View Full Version : Church members turn against man acting as a christian - no one notices irony.
A man in Florida payed 10$ to put the name of Osama Bin Laden on the roster of people to be prayed for at the next service of his church.
the reaction was equally predictable, funny and ironic:
A devout Florida Catholic sparked some hellfire among members of his church after he asked them to pray for the soul of Osama Bin Laden.
"He needs forgiveness and compassion from God," Borga told WPTV television.
Borga said he got the idea to pray for Bin Laden's soul after he saw television footage of people celebrating the announcement of Bin Laden's death on May 1.
The devout Catholic said he also wanted people to pray for the families of 9/11 victims, but some parishioners didn't care.
"I think it's totally wrong, [Bin Laden] doesn't belong in the Catholic religion. For what he did to Americans, he doesn't belong anywhere," church member Luis Pizzano told the station. "It's unconscionable, it's sacrilegious."
"Let's pray for our soldiers that are over there, not for somebody that caused our soldiers to go over there," Pizzano added.
But some churchgoers said they'd back Borga.
Father Gavin Badway said the church had a policy of honoring all prayer requests.
"Some people, from their emotions, don't want us to pray for him. I can understand that, but we cannot do that," Badway said. "We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us."
http://www.christianpost.com/news/prayer-request-for-osama-bin-laden-ruffles-feathers-in-florida-church-50306/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/05/18/2011-05-18_man_angers_church_by_asking_them_to_pray_for_soul_of_osama_bin_laden_he_needs_fo.html
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/122152834.html
another example of the ample cases of cognitive-dissonance we find amongst some so-called religious people nowadays.
how about reading that book you use as a crutch fellas?
Kralizec
05-19-2011, 12:44
As an atheist, I can't help feeling amused about this.
HoreTore
05-19-2011, 12:59
Both the upside and the downside of christianity in one nifty example, kudos!
Rhyfelwyr
05-19-2011, 14:40
Well from a Catholic perspective of 'praying for the dead' obviously the man was right they should pray for OBL.
I don't think its too hypocritical though... obviously technically it is but it is an emotional issue for a lot of people, you could give them a break over it.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
05-19-2011, 17:03
While I do take being a Presteryian sersiouly (to a point), I try not to take it to sersiouly to avoid reliligous crap like this. :juggle2:
I myself won't pray for OBL. Sorry, murderers don't get prayers from me.
Centurion1
05-19-2011, 17:38
I don't see the irony here besides yet another religion bashing thread propagated by the atheists of this board. So some man expressed anger about the entire episode. Who supported the guy who sent in the prayer card? THE PRIEST. Last time I checked he was the shepherd of the flock not Luis or whatever that guys name was.
The only thing ironic I see about this is the percieved irony. Is there something that says catholics are suppossed to be perfect, just like atheists are supposed to be 100% rational so they say, jokes on you
I don't see the irony here besides yet another religion bashing thread propagated by the atheists of this board. So some man expressed anger about the entire episode.
read the news items...it wasn´t just one man....just one man was quoted...different.
and if you don´t see the irony in people that call them selfs Christian don´t observing the tenets of the Christian religion and actually attacking the position of another man that is doing so......then seek medical help....the irony center in your brain is damaged or something.
this isn´t about religion being good or bad....it's just about expecting people that claim they are religious to act like it.
and 'bashing' ? please....if you think the mere recounting of facts is bashing....well....there's nothing much I can say but for the fact that your statement denotes an unattainably weak logical position.
to quote Stephen Colbert: 'Reality has a well known liberal bias'.
Who supported the guy who sent in the prayer card? THE PRIEST. Last time I checked he was the shepherd of the flock not Luis or whatever that guys name was.
Actually if you read the news items you would see that other parishioners defended his position as well....
The only thing ironic I see about this is the percieved irony. Is there something that says catholics are suppossed to be perfect, just like atheists are supposed to be 100% rational so they say, jokes on you
they are supposed to follow the example of Jesus Christ....as to if that would make them perfect or not...that's another discussion.
they are supposed to follow the example of Jesus Christ....as to if that would make them perfect or not...that's another discussion.
Why, isn't it part of the christian faith that they are all sinners. This one has anger, no ambiguities here
Skullheadhq
05-19-2011, 18:39
Praying for the dead is unbiblical anyway. Give me one example of someone in the canonical bible praying for the dead.
Well, I'm not surprised.
Jesus said "love your enemies as you love yourself" or something to that effect, but how many (especially american, conservative) Christians behave like they took these words to their heart?
Just go to youtube and look for some of the NWO scaremongers, they thump on a bible with a wall full of assault rifles on the wall in the background and you wonder whether they even read the book they claim to base their faith on.
Louis VI the Fat
05-19-2011, 19:02
I see neither irony nor hypocrisy, just a difficult dillemma fraught with intense emotion.
Christianity, like other moral sytems, faces many difficult (seemingly) inner contradictions. A choice between good and evil is no choice, but a mere 'filling in the blanks'. Real choices are between the perfect and the good, between the practical or realistic and the ideal. On top of that, nobody is perfect, which is why the Catholicism has an understanding, forgiving God.
See, this is why Rome is right and Protestants are wrong!!1!
Only the Protestants and evil atheists will speak of hypocrisy when the issue is 'moral dilemma faced by imperfect man, guided by a God whose guidance is limited to what by necessity sounds ambiguous to imperfect, struggling man.
The Protestant knows he has to be right about every moral issue every single time, at pain of discovering he wasn't chosen after all. Catholics understand man can not be perfect (What near blasphemy to think man should be perfect, like a god!) The Catholic accepts man struggles with conflicting emotions, with guidelines which sound contradictory to his mere mortal soul. 'Forgive your enemy', it is not that easy.
HoreTore
05-19-2011, 20:41
I don't see the irony here besides yet another religion bashing thread propagated by the atheists of this board. So some man expressed anger about the entire episode. Who supported the guy who sent in the prayer card? THE PRIEST. Last time I checked he was the shepherd of the flock not Luis or whatever that guys name was.
Right.
Starting now, I'm going to have a whine-fest every time someone starts "socialist/leftist-bashing".
Samurai Waki
05-19-2011, 20:51
True Forgiveness takes a lot of grit, the majority of people on this earth aren't interested in forgiveness when distrust and anger are more easily accessible. It's possible to forgive men like OBL, while still understanding that his destruction was necessary.
Strike For The South
05-19-2011, 20:51
While I do take being a Presteryian sersiouly (to a point), I try not to take it to sersiouly to avoid reliligous crap like this. :juggle2:
I myself won't pray for OBL. Sorry, murderers don't get prayers from me.
Then you miss the entire point of your religion
Rhyfelwyr
05-19-2011, 23:08
See, this is why Rome is right and Protestants are wrong!!1!
Only the Protestants and evil atheists will speak of hypocrisy when the issue is 'moral dilemma faced by imperfect man, guided by a God whose guidance is limited to what by necessity sounds ambiguous to imperfect, struggling man.
Ahem, as the resident rabid Protestant I should point out...
I don't think its too hypocritical though... obviously technically it is but it is an emotional issue for a lot of people, you could give them a break over it.
Anyway...
While I do take being a Presteryian sersiouly (to a point), I try not to take it to sersiouly to avoid reliligous crap like this. :juggle2:
I myself won't pray for OBL. Sorry, murderers don't get prayers from me.
See Matthew 5:21-22!
HoreTore
05-19-2011, 23:10
Ahem, as the resident rabid Protestant I should point out...
You're also our resident rabid communist, so that means you're atheist ~;)
Rhyfelwyr
05-19-2011, 23:15
You're also our resident rabid communist, so that means you're atheist ~;)
Wat
HoreTore
05-19-2011, 23:20
Wat
Wat what? Haven't you heard? All commies are atheist and bound for hell....
Rhyfelwyr
05-19-2011, 23:24
Wat what? Haven't you heard? All commies are atheist and bound for hell....
I meant where did you get the idea I am a communist?!
Samurai Waki
05-19-2011, 23:25
I just find it funny that a Catholic Congregation that has had absolutely zero contact with Al Qaeda or OBL cannot forgive him, while the Priest of my Congregation who had basically everything he held dear taken away from him by the Nazis still found it in his heart to find understanding and forgiveness... It's like Catholics are people or something...
HoreTore
05-19-2011, 23:54
I meant where did you get the idea I am a communist?!
Oh come on Lenin, you honestly believe we haven't figured you out yet....?
While I do take being a Presteryian sersiouly (to a point), I try not to take it to sersiouly to avoid reliligous crap like this. :juggle2:
Do you happen to mean presbyterian by any chance? It's not really all too hard.
In any case, in terms of religious understanding, I think that a Christian refusing to pray for Osama bin Laden because he's a Muslim terrorist/extremist/murderer is on equal footing as a Muslim that tries to blow people up, i.e., I don't think they understand the basic tenets of their own religion (albeit on very different levels).
EDIT: Warmancake: What do you mean "to a point". Is that the same as the Muslim that only keeps to two of the five pillars of or a Buddhist that adheres only to three of the 5 precepts? I mean, either you're religious or you're not. Where do you draw the line? When is it serious?
Kralizec
05-20-2011, 00:06
Quick question about catholicism:
what's the purpose behind praying for the dead? I always had this idea that it meant putting in a good word, or asking God to be easy on those who passed away but didn't quite make it to paradise on their own. Is this accurate?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-20-2011, 00:12
Quick question about catholicism:
what's the purpose behind praying for the dead? I always had this idea that it meant putting in a good word, or asking God to be easy on those who passed away but didn't quite make it to paradise on their own. Is this accurate?
No, not at all.
Intercessory prayers speed the soul's way through purgatory, they are seen as a sort of post mortem form of piety. By asking people to pray for you you are effectively promoting good works after your death and this helps to balance your Sin.
Think of it like extra credit at school.
It can't ever get you out of Hell though.
Kralizec
05-20-2011, 00:20
That's pretty much what I thought, I didn't phrase it that well I suppose.
Thing is, the idea always struck me as bizarre. Suppose two men die, both who are mostly decent guys but both had committed sins that they didn't confess or otherwise atone for. One has lots of family members and friends, the other one few or none. The first one will obviously have more people praying for him after he dies, does this means he'll get out of purgatory sooner on account of being more popular and having a larger family?
Samurai Waki
05-20-2011, 00:38
No. Depends entirely on the severity of his sins, you can have as many people vouch for you as you want, but ultimately it comes down to god as being the final judge of character.
you just need to contact the correct lobbyist...err...I mean saint...to help you out.
which is why the Catholicism has an understanding, forgiving God.
I was with you all the way. Until this.... the Catholic god is anything but understanding/forgiving. He's a vengeful monster intent on judging every living being with all the rationality of an unhappy toddler.
Centurion1
05-20-2011, 05:23
Do you happen to mean presbyterian by any chance? It's not really all too hard.
In any case, in terms of religious understanding, I think that a Christian refusing to pray for Osama bin Laden because he's a Muslim terrorist/extremist/murderer is on equal footing as a Muslim that tries to blow people up, i.e., I don't think they understand the basic tenets of their own religion (albeit on very different levels).
EDIT: Warmancake: What do you mean "to a point". Is that the same as the Muslim that only keeps to two of the five pillars of or a Buddhist that adheres only to three of the 5 precepts? I mean, either you're religious or you're not. Where do you draw the line? When is it serious?
Bit of a leap to make a political point. And not very tasteful at all.
read the news items...it wasn´t just one man....just one man was quoted...different.
and if you don´t see the irony in people that call them selfs Christian don´t observing the tenets of the Christian religion and actually attacking the position of another man that is doing so......then seek medical help....the irony center in your brain is damaged or something.
this isn´t about religion being good or bad....it's just about expecting people that claim they are religious to act like it.
and 'bashing' ? please....if you think the mere recounting of facts is bashing....well....there's nothing much I can say but for the fact that your statement denotes an unattainably weak logical position.
to quote Stephen Colbert: 'Reality has a well known liberal bias'.
Okay so I should make a thread everytime a muslim blows himself up because they aren't following their tenets religion. Or make a thread every single time an atheist doesn't do something "rational". Just because i'm "religious as you like to call it does not mean I am a great perfect man let alone Christian. Does that mean I am a bad person no nor does it make me a bad Christian.
Bit of a leap to make a political point. And not very tasteful at all.
Not really. Both are not following 100% the rules of their religions, the five tenets don't tell Muslims to kill people and Jesus taught to be forgiving and love your enemy. So he's making a valid point. How is it distasteful?
Strike For The South
05-20-2011, 06:12
The point is, in America being a Christian for a majority of people has been wrapped in some psuedo social symbol
Just man up and say God really isn't important to you instead of making the church into some mutant social club
The point is, in America being a Christian for a majority of people has been wrapped in some psuedo social symbol
And of course, it wasn't really that important either up until the fifties, when dem commies became a problem. One of the best ways to shield yourself from being accused of communism (thanks, Joe McCarthy) was to persistently repeat how Christian you are (God bless this, God bless that, God bless the USA, etc).
Not really. Both are not following 100% the rules of their religions, the five tenets don't tell Muslims to kill people and Jesus taught to be forgiving and love your enemy. So he's making a valid point. How is it distasteful?
What I think he's getting at, is that comparing the non-obligatory inherently pacifist act of praying with the supposedly obligatory violent act of flying stuff into buildings is distasteful. I understand.
Still, the basic point remains. In my very much finite understanding of Christianity (which included four years of singing in a Catholic choir as well as reading the Bible once or twice), I was under the impression that Christians are supposed to love their enemies.
And in my very much finite understanding of Islam (which includes reading several academic works concerning the history of political Islam, as well as a biography of Muhammad, and the Qur'an and several books by contemporary Muslim philosophers), a Muslim is supposed to respect all human beings, "for killing one man is like killing all mankind", and "if they are not your brother in religion, they are your equals in creation".
Strike For The South
05-20-2011, 09:46
And of course, it wasn't really that important either up until the fifties, when dem commies became a problem. One of the best ways to shield yourself from being accused of communism (thanks, Joe McCarthy) was to persistently repeat how Christian you are (God bless this, God bless that, God bless the USA, etc).
".
Certainly that has something to do with it, but on the ground level I think you will more of these movements are fueled by an evangelical revival that took place in the 70s.
In order to grab a younger audience the church watered down its message, put on aucostic guitar, and gave Jesus a 20th century makeover. So we now have a christianity in America that has almost a cliquish combonation to it. Church is "cool". Kids hang out with there youth groups, which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't all drinking and screwing (LOLZ). Now some of these people do try to adhere to some tenants but they usually end up going way to far off the deep end in other ways. Every one I know who didn't drink is pregnant, every one I know who abstained now uses booze to drown feelings they have that they were told are inherently bad.
Then of course they can't renconcile these things within the church because the message is so wrapped from years of "massaging" to maximize followers that their really isn't an actual message anymore it's just fluff.
This of course ties right in with Americas insecurties and immaturity. Granted I would take us over the intolerable smugness that comes with being a European any day of the week but I would prefer a happy medium
People were so worried about halloween and premarital sex that they threw away the actual message of Jesus in order to keep people within the church and it has backfired terribly.
This topic deserves a thread of its own frankly. Unfortunatley its kind of niche topic
Hosakawa Tito
05-20-2011, 10:41
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/scumoftheearth.jpg
Scum of the Earth Church (http://www.westword.com/2010-12-23/news/christian-punks-jesus-christmas/).
Okay so I should make a thread everytime a muslim blows himself up because they aren't following their tenets religion. Or make a thread every single time an atheist doesn't do something "rational".
if it is a funny situation I say go ahead.
Certainly that has something to do with it, but on the ground level I think you will more of these movements are fueled by an evangelical revival that took place in the 70s.
In order to grab a younger audience the church watered down its message, put on aucostic guitar, and gave Jesus a 20th century makeover. So we now have a christianity in America that has almost a cliquish combonation to it. Church is "cool". Kids hang out with there youth groups, which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't all drinking and screwing (LOLZ). Now some of these people do try to adhere to some tenants but they usually end up going way to far off the deep end in other ways. Every one I know who didn't drink is pregnant, every one I know who abstained now uses booze to drown feelings they have that they were told are inherently bad.
Then of course they can't renconcile these things within the church because the message is so wrapped from years of "massaging" to maximize followers that their really isn't an actual message anymore it's just fluff.
This of course ties right in with Americas insecurties and immaturity. Granted I would take us over the intolerable smugness that comes with being a European any day of the week but I would prefer a happy medium
People were so worried about halloween and premarital sex that they threw away the actual message of Jesus in order to keep people within the church and it has backfired terribly.
This topic deserves a thread of its own frankly. Unfortunatley its kind of niche topic
I would say that the issue in American might be been amplified by the anti-communist wave and the evangelicals...but this isn´t in no way a purely American issue.......even over here I personally don´t know anyone under the age of 30 that is seriously religious....even if they claim they are and use it as an excuse when certain matters come up for public discussion....the gays, prostitution..etc.
much more concise and much funnier than I can put it....foul language included...so here by dragons...proceed at your own risk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5DaTIF1a0
Seamus Fermanagh
05-20-2011, 12:01
I was with you all the way. Until this.... the Catholic god is anything but understanding/forgiving. He's a vengeful monster intent on judging every living being with all the rationality of an unhappy toddler.
This does not jibe with what the nuns taught me in religion, nor with my experience of Catholicism.
Tellos Athenaios
05-20-2011, 13:00
Well, that ties in nicely with the clip posted by Ronin, doesn't it?
Ronin, that video clip is excellent!
Ronin, that video clip is excellent!
Doug Stanhope is perhaps the best standup comic active today.
In order to grab a younger audience the church watered down its message, put on aucostic guitar, and gave Jesus a 20th century makeover. So we now have a christianity in America that has almost a cliquish combonation to it. Church is "cool". Kids hang out with there youth groups, which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't all drinking and screwing (LOLZ).
Sounds like Shambhala Buddhism. Ugh.
Ironside
05-20-2011, 17:36
This does not jibe with what the nuns taught me in religion, nor with my experience of Catholicism.
Old Testament. I haven't red enough of the New one to know if there's any nasty details there as well, but God really acts evil and jerkish in the Old one.
For example, when Moses wants the Israelis to leave Egypt on request by God, pharao refuses and his people gets punished by God as a result. Why does pharao refuse? Because God is clouding his judgement. God does this to showoff his powers.
Noah condemns his grandson to lifetime serfdom because Noah's son saw Noah naked, while Noah was drunk. And Noah praises his oldest son to God for covering Noah up.
gaelic cowboy
05-20-2011, 17:55
Thats nothing what about this from Exodus
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."
oops now it's basically remembered as long as people have access to the bible bit of a dumb thing eh
Tellos Athenaios
05-20-2011, 18:03
Or Maccabees. If you are wondering where exactly the mentality to fly planes into buildings comes from, well there you have it.
@Hax , having read the Qu'ran means nothing if you don't know how, like arabic you should read it backwards. It's chronologic as a message from gawd, so the most recent 'entry' cancels the former when it conflicts. Not every Islamic scholar sees it like that of course, but if you read up you know that there's a difference between to Mohammed of Mekka and the Mohammed of Medina. Where what cancels what is a whole lot of trouble.
Fragony, why do you profess to know more about how the Qur'an should be read than say an Arabist or an Imam or someone who has a background in Qur'anic exegesis?
This is not about how the verses of the Qur'an differ from time to time and how that correlates with the political changes in 7th century Arabia and the profession of Muhammad. This is about the very fundamentals of Islam that the members of al-Qaeda who are known especially well for their love of booze and women, claim to adhere to. The fundamentals of Islam are the Qur'an, and the ahadith. What makes a Muslim? Adhering to the Five Pillars of Islam is what makes someone a Muslim. Hell, some could probably bring it back to two things; having said the shahada and praying five times a day.
Where what cancels what is a whole lot of trouble.
Do you know what a mujtahid is? In any case, general interpretation of the Qur'an is way more lenient than you appear to be willing to accept. Interesting words; ijtihad, istislah, istihsan, urf,
Ijtihad meaning "interpretation", what message does a Muslim derive from a certain verse. Istislah meaning "deeming proper", what is correct and what is not correct? How do Qur'anic verses apply to modern-day life? Istihsan meaning "discretion", preference of some laws over another (essentially only applied to Shar'iah). Urf meaning "custom of society", the harmony of Islamic life in a non-Islamic society. Is this possible? Yes, to what extent? Does it conflict with the life of a Muslim? Then, let's look at another word;
Istihlal, "legalisation". What is istihlal? Generally used in the context of making something permissible. This is not positive in nature. Istihlal is the consensual distortion of Islamic jurisprudence to fit your own goals. Wait, where have we seen that again? Who have been accused of istihlal several times? Wait, yeah, I know, something about this guy who's floating somewhere in the ocean.
It is not "liberal" or "moderate" Muslims that perform istihlal, it's the "extremists" or "fundamentalists". Maybe we should call them "quicksandelists" instead.
Ease mia muca, it's why ambiguities in a holy text can exist, I didn't made that up, Never noticed any inconsistancies here and there, not out for bashing even if I dispise the islam, it's simply an explanation of how and why some things are what they are
Louis VI the Fat
05-21-2011, 01:17
Meh, for both Christianity and Islam goes that these religions are what they are, not what individual quotes lifted out of an ancient text might make it out to be.
Mediaeval Norwegian Catholics, twentieth century Coptic Egyptians, Jews, sixth century North African Germanic Arians, 21st century Brazilian televangelicals - they all share the same Old Testament texts, but they have very different religions. To understand a religion, one ought not to do what the followers insist you should do - read their holy texts. The more fruitful way to gain insight is to simply study the religion from an outside perspective, despite any protests that you can not understand 'religion X' unless you know all of the following six concepts Y and the exact 14th century theological dispute Z.
One does not need to read the Koran to argue that Islam is a backward violent ideology, no more than one needs to know the exact comentary of Lenin on chapter 3 of Das Kapital to argue that communism is a dead end.
I was with you all the way. Until this.... the Catholic god is anything but understanding/forgiving. He's a vengeful monster intent on judging every living being with all the rationality of an unhappy toddler.'Catholicism has an understanding, forgiving God....as compared to the inflexible, stern God of Protestantism'.
Louis VI the Fat
05-21-2011, 01:22
Certainly that has something to do with it, but on the ground level I think you will more of these movements are fueled by an evangelical revival that took place in the 70s.
In order to grab a younger audience the church watered down its message, put on aucostic guitar, and gave Jesus a 20th century makeover. So we now have a christianity in America that has almost a cliquish combonation to it. Church is "cool". Kids hang out with there youth groups, which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't all drinking and screwing (LOLZ). Now some of these people do try to adhere to some tenants but they usually end up going way to far off the deep end in other ways. Every one I know who didn't drink is pregnant, every one I know who abstained now uses booze to drown feelings they have that they were told are inherently bad.
Then of course they can't renconcile these things within the church because the message is so wrapped from years of "massaging" to maximize followers that their really isn't an actual message anymore it's just fluff.
This of course ties right in with Americas insecurties and immaturity. Granted I would take us over the intolerable smugness that comes with being a European any day of the week but I would prefer a happy medium
People were so worried about halloween and premarital sex that they threw away the actual message of Jesus in order to keep people within the church and it has backfired terribly.
This topic deserves a thread of its own frankly. Unfortunatley its kind of niche topicAmerica's religiousness is not the result of the Evangelical revival of the seventies. Nor a result of the McCarthyism of the fifties which allegedly spooked Americans into (outward) religiousness.
America has always been religious to the core. Tocqueville already devoted many a word on it. In particular, he noted the strong separation between church and state (much stronger in his day than today, sadly), while noting that religion is still the very basis of American political life.
Speaking of which...
The Americans being religious fundamentalist immigrants incapable of integrating into French society, for centuries now Paris has had to stand by and watch helplessly as its American immigrants build massive prayer houses everywhere. Hotbeds of American agitation, where they all wed with the plan to make babies with which to overwhelm the indigenous Frenchy, and from where they plot the overthrow of their French host society. :no:
https://img803.imageshack.us/img803/9708/cathdraleamricainedepar.jpg
'One does not need to read the Koran to argue that Islam is a backward violent ideology, no more than one needs to know the exact comentary of Lenin on chapter 3 of Das Kapital to argue that communism is a dead end.'
Helps if you are talking about the same thing, so I fully aplaud it if people dig a little, as most people are good by nature illiteracy in the muslim world isn't such a bad thing
edit, not suggesting that you claim it to be a violent and backward ideology that's all on me
second disclaimer @Hax, I am not too ignorant to not understand that what I call islam is really arab nationalism
Askthepizzaguy
05-22-2011, 05:30
I admire someone who actually gets the message which is being preached by the Christian faith.
I'm not a religious person at all, but I do appreciate the message and the sentiment, even if I don't adhere to it. What the man asked for was very compassionate and very brave.
Granted, OBL is about the last person I'd pray for as a Christian, but, that's my humanity. It isn't perfect.
a completely inoffensive name
05-24-2011, 08:00
America's religiousness is not the result of the Evangelical revival of the seventies. Nor a result of the McCarthyism of the fifties which allegedly spooked Americans into (outward) religiousness.
America has always been religious to the core. Tocqueville already devoted many a word on it. In particular, he noted the strong separation between church and state (much stronger in his day than today, sadly), while noting that religion is still the very basis of American political life.
America's level of religiousness is a sine curve that goes up and down across the generations. It spikes up after a few decades of "losing our way" then settles back down as America sees the new wave of religious charlatans for what they are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart).
How many times has this happened? Like 4 times already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Revival
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Great_Awakening
There is always an undercurrent of religion within America that rises and falls, but the overall "religiousness" of Americans is not inherent within us.
Strike For The South
05-24-2011, 08:10
America loves to think of itself as a very religous country but we're really not.
We just can't make the break into secular humanism, so instead we hedge our bets on some wrapped version of chrsitendom
Not to mention the church doubiling as a social club
Does this happen everywhere or does Texas just have a special kind of crayz
The Stranger
05-24-2011, 11:19
degenerated. closed.
Rhyfelwyr
05-24-2011, 14:03
tbh I don't think there are great historical trends behind the US Evangelical revival that has been going on since the 70's/80's.
It's a reaction against social changes. Look at the issues the Christian Right is obsessed with - abortion, gayness, divorce etc. That's why you have groups like Focus on the Family etc. Because its all a reaction against these things which are seen as a threat to the nuclear family.
It is also no surprise then that the groups most affected by these changes (the poorer and less well educated, dare I say "white trash" of the south) also form the backbone of the Christian Right.
It's also why atheists can feel smug and say, "ha, well Christians have higher divorce rates, teenage pregnancies etc". Because it is these problems that led to certain groups turning to Evangelical Christianity in the first place. It didn't cause these developments.
gaelic cowboy
05-24-2011, 15:06
America loves to think of itself as a very religous country but we're really not.
We just can't make the break into secular humanism, so instead we hedge our bets on some wrapped version of chrsitendom
Not to mention the church doubiling as a social club
Does this happen everywhere or does Texas just have a special kind of crayz
No just America even at the height of catholic political influence they never were the hub of social life in Ireland.
Rhyfelwyr
05-24-2011, 15:10
No just America even at the height of catholic political influence they never were the hub of social life in Ireland.
idk churches here often feel like a social club.
gaelic cowboy
05-24-2011, 15:40
idk churches here often feel like a social club.
And yet if it closed would the community lose a great outlet in my opinion the answer is "NO" people may use it for social purposes but it is not even near the level of America
The Stranger
05-24-2011, 15:49
thats because most northern and western european countries are protestant...
gaelic cowboy
05-24-2011, 16:05
thats because most northern and western european countries are protestant...
Eh what???
Rhyfelwyr
05-24-2011, 16:18
And yet if it closed would the community lose a great outlet in my opinion the answer is "NO" people may use it for social purposes but it is not even near the level of America
Depends where abouts you are talking about. Up in the north of the country, the answer to that is a definite YES.
gaelic cowboy
05-24-2011, 16:22
Depends where abouts you are talking about. Up in the north of the country, the answer to that is a definite YES.
doesnt in my view count as Strike is talking about a place that does not need to use a church Texas is big but it's not unserviced by modernity. Small communities in the highlands who use the church are really forced to do it cos tis the only big stout building around historically and not cos there obsessed with the bible.
I see no correlation in fact I see the opposite as in the small communities have to bend there rules in order to have a vibrant community.
Rhyfelwyr
05-24-2011, 16:27
Oh, they are obsessed with the Bible up there.
Anyway, my point was that they are social clubs, not the only social clubs. I'm sure social life would continue in the American South if the churches shut down, what did they do before the revivival from the 80's? It's a pretty modern phenomenon after all.
HoreTore
05-24-2011, 16:51
Married their cousins?
Anyway, my point was that they are social clubs, not the only social clubs. I'm sure social life would continue in the American South if the churches shut down, what did they do before the revivival from the 80's? It's a pretty modern phenomenon after all.
Football.
The Stranger
05-24-2011, 17:19
Eh what???
protestants dont like big groups. they are a bit shy.
Strike For The South
05-31-2011, 10:03
The church has always been the focal point for the south
ALWAYS
American catholicsm is really the place you want to go to truly see how the church has changed. Southern protastents are so branded with the church it is like breathing. As such people from the south will never leave the church in name, in practice they will abandon the principles but they will always revere the institution and aquesite to it. I don't see that changing
Catholics on the other hand have rebranded themselves, they have always had an eaiser time seperating church and secular life. But as they came over in droves and as they penetrated the south they saw things they could exploit to gain the masses
The catholic message in the south (esp to the young people) sounds nearly identical to the one I had my bashed into my skull as a child.
What I'm trying to say is the nuance that has allowed the Catholic chruch to survive is being eroded in America to compete with a style of protstantism that they don't understand.
Or something like that. I have always wanted to go to mass, just to see what it's like. Are they still in Latin?
Or something like that. I have always wanted to go to mass, just to see what it's like. Are they still in Latin?
I think you are 90 to 100 years late for that.
TheLastDays
05-31-2011, 12:11
People were so worried about halloween and premarital sex that they threw away the actual message of Jesus in order to keep people within the church and it has backfired terribly.
This.
It's a main problem and one of the backgrounds for why some people in church don't understand their own "religion" really well. The teachings of Jesus, lived out to the full, of course would mean that we loved our enemies and that includes OBL.
Now... I don't believe that praying for dead people will do them any good, because I don't believe in a purgatory but if I did, sure I'd pray for OBL...
There's tons of examples of christians who, in the face of terrible loss, have lived the teachings of Jesus Christ and forgave those that have taken their families, friends, homes, etc.
But christians aren't perfect, Jesus was, some christian churches forget to teach the basic principles of what it means to be a christian to rather focus on banishing "halloween and premarital sex", some people, wo go to church, don't even really believe in God (shock!) - all these things together, and more, will lead to situations as described in the OP
gaelic cowboy
05-31-2011, 12:49
Or something like that. I have always wanted to go to mass, just to see what it's like. Are they still in Latin?
Not generally but the new Pope just reintroduced people's right to have such services, it was discontinued as part of the modernisation effort of the sixties.
http://www.austinlatinmass.org/
Not generally but the new Pope just reintroduced people's right to have such services, it was discontinued as part of the modernisation effort of the sixties.
http://www.austinlatinmass.org/
Herr Pope does not go in for all this modern fancy stuff like understanding what your god is trying to tell you :P
gaelic cowboy
05-31-2011, 13:15
Herr Pope does not go in for all this modern fancy stuff like understanding what your god is trying to tell you :P
Ah Benny so much comedy gold
Rhyfelwyr
05-31-2011, 14:52
But christians aren't perfect, Jesus was, some christian churches forget to teach the basic principles of what it means to be a christian to rather focus on banishing "halloween and premarital sex"
Paul saw fit to dedicate whole epistles to such issues, I guess he was just one of these modern Bible-bashers?
People are absolutely right to focus on things like "halloween and premarital sex", if people actually read the Bible instead of holding some vague notion of hippie-Jesus they would see he talked about them a lot as well.
It wasn't Jesus that said hate the sin love the sinner, that was Gandhi who was a bit of an attention-whore.
But what I will say is that people are too pharasaical about these things. Churches should be more forgiving and not ostracise people when they make mistakes.
TheLastDays
05-31-2011, 15:10
I am not saying that it is unimportant to talk about issues like halloween, premarital sex and all these things. The bible talks about them and they clearly have a place and I'm sure you can read a lot of it in Jesus' words if you interpret them your way... which is dangerous by the way...
But all I'm saying is, we can't take these things and focus on them and in the meantime throw out the things Jesus has actually, literally said, no need for interpretation, like "Love your enemies"
EDIT: Paul has also dedicated whole epistels and parts of almost any of his epistles to salvation by grace, not by works and the need to forgive...
Banquo's Ghost
05-31-2011, 16:54
Herr Pope does not go in for all this modern fancy stuff like understanding what your god is trying to tell you :P
Well, to be fair, the man has a point.
After all, once the proddies started translating and printing their own bibles they came up with about 75,000 different interpretations, innovative new religious wars and a great sideline in failed-apocalypse radio stations. Add to that the Renaissance and the Age of Reason developing atheism through spotting the extravagant inconsistencies in the story, and a general rejection of God's no-fun life plans in favour of easy-to-market hedonism, and you'd have every reason to think complete control of the message via a dead language is the only way to go, pope-wise.
Well, to be fair, the man has a point.
After all, once the proddies started translating and printing their own bibles they came up with about 75,000 different interpretations, innovative new religious wars and a great sideline in failed-apocalypse radio stations. Add to that the Renaissance and the Age of Reason developing atheism through spotting the extravagant inconsistencies in the story, and a general rejection of God's no-fun life plans in favour of easy-to-market hedonism, and you'd have every reason to think complete control of the message via a dead language is the only way to go, pope-wise.
the only possible step forward is charge-for-access like the Scientologists do :P
Tellos Athenaios
05-31-2011, 17:29
Nah, they should simply revolutionise the Bible market by issuing their custom hardware, in white or brushed aluminum, that is incompatible with everything else and designed to be as firmly locked down against all deviation from the one true version. Not only will it ensure the devotion of the believers, it will also insulate against detractors by the sheer brilliance of pointing out that they have to deal with inconsistencies and uncertainty for their unbelief, and additionally enable the Church to charge a premium for their service.
Nah, they should simply revolutionise the Bible market by issuing their custom hardware, in white or brushed aluminum, that is incompatible with everything else and designed to be as firmly locked down against all deviation from the one true version. Not only will it ensure the devotion of the believers, it will also insulate against detractors by the sheer brilliance of pointing out that they have to deal with inconsistencies and uncertainty for their unbelief, and additionally enable the Church to charge a premium for their service.
Someone heard about this news also: ;)
Analysis of Apple fanboys reveals 'religious reaction' in brain. (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-19/tech/apple.religion_1_apple-store-apple-employees-brains?_s=PM:TECH)
I´m an atheist in that field as well.
Louis VI the Fat
05-31-2011, 18:50
Popes shouldn't take much notice of what temporary whims demand of the Church. They should think in centuries, millenia.
I want my popes stern, reactionary, fascist, 'toe-tapping'. A pope ought to issue outrageous fatwa's from Roman balconies with a small boy hidden underneath his jilab, just so I can with some decency trash up a church every now and then without feeling like I'm only kicking some air and perhaps some completely harmless pious old ladies.
Someone heard about this news also: ;)
Analysis of Apple fanboys reveals 'religious reaction' in brain. (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-19/tech/apple.religion_1_apple-store-apple-employees-brains?_s=PM:TECH)
I´m an atheist in that field as well.I too am an Iatheist. :jumping:
Banquo's Ghost
06-01-2011, 07:44
Nah, they should simply revolutionise the Bible market by issuing their custom hardware, in white or brushed aluminum, that is incompatible with everything else and designed to be as firmly locked down against all deviation from the one true version. Not only will it ensure the devotion of the believers, it will also insulate against detractors by the sheer brilliance of pointing out that they have to deal with inconsistencies and uncertainty for their unbelief, and additionally enable the Church to charge a premium for their service.
Ah, finally I understand how my Catholic heritage underpins my devotion to the Apple. I love beauty in church frescoes and ancient choral music too.
I'm pretty much a full member of Opus Dei, computer-wise. :beam:
TheLastDays
06-01-2011, 08:09
I'm pretty much a full member of Opus Dei, computer-wise. :beam:
Jobus Dei?
Banquo's Ghost
06-01-2011, 12:49
Jobus Dei?
More Opus D'Ive :beam:
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