Wrath of the Khan 2: RECRUITMENT and rules discussion

[phonicsmonkey]

hey all, it's time to get very, VERY excited as the monkey returns with another blockbuster hotseat campaign for the ages!

You may be aware that back in the day we did a Mongols vs the world game as an extension to Commanders of the Faithful. It was a game in Broken Crescent 1.05, was called Wrath of the Khan (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?121162-Broken-Crescent-Hotseat-Wrath-of-the-Khan) and was enormous fun for the five players involved.

Well, now I'm planning a sequel: more players, better balanced and on a bigger scale all round.

Wrath of the Khan 2 will be played in Stainless Steel 6.4 and I will play the Mongols against all comers.

I have skipped the campaign forward to the first turn of the Mongol invasion and I intend to allocate the non-Mongol factions by lot. When I have a quorum of players I'll post a few alternative starting positions and we can vote on which one to use.

Here are my proposed victory conditions for the Mongols:
- The Mongols must take 40 provinces and must sack or occupy three of the following cities: Jerusalem, Baghdad, Moscow and Constantinople.

Here are my proposed victory conditions for the non-Mongol factions:
- Outlast the Mongols and take 15 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players.
OR
- Take 30 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players before the Mongols win the game.

The reason for the dual-condition for non-Mongol factions is to create an incentive for treachery and prevent the game from becoming a predictable anti-Mongol slog.

I suggest that we have the following rules:
Each player has 48 hours to complete his turn (not counting weekends). After that the Admin may skip his faction or he can be subbed by an ally. Extensions will be granted on reasonable request.

Do not attack ships in ports.

Armies boarding ships in ports can't stay there for more than one turn.

Don't leave blockaded ports without beating the blockading ships first.

Don't stack merchants in armies or forts to get more than one to stand on the same resource (Merchant Fort)

No surrounding armies or agents to destroy them. (Surround&Destroy)

Don't attack units who were left next to a settlement in order to capture it on the same turn in order to cheat the garrison script. In fact don't cheat the garrison script period. (this only applies vs AI factions)

Don't use repeated offers for bribe to increase your faction leader's dread.

Enable "Unlimited men on battlefield" in order to not abuse when leading battles vs the AI (PM me for instructions, though SS has this on by default)

Armies that are defeated in battle by a player that comes after them in the turn list may not move the following turn. This is to make it fair for people who are defeated by players that come before them in the turn list, and thus lose all their movement points

Armies that are defeated in battle may not be attacked on the following turn, as they are banned from moving, either by the game mechanics or by the rule above. They must be allowed to move first, or must be reinforced. If the defeated army retreats to a settlement or fort, this rule does not apply.

Ballistas can't open anything, catapults can open wooden walls, trebuchets or better can open anything.

Assassins are allowed to target anyone but the players are limited to one assassination or sabotage attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else. If a successful assassination or sabotage is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the assassination. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

Spies may infiltrate cities to open the gates as well as perform other spying actions but the players are limited to one attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else, OR the second action if they are also attempting an assassination / sabotage in the same turn. If a successful spying attempt is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the action. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

No crusades or jihads to be called or joined.

No buildings to be destroyed for cash under any circumstances.

No trading of provinces solely to receive free troops. If you trade provinces, make sure they have no garrison prior to the exchange.

No deliberate deals that would put you in debt above -10,000 florins

***Please post here if you are interested in joining the game and please also give me your opinion on the proposed rules and victory conditions.***

Players (12):
phonicsmonkey - The Mongols
Ashurnasirpal II
slysnake
Nightbringer
Myth
The Celtic Viking
LooseCannon1
Ezilkannan
Zim
Visorslash
Rougeman
Silvershield

[Ashurnasirpal II]

I'm still interested! But I'm so not the right person to criticize the rules :dizzy2:

Though, looks all good to me!

[slysnake]

I'll go with England if it's not already taken :)

[phonicsmonkey]

I'll go with England if it's not already taken :)

I'm planning at this stage to allocate the non-Mongol factions by lot, because in the 70 or so turns that the AI has hold of them they have become somewhat unbalanced. And I'd imagine England will be a popular choice to say the least...far away, safe from Mongols, longbows...

I'm sure there's room for some horse-trading around that with the other players though...

It depends of course which starting position we choose - more on that later.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I wish I could join but since I already participate in different games in the Org then I don't want to rip myself apart joining this as well. ~:(
Perhaps in the future when have some more time and there are still some factions left. Until then I'll keep lurking the threads and enjoy the games that way! ~:)

[phonicsmonkey]

I wish I could join

Go on, you know you want to...

seriously though, glad to have you even as a lurker :laugh4:

[Nightbringer]

Me,
in,
now,
fun...
:)

[Myth]

I'm in! Will this be with RR on or off?

Also, I'll be away until Sunday FYI. I like the rules, they were copied from the CoG post? :D I also like the revised victory conditions. Target cities are always good fun!

[The Celtic Viking]

I've no experience with hotseats, and my only experience with M2TW is what I've got from V&V.

...

I'm in!

[Nightbringer]

just as long as you don't bring the Margrave with you, welcome to the game!

honestly, glad to see you in the game, I look forward to competing with you.

[LooseCannon1]

I've been waiting for this one to start recruiting. Count me in.

[ArcturUs]

Sounds interesting, Im in :P

[phonicsmonkey]

I'm in! Will this be with RR on or off?

That's a good question. I actually can't remember whether I selected RR or not when creating the starting saves. I can always run it again if we want it without (or with). Maybe I'll jut post them here and you guys can take a look.


I like the rules, they were copied from the CoG post?

Pretty much.

Do we think the VCs are balanced? Is it too hard for the Mongols? Too easy?

[phonicsmonkey]

Here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=205&id=9169) are four possible starting positions. You can see that even though I had RR on (I think) by turn 120-odd there is plenty of high quality troopage to be had by all the factions.

It's a small thing to run these again with RR off if you don't like what you see.

I like number 1 because it is balanced and number 4 because it's a glorious mess.

What do you guys think?

[The Celtic Viking]

just as long as you don't bring the Margrave with you, welcome to the game!

Haha! So long as you don't bring Jens Herden, you won't have anything to worry about. ~;)


honestly, glad to see you in the game, I look forward to competing with you.

Oh likewise, comrade, likewise. I just hope my inexperience won't make this competition too one-sided.

[Nightbringer]

I can't see the map in those saves because console is admin only (I don't have the password, for obvious reasons.)

[Ashurnasirpal II]

Actually re-reading the victory conditions for the Mongols, shouldn't Jerusalem be replaced with Cairo? After all, in the end, the great enemy of the Mongols became the Mamluks from Egypt. Jerusalem meant nothing to them. And it isn't much harder to get to Cairo if they're already all the way to Jerusalem.

[Nightbringer]

the only other issue with the mongol VC's is that it strongly encourages the Mongols to basically only attack in the middle east, as three of their required targets are there, meaning they can ignore Moscow and that entire front.
Perhaps Jerusalem should be switched to Warsaw or another major city in the north to encourage the mongols to attack in both areas.

I guess Constantinople is kind of in both, but going through the middle east seems like a more advantageous route and will cut off any northern factions from much of the fight.

[phonicsmonkey]

I can't see the map in those saves because console is admin only (I don't have the password, for obvious reasons.)

Sorry, I thought that if I saved the game with the fog of war off then it would stay that way. I'll take screenshots of the maps and post them here. All the factions are open so you can flick through and look at them individually.


Actually re-reading the victory conditions for the Mongols, shouldn't Jerusalem be replaced with Cairo? After all, in the end, the great enemy of the Mongols became the Mamluks from Egypt. Jerusalem meant nothing to them.

Historically speaking I agree with you. Only Cairo is that much more difficult to get to than Jerusalem...so it makes life harder for the Mongols. What does everyone else think?

I just had an idea as well - what about adding an alternative VC for the Mongols so that they can take either 40 provinces with x, y and z cities or just 50 provinces in total. That might keep things from being too predictable.

EDIT: just saw your last post NB, does my suggestion help with that?

[phonicsmonkey]

Use this file (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=205&id=9171) for the first save instead. The others all have the fog of war off already, I just didn't do it with #1 the first time, sorry.

[Nightbringer]

I think we should go with #1, the balance seems excellent. Although I hope I get venice in it!
#4 looks fun but I think a few people might feel like the game was imbalanced. The Byzantines would be in an excellent position to simply let the Kwazies deal with the Mongols while they kill everyone else.

The only issue I can see with #1 is the Moors, but that might jstu bring in an interesting dynamic of a threat in the west as well, which will make england, france, etc... a little less comfy.

And thanks for doing all this phonics!

[phonicsmonkey]

I think we should go with #1, the balance seems excellent. Although I hope I get venice in it!
#4 looks fun but I think a few people might feel like the game was imbalanced. The Byzantines would be in an excellent position to simply let the Kwazies deal with the Mongols while they kill everyone else.

Venice is a good pick but England is a monster in 1!

We should definitely make sure that Kwarezm is human-controlled, even though they're going to take an immediate pounding. In fact all the sizable eastern factions should have humans to make sure I don't get an easy ride at the start.

[Nightbringer]

England does have its island home, but the Moors are strong enough that they will have to worry about that threat. If Spain and France are computer controlled the Moors would be in a great position to try to take on england.

[phonicsmonkey]

I think we'll get enough players to make sure no-one has it easy. That's the plan anyway.

[LooseCannon1]

Each save appears different in its own unique way:laugh4: I realize I'm channelling Yogi Berra with that statement:huh:
Is there a chance of starting 5 turns earlier so we can fix our faction? The save I looked closest at showed AI 1,2,3 unit armies running around. In most saves Turks, Cumans, and one or both Russians were down to almost nothing. Even Egypt was middle of the pack in one save.
Khwarzies had minimal garrisons in most cities and looked like easy pickings for Mongols. Three cities should fall on the first turn, then its how fast can the Mongols move? Over 20,000 soldiers!!

Victory conditions: Kiev should replace Moscow, and Cairo replace Jerusalem. And increase the number of regions (for Mongols)to something sensible. Like 198:laugh4:

[phonicsmonkey]

It's too hard to stop it five turns early but we can build in a grace period where the Mongols stand still while the rest get ready. The Kwaz are definitely going to lose some cities early whatever we do.

One thing I'm planning to do is equalize the treasuries for the non-Mongol factions, because some are heavily in debt. What about I give everyone 30k or something?

[phonicsmonkey]

sorry guys I discovered in testing that I have botched these saves and the horde is not working correctly, so I'm going to have to run some more and test those before we proceed. I'll hopefully have another selection for you in a day or so, in the meantime don't waste too much time looking at the ones I already posted because we can't use them.

Do feel free to continue the rules and VCs discussion though.

So far suggestions have been:

- replace Jerusalem with Cairo and Moscow with Kiev in the Mongol VCs
- increase the number of territories required by the Mongols from 40 to a higher number (what number?)
- provide a grace period at the start for non-Mongol factions to organise

[Nightbringer]

I support the grace period and the switches, as for victory condition I think a good way to do it would be to say the mongols need to hold all 4 regions, or say they need 4 out of 5 and add Warsaw

[phonicsmonkey]

I support the grace period and the switches, as for victory condition I think a good way to do it would be to say the mongols need to hold all 4 regions, or say they need 4 out of 5 and add Warsaw

If we do it that way I definitely think we should have an alternative too, like a larger number of regions without any specifics. Because otherwise I'm afraid the game will be too predictable.

[Nightbringer]

That makes sense, I think 60 would be a good number without the required provinces, or maybe 50.

[LooseCannon1]

Guys, I have two areas I'd like to bring up and get everybody's opinion on.

1. Naval movement bug. I consider this a bug & exploit and it should not be allowed. For those who don't know about it-put your army/agents on a navy with 2 or more ships. Then hold "Ctrl" and "a" together. Move ships and your movement points double. Your men can't get off the boats this turn but the distance they cover.

2 Vassalage. It really effects KGCM games more because another player can accept peace and vassalage for us on the AI turn. Making vassals of the AI factions to receive their money bonuses is, in my opinion, fair. Is it allowed here? We're about to end a game over at twc because of this issue. And the fact it's being brought up 12 turns after it occured.

[Myth]

Historically the Mongols needed the lands in modern day Russia - they made a huge profit there, and they were dubbed accordingly (the Golden Horde). The reached Hungary and Poland and subdued several cities of theirs. They also fought in the middle east and yes, the Mamluks did defeat them, though that happened after Ogedei Khan died and 90% of the horde retreated back to Mongolia to elect a new Great Khan. The Mamluks basically defeated a paltry 10k troops left as peacekeeping forces.

Anyway, I think the victory conditions should make the Mongols either hold a bunch of provinces and effectively eliminate the Kievan Rus, the K-Shah and the Turks, OR make them push far into Europe and conquer past Hungary and Poland.

So: hold 50 Procinces, eliminate factions x, y, z

OR

Hold 25 provinces, capture Warsaw, Cracow, Hamburg,

OR

Hold 15 provinces, capture all of the above + Paris, Rome, London.

Something of the sort, this is not thought out I'm just brainstorming (don't have a lot of time on the net atm)

Making sure the K-Shah is human controlled might be either very good or very bad depending on their position. In the TWC I've often heard how an AI controlled K-Shah beat the Mongols alone. Well remember that the money script in SS never lets the AI go bankrupt and they also have stacks scripts giving them free troops (try blitzing the Moors and Fatamids early on to see what I mean) AND they get free FMs so they can't die due to not having a family tree.

The K-Shah has great units and if it gets enough time, gold and castles it can seriously slap the Mongols around.

IMO RR on will benefit the Mongols as they get 50 free stacks of top-quality troops they can't hope to recruit in any reasonable time anyway.

RR off will mean we can spam our high-quality troops from our many castles. the later troops take a long time to train and replenish.

Equalizing the treasury to 30k for everyone seems OK to me.

Also I don't like that spies can open cities, this heavily favors the guys who have a lot of troops but no cities of their own to be captured (hint hint)

No Jihands/Crusades to be called or joined is a bit dull but OK. However if that's the case, then the ERE will be probably the second best pick after England. Perhaps even #1 if they have enough Scholarii at the start.

[Nightbringer]

i really like the set of VCs Myth came up with, but I think one southern city at least should be added, Baghdad or maybe Cairo?

[Ashurnasirpal II]

I'm going by a long shot here but why don't we divide the world into eastern and western factions (Say Italy, France, England, Spain, Denmark, HRE is West, the rest is East) and have the Mongol capture a certain amount of territory and capture/sack 1 eastern and 1 western capital from players (not AI). That would bring the confrontation both east and west whichever route the Mongols take without going into specifics and allowing phonics more freedom to plan his invasion. It could also help create tensions between the other factions trying to push the mongols into one direction or another.

Or maybe this is unrealistic... I don't really know.

[phonicsmonkey]

1. Naval movement bug. I consider this a bug & exploit and it should not be allowed. For those who don't know about it-put your army/agents on a navy with 2 or more ships. Then hold "Ctrl" and "a" together. Move ships and your movement points double. Your men can't get off the boats this turn but the distance they cover.

I agree, we'll ban this one.


2 Vassalage. It really effects KGCM games more because another player can accept peace and vassalage for us on the AI turn. Making vassals of the AI factions to receive their money bonuses is, in my opinion, fair. Is it allowed here? We're about to end a game over at twc because of this issue. And the fact it's being brought up 12 turns after it occured.

I'm not sure of the specific issue you guys are facing but I'm fairly relaxed about this. It's not a massive money bonus anyway is it? Also, there are no "AI" factions in this game because they were all set to human when I created the campaign. This is so none of them gets money bonuses or scripted events that AI factions get in the SP campaign. So this might not be an issue at all?


Anyway, I think the victory conditions should make the Mongols either hold a bunch of provinces and effectively eliminate the Kievan Rus, the K-Shah and the Turks, OR make them push far into Europe and conquer past Hungary and Poland.

So: hold 50 Procinces, eliminate factions x, y, z

OR

Hold 25 provinces, capture Warsaw, Cracow, Hamburg,

OR

Hold 15 provinces, capture all of the above + Paris, Rome, London.

I like this idea.


In the TWC I've often heard how an AI controlled K-Shah beat the Mongols alone.

See above for why there are no "AI" factions in this game.


IMO RR on will benefit the Mongols as they get 50 free stacks of top-quality troops they can't hope to recruit in any reasonable time anyway.

RR is off.



Also I don't like that spies can open cities, this heavily favors the guys who have a lot of troops but no cities of their own to be captured (hint hint)

I actually think this is going to favour you guys more than me - I have heaps of siege equipment and don't need to haul it as far as you. But for the same reason I don't mind if people want to ban spies from opening gates.


No Jihands/Crusades to be called or joined is a bit dull but OK.

Jihads and Crusades are a massive headache to police and I'd rather leave them out altogether unless there's a strong feeling from everyone that they should be included.

[SilverShield]

its looking good but im not really into those victory conditions for the non mongols. i mean we are good without creating "treachery". thats unnecessary. the human s victory conditions simply ought to be outstanding the mongol invasion and keeping them from reaching their goal. thats the main objective. if the last mongol is down the non mongols won. if u was setting the game up as it is right now its kinda unlikely that it was working the way it is meant to be. i mean if i was getting some faction somewhere in europe i certainly am not sending any troops to the mid east. i mean whats the point of fighting u there if some "ally" of mine is seizing my homeland. thats just senseless. sure this means u are winning this game but thats fine with me. for me its about getting the most out of a game while its running. final victory means nothing. if it wasnt entertaining in the first place its senseless. i certainly am still remembering some good games on the green that me and the team lost but that had been way more fun than some of those we d won. so im certainly getting more out of fighting my own lil war in europe than fighting u in the mid east while someone else is taking advantage of that and taking my homeland. even if that means that u are winning this. if the non mongols were fighting each other its pretty unlikely that vibe of the first wotk picks up again. its just another game then where everyone is doing whats best for him and not the team. there are other ways of heating things up. if u was having the turks and egypt siding with u and setting london, paris, leon, hamburg and warsaw as target cities + xx provinces the situation also is challenging. and its still balanced. even if the turks and egypt were siding with u we still got enough players in the west for making it an equal fight. i mean without any support the mongols are somewhat underpowered anyway. i mean without the rajputs things might had developed different. they were not just taking some of the fire but also blocked ur forces with forts. that was big. otherwise maybe the situation had been different. so for me its just fine if the turks and egypt were siding with u. we got enough players for taking over the rest of the world for making it and equal fight and since u are kinda deciding it lot like whos taking which its all equal. so what im actually saying is that the good thing of wotk was the battling of two major opponents. thats what created the experience. the final mongol victory meant nothing but that the game was over. its the things in between that matter. its two main rivals battling each other that is creating epic things - blue vs red - Jets vs Patriots - Ali vs Foreman - Coleman vs Cutler. all the big rivalries. those are making history

[phonicsmonkey]

I see your point Silver (but man your posts are hard to read :laugh4:)

Does anyone else feel like that about the non-Mongol VCs?

I guess what I'm trying to do is make the game a little less predictable, so create some tension between the non-Mongol factions which might create a reason for someone to side with me for a short time like the Rajputs in the first game. I'd rather that happened naturally then having (say) Turks and Egypt mandated to fight on my side from the start.

EDIT: I just had a thought. What about adding another requirement that means that non-mongol factions have to fight the mongols to win the game even if they are trying to win by being traitors?

For example:

- Outlast the Mongols and take 15 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players.
OR
- Fight 5 battles against the Mongols and take 30 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players before the Mongols win the game.

Silver, is that better do you think?

[Nightbringer]

how about
Capture at least 3 mongol cities and take 27 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players before the Mongols win the game.

simply saying fight 5 battles might result in 5 very minor skirmishes with one unit or something like that.

[LooseCannon1]

I agree, we'll ban this one.

People who didn't know about this are now in favor of banning it. It will be banned in future.


I'm not sure of the specific issue you guys are facing but I'm fairly relaxed about this. It's not a massive money bonus anyway is it? Also, there are no "AI" factions in this game because they were all set to human when I created the campaign. This is so none of them gets money bonuses or scripted events that AI factions get in the SP campaign. So this might not be an issue at all?
First turn of vassalage 92,000 florins (on turn 15). Yes, ninety-two thousand florins. And Denmark was forced to also accept peace with HRE. Next turn he attacked again, killing all (two)family members and HRE and cutting off my money supply:laugh4:. Now, 12 turns later, everybody wants to know how come France (me) had so much money. Minor flame war broke out after I reminded them-we had discussed this the first turn it happened (April 29th)

I'm in favor of RR off, spies opening gates and assassins killing generals (but not family members). Oh and Mongols capturing 50 regions and exterminating 3 factions. That's seems to be enough.

edit: could not see rules once I started typing. I'm ok with rules as posted in OP.

[phonicsmonkey]

First turn of vassalage 92,000 florins (on turn 15). Yes, ninety-two thousand florins.

That does sound unbalanced and we should probably then ban making the AI factions vassals. Their provinces won't count towards the VCs anyway and they don't stay loyal so there's really no reason to vassalize them except for this cash injection.


assassins killing generals (but not family members).

I think they should be allowed to kill family members - with the rule in place about how to use assassins (one attempt per turn and before anything else) it's easy to check each assassination to ensure it's legit. I think this takes away the threat of whole families being wiped out by them.

As for VCs I've been thinking about this a bit more. Myth suggested:


Mongols:

- Hold 50 Provinces, eliminate factions x, y, z

OR

Hold 25 provinces, capture Warsaw, Cracow, Hamburg,

OR

Hold 15 provinces, capture all of the above + Paris, Rome, London.

I thought of a few issues with these.

Firstly, if the Mongols are required to eliminate particular factions what's to stop you guys just continually relocating those factions further and further away? To avoid that we'd have to ban the trading of provinces which would handicap you guys (because it would make sense for you to exchange castles near the front line so that you could each recruit troops there without transporting them).

Secondly in the second VC the cities are all in Central Europe which creates a very predictable expansion path for the Mongols. We should add more cities as options in that one otherwise I'm just not going to opt for it and it becomes redundant.

Thirdly I think Paris and London are a bit harsh! I'm never going to choose to try to get to London. If you really want to put London in there I think it becomes a VC all of its own. If I get all the way to London I win!

So what about this instead?


-Hold 50 provinces including Kiev and Cairo.

OR

- Hold 25 provinces including three of Budapest, Cracow, Benghazi and Constantinople.

OR

- Hold 15 provinces including two of Rome, Frankfurt, Tripoli and Lubeck.

The cities aren't necessarily historically accurate paths for the Mongols but what it creates is a North/South line in each case where I have to get to before I win the game, and provides me different paths to get there so that it keeps you guys guessing about what I'm going to try to do.

For the non-Mongols I think we should have what NB suggested which is:


- Outlast the Mongols and capture an 15 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players.

OR

- Capture and hold at least 3 Mongol cities and take 27 additional provinces from one or more human non-Mongol players before the Mongols win the game.

What do you think?

[Nightbringer]

sounds good to me.

[Rougeman]

is there any room?
if there is, could i perhaps join? :D
im from the TWC and heard about this hotseat, and thought it might be fun. :)

[phonicsmonkey]

Welcome to the Org and to the Throne Room!

As for the game, you're in! Take a few minutes to catch up with the discussion and let me know if you have any suggestions about the rules and victory conditions.

[Rougeman]

ty for letting me join :2thumbsup:

i hope i wont die out quickly :laugh4:

[slysnake]

Guys, can't we just accept the rules as they are and get playing already? :)

[SilverShield]

yea sure im getting ur point of making the game less predictable but the game is unpredictable anyway even if there were teams right from the start. war always is unpredictable. anything is happening. one mistake or simply being lucky in some way and the whole picture already changes. so maybe its clear who is coming and where the journey ends but no one knows whats happening in between. maybe u aint into football but its the same with rugby. if its all blacks vs springboks its obvious that two teams are battling each other. yet what actually is happening while the game lasts is totally unpredictable and thats the exciting thing about it. anything is possible. so for me its best like i said. the mongol team vs the rest of the world

[Ibn-Khaldun]

phonics - I thought about it and you can count on me as a substitute player if someone suddenly drops out or something like that.

[phonicsmonkey]

Guys, can't we just accept the rules as they are and get playing already? :)

Patience....we're still recruiting and I'm still testing the save to make sure the script works without crashing.

IK: great, thanks!

[Ashurnasirpal II]

yea sure im getting ur point of making the game less predictable but the game is unpredictable anyway even if there were teams right from the start. war always is unpredictable. anything is happening. one mistake or simply being lucky in some way and the whole picture already changes. so maybe its clear who is coming and where the journey ends but no one knows whats happening in between. maybe u aint into football but its the same with rugby. if its all blacks vs springboks its obvious that two teams are battling each other. yet what actually is happening while the game lasts is totally unpredictable and thats the exciting thing about it. anything is possible. so for me its best like i said. the mongol team vs the rest of the world

Then again, that's what Clash of Gods is. And we're both playing in it. A little more randomness in this game helps differentiate them.

[phonicsmonkey]

Patience....we're still recruiting and I'm still testing the save to make sure the script works without crashing.

By the way I should say that I would have finished the test last night but unfortunately about 25 turns into the game a mob of Cuman assassins killed off nearly all my FMs and I don't think I can make it to the end of the script without the rest being knocked off.

It really was a night of the long knives - in one turn they got seven Mongol FMs and about four agents. I'll post a screenie here later for your amusement.

So I have to roll back the save a few turns and take over control of the Cumans and Kwarezm just to stop them doing it...should be finished tonight then I'll post the starting save here for you to see.

[phonicsmonkey]

Nearly finished the test last night...should have a save for you to look at tomorrow.

[phonicsmonkey]

Ok, here's (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=205&id=9208) a working save with all the factions open for you to look at.

Let me know what you think - looks pretty balanced to me, as far as possible at turn 127 when the AI has been in control of the vehicle.

[ArcturUs]

pretty much all the factions seem to be in a good position, except a few, I'll go with Moors :p

[phonicsmonkey]

I'll go with Moors :p

This reminds me - once we have our set number of players (soon) I was thinking we should cut some factions so that we have the right number of human-controlled and they are the strongest. I thought the best way to do this would be by number of territories, effectively taking the largest for us and leaving the smallest AI - make sense?

Then I'll allocate them among you randomly and you guys can trade them if you want.

[Myth]

I cycled trough every faction and can give you some suggestions.

1. This is actually valid for any lategame SS hotseat - the spamming of General's Bodyguards from Fortresses should be banned. They are effectively self-regenerating, free upkeep heavy cav that the AI loves to recruit en masse. I think only adoptions/marriages and regular births should be allowed to be used. Otherwise no matter what the faction, everyone will want the free upkeep, self-retraining cav and some factions get better BG units than others. These are especially powerful in a lead battle game.

2. Some factions are in pathetic condition. It's not so much a matter of territory, but a combination of territory and current army strength. The worst is Portugal - down to their last city and with two armies versus a sea of Moors. Norway is pretty low on provinces and while they do have a couple of good stacks, they have to take on Denmark, possibly the HRE and France can always come by and take their settlements along the coast. Novgorod has it pretty bad as well - at war with Lithuania, the Cumans and the Kievan Rus, currently besieged by one faction. The Cumans and Lithuania are both vastly superrior in terms of size and troop quality (mass horse archers, that are second only to Mongol ones). The Teutonic Order is not playable but it's an immortal faction in SS. They are emergent and lack a family tree. Which means that every time you kill them, they spawn again with a half stack or full stack of knights. They are currently besieging a Lithuanian fortress. And they will be a pain in the backside to deal with for anyone in that region. Genoa is also on it's hind legs, squashed between Aragorn and the HRE. Venice is with a very low province count and although it has some armies, it faces the might of the ERE to the East and a bunch of hungry HRE/Genoese/Sicillians back in Italy. England has a few but well developed cidies and castles, and two rebel and three Scottish provinces up for the taking. Scotland has a very unimpressive roster, it's scattered around the Highlands and it generally will spend a tremendeous effort if it tries to take on England. if both Egnalnd and Scotland are human, then England has a definite advantage with Miles cav and Yeomen Archers.

On the other side of the world, the Fatamids have turned into the Yellow Death as per usual, the K-shah has a lot of land but a lot of problems as well with Genghis&Co making an appearance there. The Turks are so-so, they have the jump on the Fatamids turn-wise but the Yellow Death has vastly Superior armies.

However since so many stacks are placed everywhere at random, some near cities etc. I think a grace period of 1 turn must be allowed for players to regroup, build forts etc. otherwise whomever precedes his enemy in the turn order can just wipe out entire stacks for free.

Also I wanted to ask, which AI setting was used to generate this? Gracul or Lusted? Which one will we use for the game?

[ArcturUs]

This reminds me - once we have our set number of players (soon) I was thinking we should cut some factions so that we have the right number of human-controlled and they are the strongest. I thought the best way to do this would be by number of territories, effectively taking the largest for us and leaving the smallest AI - make sense?

Then I'll allocate them among you randomly and you guys can trade them if you want.

hmm, ok,

[LooseCannon1]

This reminds me - once we have our set number of players (soon) I was thinking we should cut some factions so that we have the right number of human-controlled and they are the strongest. I thought the best way to do this would be by number of territories, effectively taking the largest for us and leaving the smallest AI - make sense?

Then I'll allocate them among you randomly and you guys can trade them if you want.

Sounds good. I agree with Myth that a lot of factions are in pathetic condition. Portugal, Aragon, Venice, Genoa, Scotland, Hungary, and Novgorod are definite AI candidates. The rest of western Europe (+Poland) might be salvageable by a human player. (But not with humans in charge of all of them.) K-shah, Turks, Cumans, Fatamids, Byzantium, Kiev Rus, Moors, and Lithunia are in good shape.

Any chance of eliminating some TO units at start? Cutting them in half would be nice.

[Myth]

Aragorn will finish off Genoa soon, they have great sea trade going on and if they start a coordinated attack vs the Moors they can be salvaged as well. But if France is human controlled, then probably not. Hungary is about at Poland's level, and Hungary's units seem better overall - 2 kinds of HAs + very good foot knights.

Lithuania can take care of the TO with a massive HA stack but they are simply out of position...

The Kievan Rus is better than Novgorod, at about Poland/Aragorn level. Scotland can prosper if and only if England is AI controlled. But even then it's roster is a bit meh for lead battles. (lacks good cav). I would actually give Portugal a try simply for the huge challenge that they face, but only if the Moors are not human controlled.

[phonicsmonkey]

Based on your feedback and a look at the save game I think the human factions should be:

- Egypt
- Byz
- Kwaz
- turks
- Rus
- Moors
- Cumans
- France
- Denmark
- England

What do you guys think of that?

[Visor]

What is the setup so I can check the save?

[phonicsmonkey]

SS 6.4, early and with gracul AI

[phonicsmonkey]

Sorry, no, Savage AI

I think

do you know how to check?

[Visor]

Go to data/campaign then open recent.txt

Shoud tell you all you need to know.

[phonicsmonkey]

awesome

it's savage AI and RR is off

[phonicsmonkey]

Based on your feedback and a look at the save game I think the human factions should be:

- Egypt
- Byz
- Kwaz
- turks
- Rus
- Moors
- Cumans
- France
- Denmark
- England

What do you guys think of that?

Add HRE to that and we have 11 non-Mongol factions. How does that list look to you? We have all the major powers and a good spread of eastern and western factions.

[Visor]

Sure. I'm good for anything. Though I would rather a catholic faction.

[phonicsmonkey]

I think what I'm going to do is, rather than draw lots for the factions, I'll randomise the list of players and that will determine who picks in which order. That way everyone has a chance to express their preference.

EDIT: Here is what random.org says is the order of picks:

1. Rougeman
2. The Celtic Viking
3. Silvershield
4. Ezilkannan
5. Zim
6. slysnake
7. Visorslash
8. Ashurnasirpal II
9. Nightbringer
10. LooseCannon1
11. Myth

Get picking from this list:

- Egypt Zim
- Byz Silvershield
- Kwaz
- turks
- Rus
- Moors Ezilkannan
- Cumans
- France
- Denmark The Celtic Viking
- England Rougeman
- HRE

[ArcturUs]

Based on your feedback and a look at the save game I think the human factions should be:

- Egypt
- Byz
- Kwaz
- turks
- Rus
- Moors
- Cumans
- France
- Denmark
- England

What do you guys think of that?
I got no problem with that :thumbsup:

[Rougeman]

i have not seen the save (i LOVE surprises :creep:) and i think im gonna chose.........

England :2thumbsup:

[Visor]

Hmm.

[LooseCannon1]

I think what I'm going to do is, rather than draw lots for the factions, I'll randomise the list of players and that will determine who picks in which order. That way everyone has a chance to express their preference.

EDIT: Here is what random.org says is the order of picks:

1. Rougeman
2. The Celtic Viking
3. Silvershield
4. Ezilkannan
5. Zim
6. slysnake
7. Visorslash
8. Ashurnasirpal II
9. Nightbringer
10. LooseCannon1
11. Myth

Get picking from this list:

- Egypt
- Byz
- Kwaz
- turks
- Rus
- Moors
- Cumans
- France
- Denmark
- England Rougeman
- HRE

Ok, people, it's time to man up. Somebody needs to step up and choose the Kwazies so Myth dosen't get stuck with them :laugh4: I know you'll are going to leave the Cumans/Kwazies for Myth & me :end:

[Visor]

I'll take the Cumans if no-one wants em. (Sorry if it's out of order, but I don't think anyone really wants to be them. :P)

[The Celtic Viking]

I'll pick Denmark.

[Myth]

I'm last to pick? Then, can I pick any available faction, be it in the list or not? Mind you those that are not in the list are considered weaker.

[ArcturUs]

hmm, if we are allowed to pick factions not in the list, I might have a change of mind in choosing the factions too, I may opt to pick a faction in tough situation, hmm. but not kwarez though as Im already playing as Kwarez in CoG.

[SilverShield]

man most of those factions are wasted. theres a US debt size ahead for almost anyone. looks pretty messy already. guess with england and denmark taken kiev probably is the best choice but i dont know i aint feeling them really whatever im more into living up to my military past so give me that cojones strutting monster. east rome all the way. oorah puppies

[phonicsmonkey]

hmm, if we are allowed to pick factions not in the list, I might have a change of mind in choosing the factions too.

I'd rather you picked from the list so we get a decent spread of east and west and all the important factions are included. It would suck to have a game like this where no-one picked (eg) Egypt. But let me know if you have a specific faction in mind.


theres a US debt size ahead for almost anyone.

I'm going to equalize everyone's treasury at 30k before we start. So you'll at least get a chance to balance the budget.

[ArcturUs]

I'm going to equalize everyone's treasury at 30k before we start. So you'll at least get a chance to balance the budget.
that's good.

Anyways, regarding the pick, I'm sticking with my old decision, I will take the Moors

[Zim]

Egypt, please.

[Nightbringer]

I'll take the byzantines

[phonicsmonkey]

I'll take the byzantines

Two things are wrong with that I'm afraid

1) it's not your pick yet (see above for the order)
2) Silvershield has already picked the Byzantines

[Nightbringer]

Two things are wrong with that I'm afraid

1) it's not your pick yet (see above for the order)
2) Silvershield has already picked the Byzantines

hmmm,

I SUPPOSE you are right, I'll have to check into that though......






XD whoops!

[Visor]

If Sly doesn't take Cumans, put me down for them, otherwise give me Khwarez. Don't think I'll last too long. :P

[slysnake]

I'll go with Holy Roman Empire, since I think I will be bored playing France in CoG and Wrath of Khan :)

[Ashurnasirpal II]

If Sly doesn't take Cumans, put me down for them, otherwise give me Khwarez. Don't think I'll last too long. :P

I think it's fair to say Visorslash is taking the Cumans, so I'll take France!


1. Rougeman
2. The Celtic Viking
3. Silvershield
4. Ezilkannan
5. Zim
6. slysnake
7. Visorslash
8. Ashurnasirpal II
9. Nightbringer
10. LooseCannon1
11. Myth

Get picking from this list:

- Egypt Zim
- Byz Silvershield
- Kwaz
- turks
- Rus
- Moors Ezilkannan
- Cumans Visorslash
- France Ashurnasirpal II
- Denmark The Celtic Viking
- England Rougeman
- HRE slysnake

[Nightbringer]

I shall lead the mighty Kieven Rus then.

[Zim]

So I'm taking over a large Egypt and you the Rus. I shall have to switch to Turkey and be destroyed by you before this is done. :clown:


I shall lead the mighty Kieven Rus then.

[LooseCannon1]

So I'm taking over a large Egypt and you the Rus. I shall have to switch to Turkey and be destroyed by you before this is done. :clown:

If you would like to trade Egypt for the Turks, I'd be willing to accommodate you.:laugh4:

[Zim]

Wouldn't you prefer the Kwarezhm? :beam:

[Nightbringer]

So I'm taking over a large Egypt and you the Rus. I shall have to switch to Turkey and be destroyed by you before this is done. :clown:

Hmm, that sounds familiar...

But my concern here is the mongols, and I hope to stand by your side this time.

[phonicsmonkey]

So LooseCannon1 has the Turks and Myth has the Kwaz, right? And we're ready to get started?

Do we have any graphic designers in the house who would like to create an image for the top of the game thread? and maybe some sigs?

[ArcturUs]

yea, I would like to have sig made for moors :p, any sig makers out there?

[Myth]

Normally I would volunteer to make the images but I have an urgent task on my hands that I'm not sure how long will take to finish. Ezilkannan who made your signature? It's pretty good, I especially like the dark sky above.

[phonicsmonkey]

I'm not going to hold the game up because of graphics - it looks like we're ready to get started.

Myth if you have time after your work is done would you like to make the image then? I don't think I know anyone else who can / is willing to help...

Also I have been asked why I insisted on playing the Mongols and I thought it deserved a public explanation.

Apart from the fact that it will be fun, the major reason is that for a game like this to succeed the person playing the Mongols must be committed and always around. In the last WotK game the Mongol player had to be replaced halfway through, which worked out ok but was unfortunate.

So I thought it would be best for me to take them given I'm always here and will not leave the game.

Anyway I'm closing this thread now and I'll start the game in a new thread shortly.