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View Full Version : Guns are too strong or not?



Kocmoc
05-17-2011, 15:38
Alright, I saw some treads flying around lately, where people pointed out that guns are too strong, have not enough FF (which is wrong) or should get changed. Id like to know how you think about guns in general.

It would be great, if you could post, why you think whatever you think. Thanks in advance.


Here is a replay,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/kocmoc/FF1.replay

which shows perfectly how "good" the Friendly Fire is. Its done with my 2 PCs, so you can be sure, thats perfect! ;)
It will clearly show you, that the FF is higher than the casualties of the enemy unit.

I also want to point out the "gun punching" vid I made, which give you some impression how guns can work.



Koc

Nowake
05-17-2011, 17:26
Hey,

From a new MP player's perspective, I must write that I do find them a bit off in terms of moral, so I went for
Yes. The Moral Shock is too much.
I get the number of kills as correct, but when they retreat behind their melee infantry and continue to give such a moral penalty, it is a bit meh. I believe the unit covering them and getting all the friendly fire should have an even higher penalty to moral to be honest.

Also, while the kill per Salvo is all right, perhaps their Reload time should be increased a bit more? They may seem slow to Reload now, but I think they were even slower in reality and certain special abilities really bring them a bit over the top (yes, I am aware the previous Inspire was even more ridiculous than Rapid Fire ever will).

AMP
05-17-2011, 18:21
Hard to say really...

Most that complain about them go about fighting them all wrong or atleast in the games that I have played anyway. Also no one is posting replays against skilled players showing how they are OP or pointing out certain points in replays showing how they are OP. They just say this or that...

It would help determine how much of a morale penalty units should receive if it showed in stats the number of the units current morale, but it doesn't constantly update. I would say however it would make sense that a unit getting shot in the back by friendly fire should suffer a higher morale penalty than a unit getting shot in the front by enemy gun fire.

If you watch the tracers they aren't going through any friendly soldiers that I can see, that any soldier hit by a bullet dies.

The thing that may seem broken is how soldiers in a unit can target an enemy soldier behind the lines when it's vision to the enemy soldier is blocked, but I don't think the AI can read that and would probably be hard to code to read such a thing I don't know. If they could fix it so a soldier can't target an enemy soldier without vision that would make a world of difference or atleast be a big step in the right direction.

Zarobien
05-17-2011, 18:58
Now I'm guilty of using 1-2 of these as a tide turner for win. Mostly by running them on the side or even to the backside of the enemy; then fire once for the moral shock. So I voted "Yes, the moral shock is too much." The kills they do seem to be inline for me.

AMP
05-17-2011, 19:24
What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

Swoosh So
05-17-2011, 20:31
My god now people are complaining units get morale shocks when shot in their backside :O

AMP
05-18-2011, 06:14
It sure keeps it entertaining having always a "next" thing to complain about. It's very interesting to see what people consider OP in this game and not fair, so keep it coming. Some I may agree with if they provide good evidence to back up what they say, but that hardly happens.

Nowake
05-18-2011, 06:16
I either did not understand your quip :sweatdrop: or you misunderstood our posts Swoosh. Every post here stated precisely that it is abnormal for your own units to not receive a moral penalty when your muskets are behind them and tearing through the enemy infantry you have engaged. So who is complaining exactly?

Indeed, we state that penalty should be higher than that of the enemy troops, after all, no one getting shot in the arse would wave it off as a "Nevermind lads, I know you mean well!"

Sp00n
05-18-2011, 09:30
Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

Kocmoc
05-18-2011, 10:16
Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

Yes, bows are also pretty powerful, Imo the bows are even more of a problem, than the guns. We need the guns to stop the rush, we dont need bows for that!

UglyJun
05-18-2011, 13:02
What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

well we had major problems with the chain rout in STW Amp :) but it was addressed and rebalanced !!! so far i must say from my limited mp experience that i don't see any unit that's OP :)

AMP
05-18-2011, 17:03
well we had major problems with the chain rout in STW Amp :) but it was addressed and rebalanced !!! so far i must say from my limited mp experience that i don't see any unit that's OP :)

no comment Jun just no comment :)

AggonyKing
05-18-2011, 17:42
Yes, bows are also pretty powerful, Imo the bows are even more of a problem, than the guns. We need the guns to stop the rush, we dont need bows for that!when you can wield 200 range monks vs 100 range guns (and at 125range they hardly kill anything) I would say worry bout bows instead :D

I love shooting the guns from far far away :)

Kocmoc
05-18-2011, 17:52
when you can wield 200 range monks vs 100 range guns (and at 125range they hardly kill anything) I would say worry bout bows instead :D

I love shooting the guns from far far away :)

Especially as your bows really kill quick!

AggonyKing
05-18-2011, 18:02
Especially as your bows really kill quick!ya i'm pretty sure if we do test of reload and shooting speed bows will come out on top (as they should)

even though guns have the most shock when fired, bows have a way faster kill rate. As soon as guns close in if you focus your bows on those guns its game over for the guns.

HighFistRW
05-19-2011, 00:01
Hi All,
its been awhile since i have posted anywhere :) but i have returned to playing S2 after several years break and i dont see a problem with guns atm, i dont look at stats to much and would call myself a moderate player who plays for fun or running away mostly lol..... i have found that if you can take out the guns early with bows then it usually levels out as most peeps i come acroos filed 3 bows 2-3 guns rest cav & inf. i do miss the old fashioned chain routes of the stw days and often think good god how is that unit that is surrounded not running away but have learnt that vets etc have more stay puff and am coming to terms with new dynamics... at present i think that some players who like me on my return are a little taken aback that the dynamics have changed.. hope that makes sense all.

oh and hello again to all that remeber me

UglyJun
05-19-2011, 02:01
welcome back UglyFist nice u made it back :)

Cu'Roi
05-19-2011, 07:11
not really sure that it matters. there will always be things that work better than others in TW. adaptable players will simply switch to what works best. i think it is good when more units have worthwhile uses, and i think the patch improved that. wherever things are at i want them to stay there, it gets confusing to learn so many different styles.

Paolai
05-19-2011, 09:23
In STW musks were a lot stronger and they were the most important units for the shoot out. The way players used them was different because gun's mechanism was different (a lot better imho).

UglyJun
05-19-2011, 13:04
hey Paolai been a while :)
i remember massive army's with mainly guns and a few units to hold the flanks, because anything that charged at u frontal was toast :_)

Kocmoc
05-20-2011, 10:00
I started this tread, to get some general feedback. We can see tons of treads at the com, but mostly its from pretty new player. So this help me a lot to actual understand how "we" feel about it. Thanks for that!

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
05-20-2011, 14:36
I think the game is better then what is was before, granted though I don't waste my time looking over "if this unit has this extact stat...." so I don't know if there are real major stat issues.

sabresandiego
05-20-2011, 19:17
Guns are too strong IMO. They could use some tuning. I think the problem lies mainly in their cost effectiveness. For Under 700 koku you can get a unit which can wipe out half an army, heros, generals, and more.

chrisj
05-23-2011, 09:36
But you can kill this unit with a light cav (granted a good player won't let you), its price is fair considering a single mistake and you've spent 700 credits on nothing.

Zarobien
05-23-2011, 11:38
What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

Kantana Samurai atleast has the "resistant to morale shocks" trait. But I have charged them from front with yari samurai too and got trought (alltought eaten one volley). So I would say the shock is just a short time and it cant be more than -5. I would say even less than that but more than -2. I think my light cav ate 3 volleys; one direct and two sideways trought opponent archers. It was the 3rd that got it routing but the 2 other light cavs stayed there for for one more volley. I think they have base morale of 8. So one volley shock would be -3? (Hard to say because theres lots of stuff going on there.)

Orda Khan
05-29-2011, 11:27
Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.
Hello Sp00n,
I have to agree mate. I've looked at the replays and it seems a good supply of muskets and bows will practically wipe out advancing units before they make contact, or if they do (highly depleted) they waver/route in an instant.
Whatever the problem: range, accuracy, lethality, reload, morale shock, (probably all) range units are proving to be too important.

Cu'Roi
05-30-2011, 02:47
i think it's clear that guns are definitely not underpowered. they are also a unit u must take every game, other types are not so necessary in so many situations as guns are. but if they are overpowered? it's really hard to say. rushing is possible in this game but conditions must be right. in fact 2 different types of rush can work in this game. to me this is good. if you did reduce some of the stats for matchlocks, it would be best to do it only very slightly, otherwise rushers will have too easy of a time, imo.

i have talked about this before, and it's sort of off topic so i wont go into detail here, but in the absence of gametypes, it's hard to balance the game. this game doesn't need 20 different game types like the fantasy game Myth had, but 2-3 game types other than just last man alive would benefit the game, and open up more roles for more units if done tastefully and properly tested.

Tempiic
05-30-2011, 08:17
Ever since the first TW, balance always suffered from the upgrade system. Now we're playing with vets, in which we have more control about how and what we upgrade. I cannot say I am surprised. It does not matter either when we get our guns or bows balanced again, then something else will became OP thanks to veterancy&upgrades. Honestly, it is not really unvetted guns&bows that cause this issue.

Paolai
05-30-2011, 09:10
Hello Sp00n,
I have to agree mate. I've looked at the replays and it seems a good supply of muskets and bows will practically wipe out advancing units before they make contact, or if they do (highly depleted) they waver/route in an instant.


Do not advance too early then. Work with your shooters, do the job on the side you think it is better to attack. Surely you have to have strong shooters aswell.
An army with 4/5 strong and upgraded shooters can beat an army of 8/9 "weak" shooters maybe also more. And then the H2H it is quite easy.

Sp00n
05-30-2011, 12:16
Do not advance too early then. Work with your shooters, do the job on the side you think it is better to attack. Surely you have to have strong shooters aswell.
An army with 4/5 strong and upgraded shooters can beat an army of 8/9 "weak" shooters maybe also more. And then the H2H it is quite easy.

My army isnt the issue, I have plenty of upgraded Bow Monks and all types of Guns, I'm just saying they are all overpowered, its a melee era being dominated by missiles.

Paolai
05-30-2011, 13:02
Imho till you cannot win with just shooters if your opponent plays well and with a balance army, it means that shooters are not unbalanced. If you go to fild an army with just Ashi archers, yes, it very difficult to win vs a lot of guns. If you have 3/4 strong archers and 1 good gun (rest all inf and cavs) you will have imho no problems at all.
Also in STW1/MI musks were deadly especially if well fielded. They were different agreed, but deadly aswell. Imho the game is just new and sometimes all of us go in panic. If you have to approach an opponent with a lot of musks take your time and hit/push with your strong archers where you want to attack. Assuming that you have strong archers fielded.

Papewaio
06-06-2011, 11:51
Well at least something causes morale to be triggered. I think the problem is not the guns, its the too high general morale, making only guns have an obvious effect (not so obvious is the how quickly units collapse once surrounded or non spears charged down by cav). It does feel harsh charging a unit to turn tail half way there. Why do my sprites have to be so sensible, it's only like half their unit thats dead...

Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
06-07-2011, 13:21
Yep,an army with 2 Matchlock can quite easily beat any army.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-07-2011, 14:44
It seems now that, no matter if I do something stupid like banzai rush a matchlock army, or if I try turning their flanks or whatever, it seems their matchlocks kill the unit ASAP.

Orda Khan
06-07-2011, 21:52
From what I saw in the Tosa cup replays, range units in general are far too effective.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
06-08-2011, 01:06
I hate them, I can't win with them or against them.

AMP
06-11-2011, 14:14
If bows and guns functioned like they did in STW days there wouldn't be a problem. You could win vs guns in STW no problem without using any yourself...

Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
06-13-2011, 13:09
I found a soultion to defeat Matchlock guns.

I was playing a 2 vs battle yesterday and My bow Samurai fried flaming arrows on the matchlock.The Matchlock were damaged.They were then waverng anretreatin

Tempiic
06-14-2011, 09:14
I think it is more an issue of upgrades rather than the missile units themselves. Or rather it seems that certain missile upgrades are more effective than melee upgrades. Can notice the difference easily when using plain missile units instead of upgraded ones, or when playing classic. (They still pack of a punch of course but its more spread out over time)

East East Wild
06-15-2011, 09:22
Matchlocks are not overpowered...except if u make a lvl 9 Monk version with 150 range, high loading skills, rapid fire and using stand and fight plus inspire.

You will then get a tommy gun!!! Other than that, you can (not easily but can) counter them with archers, cav charge covered with targets baits(ahsigaru)
or do not over commit(bad habbit of mine) your infantry into the main clash and go around the line or gaps to finsh them off.

Yesugey
06-19-2011, 23:26
You will then get a tommy gun!!!

Hehe, tommy gun, you couldnt put it better mate. Accuracy upgrades boosts Matchlocks, Bombards and Firebombs significantly, and that cracks the balance.

I exprienced 3 really annoying battles against guns today. I usually make banzai charge against matchlocks, and even I lose some units, it doesnt matter because I swarm the enemy with infantry. And I usually win, except only if they retreat and keep shooting. (that devastates the morale)

Anyway, on 3 battles today against lvl10 people, but their matchlocks sniped my general on first blow, and my army shattered instantly. It really annoyed me, its like "if you have lvl9 matchlock, you already won." you know...

Other than that, I deal with matchlocks with no problem, I even like to see them because they are good only for the first blow, and even they retreat and shoot, they usually shoot their own troops.

GfmHellmann
06-22-2011, 08:45
I don`t think that the matchlock unit in itself is too strong, the amount of kills including FF is ok. The only thing they need to do is a moral shock for friendly troops, too...and even a bigger one than for the enemies. The enemy sees the guns and expects to be shot at...friendly troops don`t do that and for being shot from friendly troops into their backs the moral penalty has to be even bigger.
If that tweak would be implemented matchlocks are no fire and forget unit anymore...you would have to expose them, thus having to protect them and the most matchlock abusers won`t pull that off because they lack the skill imo.
I would like to see that in the next patch, tbh i think they _must_ do something like that.