My Near Eastern Nightmare

[Saldunz]

This is a problem.

I'm playing as the Saba and this is my reality every single turn. In fact, all my armies are on this screen right now. The composition of the one army highlighted is my largest army, and, really, is no worse than any of the besieged garrisons. These units are up against constant waves of phalangitai. The Ptolemies are now at war with no one else - they've completely wiped the Seleucids off the map!

I've been enduring, and while they were once distracted with the Seleucids, I took this nice big chunk out of the Levant. But now I'm not sure how I should/can proceed.

So does the EB community have any suggestions or ideas on that?

[Arjos]

Garrison Sidon and Hierosolyma, while the rest of your troops invade the Nile delta...
You could sack those wealthy cities and move south, consolidate your power there and then push into Mesopotamia...

[Sylon]

Several tips:

-Ditch the skirmishers and get more Pantodapoi instead. Phalangitai tend to be too heavily armoured for skirmishers to do much damage, even from the back.

-In battle, set your Pantodapoi to guard mode and get them to stand in front of the enemy's phalanxes. This prevents them from committing suicide by running into a wall of pikes.

-All the provinces that border the Arabian desert allow you to recruit Arabian Skirmishers, which make a good line infantry; Arabian Slingers, Arabian Archer-Spearman, which use composite bows; and finally Arabian Light Cavalry. I would suggest adding more Archer-Spearman to your ranks, thanks to their relatively high ranged attack. Furthermore, getting some units of Arabian Light Cavalry would be extremely helpful. Though the unit card doesn't say so, they're actually armed with .33 lethality AP lances, making them an Arabian version of the vaunted Leuce Epos, recruitable from Lvl 2 Factional MIC's. Take note that Babylonia and Seleukeia are counted as bordering the Arabian desert as well.

-Mercenaries are key. Forget the heavy infantry and Mistophoroi Phalangitai- what you need is heavy cavalry. In particular, you can recruit Thracian Podromoi in this region- though they may cost a lot, they're well worth it.

-Armour-piercing is key. Get those red sea axeman out and use them to chop the enemy Phalangitai into bits.

-Finally, rely on stone walls for asymmetric warfare. With several regiments of archer-spearmen and red sea axeman, along with some filler Pantodapoi, you can easily butcher armies far larger than your own. Phalangitai, as a rule, don't tend to work very well when they're assaulting a wall garrisoned by AP axes. :wink:

EDIT: Also, if you're planning to leave a front and focus your efforts elsewhere, stick a level 4 government in there and recruit a Mercenary Governor. It's expensive, but you'll be surprised how much damage a full unit of regenerating heavy cavalry can do to your enemies.

[d'Arthez]

Agree with Arjos. Garrison Hierosolyma and Sidon in particular, and create a strike force to take Alexandreia and Memphis. Preferably with an army containing some slingers and archers, which will come in handy when defending both these cities. Since Homeland governments for the Ptolemaoi are restricted to the Nile Delta, taking these cities will have a massive impact on their capabilities to wage war effectively, and should significantly reduce high level phalangitai spam. Even if you just take Alexandreia, it should significantly reduce your problems; it is a lovely place to defend with sallies.

You don't really want to extend shared borders, but limit the number of cities that border the Ptollies, preferably with natural defenses (rivers), so once Alexandreia and Memphis are secured you may want to move to Antiocheia.

[NikosMaximilian]

I agree with everything stated above, and couple of tactical advices:

- Garrison your settlements with Sabaen Archers, Arabian Archer-Spearmen, Arabian Slingers and Red Sea Axemen. As soon as you are besieged, attack. Man the walls with the archers and slingers spread right in front of their position with fire at will ON. Since they have not built any siege equipment, you'll get to inflict quite a few casualties, because they will run through the map, usually parallel to the walls. Once that happens, they'll either a) withdraw or b) you'll get to fight a depleted army, and when you are moving out of the town they may even charge and expose themselves to the slingers, archers and towers again.

- Once you field a decent battleline capable of holding the Phalanxes, use your skirmishing infantry, cavalry and slingers to envelop and shot them in their backs or pepper their reserves/Family member.

and a few of strategical tips:

- When you have some money to spare, train a diplomat. The Parthians and Makedonians are bordering the Ptolemies, try to seek alliances with them.

- Also send your diplomat to trade (if possible sell) map information with everyone, not only for the income, but to have a better idea of what's going on around you (unless you use toggle_fow). Which leads me to...

- Send a spy up the Persian Gulf coast! Check if those settlements are yet under eleutheroi control. If the Parthians or Ptolemies made it all the way to Charax and kept expanding south, you may find yourself surprised and fighting at two fronts.

- Once you have some breathing room, go for the Nile cities as others already mentioned, but also try to take Antiocheia. The Ptolemies have acess to some (not all) of their best units there and is usually a very populated city. Taking it would reduce the spamming.

Hope it helps! It always challenging as Saba fighting the two Hellenic superpowers.

[athanaric]

- Take Cyprus. It's usually weakly garrisoned. Also, it has a gold mine and trade routes to Greece.
- Take Maketa, unless the neighbouring province is already held by Pahlava (you'd risk war then). It makes for good trade along the Persian Gulf.
- Fighting as Saba is somewhat similar as fighting as Swêboz (except that Saba has weaker melee but better missiles). You have to run around a lot so as to get behind the enemy, but your units have great stamina. Don't get yourself entangled in static warfare unless you have phalanxes.
- For field battles, Panda phalanx supported by Red Sea Axemen (or Kappadokians if available) and Arabian Light Infantry should be the base on which your battle line is built.

[Cute Wolf]

I'll only second anything that involve sacking egypt, but don't neglect your eastern garrison in levant.

[athanaric]

I'll only second anything that involve sacking egypt, but don't neglect your eastern garrison in levant.

Yeah, apart from Carthage, Egypt is my favourite raiding target as pretty much any faction.

[Saldunz]

Thank you everybody for the tips and advice.

The turns pass by very, very slowly due to the number of battles I have to fight in this campaign. It's been about 2 years and I've managed to take Antioch without losing any of those other cities. I opted to go for Antioch before Egypt because I'm hoping that it will become the sole focus of the Ptolemies northern attacks. That and I've noticed that the large majority of the armies marching towards me are from the north.

Tactically, I've been very lucky, routing the Ptolemies elite units using my sad bunch of levies. One curious thing I've noticed when fighting as the Saba is that I have to fight really, really dirty. I have to exploit every single advantage I get, and if the terrain is even slightly unfavorable to me, I have to withdraw. This is my first campaign where I've had to strategically withdraw from cities I've held because there was just no way I could come out of the incoming siege a winner.

The Ptolemies armies field their elite units, but thankfully only infantry, without any meaningful backup from cavalry or missile units.

To address some of the things mentioned in your posts...
- Cyprus is the Ptolemies capital right now and is garrisoned with a half-stack. Besides, I wouldn't be able to afford the ship's cost to transport troops there at this stage.
- There's no chance of the Pahlava coming down the coasts because Charax is held by the Ptolemies, and the Ptolemies are rather occupied with my near eastern campaign, I hope.
- I'm currently allied with Macedonia, whom I hope to never be at war with, and the Seleucids who apparently still have a city somewhere I can't find... Probably way out in the east about the overrun by the Pahlava. If there were any way to get the Macedonians to attack the Ptolemies, it would make things so much easier.
- Incidentally, I get about 1500 mnai per turn. My economy is dreadful. I can no longer afford mercenaries, so I'm basically stuck with the occasional retrain these units get.

Has anyone had any real success in situations like these? The battles right now are certainly winnable with careful tactics, but the sheer volume and attention you're getting from the strongest AI faction in the game can be quite suffocating. I imagine this is probably a similar experience as playing with Hayasdan and Pontus, but at least then you have some armoured units with half-decent morale! The Ptolemies have 5 times my numbers on the map, and when I take more than 10% casualties in a battle, I cringe and take it as a loss - even when it's a heroic victory!

EDIT: I probably should mention that the only units available to me in my Levantine cities are Pantodapoi. Bostra and Damascus are essentially depopulated, and the Arabian cities are too far away. Combine that with my abysmally low income and constant sieges and you'll understand why half-decent strike forces are impossible right now. I really hope the acquisition of Antioch will boost my income a bit. At any rate, it'll slow down the rate at which the Ptolemies pump out Phangites and Gallic Heavy Swordsmen...

[fomalhaut]

i gave up on my Sabaean levant nightmare, too boring and points out every glaring fundamental flaw with the RTW engine

[Blxz]

I think you may be over extended a bit. Sounds like you are struggling to hold your conquests. I know it feels like a terrible thing to do but you may consider burning every building in the towns and then abandoning them and moving south into the desert. You can bunch all your garrisons into big armies and then loot and enslave and burn as many towns as you can (babylon and seleukeia maybe?). Then disband or move south. This will allow you to consolidate your nation a bit.

After that I suggest boating across to Axum and Meroe. If you can defend arabia by fighting in the desert you can raid from the south and be fighting only on those fronts as you marhc north. Not to mention some homeland resources and great regionals for the Saba as well as some mines. If you can then push (or raid) your way to the mediterranian you will have weakened the Ptolemy's considerably.

[cezarip]

One of my favorite strategy with Saba is to send a diplomat to Carthage. The earliest possible the better. Then burn my way across Egipt and if there are towns I feel I can't keep, I just exterminate them and hand them over to Carthage + some money gift to allow them to garrison it. This has two consequences: it might trigger a war Egipt - Carthage and release the pressure on you and if Carthage gets to keep them then they'll do all the job for you. They'll convert the town to the semitic culture you share with them and build it up. You can get it back later.

[Arjos]

Don't rely on alliances, not in RTW, soon as you'll share a border is pretty much done, you can sometime delay the inevitable for few turns, but that's it: backstabbing is bound to happen...
As for money, Nile Delta is the key, you can even destroy temples, and yes levies are fantastic, especially with guard mode on, in my Seleukid campaign 4 Pantodapoi literally ate Phalava's FMs and elites XD

[d'Arthez]

- You may want to have a single spy operating between Hierosolyma and Alexandreia to see if the path is clear
- You may want to look in having your Family Members in the right cities (FMs with healers in Antioch could reduce your need for retraining). Since Antioch has stone walls, you may want to up the number of slingers and archers to make use of them. Defending from the walls has the crucial advantage that the number of casualties is low.
- You may want to consider destroying wonders in Hierosolyma and Sidon to get some extra cash in. Since Bostra and Damaskos are depopulated, you may want to destroy some of the buildings there as well. Losing Damaskos is perhaps not the worst thing that can happen, but I am not sure if the AI will then suddenly think Bostra is an interesting target then.
- Where is your capital? Moving it up north may save you some money.
- You may want to opt for a surprise naval invasion of Alexandreia. The ship will be expensive to build, but at least you don't have to clear the Gaza strip. If you are succesful in a siege of Alexandreia, you have solved your money issues (enslavement will bring in a load of money, and then there are some buildings you can happily destroy).

[athanaric]

- You may want to consider destroying wonders in Hierosolyma and Sidon to get some extra cash in. Since Bostra and Damaskos are depopulated, you may want to destroy some of the buildings there as well. Losing Damaskos is perhaps not the worst thing that can happen, but I am not sure if the AI will then suddenly think Bostra is an interesting target then.
Destroying the Jewish temple in Hierosolyma is a very bad idea since it provides +10 law, and as Saba is desperately short on law boni anyway, and the city is in your victory conditions, you'll need that wonder before the end.

What is much better though is to destroy the estates (kleroi basilikoi, latifundia, etc.) built by other civilied factions. You'll lose trade income and pop growth by that, but you'll neutralize the law penalty they give - also, these estates easily make a city too large to be properly governed by a faction of a different culture group. This applies to barbarian factions as well.

[Brennus]

My only campaign as the Saba ended after 4 turns when I lost my first battle (i'm that good!) so I have no real advice, although as the Seleucids I had a similar problem, my solution was a naval invasion of the Nile Delta whilst the Ptolemoi were distracted in the Levant, it worked wonders.

In the meantime I will give offerings to Belenos and Teutatis to bless you, I will dedicate the offerings by making breakfast and then eating it.

[Ibrahim]

your best bet is to follow the advice some of the above posters gave, but I also must add:

if you are forced to fight a set-piece battle with the ptolies, one thing I found useful is to take advantage of AI stupidity, but pretending to withdraw (walking pace) from the enemy, while appearing to scatter at the same time: the ptolies, in their infinite wisdom, will break formation. at that moment, quickly gather up your men, and isolate further, surround, and destroy each regiment in detail.

best to do so with a lot of AP units, and a general with a lot of men in his bodyguard.

it worked in Egypt against an army twice my size-but it takes timing.

[Saldunz]

Well, with a lot of luck and much of the advice posted above, the nightmare is over. After taking Antioch (and thus securing the whole Levant), Memphis was shortly taken as was Tarsos. The bulk of the Egyptian armies are smashing themselves to bits against the walls of Memphis (manned by Arabian slingers and mercenary Cretan archers).

My economy still sucks, but it looks like things will be getting better... Alexandria will shortly come under my possession. All of these new possessions have been fitted with Type 4 government, which I find more profitable for the Saba. The smart(est) thing to have done, I suspect, would've been to enslave every major Ptolemy settlement I took, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it - especially not while using an unselfish general. I suppose for the more steel-hearted, this whole nightmare could've been avoided.

I still can't recruit anything better than Pantodapoi in most cities, but most of my battles now are quite low in non-Pantodapoi casualties. So it works out. According to the Ledger, the Egyptians are still the top dog in the game, but the worst of their onslaught seems to be over! The worst battle with them to date saw my side lose almost a quarter of my men. Mostly pantodapoi, I believe, although I'm sure a sizable number of my skirmishers have bit the dust.

Incidentally, I found where the last Seleucids were hiding! Lesser Armenia of all places. They apparently have been holding out decently there against the distracted Ptolemies.

It's 6 years after the original post and at last, I feel like I can breathe!

[athanaric]

Well, with a lot of luck and much of the advice posted above, the nightmare is over. After taking Antioch (and thus securing the whole Levant), Memphis was shortly taken as was Tarsos. The bulk of the Egyptian armies are smashing themselves to bits against the walls of Memphis (manned by Arabian slingers and mercenary Cretan archers).
You can recruit Kretan Archers at a level 4 regional MIC in Alexandria (and Antiocheia and of course Kydonia). They're more easily replaceable than the mercenary variant.

[Saldunz]

You can recruit Kretan Archers at a level 4 regional MIC in Alexandria (and Antiocheia and of course Kydonia). They're more easily replaceable than the mercenary variant.

Still a ways off before I have enough money to build those structures, as none of those cities are past level 1 regional MICs, but hopefully that will happen well before the inevitable Saba-Pahlava war...