Morality of the ancient world

[anaxagoras]

Greetings,

I have been playing the EB for RTW for quite some time, and for the most part, its changes to the vanilla game are excellent. I love the attention to detail and the filling out of historical information that I might otherwise not know. Really, there are too many improvements to name here.

But to get to the point, as much as I have enjoyed the EB mod, one thing has always struck me, and I thought I might finally bring it up here: character traits sometimes seem anachronistic, i.e. the moral traits of faction characters sometimes belong to the 21st century, and not to the 3rd or 2nd century BC.

For example:

https://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l613/megalopsuche/liar.png

In the original vanilla game, this sort of trait was explained with something like, "while some might believe it is important to always tell the truth, this man sees the bigger picture," and it would give an influence boost. In this way, the vanilla game actually seems closer to representing classical morality than the EB mod. One need look no further than Plato to find a defense of the necessity of lying to the masses for the sake of public order. Or, as another example, "selfishness" is a negative character trait in EB. But just look at Aristotle's megalopsuchos: "Greatness of soul seems to belong to the sort of person that thinks himself, and is, worthy of great things..."(Oxford edition of the Nichomachean ethics, p.148) More examples of anachronistic character traits can be found, but I will not go through my laundry list here (too boring).

In any case, I will remain a fan of the EB mod, and I hope to play EB II when it is released for MTW, but I hope that some attention will be paid to the differences between contemporary judeo-christian morality and the morality that predominated the ancient world.

Thanks!

[Julianus]

I think there is a big difference between being a (good) liar and being known as a liar, so maybe EB and vanilla just take different approaches, the same goes for being selfish and being regarded as selfish.

[Lysimachos]

The Liar trait marks a character as someone who is known to be a notorious liar. It hasn't anything to do with morality, really, people just don't trust him, because they don't know if he's telling the truth or just making something up.

Concerning selfishness, that may be a prerequisite to achieving great things for yourself, but it won't make anybody go: He's so full of himself, what a cool guy! Just like the Liar trait it's not about morality. If you are dealing with someone, who as you know will always go for his own advantage, it is the reasonable thing to be careful, because a selfish man is more likely to try and overreach you.

[Ludens]

Or, as another example, "selfishness" is a negative character trait in EB. But just look at Aristotle's megalopsuchos: "Greatness of soul seems to belong to the sort of person that thinks himself, and is, worthy of great things..."(Oxford edition of the Nichomachean ethics, p.148) More examples of anachronistic character traits can be found, but I will not go through my laundry list here (too boring).

Hello anaxagoras, welcome to the .Org and to EB ~:wave:. Good first post!

I agree with your main statement, that classical morality was rather different from our own, but I am not so sure about the examples. Plato argued that the rulers should, under certain conditions, lie to their subjects, but that doesn't mean the Greeks were more tolerant of liars than we are. Lying itself wasn't considered a virtue. A competent liar knows when he can get away with it, but I'd say that would be covered by the political-proficiency line of traits.

As for selfishness, Aristotle argues that faith in oneself is important, but that's not the same thing as selfishness. It's the difference between how you think about yourself; and how you treat others.

[fomalhaut]

I thought about relativistic morality and i think it's pretty good here in EB, there are a few traits that don't make sense or are unfairly one sided. I think pedantic is a purely negative trait, but why not a +1 management with that -1 influence? stuff like that.

The golden mean is usually what is wanted in the traits, though not for everyone because that makes for a boring family and role playing.

[lonewolf371]

Wasn't much of Octavian's propaganda upon taking the throne done in order to promote himself as unselfish? After Caesar's much more blatant attempts to gain power, Octavian attempted to paint himself as an individual that the Republic had called upon and that he'd been forced to take up his responsibilities. It seems like the open selfishness of Caesar and the feigned unselfishness of Octavian may have been perceived as a difference of virtue even in ancient times by the Romans, despite at heart Octavian being just as ruthless (if not more).