Unlisted factions

[Gilrandir]

I have always assumed that the list of factions you can see in the game (at least vanilla MTW/VI that I play) is limited to the playable ones (slightly varying at different periods) plus a few unplayable (Papacy, the Horde, the People of Novgorod in early). All other provinces belong to rebels.
But the other day I recalled my very first MTW/VI game as the Byz (normal, early). And do you think what? I remembered seeing an unlisted faction - the Khazars (in the corresponding province) marked in white on the little inset map in the upper left corner of the screen. They lasted for quite a time and then degenerated into rebels before the arrival of the Horde. Am I the only one with such an experience or has anyone else seen this (or perhaps other) unexpected factions?

[gollum]

The Khazars are a rebel faction Girlandir. All rebel factions are not one big rebel faction - they are split in minor rebel factions relative to the province/culture they are found.

[Brandy Blue]

Well, not exactly. The rebels use different cultures/buildings and unit rosters depending on where they are, but they still behave like a single faction. If you are at war with one of them you are at war with them all, and they do not fight each other. IIRC they share a single treasury too.

[gollum]

The rebels use different cultures/buildings and unit rosters depending on where they are, but they still behave like a single faction. If you are at war with one of them you are at war with them all, and they do not fight each other. IIRC they share a single treasury too.

Hello BB, the rebels do indeed share a treasury, and yet different rebel factions do not cooperate if they are of different cultural groups. For example, in Volga Bulgaria i have set the province as Muslim to simulate the Volga Bulgars in the Caravel Mod, and teh Khazars in Khazar are a pagan rebel faction. If you attack the VBulgars and either beat them or make them retreat, their remnants do not go anywhere else, as there is no neighbouring Muslim rebel faction. Similarly, a large patch in the rebel Russian lands in the mod is Orthodox. If you attack them, you are not at war with the Lithuanians/Livonians/Fins/Prussians/Pomeranians that are pagan, neither the Russian rebels cooperate with the Pagan ones.

I have also seen the Russian/Orthodox rebels in russia in the caravel mod getting land from the pagan ones, so they can fight each other again if they are of different cultural groups/religions. Rebel factions carry out attacks only when they have more than a stack or thereabouts in a province (overspilling). If they have less you won't see them attacking.

The way you describing rebels collaborating, happened only in STW pre-MI, where all the rebel faction was one and was cooperating everywhere indeed. In MI, the rebels became different rebel factions and that was taken a step further in MTW.

[Brandy Blue]

Well, yes rebels do not retreat into an area of a different cultural type. That would have to be the case or they would not retain their cultural cohesion, which we agree they have.

Are you sure about rebels fighting each other? I can't say I've ever seen it. Ever found a castle held by rebels beseiged by a different kind of rebel? Ever attacked a rebel held province only to find that a different kind of rebel invaded on the same turn and is treated as a separate army by the AI, possibly even neutral toward you? Ever checked the alliance screen and found that you are at peace with some rebels and at war with others? I can't say I remember any of those things happening. I have to assume that at best its rare.

Also IIRC, you don't get to trade with any rebels once you are at war with one type. I'm not sure though, since I don't really monitor where my trade income comes from.

Also, if you try the .conan. cheat you will find yourself controlling all the rebels as a single faction. I think its more accurate to describe the rebels as a single faction, and the AI has been doctored to make it feel like multiple factions, by segregating different cultural types. I suspect that's what happened in MI as well. Probably it was simply quicker and easier to set up the game engine that way than it would be to have truly seperate rebel factions.

Incidentally, I never said that the different rebel cultures collaborate in battle. They stick to provinces of their own culture (unless invading some other faction) as part of the multiple faction illusion. That effectively prevents them from cooperating.

Suit yourself, but I would say that a common treasury, a habit of rarely if ever attacking each other, and a common foreign policy makes them more like a single faction with regional flavor than a group of different factions.

[Gilrandir]

The Khazars are a rebel faction Girlandir. All rebel factions are not one big rebel faction - they are split in minor rebel factions relative to the province/culture they are found.
In the game I speak of all other rebels were called just rebels without a monarch of any kind, but the khazars were called the Khazars, not rebels, and they had a ruler. Unfortunately, it's been way back so I don't remember the details, but the facts that I state I recall pretty well.

[gollum]

I see. Well there is no such faction declared in the startpos, and i haven't seen this myself, so i don't know in that case :)

[RRMike]

I've seen the khazars and many other named rebels, but they're still rebels. If you mouse over their province and wait it will say "rebels" and underneath "the khazars" or "the Irish". The border around their army's pedestals are gray and another color if you look closely and on the mini map in the upper corner their whites are shaded different colors.

[Gilrandir]

That's what I'm speaking of. But am I right in remembering them to have a king?

[RRMike]

It seems like I remember seeing a royal unit in Khazar but I couldn't say for sure. Also, I was mistaken about mousing over the province, it was the unit stack that displays the "rebels, the khazari" or whatever.

[edyzmedieval]

It seems like I remember seeing a royal unit in Khazar but I couldn't say for sure. Also, I was mistaken about mousing over the province, it was the unit stack that displays the "rebels, the khazari" or whatever.

Khazar Royal Cavalry I believe, the super unit of cavalry that I always want to bribe and use for my armies. ~D

[Madden]

That unit is still considered a general. You can verify that in battle..when it says "The Enemy General Flees" Instead of "The Enemy King Flees".

Also you can play as the rebels if you want. Then you see that they are all the same Faction..technicaly.

Even more in depth. The factions are declared in the Starpos file. Khazar is listed, but as rebel.

When you conquer that province..and get it to rebel after several turns. You can spawn 2 rebel armies in the same province...one is Khazars and other is Rebels. But they both fight together as allies in the battle. And this doesn't always happen, it just depends on how your loyalty is upgraded.