German E. Coli Outbreak

[Fisherking]

Dose anyone find it odd that the first known hemorrhagic E. Coli outbreak seems to be a recombinant form of two E. Coli strains, one from central Africa?

As European farmers are not in the habit of importing Central African cow flops for fertilizer how would it show up?

That it has shown up as a particularly virulent strain which is highly drug resistant also raises questions.

Bacteria may mutate but normally they need to be in the same proximity to do so.

The illness has not been traced to a source. Not a single source, but a source.

Could it have been broadcast some how?

These bacterium are the microbial equivalent of lab rats.

Is this like the anthrax outbreak in the US in 2001?

Could it be the same people?

Dose anyone else find this sort of thing a bit suspicious?

[Samurai Waki]

Too early to tell, but those are definitely questions that need answers; of which I'm sure someone in Germany/EU/NATO is trying to figure out, just don't want to cause a panic if it turns out to be something more benign.

[Fragony]

Few deaths among hundreds of sick not that bad

[Cute Wolf]

a secret nazi bio-weapon stash is exposed accidentally maybe?

[Don Corleone]

I agree with Fisherking's line of questioning in the OP. This seems too well designed a bacteria to be a random mutation. I guess Iran is taking full advantage of the distractions in Libya, Yemen & Syria.

[gaelic cowboy]

But if you dont tell people you did wat use is it???? if you ask me nature is well capable of designing perfect diseases itself.

[Tellos Athenaios]

This. Until we know otherwise I'd assume that a few African E coli got a lift to Germany and mutated in their new hosts.

[Fragony]

I agree with Fisherking's line of questioning in the OP. This seems too well designed a bacteria to be a random mutation. I guess Iran is taking full advantage of the distractions in Libya, Yemen & Syria.

How much do you know about bacteria to come to that conclusion, not that it isn't possible but please can we get beyond the 'jews poisened the wells'. There is evidence where? And for what really, normal flue kills thousands each year every time

[Don Corleone]

Fair point, I lack sufficient evidence to say Iran specifically, but it does appear to me to be a designed biological agent:

1) It's a mutated form of an E.Coli bacteria that's not found in Central Europe normally.
2) It specifically mutated in ways that made it resistant to most known anti-bacterial agents, even though anti-bacterial agents are nowhere near as prevalent in Africa as they are in Central Africa, from which this strain originated (seems odd that a bug would genetically select resistance to a threat it hadn't seen before)
3) By all accounts, it appears to be a particularly virulent strain, and spreading fast.

As for why nobody's taken credit, wouldn't they want to wait until it's actually gotten a little bit widespread... give the bug a headstart on the CDC (or whatever that would be in Europe).

I mentioned Iran specifically, because they possess the biotech industry necessary for making designer bacteria and if I remember correctly, they made a threat along these lines back in 2004/2005 (I need to go do my homework and find the citation for that).

[gaelic cowboy]

Fair point, I lack sufficient evidence to say Iran specifically, but it does appear to me to be a designed biological agent:

1) It's a mutated form of an E.Coli bacteria that's not found in Central Europe normally.
2) It specifically mutated in ways that made it resistant to most known anti-bacterial agents, even though anti-bacterial agents are nowhere near as prevalent in Africa as they are in Central Africa, from which this strain originated (seems odd that a bug would genetically select resistance to a threat it hadn't seen before)
3) By all accounts, it appears to be a particularly virulent strain, and spreading fast.

As for why nobody's taken credit, wouldn't they want to wait until it's actually gotten a little bit widespread... give the bug a headstart on the CDC (or whatever that would be in Europe).

I mentioned Iran specifically, because they possess the biotech industry necessary for making designer bacteria and if I remember correctly, they made a threat along these lines back in 2004/2005 (I need to go do my homework and find the citation for that).

1: Todays interconnected world renders such ideas mute Aids came from Africa now it's worldwide and is so well designed they aint found a cure yet.

2: Many bugs have evolved lately to be resistant to drugs like MRSA etc etc

Until I hear otherwise I will be keeping my tinfoil hat safely in the cupboard.

[Fragony]

@Don Corleone, we can wipe out everything arab allready, their death ist's just a choice we can make allready, Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft .

[gaelic cowboy]

@Don Corleone, we can wipe out everything arab allready, their death ist's just a choice we can make allready, Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft .

What does that even mean??????

Stop press world not ending Rate of E coli infection has fallen (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0604/ecoli.html)

[Ronin]

Fair point, I lack sufficient evidence to say Iran specifically, but it does appear to me to be a designed biological agent:

1) It's a mutated form of an E.Coli bacteria that's not found in Central Europe normally.
2) It specifically mutated in ways that made it resistant to most known anti-bacterial agents, even though anti-bacterial agents are nowhere near as prevalent in Africa as they are in Central Africa, from which this strain originated (seems odd that a bug would genetically select resistance to a threat it hadn't seen before)
3) By all accounts, it appears to be a particularly virulent strain, and spreading fast.

As for why nobody's taken credit, wouldn't they want to wait until it's actually gotten a little bit widespread... give the bug a headstart on the CDC (or whatever that would be in Europe).

I mentioned Iran specifically, because they possess the biotech industry necessary for making designer bacteria and if I remember correctly, they made a threat along these lines back in 2004/2005 (I need to go do my homework and find the citation for that).

if this were a custom biological agent why go for something with such a limited transmission means?
there are lots of other choices that would do a lot more damage and are air or person to person transmissible..

[gaelic cowboy]

if this were a custom biological agent why go for something with such a limited transmission means?
there are lots of other choices that would do a lot more damage and are air or person to person transmissible..

I'm guessing it's maybe connected to a water supply somewhere, it would make sense the person would end up infecting the food by washing it and even if its cooked the bug is all over there hands.

[Hax]

I guess Iran is taking full advantage of the distractions in Libya, Yemen & Syria.

Well..Ahmadinejad has had some other concerns recently.

[Fisherking]

Gentlemen, E. Coli is a gut bacteria found in all warm blooded animals.

As a contaminant it is a fecal form usually contaminating a substance by the use of raw animal fertilize.

But it is not from Germen crops. They have not found how it was spread or any produce it came from.

30% of those contracting this strain suffer from kidney failure. The normal rate for bad E. Coli infections is around 1%. Typically these are in the very young and very old, but not so in this case. This outbreak seems to be affecting mostly otherwise healthy adults. It also manufactures at least two different toxins making it even more difficult to treat.

These are the organisms that one would work with in a sort of ‘Gene Splicing 101’.

The verbiage of calling it recombinant is also significant. Call it a code word for outside manipulation, if you will.

It is hard to say, only 18 people have died. 18 people have died but ICU beds in hospitals in the north of Germany are full. It is a critical situation.

Someone needs to look at labs known to be working with this strain and see what they have done.

I don’t know how or why this happened but the natural mutation explanation just does not wash.

[Fragony]

What does that even mean??????

Stop press world not ending Rate of E coli infection has fallen (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0604/ecoli.html)

Means keyboard faillure it sometimes does that, it changes the layout

[Strike For The South]

Cook your ground beef, sear your steaks

[Ser Clegane]

But it is not from Germen crops. They have not found how it was spread or any produce it came from.
That they have not found the source does not mean that German crops cannot be the source. I read statements from the RKI (Rober Koch Institutes) that in many cases of these outbreaks the source could never be identified.

I don't know how or why this happened but the natural mutation explanation just does not wash.
In times of global exchange of goods it should not be that surpirsing to see such a case ocurring naturally. Lots of ways that this can happen - not necessarily involving the import of cow dung from Africa or anything "man-made".

[Louis VI the Fat]

I, for one, blame freak food, ultra-capitalism, retreating governments, Big Food and Big Pharma. We need closer inspection and more regulation of what goes in in every step of our food chain.


please can we get beyond the 'jews poisened the wells'. Awesome. I guess in the olden days now would be the time to burn some Jews in places that have been affected. And to pogrom them in places that haven't just to be safe rather than sorry.

This being the 21st century, I suggest we burn Hax at the stake.

[gaelic cowboy]

I, for one, blame freak food, ultra-capitalism, retreating governments, Big Food and Big Pharma. We need closer inspection and more regulation of what goes in in every step of our food chain.

Sounds great till you remember that coliforms live naturally in humans and it can often be your own fault for simply not washing your hands.

My ten euro with paddy power is staying on the water somewhere being infected, it could easily have been transferred to the restaurant being mentioned lately in the news by a customer before they ever felt sick.

[gaelic cowboy]

Ah well there goes my ten euro German Beansprouts 'Behind E.coli Outbreak' (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Ecoli-Outbreak-German-Beansprouts-Are-The-Likely-Cause-Of-Ecoli-Outbreak/Article/201106116005965?lpos=World_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_16005965_E.coli_Outbreak:_German_Beansprouts_Are_The_Likely_Cause_Of_E.coli_Outbreak)

Course it could turn out to be another dead end like the Spanish cucumber craic.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Looks like it's a bad batch of kraut sprouts (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/05/europe.e.coli/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn). See what ya get for trying to eat healthy.:sweatdrop:

[gaelic cowboy]

Bean sprouts might be responsible for bacteria: officials (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iybgYO9KRE5PGKRe1WtnS9nnfnbg?docId=CNG.066f3d956c6f46179c88b9c7f2317b07.391)

interestingly if you read this from AFP near the bottom there sort of hinting it may be due to the proliferation of biogas and manure digesters on farms today.

If thats true it's the ultimate irony that a country obsessed with renewable energy and it's safety may have inadvertantly killed people in the rush to develop supposedly clean safe energy.

[HoreTore]

The backroom never disappoints when it comes to whacky conspiracies.

I'm sorry, but this being a terrorist action has to be one of the whackiest theories I have heard in my life, on par with the truthers or birthers. Sorry Don C.

I'll only adress one of the gaping flows though: that of an african bacteria having trouble getting to Europe. Globalization and the Free Market wants to have a chat with you, Don C...

[rory_20_uk]

Bacteria will take in even bare DNA from the environment. They are constantly swopping and changing. Coupled to this, we only know a tiny fraction of all the different types out there. Other virulent strains came out of nowhere without the need for Iran-Mossad-Mafia-CIA conspiracy.

Where it came from I've no idea. But as a ploy to drag the developed world to its knees cucumbers is a very random of doing it.

Or is that we are supposed to think...? I need to get my tinfoil hat.

~:smoking:

[Hax]

Awesome. I guess in the olden days now would be the time to burn some Jews in places that have been affected. And to pogrom them in places that haven't just to be safe rather than sorry.

This being the 21st century, I suggest we burn Hax at the stake.

Well, at least it'll burn the bacteria out of me.

[Fisherking]

Sorry, if it was on bean sprouts it didn’t get there from fertilizer.

The primary host for the original, unmutated /unmodified strain were goats.

It was only known in the some of the remoter areas of Central African Republic and it was no great threat.

To understand the difficulty of it showing up as it did have a look at the Central African Republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic

It is not a hub of world trade and goat dung is not a going trade item. Nor are Africian Cattle, a secondary host.

Its largest European trading partners are France from whom it exports 13.6% of trade, and Belgium from whom it imports 9.8% of its goods.

It is not a food exporter. Though food stuffs are the staple of the economy, it is locally consumed.

It is not a tourist destination.

While you may explain away an exotic contagion from travelers, it is a very different matter when it shows up in fresh salads in a country that has no links to the contaminant.

This is not so easily explained. Rather, the explanation is more for the simple.

It needs a much better explanation than what we are getting.

[Samurai Waki]

Who handled the crop? Is it possible that one of the farmhands came from somewhere in Central Africa? That is a possibilities as well, our own E. Coli outbreaks often start from migrant workers, and poor working conditions.

[gaelic cowboy]

Sorry, if it was on bean sprouts it didn’t get there from fertilizer.

Wny not? have you ever grown anything like in your back garden, this spring/early summer has been fairly dry and slurry spread on the land could well hold coliforms in it.


The primary host for the original, unmutated/unmodified strain were goats.

It was only known in the some of the remoter areas of Central African Republic and it was no great threat.

Means nothing the primary host for many disease is a another animal, but it still does not stop it jumping the species barrier.


To understand the difficulty of it showing up as it did have a look at the Central African Republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic

It is not a hub of world trade and goat dung is not a going trade item. Nor are Africian Cattle, a secondary host.

Its largest European trading partners are France from whom it exports 13.6% of trade, and Belgium from whom it imports 9.8% of its goods.

It is not a food exporter. Though food stuffs are the staple of the economy, it is locally consumed.

It is not a tourist destination.

While you may explain away an exotic contagion from travelers, it is a very different matter when it shows up in fresh salads in a country that has no links to the contaminant.

None of this is relevant in the slightest, Aids probably came from some small monkey at a time when we didnt do much trade with the Congo region either yet it still got out. The fact is this could easy travel from the C.A.R. with no symptoms by a traveller or through a myraid other reasons, but I bet you a pound to a penny that this could easy have developed quite happily in Germany as travel from the C.A.R.


This is not so easily explained. Rather, the explanation is more for the simple.

It needs a much better explanation than what we are getting.

The simple explantion is that E-Coli in it's many forms is what know as Zoonotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonoses#Partial_list_of_zoonoses) when we were young there was an outbreak of orf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orf_(disease)) and the vet was not long in telling us to be careful with it and crucially it could survive in soil increasing reinfection chances just like e-coli can.

With E-coli there is a million reasons it could be in Germany and yes your right it COULD be a terrorist attack but the likelyhood of using a disease that can be fought by just washing your hands suggests were safe enough claiming natural sources for this.

[Fragony]

It's the tauge apparently, official statement later today

[Strike For The South]

Deny Probable Explanation

Blame Muslims

??????

Profit

[Fisherking]

@ gaelic cowboy

Yes, I do know about growing things and farming, and a few other things.

I speculated that it could have been like the anthrax attack, where we never got any answers. As opposed to a terror attack. In the end, it was traced to US Army stocks and then the story went away. Those accused were let go quietly. You can assume the investigation is on going...10 years later...

If it were terrorists there would be 50 different groups taking credit for it. I am surprised no one said they were behind it, regardless of facts, but anyway...

They are speculating that the beans may have come from abroad.

It is unlikely but possible but also requires that they were served unwashed.

We are still talking about a surface contaminant, after all. It gets onto the food, not in it.

It also means that the source is a seed supplier which means perhaps it should have been more wide spread. They should also have taken precautions.

There are going to be some greenhouse operations out of business though. It will cost more than they are worth to clean them to anything like a safe level.

Provided they just don’t end it here. There should be soil samples that prove it as well as the beans carrying the germs and an explanation as to where they came from.

It is too great a risk just to have the story to go away because they found a source, or someone to blame.

Blame doesn’t fix a problem.

[Fisherking]

After an exuberant assault on the sprout farm, they seem to be coming up empty.

There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that it came from there.

I understand they have some sprouts in a baggy they found some where in a fridge, they are testing those.

I don’t know what it will mean if those show up as positive and no others do.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I don't know what it will mean if those show up as positive and no others do.

Aliens, quite clearly. Those crop circles didn't infect themselves, you know. :wink:

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don't understand. The US has at least one major bacteria outbreak in its food every year (remember the deadly spinach) and everyone just sits around and goes..."oh yeah, it's all the hispanic workers that don't follow health codes."

But when it happens in Germany? Can't be migrant workers coming from Turkey or North Africa, some terrorists have been playing science.

[Papewaio]

Occam's razor

A strain of deadly E Coli that is resistant to washing ie it's more sticky. That it doesn't easily wash off and is in larger doses makes it more deadly to those with the 'incorrect' immune system. So it's Russian roulette with a .22 revolver with 2 bullets instead of 1.

Now if you are going to make a terrorist weapon are you going to:
a) Rely on something that could be washed off by more thorough washing (most sprouts get a light rinse so my assumption it is across multiple vegies and just highlighted in the sprouts).
&
b) A weapon that attacks the mighty vegans. A group known to be highly energised and violent.

Might as well be fricken sharks with lasers on their head.

People want to call it a weapon because in the West we are getting more and more distanced from both our food resources and epidemics that are fatal.

It would be interesting if it turns out the biogas fermentation was the site of the creation of these bugs. It might finally get people to do a true cost of energy resources and understand that the real bogey is bogies not nuclear.

Anyhow my bet it was either by nature or accidental fermentation so to speak, and was spread by lax cleaning. I do think the Spanish deserve an apology.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Deny Probable Explanation

Blame Muslims

??????

ProfitDude, this is Europe. You can skip step 3. Like so:




'Deny Probable Explanation

Blame Muslims



Profit'

[Fisherking]

Here is a link to an article written on genetic finding for this particular strain:

http://www.naturalnews.com/032622_ecoli_bioengineering.html

It dose show signs of being created and whether the release was intentional or accidental remains to be seen.

I don’t subscribe to all of the authors conclusions but it is food for thought.

[Shibumi]

Deny Probable Explanation

Blame Muslims

??????

Profit

There is some truth in this. Well, if you stretch "truth" to - "this might lead you to the right general thinking", thus again showing the brilliance of the blind hen or broken watch.

I would rather state it more along the lines of:

- Bacteria are wickedly good at adapting.
- Globalization.
- Stuff like this happens from time to time.
- Mass media actually get money when people buy/watch their stuff.

If you look at history we have had WAY worse. Most recent case I believe was simultaneously with WW1, and we still have no idea what that disease was, or if it can hit us again.

Oh, and one of the worst plagues were not a plague at all. And the old history book theory of rats spreading that particular one does not ring true with todays scientific methods. That plague was aerosol and wiped out half the western world. Let us hope that will not happen now.


A scary note: I think we were better prepared for something like that during the medieval times than now. Civilization now seem more brittle somehow. We are relying way more on advanced infrastructure and advanced agriculture - if that breaks we can not just pick up like they could back then.

Thoughts?

[Hax]

The Spanish flu, huh? Should we blame the Spaniards then?

[Fisherking]

The Spanish flu, huh? Should we blame the Spaniards then?

Well, I think they traced the start of it to an army post in Kansas.

I guess the Kansas Flu just doesn’t have that ring to it.

[TheLastDays]

The army flu?

Seriously it's all panic and mass media... like the swine flu... how many died from that? Way less than the casualties "normal" flu takes every year...

[Fisherking]

The army flu?

Seriously it's all panic and mass media... like the swine flu... how many died from that? Way less than the casualties "normal" flu takes every year...

No, you are wrong. The Pandemic killed more people than WWI.

Estimates run as high as 40 million.

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

[Kralizec]

That's true, but subsequent flu epidemics weren't remotely as lethal as the spanish flu that occurred right after WW1.

All of the recent flu pandemics weren't much to write home about, in hindsight.

[Husar]

Well, one could also claim that if the mass media didn't warn people about all these illnesses and didn't tell people what to do to avoid them, maybe some of them would kill a lot more people than they actually did.
That's a big "what if" scenario but you never know what it's good for. Which is not to say that I approve of the big "killer virus!!!!11" headlines the yellow press likes to use.

[TheLastDays]

No, you are wrong. The Pandemic killed more people than WWI.

Estimates run as high as 40 million.

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

You obviously misunderstood my post. I wasn't talking about the pandemic of 1918 but about the swine flu panic we had recently...

[Fragony]

Cure supposedly found

[Papewaio]

Here is a link to an article written on genetic finding for this particular strain:

http://www.naturalnews.com/032622_ecoli_bioengineering.html

It dose show signs of being created and whether the release was intentional or accidental remains to be seen.

I don’t subscribe to all of the authors conclusions but it is food for thought.

That site is a little bit on the extreme side, might as well be a PETA site doing a how to cook steak blog or FOX NEWS on how they are right and right.

Golden Staph and several other bugs have became immune to various treatments. Evolution means that if the pressure is in the environment and that does not eradicate all of a species then the survivors general are better adapted as a population (may initially be far less of them).

Since it is looking like a broad spectrum of antibiotic resistance, the best place to create that is in livestock. So I'd switch my focus on looking for a meat vector and look at how the restaurants are plating up. All it would take is vegies to share the same area or tools as the raw meat. This is probably a lot easier if it is resistant to being washed in the first place. Someone carves up the meat, then lightly rinses the blade under a tap, next kitchen had chops up a cucumber. The sprouts get tossed in a bowl that had mince in it.

End of the day it is likely to be found to be poor hygiene standards along with a bug that has been created by over use of antibiotics.

[Fisherking]

@ TheLastDays Okay, I would agree then.



That site is a little bit on the extreme side, might as well be a PETA site doing a how to cook steak blog or FOX NEWS on how they are right and right.

Golden Staph and several other bugs have became immune to various treatments. Evolution means that if the pressure is in the environment and that does not eradicate all of a species then the survivors general are better adapted as a population (may initially be far less of them).

Since it is looking like a broad spectrum of antibiotic resistance, the best place to create that is in livestock. So I'd switch my focus on looking for a meat vector and look at how the restaurants are plating up. All it would take is vegies to share the same area or tools as the raw meat. This is probably a lot easier if it is resistant to being washed in the first place. Someone carves up the meat, then lightly rinses the blade under a tap, next kitchen had chops up a cucumber. The sprouts get tossed in a bowl that had mince in it.

End of the day it is likely to be found to be poor hygiene standards along with a bug that has been created by over use of antibiotics.

It is not one restaurant or chain that is behind the outbreak.

I would agree that were it meat, the bug would be easier to explain away but that is not where they are looking.

I also doubt that it is a hygiene issue. German food safety and hygiene standards are some of the toughest in the world. This is not Tijuana or even Tijuana Taco.

They have gone back to look at cucumbers again.

As I said I don’t subscribe to his conclusions but the data speaks loads.

Most resistant bacteria outbreaks have started in hospitals. Nothing I know of has ever shown up that was immune to all classes of antibiotics.

Threat both of those toxic genes showed up in the same organism is also a big deal and should be raising red flags at once.

This thing came from a lab. If it had been an ongoing problem I might feel differently. It just packs too big a punch for all those elements to combine and splice themselves together.

How it got out and how it is spread is another issue.

We will just have to wait and see.

[Fisherking]

Well, the latest news said they found them on the sprouts in the baggy in the fridge.

Everything else was clean. How could they grow them and not have any contaminants anywhere else except on those in the fridge?

It raises more questions than answers, for me.

[Motep]

Deny Probable Explanation

Blame Muslims

??????

Profit

Just remarking on how the world followed suit.

[Fisherking]

It seems I was wrong. It was not the sprouts from the fridge.

They got these sprouts from a dumpster. The family that had them ate them and said they got sick and through them out.

I don’t think they have come down with the illness yet though. I guess it has a 10 day incubation time.

[Papewaio]

It was just a matter of time before more superbugs were created. We've accidentally created great environments in both ICU wards and farms.

1) Hospitals very effectively kill off non resistant bugs, leaving the more resistant ones. New set of drugs are used, new set of resistances. Doesn't help that often the process is one step at a time, so try antibiotic A, nope doesn't work, now antibiotic B. Great it works. Except when the bug isn't completely wiped out and you know have resistance to A+B. This process leads on and on until you have bugs that are resistant to most if not all antibiotics. My take on it, is sometimes it would be better not to use any antibiotics and let the non-resistant bugs move in and out compete the resistant ones, then carpet bomb the non resistant ones later.

B) Farms. Two main scenarios, antibiotics not used to completion or the antibiotics all the time. Problem with using antibiotics all the time, you are guaranteed to create in the long term a population of resistant bugs.

So take highly resistant bugs in the manure for vegies, add in a gene for stickness and wham you have an epidemic anywhere a salad or mushrooms are not thoroughly cleaned.

My assumption is that this is still a natural process. That if anything the resistant bugs have been around for awhile and that they've recently picked up the stickness factor making them bypass anything that is thoroughly cleaned or cooked. Which can happen in any busy kitchen. Difference being that instead of mild flu, these ones are quite toxic.

These outbreaks have been happening through history. For a while we had antibiotics that worked, with overuse/abuse we've trained up the bugs to bypass them.

I'd legislate that antibiotics can only be administered to animals in controlled amounts by vets.

On a personal level, I'd roast all my vegies and mushrooms until the authourites have a handle on this.

[Shibumi]

It was just a matter of time before more superbugs were created. We've accidentally created great environments in both ICU wards and farms.

1) Hospitals very effectively kill off non resistant bugs, leaving the more resistant ones. New set of drugs are used, new set of resistances. Doesn't help that often the process is one step at a time, so try antibiotic A, nope doesn't work, now antibiotic B. Great it works. Except when the bug isn't completely wiped out and you know have resistance to A+B. This process leads on and on until you have bugs that are resistant to most if not all antibiotics. My take on it, is sometimes it would be better not to use any antibiotics and let the non-resistant bugs move in and out compete the resistant ones, then carpet bomb the non resistant ones later.

B) Farms. Two main scenarios, antibiotics not used to completion or the antibiotics all the time. Problem with using antibiotics all the time, you are guaranteed to create in the long term a population of resistant bugs.

So take highly resistant bugs in the manure for vegies, add in a gene for stickness and wham you have an epidemic anywhere a salad or mushrooms are not thoroughly cleaned.

My assumption is that this is still a natural process. That if anything the resistant bugs have been around for awhile and that they've recently picked up the stickness factor making them bypass anything that is thoroughly cleaned or cooked. Which can happen in any busy kitchen. Difference being that instead of mild flu, these ones are quite toxic.

These outbreaks have been happening through history. For a while we had antibiotics that worked, with overuse/abuse we've trained up the bugs to bypass them.

I'd legislate that antibiotics can only be administered to animals in controlled amounts by vets.

On a personal level, I'd roast all my vegies and mushrooms until the authourites have a handle on this.

Yepp.

Bacteria has been surviving a slight tad longer than us, to put it mildly and in an universal perspective. This life form seem to grow strength from assaults, thus the best we can do is to reach some sort of a stalemate.

With that said, mother nature might still outclever us. If we have a Gaia perspective, we are the virus, Gaia is just fighting back.

I am just joking, of course. The answer is found in prayers to God QAlmighty.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The time bacteria have been on Earth has nothing to do with how able they are to withstand attacks. Their generational refresh rate is orders of magnitude faster then us. That is all. The evolutionary process works faster on them then we can make new drugs. If a brand new antibiotic was made every single year that could kill all the bad bacteria we would never have a problem.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The time bacteria have been on Earth has nothing to do with how able they are to withstand attacks. Their generational refresh rate is orders of magnitude faster then us. That is all. The evolutionary process works faster on them then we can make new drugs. If a brand new antibiotic was made every single year that could kill all the bad bacteria we would never have a problem.

We would have. The bad bacteria are also the recycle feature of the ecosystem, so we'd have a huge problem dealing with a lot of waste that is no longer biodegradable (or degrades far to slowly). Additionally we'd probably have a fair few problems with various digestive systems: antibiotics kill us as much as they kill our killers.

[Fragony]

Just remarking on how the world followed suit.

It did? where

[Strike For The South]

So how many muslims can we still round up?

[Adrian II]

These bacterium are the microbial equivalent of lab rats.

No, the human and bovine intestine are the most probable labs. E. coli settles and breeds in the gut of man and cattle. Their manure can contaminate seeds and beans and convey the bacteria to any spot around the world where these are grown and/or consumed. Mother nature is a serial killer, something we tend to forget in an age that diefies nature and its supposed harmoniousness.

AII

P.S. Papewaio is right, evolution is the key to everything we know and experience in this life, including disease

[gaelic cowboy]

So how many muslims can we still round up?


http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/30567/

[Adrian II]

So how many muslims can we still round up?

All of Egypt (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13973002), bar Copts and such. That good enough for you?

[Strike For The South]

Getting smart,

Infect some seeds with a dieasease which can still be killed if they are steamed properly

Wait 2 years

Kill 48 Germans

The Soviets would be envious