I want some!

[Cute Wolf]

mmmm.... delicious..... :clown:
I want some!

100% Animal Cruelty :wink:
only in South East Asia :thumbsup:

(no, I'm not bought any monkey yet, actually I ate steamed potato for breakfast today)

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

[a completely inoffensive name]

As long as the sale of halal/kosher meat is not banned, I don't see what the problem is. If the regulations state that halal/kosher meat is treated in a way that violates the rules which state that the duty of the government is to make sure food is safe and humanely prepared, then the regulations should stand.

If their way of life is not threatened, then there is no violation of religion here in my book. If all the halal/kosher meat simply switches from "Made in the Netherlands" to "Made in x country." What is the problem?

EDIT: To make my point more clear, what I saying is: if they can still buy it, then I don't see what the problem is.

[HoreTore]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

[Samurai Waki]

Unless you're the one killing the animal, and butchering the meat I hardly see a reason to complain. The bigger issues are the industrial sized ranches churning out pathetic quality meat by animals that are treated horribly in their time of living. Happy cows are tasty cows.

[HoreTore]

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

What's the difference between cutting it and letting it bleed to death(the kosher way) and scolding it alive(our way)?

[gaelic cowboy]

Bah two pages of an absolute rubbish "Oh no halal/kosher meat could be banned" boo hoo if they were all hungry enough they wouldnt give a toss where the meat came from.

[Incongruous]

That is no excuse to be cruel to them. Indeed we often measure our humanity by how we treat animals.

It's not such a bad standard to apply.

...
We breed them to be slaughtered and eaten, slitting their throats is hardly crueler than that.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What's the difference between cutting it and letting it bleed to death(the kosher way) and scolding it alive(our way)?

False dichotomy. It is not given that "our way" is scolding it alive. Do you somehow know that every slaughterhouse in Europe and North America scolds them alive?

The difference is in intent and in the pain factor. If you deny that a bullet to the head is quicker and less painful then having your head bashed in with a rock, then you have lost at living in reality.

An electrical zap that knocks the animal unconscious and disrupts breathing is quick, painless and they don't suffer as much as slicing their throats open as they hang from a cable wide awake.

It is also less malicious in intent. Killing animals to eat is not an "inhumane" action. It is nature and does not subscribe or allow itself to be applied with human concepts of humane or inhumane. Cats are not "inhumane" creatures for capturing and killing mice to eat. The act of killing the animal itself is always inhumane though and should be recognized as regrettable because we have the ability to actually think about our actions. There is a lot of nuance here that you and many others in this thread entirely skip over in order to make your general point.

We are not monsters because we eat other animals, but we can be monsters due to how we go about it. Bleeding a pig out while it hangs upside down is backwards and is obviously more pain and suffering for the animal then a usual factory farm that kills them in a quicker, more efficient pattern.

This detracts from the point I made in the first place though, which is that if this kosher way is less sanitary or healthy then normal western preparation, then the ban is fine as long as it doesn't ban the product outright.

[Fragony]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

[Viking]

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

No, now you are mixing things up. There are concerns about the welfare about animals because we believe that it causes them suffering if they are treated badly. The pain that a cow feel is irrelevant to whether some people consider the animal holy or not.


...
We breed them to be slaughtered and eaten, slitting their throats is hardly crueler than that.

It would only be cruel if they could understand the plot and feel uneasy about it, something which I doubt.. Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

[HoreTore]

False dichotomy. It is not given that "our way" is scolding it alive. Do you somehow know that every slaughterhouse in Europe and North America scolds them alive?

Yes, every slaughterhouse that sedates chickens with electroshocks ends up scolding quite a few of them alive. The alternative is of course to choke them with CO2, sounds like fun.

Not that I care, I bought enough chicken products yesterday to last till the end of the month. It's food, not humans.

[HoreTore]

Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

True.

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....




As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

[Kralizec]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

[HoreTore]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

Don't worry: I frequently agree with Frags, and that one time hell froze over, me and Furunculus was also in perfect agreement! ~;)

[Samurai Waki]

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

Perhaps in the Neds... it's an absolute disgrace for the USA and it's mostly because people are hopelessly addicted to processed meat, say the words "Cut back a bit if you can't afford good quality" doesn't ring with many people here... so bad quality has absorbed the market, and nobody cares because of government subsidies that have choked the profitability out of sustainable and dare-I-say humane ranching/farming methods.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, every slaughterhouse that sedates chickens with electroshocks ends up scolding quite a few of them alive. The alternative is of course to choke them with CO2, sounds like fun.

Not that I care, I bought enough chicken products yesterday to last till the end of the month. It's food, not humans.

My point still stands though. If a few chickens are still alive it is because of a mechanical or design problem, not an issue stemming from malicious intent.

It's like criticizing the justice system because a few guilty people got away and few innocent got locked up. There won't be any justice system that won't have that happen just as there won't be an automated slaughterhouse that will perfectly sedate every chicken.

So again the difference is, we attempt at making death as peaceful as possible for the animals out of respect while the other way has religious words whispered into the frighten pigs ear right before it feels its throat slit. The emphasis on the latter is not on the animal but the religious undertones while the focus on the western style is all about the animal. This is the crux of the matter here and I don't see what you are trying to say. Are all methods equal to you?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Perhaps in the Neds... it's an absolute disgrace for the USA and it's mostly because people are hopelessly addicted to processed meat, say the words "Cut back a bit if you can't afford good quality" doesn't ring with many people here... so bad quality has absorbed the market, and nobody cares because of government subsidies that have choked the profitability out of sustainable and dare-I-say humane ranching/farming methods.

People are not addicted to processed meat, they are addicted to cheap meat. Big difference. I once had a fresh, natural ranched steak and my taste buds were never happier, but I still enjoy Wendy's when I am hungry just because I am happy to get so much food for so little.

[Viking]

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....

As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

[Fragony]

People are not addicted to processed meat, they are addicted to cheap meat. Big difference. I once had a fresh, natural ranched steak and my taste buds were never happier, but I still enjoy Wendy's when I am hungry just because I am happy to get so much food for so little.

OT we have the best thing evar here, a culinary take-away. Yesterday I had one with belgian-mayonnaise, truffle flakes and parmasan cheese & roasted lemon skin. Tasty indeed.

[HoreTore]

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

[HoreTore]

My point still stands though. If a few chickens are still alive it is because of a mechanical or design problem, not an issue stemming from malicious intent.

It's like criticizing the justice system because a few guilty people got away and few innocent got locked up. There won't be any justice system that won't have that happen just as there won't be an automated slaughterhouse that will perfectly sedate every chicken.

So again the difference is, we attempt at making death as peaceful as possible for the animals out of respect while the other way has religious words whispered into the frighten pigs ear right before it feels its throat slit. The emphasis on the latter is not on the animal but the religious undertones while the focus on the western style is all about the animal. This is the crux of the matter here and I don't see what you are trying to say. Are all methods equal to you?

Define "malicious intent".

The people doing it are fully aware that what they're doing results in chickens being fried alive. It's not a freak occurrence, it's the result of their actions. And they don't give a crap about that and proceed with business as usual.

If kosher slaughter is "malicious intent", how is this not the same?

[Fragony]

Define "malicious intent".

The people doing it are fully aware that what they're doing results in chickens being fried alive. It's not a freak occurrence, it's the result of their actions. And they don't give a crap about that and proceed with business as usual.

If kosher slaughter is "malicious intent", how is this not the same?

They aren't fried alive they get hauled through an electrified water pool to knock them out. Have you actually seen a slaughterhouse from the inside.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Define "malicious intent".

The people doing it are fully aware that what they're doing results in chickens being fried alive. It's not a freak occurrence, it's the result of their actions. And they don't give a crap about that and proceed with business as usual.

If kosher slaughter is "malicious intent", how is this not the same?

Malicious intent the way I am using it means that the culture/society in which the food is being prepared has blatant disregard for any respect towards the animals they will be eating because they have their own traditions that they feel trump any sort of acquiescence to animals they are slaughtering. Does that really apply to western factories? No, not really unless you stretch the truth a lot.

It is a freak occurrence when it only happens to 1 out of every 100 or 1000 chickens. You just said it happens to quite a few of them. Unless I am misunderstanding the term quite a few doesn't mean majority or even close to it. What you are describing isn't what the method is supposed to be. The method is supposed to be to sedate them so they don't feel pain when they are killed. That shows that the culture respects the animal even when it is implemented badly. Purposely slicing it when it is still awake and not caring just because it is religious tradition and "god wants it that way" is malicious to the animal because they are purposely refusing to respect the animal.

Also, workers at the factory who don't care != society. The religious communities want to adhere to kosher rules and don't care about the animal or how much it feels pain. Western factories have government mandated and culturally acceptable ways of attempting to lessen or negate the pain for the animal. Just because the process might actually suck and actually does hurt a lot of the animals and just because the workers themselves might not care because they are desensitized from working there doesn't mean that suddenly both groups are on equal footing. One group is taking measures, the other group isn't.

[HoreTore]

They aren't fried alive they get hauled through an electrified water pool to knock them out. Have you actually seen a slaughterhouse from the inside.

Yes, and that sedation works when the chicken is of normal height and doesn't wiggle. If it's small or wiggles, they often miss it, and they also miss the blade from time to time. No miss on the scolding though.

[Fragony]

Yes, and that sedation works when the chicken is of normal height and doesn't wiggle. If it's small or wiggles, they often miss it, and they also miss the blade from time to time. No miss on the scolding though.

They are completely underwater no matter their size, feathers come of better when they are wet.

[Slyspy]

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

You keep bringing up fur farms when it has little or no relevance. Neither does transportation, which is required even if the meat is to be halal or kosher.

[Viking]

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

That is still not to say that the lesser sufferings should not be stopped.. They do not have to come at the expense of each other.

As for the 'terrible' transportation, I wonder if you have som links to come up with - it rings no bells here.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Hore - what you ought to do, is to show that despite the existence of all sorts of animal abuse, ritual slaughter is singled out.

This would then show that this is about Dutch anti-Islamic sentiment, instead of about animal rights concerns. Kosher simply being thron into the mix to avoid allegations of racism, and because the Jewish and Islamic traditions happen to be not dissimilar in this area.

Fur farms, animal transports, poor conditions of raising livestock - either these are all tackled, or this is about Islam.



Well bless the internets!:




Dutch raise animal rights to new level

It has been a busy few weeks for Marianne Thieme. Ten days ago, she made history as one of two animal-rights candidates to win election to the Dutch parliament.
They are the first animal-rights MPs anywhere in the world.

This 'Animal Rights Party' is the origin of the possible ban on ritual slaughter:




Amsterdam - A leading Dutch animal rights politician Thursday demanded that an end to be put to ritual slaughters of animals in The Netherlands, while cautioning that this stance is not meant as criticism of the Muslim and Jewish faiths.
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/features/article_1396306.php/Animal_rights_MP_demands_end_to_ritual_slaughters
The populist right too is about animal rights. Free from the ancient alliances with agricultural interests and local rural entanglements of the old right, the Fragony's of this world can finally impose a long-standing electoral majority in favour of more animal rights:




If it sounds like an idea inspired by the Animal Planet show "Animal Cops," it's because it was. There will soon be 500 police officers on the streets of Holland protecting the welfare of the country's animals. The proposal originated with a uniquely powerful animal rights political party -- and brought to fruition by Geert Wilders' anti-Islam Party for Freedom.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,747345,00.html


Common cause between new political parties then, who force the entire political structure towards their goals. It shows what society can do in a short time when freed of the constraints of old polical entanglements in general, and old multicultural reflexes in this particular case.

[Fragony]

I may have to kill him one day

[Samurai Waki]

People are not addicted to processed meat, they are addicted to cheap meat. Big difference. I once had a fresh, natural ranched steak and my taste buds were never happier, but I still enjoy Wendy's when I am hungry just because I am happy to get so much food for so little.

Uhhh.... if the meat contains a large quantity of Sodium Nitrite it's been processed. That's everything from Hamburger and Steaks you buy at the Grocery Store to McDonald's Meat Slurries.

[HoreTore]

Kosher simply being thron into the mix to avoid allegations of racism

Oh come one Louis, you know the history here as well as anyone. It's not kosher that's thrown in to justify a halal-ban, it's halal that's thrown in to justify a kosher ban. The anti-kosher sentiment is as old as european jew-hate, but because of WW2 a ban on kosher alone has as much chance as a snowball in hell(fortunately).

The fact of the matter is that fur farms remains as institutional torture of animals, yet "conservative free market animal rights activists"(yeah right) whines about kosher and halal. I'll say it again, a halal slaughtered cow in Muslimistan has lived a life in paradise compared to a "humanly slaughtered" cow in the west's industrial agriculture scheme.

True animal rights activists are of course against halal and kosher slaughter as well, but they're caught in the middle in this case, as they're against just about everything concerning animals... And let's have a closer look at those activists, shall we? They have devoted their life to fight for animals, I'd say they're pretty knowledgeable about what practices are the worst. It's also quite logical that they would be most strongly opposed to the worst practices, and will resort to drastic actions against them. Off the top of my head, I can remember plenty of actions against fur shops, fur farms, whaling and industrial farms. I can't seem to remember any actions committed against a kosher/halal slaughterhouse. And don't try the "oh they're scared to be labeled racists"-defense, I'm pretty sure loony activists don't give a crap about that.


As for the 'terrible' transportation, I wonder if you have som links to come up with - it rings no bells here.

I only have 2,5 years of near-constant bitching and whining about it from my farmer ex-girlfriend, no linkys... But if you want to find some yourself, Spain would probably be the best place to start, most of her bitching was about them....

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh come one Louis, you know the history here as well as anyone. It's not kosher that's thrown in to justify a halal-ban, it's halal that's thrown in to justify a kosher ban. The anti-kosher sentiment is as old as european jew-hate, but because of WW2 a ban on kosher alone has as much chance as a snowball in hell(fortunately).Oh, come on now, HoreTore. Anti-Islamism is the current focus of the European hardright, not antisemitism. Apart from some fringe groups, it's all about Muslims Muslims Muslims nowadays. Do you not read the interweb's underbelly, such as cult war games fora? Kosher slaughter is the collateral damage here.


Although, as I tried to show in my previous post, this is really about neither halal nor kosher food. This is about finding an electoral majority to impose stricter animal rights, including humane slaughter.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Uhhh.... if the meat contains a large quantity of Sodium Nitrite it's been processed. That's everything from Hamburger and Steaks you buy at the Grocery Store to McDonald's Meat Slurries.

EDIT: Forget what I said earlier, let me be more clear.

I understand that almost all the meat you can buy contains some sort of chemical treatment or processing but that doesn't mean that people are addicted to it. The chemicals that are put in there help the meat last longer, helps it ship long distances and is what makes the meat cheap in the first place. All cheap meat will have these processing methods on them because that is how you get cheap meat.

However, you can give a natural, grass fed (idk what they eat actually) steer, T-bone steak that is 100% natural, no processing and people will enjoy much more than the processed food. The problem is that it is more expensive and people enjoy having more money in their pocket when they eat then having the superior taste. It's not an issue of being addicted to the chemicals they put in, its an issue of wanting to keep as much money as possible, which is how most people are in every financial situation/transaction.

[HoreTore]

Although, as I tried to show in my previous post, this is really about neither halal nor kosher food. This is about finding an electoral majority to impose stricter animal rights, including humane slaughter.

I don't trust the sincerity of anyone who calls themselves an animal rights activist who has time for other things than firebombing fur shops.

[Samurai Waki]

EDIT: Forget what I said earlier, let me be more clear.

I understand that almost all the meat you can buy contains some sort of chemical treatment or processing but that doesn't mean that people are addicted to it. The chemicals that are put in there help the meat last longer, helps it ship long distances and is what makes the meat cheap in the first place. All cheap meat will have these processing methods on them because that is how you get cheap meat.

However, you can give a natural, grass fed (idk what they eat actually) steer, T-bone steak that is 100% natural, no processing and people will enjoy much more than the processed food. The problem is that it is more expensive and people enjoy having more money in their pocket when they eat then having the superior taste. It's not an issue of being addicted to the chemicals they put in, its an issue of wanting to keep as much money as possible, which is how most people are in every financial situation/transaction.

And yet meat products are more expensive than they've ever been... funny that, huh? Drive all the lifelong Ranchers out of business and then jack up the prices... while processing plants of today are more reminiscent of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" than they were fifteen or twenty years ago. It seems like the consumer is really getting screwed if it's all about prices.

[Kralizec]

It's not kosher that's thrown in to justify a halal-ban, it's halal that's thrown in to justify a kosher ban.

So about this law: the arguments about animal welfare are just a pretext for implementing islamophobic policy, to serve as a smoke screen for a massive anti-semetic conspiracy?

This makes perfect sense.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And yet meat products are more expensive than they've ever been... funny that, huh? Drive all the lifelong Ranchers out of business and then jack up the prices... while processing plants of today are more reminiscent of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" than they were fifteen or twenty years ago. It seems like the consumer is really getting screwed if it's all about prices.

Yes, what you have said is all correct. How does this negate my point?

[Samurai Waki]

Was I supposed to?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Was I supposed to?

Oh I'm sorry. I was assuming from general angry tone coming from your post that you were trying to make statement about something I said.

I see you were just rolling with it now.

You know what really pisses me off about meat nowadays? All the generic "steakhouses" won't even let me get my medium rare steak the way I want it. Oh sure they have it as an option but sometimes it seems as if they carbonize the entire outside layer and then quit right before the pink is gone so they can say it is "medium rare". I don't want to eat charcoal, I want my meat browned on the outside and practically raw in the middle. I guess too many idiots sued them because they didn't want to take the responsibility.

I cry every time someone orders it well done. What was the point in killing the cow in the first place?

[Fragony]

Agreed the poor thing is already dead no need for post-mortum mutilation, rare plz