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Brennus
06-01-2011, 13:15
Just something I have been pondering lately but which form of wall are the EBII planning to surround fortified Celtic settlements with? I ask because as the team is no doubt aware there is not a single type of wall which is found throughout the Celtic speaking world. Although I don't claim to know how settlments of the Celtiberians, Galatians and Cisalpine Gauls were fortified here is a quick description of the types found at Celtic sites in the EBII timeframe if people want to debate this further:

Dump Rampart and Ditch: A simple but easy to construct and maintain fortification where the earth surrounding a site is dug out to form a ditch and at the same time thrown up to form a rampart. Distribution: Britain and Ireland, although not across the entire region.

Murus Gallicus: Stone faced wall with internal wooden structure laid out in a grid formation. The internal wooden structure is laid out horizontally and the wooden beams are held together with iron nails with some of the wooden structure being visible protruding the stone facing at the front of the wall. The entire structure is further reinforced with soil which in turn forms a rampart to the rear of the wall. Distribution: Overwhelmingly Gaul.

Ehrang type: Similar to, and predating the Murus Gallicus, this wall is different from the Murus Gallicus in that it lacks iron nails to hold the wooden grid structure together and is has no rear rampart. Distribution: Overwhelmingly Gaul.

Altkonig-Preist: Stone faced wall with vertical wooden supports at the front and back of the wall. Horizontal wooden supports also run from the front of the wall to the back attached to the vertical wooden supports for increased stability. Distribution: Largely East of the Rhine in southern Germany although a few examples exist in Gaul.

Kelheim Type: A development of the above type but with fewer horizontal wooden reinforcements. Instead stability is increased by the inclusion of a rampart to the rear of the wall, thus removing the need for rear wooden reinforcements. Distribution: Same as the above.

Fécamp/Tallus Massif: Similar to British rampart style but with a higher rampart and a shallower but wider ditch. Distribution: Found in two large concentrations; one in Belgium and one in Cnetral Western Gaul but isolated examples do exist in Britain (where they appear to be an improvement on the earlier Dump Rampart style) and in Armorica and Eastern Germany.

The largest fortification which currently surrounds Celtic settlements in EB appears to be of the Altkonig-Preist type although few excations have so far unearthed evidence of Celtic sites incorporating towers into their defenses (In EB however this is due to game limitations rather than a fault on the teams part).

Thus you see the dilemma I have been considering. I also wonder if the MTW2 engine allows the creation of ramparts?

Like with the issue of round and rectalinear Celtic houses I understand that it is impossible to provide each region with the fortification type which was unique to that area.

Sorry if this post appears arrogant, if people like they can bring me down to size by PMing me with questions about Dacians and Germans, of whom I know little.

Arjos
06-01-2011, 13:27
I have no idea how the M2TW engine works, but a solution could be having the rampart and ditch as "tier 1" (with the Pritanoi not able to go any further), and the others going on, but with hidden resources required, which were to be disseminated in the specific regions...
But again I'm no modder :D

On a "humanitarian note" I can settle with just one type, read on twitter that is easy to draw the buildings, but I can already see the huge amount of work needed...

Antinous
06-02-2011, 01:31
The only thing I hope for is that Gallic cities will have two walls for large cities to represent the hill fortesses of Gaul.

Brennus
06-02-2011, 09:12
The only thing I hope for is that Gallic cities will have two walls for large cities to represent the hill fortesses of Gaul.

If by "hill fortresses" you mean the oppida Caesar was describing then they would only have one wall. British hill forts were mutivallate during this period but less so on the continent.

Ca Putt
06-02-2011, 13:18
i sincerely hope so it always sucked siegeing a multiwall settlement in M2TW.

Brennus
06-02-2011, 20:06
I should also add that if the team would like descriptions of different types of Celtic fortification for use in EBII I would be more than happy to oblige.

Cambyses
06-03-2011, 01:16
Ive always thought of the walls in seige battles as a representation of a settlement's defensive qualities. As a literal representation of ancient warfare almost none of the seige battles we fight in RTW or MTW are even remotely accurate. If having inaccurate walls creates a better gameplay experience thats just fine with me. ie multiwalled settlements are seemingly impossible for the AI to attack effectively. Im pretty sure I never lost a seige in M2 when I had a second wall and at least 30% equivalent strength to the attacker.

Paltmull
06-04-2011, 17:16
I have no idea how the M2TW engine works, but a solution could be having the rampart and ditch as "tier 1" (with the Pritanoi not able to go any further), and the others going on, but with hidden resources required, which were to be disseminated in the specific regions...
But again I'm no modder :D


IIRC, in M2TW you upgrade a settlement (from town to large town etc) by upgrading its walls, rather than its government building like in RTW. So I'm afraid your idea won't work. But maybe it's not hardcoded.

Brennus
06-05-2011, 12:03
I do like your idea Arjos. Excavations have shown simple palisaded walls were succeeded by ditch and fill ramparts which were in turn replaced by Fécamp style fortifications which were in turn succeeded by Ehrang and then Murus Gallicus type walls (no single site exists to show this but this pattern did occur in both Britain and Gaul). Like Paltmull pointed out though this may be prevented by M2TW coding. Although saying that British oppida did continue to develop independently after the EBII timeframe ends so they could have developed stone walls, the Dacians certainly did some time before they were conquered by Rome. Also stone walls did exist in Scotland (admittedly not of the same construction as the Gallic ones) at hillforts so representing stone walls in southern Britain would not be entirely innaccurate.

Arjos
06-05-2011, 17:33
Damn forgot that, if that can't be separated, maybe working with the ballista/cannon towers, seems pretty hard...
I liked keeping some cities without stone walls :S

Ca Putt
06-05-2011, 19:35
is it really tied that hard to leveling up, sure the Campaign map models reffer to the "main buiding" only. I mean when you attack a settlement does it "ask" the code: "whats your settlement level "whats the level of your "wall" trait(in the building card the wall afterall has a trait that could be reffered to)"

on second thought that might be thinking waaaay to positve there, afterall implementing it that way would sound like "leaving the back door open".

Brennus
06-07-2011, 18:49
Has anyone read Ian Ralston's "Celtic Fortifications"? I am going to read that next once I have finished Fichtl's "Le Ville Celtique" and I should be able to add Celtiberian and possbly Cisapline Gallic fortification details to this thread.

bobbin
06-08-2011, 00:18
IIRC the settlement upgrade building can be changed, so the walls can be used like normal buildings.

Paltmull
06-15-2011, 14:33
IIRC the settlement upgrade building can be changed, so the walls can be used like normal buildings.

Yay!

Brennus
06-15-2011, 17:10
Is it possible to restrict certain wall types to different Celtic groups? eg. Allow Averni and Aedui to construct the Murus Gallicus type (and if possible the Boii the Altkonig-Preist type) whilst retrict the Pritanoi (and hopefully Belgae) to the Tallus Massif/Fécamp type?

Hax
06-21-2011, 00:57
Is it possible to restrict certain wall types to different Celtic groups? eg. Allow Averni and Aedui to construct the Murus Gallicus type (and if possible the Boii the Altkonig-Preist type) whilst retrict the Pritanoi (and hopefully Belgae) to the Tallus Massif/Fécamp type?

I think so, but I'm not entirely sure. Don't know if it's been tested.

Brennus
07-06-2011, 00:48
Well if the Ehrang type were to be used for the Celtic factions you could kill two birds with one stone as the Murus Dacius is very similar in external appearance.

Does anyone know if it is possible to make multivallate fortifications in the M2TW engine?

Ibrahim
07-06-2011, 02:25
Well if the Ehrang type were to be used for the Celtic factions you could kill two birds with one stone as the Murus Dacius is very similar in external appearance.

Does anyone know if it is possible to make multivallate fortifications in the M2TW engine?

IIRC, multivallate walls were in one BI mod (IIRC IBRR), so I don't see the difficulty in including them in M2TW. unless things have changed there?

bobbin
07-08-2011, 11:50
Well if the Ehrang type were to be used for the Celtic factions you could kill two birds with one stone as the Murus Dacius is very similar in external appearance.

Does anyone know if it is possible to make multivallate fortifications in the M2TW engine?

Yes it is.

Brennus
07-13-2011, 23:31
Yes it is.

Sweet.