America "The No Vacation Nation"

[Strike For The South]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/23/vacation.in.america/index.html?hpt=P1&iref=NS1

Just to remind everyone of how good we have it, No socialism will infect us

I love it when dad is gone on thanksgiving, mum on Xmas, and I miss the 4th

https://img863.imageshack.us/img863/7818/5fe8aitoldthatteachinla.jpg (https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/863/5fe8aitoldthatteachinla.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

[Whacker]

It's because there's still the ridiculous and pervasive idea that the more hours you work, the more productive overall you are.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Dang it Strike, I was about to make a thread about that very article filled with questions I would like to hear people attempt to answer. I will just put them here anyway.

1. Does America really have the so called "Protestant Work Ethic" while others don't? Aren't German workers just as Protestant and hard working as the average US worker?

2. How does Germany manage to give so much to their workers and yet still remain so competitive? Doesn't Germany show that the path is possible for a European lifestyle without the fiscal excesses of Greece and Spain?

3. Is there a non-union way of attaining for US workers the same set up that Germany has? Isn't Germany one of the most union intensive countries in the West?

3.5 (For the right leaning anti-union folks in here). How would we be able to achieve what Germany has in terms of relaxation and productivity without unions? Do you even want to have the same levels of vacation that Germany does?

4. Finally, should workers view the relationship between working and living to be "working to live" or "living to work"? Is the former indicative of less personal responsibility than the latter?

[Centurion1]

5. Does ACIN have the ultimate hard on for Germany?

1. Yes to an extent though it has morphed more into the "american dream"

2. Greece to Spain to the UK is a HUGEEEEEEEE leap. And an insult to British workers

3. I'm not 100% sure. I don't have the requisite background knowledge. But I would say yes. Unions are not meant to exist forever just until there are enough rules and regulations in place to protect the worker. I believe the US may not be there yet but is getting closer.

3.5 See above. And Germans work alot more than you think.


"[Germans] work very hard, but then they take their holiday and really relax. ... It's more than just making money for Germans, it's about having time for your family and it's about having time to wind down."

Note they do not quantify how hard "very hard" is. I believe that they come very close in hours put in despite their vacations.

4. Yawn all the perspective of the worker. If you start making more money at payday should you work more hours for more cash and use the raise as an incentive or should you slack off on hours and use the raise as a crutch to work less for the same amount. Depends on the individual.

[a completely inoffensive name]

5. Does ACIN have the ultimate hard on for Germany?
Is it bad to have a hard on for a well run country?



2. Greece to Spain to the UK is a HUGEEEEEEEE leap. And an insult to British workers
Yeah, I was actually thinking of Ireland, then after looking it up I realized Ireland's crisis is of a different nature than of Greece and Spain. So I just removed UK and left those two.

[Centurion1]

You probably could have simply said Mediterranean nations. Obviously a generalization but one sadly founded in truth.

And Germany certainly isn't perfect. Though yes it is renowned as a well run country though to some extent that is because of the prevalent culture. America can never share that culture.

[Strike For The South]

So Germany is inherintly better than us?

I feel like this explanation is inadequate

[Centurion1]

Not better. Hell no. Just ...... different...... yeah I hate saying that too. But their country is set up differently and their people act and behave differently than Americans. This obviously isn't something we can adapt and change to without becoming culturally and genetically German and overhauling our governmental system. Nor would I want to.

[Strike For The South]

Not better. Hell no. Just ...... different...... yeah I hate saying that too. But their country is set up differently and their people act and behave differently than Americans. This obviously isn't something we can adapt and change to without becoming culturally and genetically German and overhauling our governmental system. Nor would I want to.

Pray tell my good man

[Fragony]

So Germany is inherintly better than us?

I feel like this explanation is inadequate

Germany is much compacter so it's easier to be productive

[Centurion1]

Tell what? The cultural differences between Americans and Germans. Or the governmental differences?

I daresay you know the answers to both of those questions especially the culture one. Which I certainly don't want to delve into because it deals with too many stereotypes and too much google looking for statistics.

[Strike For The South]

Germany is much compacter so it's easier to be productive

My first wife was like that


Tell what? The cultural differences between Americans and Germans. Or the governmental differences?

I daresay you know the answers to both of those questions especially the culture one. Which I certainly don't want to delve into because it deals with too many stereotypes and too much google looking for statistics.

So you have a bunch of vauge and abstract reasons which you can not articulate but still think you're right?

My first wife was like that

[Centurion1]

My first wife was like that

Was she also a joker

[Sarmatian]

So you have a bunch of vauge and abstract reasons which you can not articulate but still think you're right?


You said it yourself in the first post.



https://img863.imageshack.us/img863/7818/5fe8aitoldthatteachinla.jpg (https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/863/5fe8aitoldthatteachinla.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

[a completely inoffensive name]

My first wife was like that

Hey, she is a nice lady Strike. Don't be acting all ungentlemanly like.

[Andres]

It has always been a mystery to me why American employees allow themselves to be treated as such.

Even when there was no crisis or recession, you guys were working your butts off with almost no free time... for what exactly? This has to be some huge cultural difference, because it's completely and utterly incomprehensible to me.

Now here in Europe, they are trying to tell us that we need work to harder and longer to overcome the current crisis but... working long and hard is what the people in the US have been doing for ages and they are as bankrupt, if not more bankrupt, as Europe, so I fail to see why working harder and longer should be the solution of all our problems.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think the answer is in here:


But the fear of layoffs and the ever-faster pace of work mean many Americans are reluctant to be absent from the office -- anxious that they might look like they're not committed to their job. Or they worry they won't be able to cope with the backlog of work waiting for them after a vacation.

To a European a well run company means that there is no such stigma and there are colleagues to pick up your work while you are gone and keep backlogs to a minimum. To your European colleagues you taking a well deserved vacation is simply “good on you” and not the sign of laziness or indifference.

As for working long hours, that is the usual rubbish. It comes with the caveat of being not as productive in the hours that you work, typically through being tired or bored or both.

[The Stranger]

holidays are overrated.

[Shibumi]

I can see a few cultural reasons, the primary one being the belief in "The American Dream" - work long and hard and you will be rewarded.

It is fascinating watching how American workers are fully ready to work their behinds off for the possibility (remote as it is) that somewhere at some time - they will get the life they dream of.

In Germany on the other hand the workers gladly give up the possibility of one day being The Rich - and instead have time for their family, and time to go on vacations.

I big cultural difference, IMHO the American Dream has ****** the Americans pretty hard - combine that with a megacapitalistic society and you get todays situation.

[Fragony]

I don't think it's a cultural difference but a logistical one. Because America is so big and the recources so spread out it's hard to produce things for the same costs. Got to stay competitive, so more working hours.

[HoreTore]

Cultural difference? Logistical difference? Hah!

The answer is obvious, it is a political difference. Germany is a social democracy, the US is not. Plain and simple.

[rory_20_uk]

It's because there's still the ridiculous and pervasive idea that the more hours you work, the more productive overall you are.

Many of my colleagues who have worked in the USA commented on how it is the length of time you are in the office / lab that counts - not what you're managing to do. Some were so burned out they were managing to do far less although they were doing far more hours.

~:smoking:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Cultural difference? Logistical difference? Hah!

The answer is obvious, it is a political difference. Germany is a social democracy, the US is not. Plain and simple.

But maybe the fact the USA is not a social democracy is due to cultural/logistical differences..

[drone]

Who can take a vacation when you are trying to keep up with the Joneses?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Who can take a vacation when you are trying to keep up with the Joneses?

I thought that was more of a British thing...

[HoreTore]

But maybe the fact the USA is not a social democracy is due to cultural/logistical differences..

An interesting question; where does politics end and culture starts? Is there a line between the two at all?

[drone]

I thought that was more of a British thing...
You Brits may do it, but we have perfected it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It is a complete tragedy that hardly any of the enormous increase of wealth has gone into improving the quality of life.

Sadly, the real world is a rat race. A winner takes it all system, between countries as much as between individuals. To slave like ants or to perish, such is the choice. We voluntarily go into the mines, fourteen hours a day, six days a week. Our ancestors must think we are mad. Gah!

[Shibumi]

There is a growing movement in Sweden to shift the country at large to a 6h work system (as compared to the now standard 8h).

Yes you read it right.

The reasoning is that it would allow double shifts, more leisure time, more people getting access to jobs, and last but not least - a higher efficiency. You can work hard and focused for 6 hours, but hardly 8 - and lowering the hours would mean just that - that people go to work and actually work, instead of checking facebook, Backroom, whatever.

What are your thoughts on this?

I kind of see the merit of the idea.

[gaelic cowboy]

There is a growing movement in Sweden to shift the country at large to a 6h work system (as compared to the now standard 8h).

Yes you read it right.

The reasoning is that it would allow double shifts, more leisure time, more people getting access to jobs, and last but not least - a higher efficiency. You can work hard and focused for 6 hours, but hardly 8 - and lowering the hours would mean just that - that people go to work and actually work, instead of checking facebook, Backroom, whatever.

What are your thoughts on this?

I kind of see the merit of the idea.

I could see major problems in manufacturing infact I could see problems in any kind of work due to increased shift change, I would say that downtime/non-productive time could increase as you would have four shift changes a day instead of three.

[Viking]

A nation of holidays is a nation of obesity. Don't go there. :thinking:

[Shibumi]

Oh, this idea is not so much about production, as it is about everything else. Salesmen, doctors, teachers and so on.

[Lemur]

Having worked for five years in a 24/7 design/publishing shop, I can say honestly that any multiple of 6 works more easily than a multiple of 8. Exemplum gratum, I would work three twelve-hour shifts, and then get a few days off. I liked it much better than working five eight-hour shifts for a measly two days off. Don't really know about six hour shifts, although scheduling would be relatively easy.

[Rhyfelwyr]

How you going to survive on miminum wage doing six hour shifts, unless you don't plan on having any days off?

[Shibumi]

How you going to survive on miminum wage doing six hour shifts, unless you don't plan on having any days off?

Minimum wage is minimum wage no matter how many hours you put in? We do not really have "minimum wage" workers in Sweden. I mean, of course we have a minimum wage, but people tend to get far more than that even at "minimum wage" jobs.

And more importantly, you get paid for the months job, you would get the same working 6h as you would from working 8h. The extra expenditure would get evened out when you factor in that people would work harder - and that for every 4 jobs you would have one less person off of social security pay from the state.

[Samurai Waki]

Yeah, I don't have a typical job so I have an a-typical workweek. None of this 8-5 Madness, I never liked it, that's why I got my degree (that and the pay). I usually work four twelves a week, but on occasion I'll do three sixteen hour days... I get four weeks paid vacation, isn't mandatory, but come July I'm taking the family over to the UK to visit my brother and sister-in-law. First time outside of the country since my the girls came along, and the first time off the North American continent since before College. Stoked.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Minimum wage is minimum wage no matter how many hours you put in? We do not really have "minimum wage" workers in Sweden. I mean, of course we have a minimum wage, but people tend to get far more than that even at "minimum wage" jobs.

And more importantly, you get paid for the months job, you would get the same working 6h as you would from working 8h. The extra expenditure would get evened out when you factor in that people would work harder - and that for every 4 jobs you would have one less person off of social security pay from the state.

The problem there is that what people receive for the bog standard benefits is still well below what you would earn working full time at minimum wage. So if you take hours off of people already working, you won't be able to increase their wages to the point that they would be earning what they did working more hours just through the saving made through the fact that there is no longer unemployed people needing benefits.

If you want to help the unemployed I think you need to find another way to do it. Because with this system, the people worst affected are the the lowest earners, because they are the ones who will face competition as the unemployed come into work.

White collar workers don't need to worry about this because the unemployed don't have the skills to go into their line of work. It is people like me on minimum wage, and I know in this sort of environment there is a lot of competition with people wanting more hours because they need them to get by.

[Shibumi]

"Rhyfelwr has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

You might want to sort that.

[Rhyfelwyr]

ok try again...

[Rhyfelwyr]

shibumi, you are probably best just saying whatever it is here, since a certain Frenchman has decided to send me a flood of PM's entitled "is your inbox full yet"...

[Shibumi]

I trusted your .org-fu to be better than his pitiful .org-fu.

Success.

Doh.

[HoreTore]

Rhy: the proposal to switch to a 6 hour day will include having the same as one did for 8 hours.

[gaelic cowboy]

Minimum wage is minimum wage no matter how many hours you put in? We do not really have "minimum wage" workers in Sweden. I mean, of course we have a minimum wage, but people tend to get far more than that even at "minimum wage" jobs.

If you reduce the hours then peoples wages will decrease as the ammount of unskilled people flood into the semiskilled positions reducing the bargaining power of the people already there.


And more importantly, you get paid for the months job, you would get the same working 6h as you would from working 8h. The extra expenditure would get evened out when you factor in that people would work harder - and that for every 4 jobs you would have one less person off of social security pay from the state.

No you wont get the same, you get paid for what you do so if you do less you WILL get less for it.

Also the idea that people will work harder is faulty in the vast majority of low wage jobs it's cost per hour and not how hard the worker toils that is key for employers, in fact in some positions it is impossible to work any harder how does a receptionist work harder or a chef.

[gaelic cowboy]

Rhy: the proposal to switch to a 6 hour day will include having the same as one did for 8 hours.

If by the same you mean overall basic wage then it's a non-runner in the low wage economy where services usually compete on cost then employee costs are the biggest factor involved extra workers means extra cost and therefore actually less jobs overall.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Rhy: the proposal to switch to a 6 hour day will include having the same as one did for 8 hours.

Yeah but the modern minimum wage is based on providing enough for people working 8 hour days. As I said earlier the savings from giving benefits to the unemployed would not be enough to give people a sufficient raise so they would still be making what they did working more hours.

As for the productivity on long hours, I've never found it made a difference to me, although I don't have anything better than anectodal evidence.

[HoreTore]

If by the same you mean overall basic wage then it's a non-runner in the low wage economy where services usually compete on cost then employee costs are the biggest factor involved extra workers means extra cost and therefore actually less jobs overall.

Yes, I mean overall basic wage. The question is whether it is competitive to do so. The claimed benefits are:

-higher productivity
-less sick days
-more flexibility

Whether that outweighs the benefits of 2 extra hours is unknown. There are plenty of trials underway in both the private and the public sector, but they're not concluded yet so it's too early to draw a conclusion.

[Subotan]

1. Does America really have the so called "Protestant Work Ethic" while others don't? Aren't German workers just as Protestant and hard working as the average US worker?
I asked my American politics tutor this at the Fresher's Dinner - he laughed in my face!


2. How does Germany manage to give so much to their workers and yet still remain so competitive?
In short, years of stagnant wage growth and vocational education. The Germans have endured about two decades of pretty brutal reforms to make their economy the leanest, meanest exporting machine in all of the west. Also, remember that East Germany provides a handy source of cheap labour.


Doesn't Germany show that the path is possible for a European lifestyle without the fiscal excesses of Greece and Spain?
Yes. In contrast to Germany, these two countries (As well as Italy, Portugal etc.) were gradually undermined in competitiveness by Germany, as their real wages rose quite happily over the period. Now, since they can't devalue their currency to escape the debt trap, they're having to go through a "real" devaluation in order to become competitive with Germany again - i.e. years of real and normative wage decline.


3. Is there a non-union way of attaining for US workers the same set up that Germany has? Isn't Germany one of the most union intensive countries in the West?

Yes, it has a unionisation rate of about 18%. However, they're very passive, and they are well integrated into the decision and policy making process of the German government. The German constitution essentially forces consensus whilst being representative - it's called a "coordination democracy" for a reason. It's boring as hell to study, and you'd be better off trying to steer an icebreaker down the Mississippi than trying to radically reform German policy, but it works.

In response to your first question, yes, but it would require a whole new constitutional arrangement.


3.5 How would we be able to achieve what Germany has in terms of relaxation and productivity without unions?
One easy way would be cheaper healthcare costs - money that's spent on tests and scans and insurance company profits is spent on other things in Germany.


4. Finally, should workers view the relationship between working and living to be "working to live" or "living to work"? Is the former indicative of less personal responsibility than the latter?
The philosopher in me demands that I say that the former is always the right decision, but I'm not sure if it's feasible.


And Germany certainly isn't perfect. Though yes it is renowned as a well run country though to some extent that is because of the prevalent culture. America can never share that culture.
Correct, Germany isn't perfect - Turkish immigrants anyone?

It's much more to do with the constitution of Germany than any German culture - for example, the two main parties, the Socialists and the Conservatives spent 2005-2009 in government together in order to keep the nutters out. Such an arrangement simply couldn't happen in American politics, not ever.


An interesting question; where does politics end and culture starts? Is there a line between the two at all?
Somebody has been reading Gramsci!

[Fragony]

Yes, I mean overall basic wage. The question is whether it is competitive to do so. The claimed benefits are:

-higher productivity
-less sick days
-more flexibility

Whether that outweighs the benefits of 2 extra hours is unknown. There are plenty of trials underway in both the private and the public sector, but they're not concluded yet so it's too early to draw a conclusion.

Norway kinda has an advantage, it's succes has nothing to do with anything but oil. Recources mia muca, not political policy

[Sarmatian]

Norway kinda has an advantage, it's succes has nothing to do with anything but oil. Recources mia muca, not political policy

Yeah, right. Norway was a third world country several decades ago.

Norway’s wealth: Not just oil (http://voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/1199)

[HoreTore]

Fragistan: what on earth are on about? Where am I talking about "Norway's wealth"? What drugs have you been taking today? :inquisitive:

Sarmatian: I read the article, and it was good, until it called Victor Norman's report important and an "eye opener". That report was just a slander piece from Høyre to discredit the government at the time and hopefully boost their election bid.

In addition to that, he is incompetent as all hell.

[Sarmatian]

Fragistan: what on earth are on about? Where am I talking about "Norway's wealth"? What drugs have you been taking today? :inquisitive:

Sarmatian: I read the article, and it was good, until it called Victor Norman's report important and an "eye opener". That report was just a slander piece from Høyre to discredit the government at the time and hopefully boost their election bid.

In addition to that, he is incompetent as all hell.

Well, it was the first that came up and it was easier to link it than explain myself but it does a good job explaining that it's not really only about oil.

[HoreTore]

There are two keys to norway's wealth: energy demanding industry and shipping, with the latter being the most important. The oil simply came on top of that.

The reason we're a pleasant country to live in? Wealth distribution. And that started in the start of the 19th century. We are one of the worlds wealthiest countries, yet we have only 3* dollar billionares... That is the Norwegian model.



*as far as I know, Hagen, Thon and Fredriksen are the only ones with a fortune of 1 billion USD or more.

[Andres]

Next week, I have a prolonged week-end from Thursday 'til Sunday :2thumbsup:

And another day off June 13th :2thumbsup:

[HoreTore]

For the rest of my life, I will have all of July off, half of june and august, one week in september, extended christmas break, one week in february and an extended easter break. :beam:

[Tellos Athenaios]

There are two keys to norway's wealth: energy demanding industry and shipping, with the latter being the most important. The oil simply came on top of that.

The reason we're a pleasant country to live in? Wealth distribution. And that started in the start of the 19th century. We are one of the worlds wealthiest countries, yet we have only 3* dollar billionares... That is the Norwegian model.



*as far as I know, Hagen, Thon and Fredriksen are the only ones with a fortune of 1 billion USD or more.

And fishing. If the oil went, Norway wouldn't be quite as rich as it is now but the economy would continue to function at comfortable, modern living standards.

@Fragony: actually in terms of monetary worth the Netherlands has (well, used to have) the same trump card as Norway has (well somewhat less since the exploitation has been going on a bit longer) though granted there are rather more people to share it with. Or as Hore Tore might say, both countries have enjoyed years of social democrats. ~;)

[Fragony]

That would sound really good if you weren't aware that these prices are set, and that we are buying back our own gas, but you already know that don't you

[Tellos Athenaios]

That would sound really good if you weren't aware that these prices are set, and that we are buying back our own gas, but you already know that don't you

Yes. Well we're not buying back our own gas, really, it's just that the economics of gas are a little strange in Europe. But the point stands that while the Dutch and Norse extract significant revenue from these resources they are not fundamental to the viability of their economies. (Somewhat more so in the case of the Netherlands, than in the case of Norway, the benefits of being situated in this particular patch of swampland.)

[Scienter]

I'm lucky because I'm a federal employee and earn a decent bit of vacation and sick leave. TC and I take a 2 week vacation every year, plus some side trips. If we could afford it, I'd go on 2 vacations. Sure, I make less than my counterparts in the private sector, but I would rather take my vacation and other time off than work 14 hours a day. In some private sector jobs, people only get 14 days of vacation leave! AND it doubles as sick leave. So, if you get the flu, your vacation plans are ruined.

I don't know why Americans have developed this crazy culture where we work ourselves to death. My general impression is that in Europe, people are more focused on enjoying life and relaxing. Whereas in the US, people are focused on making money and acquiring status. These are broad generalizations, but they seem accurate. I don't see the point of making a ton of money if I'm working 14 hours a day 6 days a week and am completely miserable.

[drone]

In some private sector jobs, people only get 14 days of vacation leave! AND it doubles as sick leave. So, if you get the flu, your vacation plans are ruined.
I've worked at 2 companies that switched from separate sick/vacation to "paid time off" (PTO). I started with 2 weeks sick and 2 weeks vacation (plus extra depending on years of service). When they combined, I basically lost 1 week of total time off. The upside is you no longer feel guilty taking "mental health days". The downside is employees' mentality changes, most see this time off as straight vacation, and have to be coughing up blood before they will take the time off. Which means they risk infecting the rest of us. ~:rolleyes:

Sick time was also something you were allowed to accrue over the years, so you could bank the time and use it if you got really ill. My dad, a federal employee, was able to take his saved sick leave and add it to his years in service, and retired 2 years early. When the PTO policies were implemented, companies couldn't take this time outright, but it was stored as time you could take before long-term disability kicked in. Yearly rollover of PTO is limited to 1 or 2 weeks banked total, this is done for financial reasons as companies don't want to pay for your vacation time after your salary increases.

Personally, I don't mind the PTO, since I rarely used sick leave anyway I have benefited. But I know a few people have been burnt by it, and I don't think it's good policy overall.

[Kagemusha]

There is a growing movement in Sweden to shift the country at large to a 6h work system (as compared to the now standard 8h).

Yes you read it right.

The reasoning is that it would allow double shifts, more leisure time, more people getting access to jobs, and last but not least - a higher efficiency. You can work hard and focused for 6 hours, but hardly 8 - and lowering the hours would mean just that - that people go to work and actually work, instead of checking facebook, Backroom, whatever.

What are your thoughts on this?

I kind of see the merit of the idea.

I think there s lot of merit in that. Work is about efficiency, not about amount of time spent at work.

[Strike For The South]

I haven't had a day off in 17 days until tmrw

I still asked them to call me in

I go stir crazy

Meth is exspensive

[Rhyfelwyr]

One guy I know works at Tesco's is now on his 28th straight day in or thereabouts.

[Kagemusha]

One more working day and then my four week Summer vacation starts!:holiday2:

[a completely inoffensive name]

One more working day and then my four week Summer vacation starts!:holiday2:

You are supposed to be silenced dude. Breaking mafia rules means I have to report you to ATPG.

[Kagemusha]

You are supposed to be silenced dude. Breaking mafia rules means I have to report you to ATPG.

:laugh4: