Truthers, Birthers, Deathers; now ... um ... Assasinators? Massacrers? Shootingers?

[Lemur]

I can't think of a good name for the latest sub-population of conspiracy theorists. Seems that some folks are arguing that the Giffords shooting was an elaborate hoax (http://wellaware1.com/) staged by professional actors and the guvmint.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8iKZJwZ_us

I swear, if I had a penny for every lunatic fringe group ... anyway, given how the Truthers and Birthers did not go away when the mainstream media ignored them, normal news outlets are covering this as if it were a real story (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/us/25tucson.html?_r=1).

Question:

Should MSM give small-population loons attention? Argument against: Legitimizes them. Argument for: Ignoring hasn't worked real good lately.

[Samurai Waki]

Poor woman... she doesn't deserve this crap. I'd say exile them to one of those islands we tested nukes on back in the '60s... but then we have that damn constitution in the way...

[jirisys]

given how the Truthers and Birthers did not go away when the mainstream media ignored them

Aren't the originators of that "fringe group" 9/11 families?

:inquisitive:

If you had read the 9/11 commission report, some mistakes are so laughable a 10 year old can point it out. Not to mention any person with any amount of knowledge of physics.

I'm not saying somebody did it. I'm saying the government said some utter stupid stuff.

~Jirisys ()

[Lemur]

Oh, somebody did it, alright. A group called Al Qaeda. That's never been in serious contention.

It's also possible that a giant invisible penguin attacked the U.S.A. on 9/11/01 ... it's just extremely unlikely. Don't cut yourself on Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor), there.

Also, the earliest truthers on record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_movement#History) were not families, although a few did join that deluded cause.

Going back to my point: Should lunatic fringe theories and theorists get mainstream attention? I'm beginning to believe the answer is "yes."

[PanzerJaeger]

Eh.. I don't see this one catching on like the others. Every good conspiracy theory needs an extraordinary outcome to justify the time and energy the perpetrators supposedly put into planning and execution. For the Truthers, it was two wars in the Middle East, and for the Birthers, it was the election of a president unqualified to serve.

I personally believe FDR had knowledge of an impending attack on Pearl Harbor and let it happen to create a suitable environment to pursue his interventionist intentions. Again, the outcome is big and important enough to justify the conspiracy.

In this case, however, such a conspiracy would require the cooperation of hundreds if not thousands of people - all committed to an outrageous lie. But what was the outcome? The author of the site says it was to push an anti-free speech, anti-gun agenda, yet no significant legislation of any kind has emerged from the tragedy. The president wrote an anti-gun op-ed in the local paper, and that was it.

[gaelic cowboy]

Aren't the originators of that "fringe group" 9/11 families?

:inquisitive:

If you had read the 9/11 commission report, some mistakes are so laughable a 10 year old can point it out. Not to mention any person with any amount of knowledge of physics.

I'm not saying somebody did it. I'm saying the government said some utter stupid stuff.

~Jirisys ()

What physics???? any engineer will tell the planes brought the towers down.

As regards the OP hopefully the american public are smarter than this fella and his loonism

[Centurion1]

I would say the birthers while ridiculous absolute bull**** artists are nowhere near the same level and insanity as the truthers and this....... giffords thing.

Edit: And gaelic those engineers have been corrupted by big brother.

[gaelic cowboy]

Such a laugh yea Big Brother who couldnt even rustle up a simple fake nuke in Iraq to justify war but they pulled off the most complicated fake plane crashing in history.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well this is just too crazy, the guv'ment couldn't pull something like this off, its too big to pull off a conspiracy.

What the video does make clear is that this was all very well planned, and it is obviously a conspiracy by a tight-knit fringe far-right militia group, designed to frame the government and make it look like it planned the whole thing.

With birtherism dying down, they must have known they needed something else to discredit the Obama administration.

[Lemur]

Every good conspiracy theory needs an extraordinary outcome to justify the time and energy the perpetrators supposedly put into planning and execution.
I had never considered it from that angle. Interesting. What would be the extraordinary outcome of faking the moon landing, then? And what would be the outcome of a giant conspiracy to murder JFK? (Assuming the death of a sitting president is not, in and of itself, a giant outcome, and, hmmm, maybe that's enough in and of itself.)

[gaelic cowboy]

I had never considered it from that angle. Interesting. What would be the extraordinary outcome of faking the moon landing, then?

Well I suppose it could be a conspiracy to prevent people finding out the world was flat after all.

[lars573]

I had never considered it from that angle. Interesting. What would be the extraordinary outcome of faking the moon landing, then? And what would be the outcome of a giant conspiracy to murder JFK? (Assuming the death of a sitting president is not, in and of itself, a giant outcome, and, hmmm, maybe that's enough in and of itself.)
On the moon landing: To make sure that JFK's challenge was met.

On JFK getting slotted: To put a more agreeable (to the anti-commie reactionaries in the US military and intelligence services) man in the top spot

[jirisys]

Oh, somebody did it, alright. A group called Al Qaeda. That's never been in serious contention.

It's also possible that a giant invisible penguin attacked the U.S.A. on 9/11/01 ... it's just extremely unlikely. Don't cut yourself on Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor), there.

Also, the earliest truthers on record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_movement#History) were not families, although a few did join that deluded cause.

Going back to my point: Should lunatic fringe theories and theorists get mainstream attention? I'm beginning to believe the answer is "yes."

Strawman, I don't care who did it. That's not my point.

Ad absurdum. Never said that. I am not saying there weren't any planes.

I doubt a building on fire can collapse like it did (WTC 7), Steel doesn't melt at fire temperature, or else turbines wouldn't resist the termperatures. Heck, bunsen burners are barely able to melt steel. It can damage, sure. but really, falling down like that, well. That can be almost impossible in my book. Even debris

Anyways, they should get no attention IMO. I am questioning assertions here, not making my own. It's pretty simple, skepticism. Have you seen this crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862 It hardly made the whole building collapse, and it was a 747. They were making a 90 degree bank. The reason of the narrowness of the impact.

Hey, I'm just saying, don't believe everything that you hear :inquisitive:.

Though this is getting off topic. Just wanted to clarify.

~Jirisys ()

[Samurai Waki]

SI doubt a building on fire can collapse like it did (WTC 7), Steel doesn't melt at fire temperature, or else turbines wouldn't resist the termperatures. Heck, bunsen burners are barely able to melt steel. It can damage, sure. but really, falling down like that, well. That can be almost impossible in my book. Even debris

This is one of the worst cases of grasping at straws when it comes down to the WTC collapse. "Fire" Can indeed melt steel how do you think they formed the pylons, crossbeams and buttresses for the buildings to begin with? It comes down to the grade of the steel, and it's been proven again and again that the steel in several parts of the world trade center were of inferior quality, and would've melted at a lower temperature than high grade steel.

Ugh, don't want to turn this into a 9/11 conspiracy theory debate.

[gaelic cowboy]

I doubt a building on fire can collapse like it did (WTC 7), Steel doesn't melt at fire temperature, or else turbines wouldn't resist the termperatures. Heck, bunsen burners are barely able to melt steel. It can damage, sure. but really, falling down like that, well. That can be almost impossible in my book. Even debris

Steel is even more likely to collapse than timber the reason is the fact the steel expands and breaks it's concrete casing, jet fuel burns at a massive heat but it does not need to even get close to melting for the building to be weakened.


Anyways, they should get no attention IMO. I am questioning assertions here, not making my own. It's pretty simple, skepticism. Have you seen this crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862 It hardly made the whole building collapse, and it was a 747. They were making a 90 degree bank. The reason of the narrowness of the impact.

That building is prob only ten floors the weight differential comes into play here. (Jirisys the link is broken you need to edit the link you added a bracket to the web address)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-6IeADGa24

[jirisys]

Ugh, don't want to turn this into a 9/11 conspiracy theory debate.

Yet here we are.

Let's drop it already. I just find it very annoying that people consider myself a truther, and then a conspiracy theorist. I am a non-truther if you will. Here only to observe and discard.

I think I wish to reiterate my point of not giving them attention, to "giving them attention". As always, the more attention you give them, the more attendees will laugh at them when it fails. Kinda like May 22. If only the mass of american people were not either "We love good ol USA and white house tells truth all time, you a commie or conspiracy theorist when you deny this!" and "the government always lies, never trust it, it's never real, nothing is real, the footage was filmed and aired later"; then it would make for a more rational outcome.

It's like stopping a bank robbery because one man was black. Good idea, bad reason.

I do not trust any government whatsoever, but not for the wrong reasons. I do not trust them because most politicians are not to be trusted because of their past actions or intentions.

Now the American involvement (and subsequent denials about that) on the 9/11 coup d'etat on Chile is much more obvious.

~Jirisys (I know it's incoherent. I'm falling asleep here.)

[Beskar]

https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8292/jengafb2.png

[Strike For The South]

We overthrow 1 democratricaly elected leader and suddenly we control everything

Lets be honest it's much eaiser to impose a government on Chile than pull off 9/11

[Samurai Waki]

Well if you go by Conspiracy Theorists, apparently the Illuminati and Rosicrucians are really behind everything bad that has ever happened in the last two hundred years... it inevitably comes down to evil Secret Societies funded by the League of Jewish Bankers, a front of course for the Legion of Doom.

[Motep]

Well if you go by Conspiracy Theorists, apparently the Illuminati and Rosicrucians are really behind everything bad that has ever happened in the last two hundred years... it inevitably comes down to evil Secret Societies funded by the League of Jewish Bankers, a front of course for the Legion of Doom.

http://one-evil.org/default.asp

XD

I'm not sure if they take themselves seriously...

[Populus Romanus]

Have you seen this crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862 It hardly made the whole building collapse, and it was a 747. They were making a 90 degree bank. The reason of the narrowness of the impact.

~Jirisys ()

A 90 degree bank, yes, but their with their right wing pointed straight at the ground. Not at all like 9/11 due to the fact that the wing would hit the ground before the fuselage touches the buildings, causing the plane to ripped apart before it can deal any significant* structural damage.

*compared to the potential damage, 39 people incinerated is no insignificant total.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Meh. Conspirationists work with different logic, with different rules regarding truth and likelihood and probabilities. They also want to believe. It is often not really possible to convince them otherwise with facts and reason.


While we're all at it, I might as well engage in some conspirational thought myself, just for good measure:

Well if you go by Conspiracy Theorists, apparently the Illuminati and Rosicrucians are really behind everything bad that has ever happened in the last two hundred years... it inevitably comes down to evil Secret Societies funded by the League of Jewish Bankers, a front of course for the Legion of Doom.Well...currently the heads of the IMF, the G8, the G20, Bilderberg, French Freemansonry and the president of France are, together with one Walloon, all (half) Jewish, all known to each other, and all from one single small area in Paris...

Barely had this group taken control of international finance, or entire European countries were destabilised and enslaved...

They are also in league with the ultrawealtyhy Québec financier Desmarais, a close friend of Sarkozy, who was illegally funded by him. In return for the favour, Sarkozy, a close business associate of Desmarais, intervened in internal Québec politics, speaking out against Québec seperatism, supporting the Jewish media demonisation of the Bloc, the sovereigntist party, which consequently lost the Canadian election....


Of course, somebody managed to take out the head of the IMF last week. Probably because he is also leader of the freemasons. Or maybe because he married one of the largest fortunes in France. Courtesy of the Jewish art dealer who doubled as the agent of Matisse and Picasso, who grew immensely wealthy by using his connections to convince the world this was great art, deserving to replace Europe's figurative art which made nobody any great fortune...


(Yes, it is all 'true'. These are golden times for adherents to conspirational thought about a Judeo-Masonic Fifth Republic)

[Samurai Waki]

While we're all at it, I might as well engage in some conspirational thought myself, just for good measure:
Well...currently the heads of the IMF, the G8, the G20, Bilderberg, French Freemansonry and the president of France are, together with one Walloon, all (half) Jewish, all known to each other, and all from one single small area in Paris...

Barely had this group taken control of international finance, or entire European countries were destabilised and enslaved...

They are also in league with the ultrawealtyhy Québec financier Desmarais, a close friend of Sarkozy, who was illegally funded by him. In return for the favour, Sarkozy, a close business associate of Desmarais, intervened in internal Québec politics, speaking out against Québec seperatism, supporting the Jewish media demonisation of the Bloc, the sovereigntist party, which consequently lost the Canadian election....


Of course, somebody managed to take out the head of the IMF last week. Probably because he is also leader of the freemasons. Or maybe because he married one of the largest fortunes in France. Courtesy of the Jewish art dealer who doubled as the agent of Matisse and Picasso, who grew immensely wealthy by using his connections to convince the world this was great art, deserving to replace Europe's figurative art which made nobody any great fortune...


(Yes, it is all 'true'. These are golden times for adherents to conspirational thought about a Judeo-Masonic Fifth Republic)

Meanwhile at the Legion of Doom:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HxrYlY_GRF4/SdjWpdE8fII/AAAAAAAAArk/lZWy_EiO-DU/s400/Legion_of_Doom.jpg

[jirisys]

We overthrow 1 democratricaly elected leader and suddenly we control everything

Lets be honest it's much eaiser to impose a government on Chile than pull off 9/11

Making unnecesary link between our 9/11 and your 9/11


A 90 degree bank, yes, but their with their right wing pointed straight at the ground. Not at all like 9/11 due to the fact that the wing would hit the ground before the fuselage touches the buildings, causing the plane to ripped apart before it can deal any significant* structural damage.

*compared to the potential damage, 39 people incinerated is no insignificant total.

What do you mean the pentagon attack was staged?????

No but seriously. I admire how dumb people can be. Hey, I'm not saying anything bout illuminati masonic jewish zionistic propagandist media.

~Jirisys ()

[a completely inoffensive name]

9/11 WAS A PART TIME JOB! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

[Populus Romanus]

Making unnecesary link between our 9/11 and your 9/11

~Jirisys ()

What are you talking about? That is not your 9/11. Your San Salvadorian, not Chilean. :stare:

[Ituralde]

On the moon landing: To make sure that JFK's challenge was met.

On JFK getting slotted: To put a more agreeable (to the anti-commie reactionaries in the US military and intelligence services) man in the top spot

So first they make him look good and then they kill him?

Nah, guess I've heard crazier theories.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Get a life people.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Having been an interested observer of US politics and government since the early 1970s, I can readily assert that I would be stunned to find out that our government or elements thereof could be even a tenth as coordinated or a 100th as secretive as some of these conspiracies would have us believe.

These conspiracies are the "best plans" of a government that intervened in a civil war in Southeast Asia but for years refused to bomb or damage the enemy's primary industrial/transpo center; of an administration that staged a break-in of the opposing political party's local headquarters using 3rd-tier criminals....to defeat an opponent who was already so marginalized that he would go on to win only 17 of the 538 electoral votes; or a subsequent administration that fomented rebellion in Iran and then were surprised that, after 40 years of working with the Shah, many Iranians were less than happy with the USA and unwilling to love us for our recent change of heart....

Examples can continue ad nauseum, but I think you take my point.

[Shibumi]

Having been an interested observer of US politics and government since the early 1970s, I can readily assert that I would be stunned to find out that our government or elements thereof could be even a tenth as coordinated or a 100th as secretive as some of these conspiracies would have us believe.

These conspiracies are the "best plans" of a government that intervened in a civil war in Southeast Asia but for years refused to bomb or damage the enemy's primary industrial/transpo center; of an administration that staged a break-in of the opposing political party's local headquarters using 3rd-tier criminals....to defeat an opponent who was already so marginalized that he would go on to win only 17 of the 538 electoral votes; or a subsequent administration that fomented rebellion in Iran and then were surprised that, after 40 years of working with the Shah, many Iranians were less than happy with the USA and unwilling to love us for our recent change of heart....

Examples can continue ad nauseum, but I think you take my point.

That is pretty much my view of conspiracy theories too. Governments just seem too stupid to actually be able to pull it off.

But then, we could always blame the Illuminati..

[jirisys]

That is pretty much my view of conspiracy theories too. Governments just seem too stupid to actually be able to pull it off.

But then, we could always blame the Illuminati..

Well, people have been stupider so it can be pulled off. In El Salvador, billions of dollars have been stolen from everywhere, "diputados" (assemblymen) are now so secluded in their own power nest, will not do anything good for the people before stealing some couple thousand bucks in return.

People that denounce this are called commies and few of them ever give out word on the streets. We all know what's happening. But most people don't care, as long as they have sth to eat, and money from their families in the US.


What are you talking about? That is not your 9/11. Your San Salvadorian, not Chilean. :stare:

First, San Salvador is not a country, it's a city. My father's mother's side of the family is chilean. I therefore, am chilean by nacionality.

~Jirisys ()

[Xiahou]

Popular Mechanics on WTC7 (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-world-trade-center#wtc7)
The building was built straddling an electrical substation- a feat that required some complicated engineering and load transfers. Some weakness in the right support columns would be all it'd take to make the building unstable. And the building suffered significant damage from debris. I really don't see any mystery here. :shrug:

[lars573]

So first they make him look good and then they kill him?

Nah, guess I've heard crazier theories.
Other way round. JFK is a prime example of killing the man, and creating a martyr.