New units on EB2: What are most likely to be included?

[FinnishedBarbarian]

From the previews we have already seen about 10 new units (not present in eb1), what new units we will see when the game is released?

I only managed to figure these: seleucid agema cavalry, pergamene hetaroi/kataphraktoi and ptolemaic/seleucid "imitation legionaries"

Most likely is pergamene hetaroi, seleucid agema cavalry in eb1 was apparently represented by hetaroi so maybe it will stay same. Pergamenes are said to have used cataphract like cavalry, but the use of it might not have been significant enough to justify a unit slot. Imitation legionaries is quite delicate subject because reserchers apparently haven't reached conclusion about the accurate nature of these troops, so I don't put high hopes in seeing roman style hellenic infantry other than thureophoroi and thorakitai.

You can also post units (from eb1) which you suspect will be dropped out due to being historically inaccurate/not significant enough.

PS. of course we can't give names to most of these units but that doesn't prevent us from speculating with what type will they be.

[Brennus]

I can't imagine there will be a great amount of difference between the EB and EBII unit rosters, from what I remember one of the team members stated that although there was an increase in the number of units which can be included in the game its not a massive increase. Although saying that the re-working of the factions may mean that we will see a plethora of new units.

But if I am going to guess I would suspect that British two handed champions will be dropped (I have my doubts as to their accuracy-Delight me by proving me wrong oudysseos!) as will alot of Goidelc units.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I doubt any team member ever said that there was any increase in the theoretical maximum number of units that could be supported in EB2 vs what could be achieved in EB1...

[war is hell]

Thorakites is the greek "imitation legionnaire" afaik.

Also Im pretty sure the Roman Imperial units are going to be removed.

[FinnishedBarbarian]

I doubt any team member ever said that there was any increase in the theoretical maximum number of units that could be supported in EB2 vs what could be achieved in EB1...

So using same base model for multiple units was due to need to save time/effort not because unit slots were near maximum? Using same basic model (for example gaesatae/galatikoi tindonatae) is of course sensible thing to do.

Although it is enough if most of the eb1 units will be included (reskinned/names changed), it would be still be disappointing if units had to be dropped out only due to number of slots.

Brennus do you think that lugioi two-handers will share their british cousins fate? Would be shame to see so unique and useful (as celtic faction you can never have enough armor eating units) unit be dropped out. By goidilic units I assume you mean hammer unit, foot tank and maybe eiras?

[bobbin]

So using same base model for multiple units was due to need to save time/effort not because unit slots were near maximum? Using same basic model (for example gaesatae/galatikoi tindonatae) is of course sensible thing to do.

Model limit is not the same as unit limit. In EB the unit limit was 450 or 500 but the model limit was something like 250, this was why we had to share so much models. In EBII the unit limit is 500 and there is no limit for models (at least no one has found one).

There is going to be a lot of changes to units in EBII although some areas will change less than others.

[Tellos Athenaios]

In EB 1 the unit limit would've been 500, but towards the end there was some sense of a plan to leave slots for an EB 2. In EB 2 the unit limit is 500. There are about 460 entries in the EB 1 EDU.

In both cases the limit arises from the constraints placed on the EDU (500 entries), and not DMB (250 and unknown number of entries respectively).

[paullus]

There are a lot of new units.

[FinnishedBarbarian]

There are a lot of new units.

Yes I have read the previews and they contain a lot of new units (all of them great in their own unique way), I merely made this thread for us fans to discuss about their expectations for eb2's unit roster, so I didn't intend this to be thread to which team members would post new units whenever one is finished.

Good to hear that number of models ain't problem anymore, although it doesn't have huge impact on eb1 it is somewhat stupid that as arverni/aedui you can't recruit some galatian units due to them sharing same base model with for example gaesatae/arjos.

Back to the topic..

Celtiberians will probably receive some new units, cavalry and spear units are something they lack in eb1, but this will likely depent on decisions concerning new factions, if celtiberians won't be one of the new ones and unit slots are close to maximum one might argue that those slots would be better used for playable factions.

Baltic units could be dropped out if historically they weren't used in significant numbers enough by any of the eb2's factions to justify using unit slots, even though they are likely to be more commonly seen now that baltic has more factions near it.

Roman imperial troops are one that could be sacrificed, after all they weren used only 30 years or so during the mods timeframe.

Hopefully nothing has to be dropped out, but being somewhat pessimistic I suspect that some units won't make to the mod due to unit limit. :cry:

[Moros]

Well in Arabia there'll be a lot of changes. Though some might not be that remarkable for people who aren't into Hellenistic Arabia. But there will be some recognisable units as well.

[LusitanianWolf]

:thumbsup:
Well in Arabia there'll be a lot of changes. Though some might not be that remarkable for people who aren't into Hellenistic Arabia. But there will be some recognisable units as well.
Saba was one of the more unique and interesting factions in EB1 and I have great expectations toward them (and anything else) in EB2 :thumbsup:

[Power2the1]

I can say that the Celtic units are all but new in concept. Only 1 or 2 contain (Gallicized) names that harken from EB1. It's a fresh start, basically. Hopefully many of them will be in previews in the future.

[Tanit]

I hope the previews demonstrated how much new thought has gone into the Punic and African units.

[moonburn]

Well in Arabia there'll be a lot of changes. Though some might not be that remarkable for people who aren't into Hellenistic Arabia. But there will be some recognisable units as well.

camel cavalry will drink blood :?

[Populus Romanus]

camel cavalry will drink blood :?

No, but the vampire cavalry will.:vampire:

[bobbin]

Good to hear that number of models ain't problem anymore, although it doesn't have huge impact on eb1 it is somewhat stupid that as arverni/aedui you can't recruit some galatian units due to them sharing same base model with for example gaesatae/arjos.
It means quite a lot when making the units, in EB were constrained by what models were available, this meant that some units were not as accurate representations as they could have been.




Baltic units could be dropped out if historically they weren't used in significant numbers enough by any of the eb2's factions to justify using unit slots, even though they are likely to be more commonly seen now that baltic has more factions near it.
Our Lugiones faction is primarily proto Baltic in nature so the Baltic region has seen a lot of new units, they are quite different from EB's though.



Roman imperial troops are one that could be sacrificed, after all they weren used only 30 years or so during the mods timeframe.
We will only cut them if we have to, and it doesn't look like we will need to right now.


Hopefully nothing has to be dropped out, but being somewhat pessimistic I suspect that some units won't make to the mod due to unit limit. :cry:
Many units have been dropped or changed beyond recognition for historical reasons, the unit limit isn't a concern right now.

[fomalhaut]

Syracusan Hoplites ;_;
:'(
i will miss you, my friends

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Syracusan Hoplites ;_;
:'(
i will miss you, my friends

Why were they dropped out? Not used by syracuse during eb's timeframe or use was limited? Well maybe the syracuse will receive somewhat similar hoplitai unit, also they were somewhat inaccurate compared to the unit description which said they had shortswords as secondaries which they don't have in game, same with all classical hoplites maybe due to problem with secondary weapon?

Concerning the Lugii who are celto-germanic faction with some baltic tribes under their rule, if I understood the preview correctly. This sounds like they will have one of the best factional unit recruitment possibilities, being able to recruit most germanic, celtic and baltic units. This would make them very powerful faction even in eb1.

Palmyra and nabatae had hellenic influenses so that would probably mean some heavier cavalry and infantry units in these provinces, although not expecting anything along the lines of 200 AD clibinarii, also did either them employ pike-phalanxes?

One unit type which doesn't seem to raise any passions is artillery which is somewhat problematic in eb1 due to the high price of ballistae/katapeltai, lowering their prices might be ok if they have extremely limited recruitment. Eb1 seems to portrait them accurately so expecting only cosmetic changes concerning them (more ammunition options).

[Moros]

Palmyra and nabatae had hellenic influenses so that would probably mean some heavier cavalry and infantry units in these provinces, although not expecting anything along the lines of 200 AD clibinarii, also did either them employ pike-phalanxes?

We indeed have a palmyran unit planned and a few more generic northern bedouin units. Some which are based on nabataean and other tribes/nations of the regions. Possibly the best arab cavalry will come from the east though.
On phalanxes: no, no evidence or anything that suggests the use of phalanxes by the factions of that area that don't have hellenistic roots. There was hellenistic and Roman influence in the region, especially in the Hasmonean (see 1QM/1Q33, 4QM from the deadsea scrolls) and Nabatean kingdoms (see Petra) at the very end of our timeframe. But those infantry units were more thureophoroi in style. Most information on Palmyran infantry dates back to a few centuries after our time frame. These seem mainly Roman and Parthian influenced though some typical arab traditions seem to be kept as well, such as small round shields for example.

[fomalhaut]

I'm not 100% on Hoplites of Syracuse, but it seems to be the general idea that since Syracuse won't be a faction and there is no evidence to suggest that the Hoplites of Syracuse would operate in a manner significantly different than regular Hoplitai, so the unit concept as a whole isn't justified. Though i think at least a special skin for Hoplitai from Syracuse would be swell................wink wink wink nudge nudge oh god please i beg you



oh and artillery i hope at least looks better, more like the pretty unit cards at least. are Artillery not allowed to have officers in the EDU? some more distinguished looking dudes, like engineers and officers would look nice compared to literally a pack of peasants moving and operating the most advanced war fighting technology available to my kingdom and the world.

[ziegenpeter]

I'm not 100% on Hoplites of Syracuse, but it seems to be the general idea that since Syracuse won't be a faction and there is no evidence to suggest that the Hoplites of Syracuse would operate in a manner significantly different than regular Hoplitai, so the unit concept as a whole isn't justified. Though i think at least a special skin for Hoplitai from Syracuse would be swell................wink wink wink nudge nudge oh god please i beg you

With that said, also see the Spartans in danger...

[athanaric]

I guess the Sabaean Nobles will be wielding a bow instead of the javelins.
Also, Goidils will probably only have Vellinica-style troops :clown:

[Ca Putt]

oh and artillery i hope at least looks better, more like the pretty unit cards at least. are Artillery not allowed to have officers in the EDU? some more distinguished looking dudes, like engineers and officers would look nice compared to literally a pack of peasants moving and operating the most advanced war fighting technology available to my kingdom and the world. full agree here, even if their outfit isnt explicitly wrong it looks so dreadfully boring and wrong :D a subject that has always bothered me^^

[Phalanx300]

With that said, also see the Spartans in danger...

That would mean any region specific unit would be in danger. No Balearic slingers, seeing they were just slingers. etc.

I hope the region specific units will stay, always added to EB ;).

[bobbin]

Concerning the Lugii who are celto-germanic faction with some baltic tribes under their rule, if I understood the preview correctly.

You got that the wrong way round.

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Also, Goidils will probably only have Vellinica-style troops :clown:

Eiras don't like this :)

[Arjos]

Regional units are one of the many things that makes EB amazing...
No idea which new ones will be included and I love surprises :D

[moonburn]

well if no unit limit then can we expect the return of the corinthian hoplites \o i mean that unit was composed of the famous corinthian bussinessman´s a kind of elite pimp unit :X

[Arjos]

Even though I'd love to see them, and hell even each poleis hoplitai, iirc corinthian were rather regular ones, they sure had ethos, but I mean the classical ones depict them very well imo...
As for those of a later period the Thorakitai version has that covered too...

[fomalhaut]

i think it'd be really swell to showcase at least some of the most famous hoplites as regionals or at least special skins. just 'hoplitai' units from Syracuse to Thebes would just be really bland and not do justice to the variety at least in ethos, shield design culture, etc of the various regional hoplites.

who doesn't love the brave defenders from;

Massilia
Syracusa
Sparta
The Red Sea coast

?


its a way to cheat past the culture and faction limit as well ^_^

[FinnishedBarbarian]

well if no unit limit then can we expect the return of the corinthian hoplites \o i mean that unit was composed of the famous corinthian bussinessman´s a kind of elite pimp unit :X

will they have special ability that causes the opposing troops to succumb to venereal diseases? :)

[Arjos]

its a way to cheat past the culture and faction limit as well ^_^

Oh I really enjoy regional units, my armies never have more than 2 of the same unit...
But for example Thebai Hoplitai would be a fantasy unit in 272 BC onwards...

[fomalhaut]

and so would Carthage's Sacred Band, wouldn't it? if the Sacred Band of Baal could be reinstituted why not then the Band of Thebes? what criteria is used? is there a fear of a slippery slope?


A Koinon Hellenon broken from Macedonian rule would benefit from the symbolic reinstitution of the Band of Thebes. It just requires homosexual couples ready to push Macedonia back to Pella

[Arjos]

mmmmmm let's say I'm for the elimination of the Sacred Band :D
Hoplite warfare was declining/evolving in hellenistic age, even if Thebai was to break free from Makedonian rule they'd use either a phalanx or thorakitai...

[Cyclops]

I'm hoping for Elephant FM's for Mauryan Satraps, but thats a vanishingly small hope. Indian chariots?

Many new units we've already seen are turning out to be smart re-thinks of old ones eg using the armour upgrade/reskins to reflect pre- and post- reform versions of common unit types. I imagine this opens up slots that previously were occupied (eg by the various versions of Keltic spearmen, swordsmen etc) so we may have more unit slots than people might think.

I had a vague notion about using the unique units from the Crusades portion of Kingdoms. Would the AS stormtroopers be a candidate for that? Just the one unit but uber-uber. Might be a way of giving Epiros elephants (which they had) without allowing ele-spam (which unit limits sorta do, except given time they can get around it).

One problem of unique units is getting them home to their AOR to reinforce but there was a cute solution they were looking at over at TATW where a building could be given a refresh rate of .99% so you'd never be able to build a unit there but you could rebuild.

Dunno what the correct structure for that would be. Maybe Roman military colonae could be like that? Not being able to spring new legions but able to refresh battered ones? Getting OT, maybe I should take this idea to suggestions...

[fomalhaut]

mauryan governers do ride elephants, but you mean for the player?

[Ludens]

and so would Carthage's Sacred Band, wouldn't it? if the Sacred Band of Baal could be reinstituted why not then the Band of Thebes? what criteria is used? is there a fear of a slippery slope?

A Koinon Hellenon broken from Macedonian rule would benefit from the symbolic reinstitution of the Band of Thebes.

Not sure if I agree here. For starters, you ignore the parochialism of Greek poleis if you assume that Athens and Sparta would readily authorize and pay for the elite force of another city state. Remember the KH was an alliance of convenience, not a single state. Secondly, Thebes never recovered from the sack by Alexander's men. Don't you think they would have reinstituted the Sacred Band themselves had they been able to? Thirdly, the Qarthadastim preview (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?131488-Preview-The-Qarthadastim) notes that the "Sacred Band" may not have been "sacred" at all. It was simply an elite force of rich citizens, the Carthaginian equivalent of Epilektoi hoplites.

The Corinthian hoplites of EB1 weren't removed; the unit entry was simply changed into the regular hoplite, which wasn't included in EB v0.7.

[fomalhaut]

that's true, it's hard to remember in game terms that the Koinon is sort of shaky and many members wouldn't want to allow what is left of Thebes to recover.

[Cyclops]

mauryan governers do ride elephants, but you mean for the player?

Yeah I have this silly hope we'll get Mauryan Satraps in the far eastern corner, naughtily satraping away on the fringes.