Kill the whales!

[HoreTore]

Reason and truth is overcoming lies and delusions.

The Norwegian government today transferred the whaling responsibility from the foreign ministry to the fishing ministry. This is a day to rejoice, because the reason is that whaling is no longer an international concern, foreign states no longer foam at their mouths and scream about boycotts due to this sustainable and sensible industry.

We restarted whaling in 1993, with a quota of 300 whales, and it's now 1286. The kind of whale(vågehval in norwegian, don't know what it is in english) being hunted numbers 81 400 in the north sea/barents/svalbard area, with another 26 700 around Jan Mayen.

This is sustainable and sensible fishing at its best. Now onto our next task; clubbing baby seals...

[InsaneApache]

I thought you were threatening Charlie and Camilla for a second there. :laugh4:

I agree, let's go clubbing. I'll do the bop and you can do the bump.

[gaelic cowboy]

This is sustainable and sensible fishing at its best. Now onto our next task; clubbing baby seals...

https://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4662/a472.gif

Yes indeed there far to young to frequent those places.

[Adrian II]

Reason and truth is overcoming lies and delusions.

The Norwegian government today transferred the whaling responsibility from the foreign ministry to the fishing ministry. This is a day to rejoice, because the reason is that whaling is no longer an international concern, foreign states no longer foam at their mouths and scream about boycotts due to this sustainable and sensible industry.

We restarted whaling in 1993, with a quota of 300 whales, and it's now 1286. The kind of whale(vågehval in norwegian, don't know what it is in english) being hunted numbers 81 400 in the north sea/barents/svalbard area, with another 26 700 around Jan Mayen.

This is sustainable and sensible fishing at its best. Now onto our next task; clubbing baby seals...

Good news indeed. Harpoons away!

AII

[Samurai Waki]

The whales have had it too good for too long... how dare they infest our waters, eating our plankton and our krill.

We all are porpoises right?

[HoreTore]

The whales have had it too good for too long... how dare they infest our waters, eating our plankton and our krill.

We all are porpoises right?

No, we are humans, and whales are a sustainable food source in a world that struggles to feed its population. And they're hunted sensible, as opposed to the huge number of fish threatened with extinction plus all the ones we have already wiped out.

Oh, and IA made me laugh out loud :smash:

[Noncommunist]

No, we are humans, and whales are a sustainable food source in a world that struggles to feed its population. And they're hunted sensible, as opposed to the huge number of fish threatened with extinction plus all the ones we have already wiped out.

Oh, and IA made me laugh out loud :smash:

Since when does Norway struggle to feed its population? What whaling countries even have any problems feeding their populous? Most of the staving ones happen to be between the tropics of cancer and capricorn and don't tend to have huge whale populations and a lot of them are landlocked.

[HoreTore]

I'm going to sign you up for a crash-course called "Economics 101: Supply and Demand", noncommunist.

I'll give you the short version now though: food is traded on a global scale. More food in the world means a rise in the supply without a rise in demand. Following the economic laws, this will lead to a lowering of food prices. In the last few years, we have all seen what damage rising food prices to do the world. This will lower food prices.

Besides, the majority of our fish is exported. Fishing is our biggest industry by far, and we're only 4.8 million up here...

[InsaneApache]

You do realise that the only thing between us and octo-squid Armageddon is the sperm whale. Probably called Dick.

[HoreTore]

Good thing we're only hunting minke whales then....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nice to know under the Socialist Liberal vaneer HoreTore is really just another Viking.

[Louis VI the Fat]

How many Norwegians can I kill sustainably?

[Noncommunist]

I'm going to sign you up for a crash-course called "Economics 101: Supply and Demand", noncommunist.

I'll give you the short version now though: food is traded on a global scale. More food in the world means a rise in the supply without a rise in demand. Following the economic laws, this will lead to a lowering of food prices. In the last few years, we have all seen what damage rising food prices to do the world. This will lower food prices.

Besides, the majority of our fish is exported. Fishing is our biggest industry by far, and we're only 4.8 million up here...

While it would increase the supply of food, it just doesn't seem like it would be in near enough quantities to decrease prices of food significantly. And it seems that killing thousands of whales would do some damage to the population. How many whales of that species are there in total anyways?

[Populus Romanus]

How many Norwegians can I kill sustainably?All of them.



sarcasm

[jirisys]

How many whales of that species are there in total anyways?


All of them.



sarcasm

~Jirisys ()

[Hosakawa Tito]

That's a lot of sushi. Try this instead of seals (http://www.addictinggames.com/arcade-games/whackamole.jsp).

[Ironside]

How many Norwegians can I kill sustainably?

Depends on how you define a Norwegian. Between about 20.000 to 40.000 to 140 millions yearly. The specie transformation process called immigration complicates things. :book:

[Skullheadhq]

How many Norwegians can I kill sustainably?

All of them, nobody would notice, really :laugh4:


Edit: damn, too late, populus romanus was faster

Anyway, if they really like whale, let them hunt for it. I for one, hate all sorts of fishes, eating fish makes me throw up.

[HoreTore]

While it would increase the supply of food, it just doesn't seem like it would be in near enough quantities to decrease prices of food significantly. And it seems that killing thousands of whales would do some damage to the population. How many whales of that species are there in total anyways?

Of course there wouldn't be any significant drop in prices.

As for population numbers and quotas,you can find them in the OP.

[HoreTore]

Nice to know under the Socialist Liberal vaneer HoreTore is really just another Viking.

Sustainable and sensible agriculture is socialism at its best.


How many Norwegians can I kill sustainably?

Well, the royal famly for a start.....

[gaelic cowboy]

Sustainable and sensible agriculture is socialism at its best.

Except the fishing industry is more like mining and not agriculture, a farmer is paid for produce he already owns, a fisherman does not own the resource till he catches it.

Mining is an extractive industry and must be controlled and just like fishing there is no incentive to protect the environment in either unless they are compelled too.

[HoreTore]

Except the fishing industry is more like mining and not agriculture, a farmer is paid for produce he already owns, a fisherman does not own the resource till he catches it.

Mining is an extractive industry and must be controlled and just like fishing there is no incentive to protect the environment in either unless they are compelled too.

This is irrelevant, since whaling is done sustainably.

[gaelic cowboy]

This is irrelevant, since whaling is done sustainably.

Worldwide???? or just in one particular area on one kind of whale, and it is highly relevant as whale eat a variety of prey from plankton to other whales and how fishing treats said prey is at the top of the agenda.

[HoreTore]

Worldwide???? or just in one particular area on one kind of whale, and it is highly relevant as whale eat a variety of prey from plankton to other whales and how fishing treats said prey is at the top of the agenda.

I am referring to the norwegian whaling, I don't know what the japs do. And what they're doing is irrelevant.

We hunt 1286 whales per year of a kind that numbers over 100k. No problem at all.

[Fragony]

I am referring to the norwegian whaling, I don't know what the japs do. And what they're doing is irrelevant.

We hunt 1286 whales per year of a kind that numbers over 100k. No problem at all.

Not to the whale population, but killing a whale is a slow and torturous affair. No way to treat such an emotional and intelligent creature. Just because it's wrong

lol at thread title btw

[Furunculus]

Reason and truth is overcoming lies and delusions.

The Norwegian government today transferred the whaling responsibility from the foreign ministry to the fishing ministry. This is a day to rejoice, because the reason is that whaling is no longer an international concern, foreign states no longer foam at their mouths and scream about boycotts due to this sustainable and sensible industry.

We restarted whaling in 1993, with a quota of 300 whales, and it's now 1286. The kind of whale(vågehval in norwegian, don't know what it is in english) being hunted numbers 81 400 in the north sea/barents/svalbard area, with another 26 700 around Jan Mayen.

This is sustainable and sensible fishing at its best. Now onto our next task; clubbing baby seals...

good news, rock on.

if you are harassed by any greenpeace boats feel free to 'do' a France on them.

[Skullheadhq]

good news, rock on.

if you are harassed by any greenpeace boats feel free to a France on them.

With or without those hippies on board? ;)

[Furunculus]

that is the call of the sovereign nation-state of Norway to make........ ;)

hippies, like gingers, have no moral compass and therefore are suspected of being incapable of having a soul. their human rights have thus been suspended in several legal jurisdictions.

[lars573]

With or without those hippies on board? ;)
Dealers choice.

[rajpoot]

Cows, pigs, hens, boars, deer, rabbit, shark, whale....
Does not really matter, as long as they aren't hunted to extinction or are an endangered species.

[jirisys]

Farm them.

We farmed cows, there are millions.

We farmed corn, there are millions.

We farmed sheep, there are millions.

When we farm something, it makes us own them, and so we have a property to protect, the more we have of them, the better income we will get.

So farm them.

~Jirisys ()

[gaelic cowboy]

Farm them.

We farmed cows, there are millions.

We farmed corn, there are millions.

We farmed sheep, there are millions.

When we farm something, it makes us own them, and so we have a property to protect, the more we have of them, the better income we will get.

So farm them.

~Jirisys ()

Farming fish is quite possibly one of the stupid things you can do, farming whales is equally silly.

The fish we generally farm need to eat other fish therefore there is no let up in overfishing, whales of the kind here that HT is talking are carnivores and require other fish like herring and cod.

[gaelic cowboy]

that is the call of the sovereign nation-state of Norway to make........ ;)

hippies, like gingers, have no moral compass and therefore are suspected of being incapable of having a soul. their human rights have thus been suspended in several legal jurisdictions.

You would be on stronger ground if whales and there prey were not migratory species Furunculus.

[Strike For The South]

Meh, the minke really isn't that cute

I say kill the bastards

[Adrian II]

The insects are gonna survive us all. In the mean time, let's have some fun.

AII

[rajpoot]

The insects are gonna survive us all. In the mean time, let's have some fun.

AII

We need more post-apocalyptic books/movies/video-games centered around cockroaches.....I always wondered why Fallout had giant ants and no giant cockroaches. :clown:

[Adrian II]

I always wondered why Fallout had giant ants and no giant cockroaches. :clown:

You are so right, my friend, I suppose people still can't handle the truth.

AII

[jirisys]

Farming fish is quite possibly one of the stupid things you can do, farming whales is equally silly.

The fish we generally farm need to eat other fish therefore there is no let up in overfishing, whales of the kind here that HT is talking are carnivores and require other fish like herring and cod.

I fail to see the problem. We farm pigs, carps, etc.

~Jirisys ()

[HoreTore]

Fish farms work splendidly, at least for salmon. I don't have the numbers in my head right now, but I do believe the majority of Norwegian fishing now comes from fish farms, or at least its close to a majority. If you ever buy a salmon from Norway, it's garantueed that it comes from a fish farm.

Now, fish farms do have a couple of problems; lice love it there and the fish escape from time to time. But there is a new generation of fish farms in development, which looks to adrss both of these completely.

As for farming whales, the big question is: why....? Why bother? We farm salmon because of the high demand and because salmon are quite capsble of living in such farms. Whales might not be so easy, plus there's not that big demand and hey, they're already swimming out there ready to be hunted.

And the bottom line is: whale beef tastes good. Therefore they should be eaten.

[gaelic cowboy]

I fail to see the problem. We farm pigs, carps, etc.

~Jirisys ()

Pigs, cows, sheep, horses, goats and chickens can and do eat vegetation, however farming predators is a differant story it requires a lot more energy and input.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Pigs, cows, sheep, horses, goats and chickens can and do eat vegetation, however farming predators is a differant story it requires a lot more energy and input.

The tiny fish salmon eat - we don't eat. However, you are correct that farming carnivors is baaaaaaad, its like feeding pig brains to cows.

[HoreTore]

Salmon in fish farms is fed pellets made from fishmeal, plantoil and fishoil.

Edit: oh, and has anybody else noticed that the only treehugging hippie in this thread is Fragony? That bloody gutmensch!! :smash:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Salmon in fish farms is fed pellets made from fishmeal, plantoil and fishoil.

Edit: oh, and has anybody else noticed that the only treehugging hippie in this thread is Fragony? That bloody gutmensch!! :smash:

For the record, I don't think it's sustainable (yet) because of the population size - you are liable to get inbreeding, especially as you are going to be killing off family groups if you start doing it intentionally.

Of course, you could go back to doing it properly - provided you aren't to attached to your fingers.

[HoreTore]

I'm not quite sure what your post means, philipvs...

Edit: I think I understand you, you're saying that whaling is not sustainable? That's what the quota system is there for, it's set at the number it is because that is an ammount that makes the hunt sustainable.

Just like the elk hunt is sustainable, so is whaling.


Still not quite sure what the finger-comment is about though...

Edit2: to elaborate on the comparison to elk:

There are around 110.000 whales, and we hunt 1286 yearly.
There are around 120.000 elk, and we hunt 35.000 yearly. In addition, 1-2000 is whacked by traffic.

As the elk is doing just fine, there is little doubt that the whale will do fine as well.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Edit: I think I understand you, you're saying that whaling is not sustainable? That's what the quota system is there for, it's set at the number it is because that is an ammount that makes the hunt sustainable.

I wold prefer a population in the 150-200 thousand, there are millions of people in Norway, tens of millions in most other European countries, we need to stop looking at such small animal populations as healthy. There are fewer Wales in the North Sea (according to you) than in this small impoverished city I call home.


Just like the elk hunt is sustainable, so is whaling.

Over time, a small population with a (relatively) large hunting quota (1/3 for Elk) you will start to see loss of genetic diversity, increase in inbreeding, suseptability to disease... you wouldn't let it happen to a human population.


Still not quite sure what the finger-comment is about though...

You don't know your whaling! Men regularly lost fingers gripping the rope from the whaling boats back when whaling was done en masse. Modern "whalers" use harpoon guns and a winch, don't they? That's hardly fair.


Edit2: to elaborate on the comparison to elk:

There are around 110.000 whales, and we hunt 1286 yearly.
There are around 120.000 elk, and we hunt 35.000 yearly. In addition, 1-2000 is whacked by traffic.

As the elk is doing just fine, there is little doubt that the whale will do fine as well.

Will they be doing fine in 200 years, or 500.

[Greyblades]

Hrm... I would think there would be at least some difference, do whales and elks have a similar breeding age + reprodiction rate?

[HoreTore]

The elk, which is hunted much, MUCH more, is doing just fine, and has been doing fine for thousands of years. And we have whacked a much higher percentage in the past. I see absolutely no reason that the whale won't do fine as well.

In the world of quotas, 1286/120.000, or roughly 1%, is, quite fittingly, a drop in the ocean.

[Noncommunist]

Edit2: to elaborate on the comparison to elk:

There are around 110.000 whales, and we hunt 1286 yearly.
There are around 120.000 elk, and we hunt 35.000 yearly. In addition, 1-2000 is whacked by traffic.

As the elk is doing just fine, there is little doubt that the whale will do fine as well.

Whales also almost certainly take a longer time to grow into adults. If you have 100 dogs and you kill 50 every year for food, you can still have more dogs to eat. If you have 100 humans and kill 50 every year to eat, you'll run out of them very quickly.


You would be on stronger ground if whales and there prey were not migratory species Furunculus.

You could be like the nomads of central asia, guiding your whale herds around the ocean till the time came when you could harvest them. Maybe train some dolphins to "nip at the heels" of the whales to keep them moving in the right direction. It'd be like the old west except instead of cowboys, you'd have whaleboys!

[HoreTore]

Hrm... I would think there would be at least some difference, do whales and elks have a similar breeding age + reprodiction rate?

No idea.

But the people who set quotas do, and their aim is to keep populations stable. At any rate, the specie is marked LC on the red list.

[Husar]

We can genetically re-engineer the whales and make them vegetarians, no? ~;)
Or maybe convince them to become vegetarians?

I think the biggest problem with farming whales is, how?
Those whales are big and need a lot of space, do you want to build huuuuuuuuge swimming pools or build huuuuuuuge, veeeeery stroooong* fences to partition the ocean? Both options don't sound very doable to me.

*no, I'm not drunk... :clown:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The elk, which is hunted much, MUCH more, is doing just fine, and has been doing fine for thousands of years. And we have whacked a much higher percentage in the past.

Elk have been in constant decline for centuries, they aren't a viable food source either except as a luxury.

Let me ask you this, how many reindeer does the average Sami have? That should give you some idea how far away from being an actual "food source" Elk are.

[InsaneApache]

Clubbing! oh Yeah!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_sY2rjxq6M

[Hosakawa Tito]

We can genetically re-engineer the whales and make them vegetarians, no? ~;)
Or maybe convince them to become vegetarians?

I think the biggest problem with farming whales is, how?
Those whales are big and need a lot of space, do you want to build huuuuuuuuge swimming pools or build huuuuuuuge, veeeeery stroooong* fences to partition the ocean? Both options don't sound very doable to me.

*no, I'm not drunk... :clown:

How??? Why hire the experts on massive awesome to ride herd on dem whales. TEXANS :yes:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I"m a treehugger too, HoreTore. I wasn't kidding when I inquired about the amount of Norwegians we can cull each year without a demographic collapse.


Whale hunting is all about a handful of geographically isolated countries indulging in a nationalist feast. The raised middle finger to the world as a source of national pride. It is all very tribalistic. The bloodier the 'ancient' tradition, the more fanatical the heels are dug in. 'From our cold dead hands...'

I'd rather you'd all put on pointy helmets and marched five times around an ancient holy oak at solistice while drinking deer blood or some such. It would serve to indulge the same ritualistic function, without the ecological Russian roulette.



that is the call of the sovereign nation-state of Norway to make........ ;) Can all 200 sovereign states each annually kill 1286 whales from that entire whale population of 100k? :smash:

[Fragony]

Edit: oh, and has anybody else noticed that the only treehugging hippie in this thread is Fragony? That bloody gutmensch!! :smash:

Would it help if I say that not all animals are equal ~;)

Whales are simply too human too eat

[Kagemusha]

Horetore. Why dont you start farming cats and dogs for food and leave the whales be for an while?

[Fisherking]

Apparently some say that Norway started hunting Minke Whales in 1930.

Their fish farms are also messing up the environment.

The number for the whale population is also in contention. The Norwegians seem to think there are more than anyone else can find.

It also seems that the reason for restarting the whale hunt was a blatant political move to gain popularity with voters in the north of the country.

If it really is such an ancient tradition they it should be done in a traditional manner. Most Norwegians don’t seem to keen on whale meat anyway.

[HoreTore]

Elk have been in constant decline for centuries, they aren't a viable food source either except as a luxury.

Let me ask you this, how many reindeer does the average Sami have? That should give you some idea how far away from being an actual "food source" Elk are.

The elk is NOT in decline. The Elk has gone up and down in population size for centuries, but is now kept stable at 120.000. This size is about as big as it can be, if there are more of them, they will start having adverse effects on the ecosystem and themselves. Boost their numbers a little, and a couple of years later their numbers will plummet.

And you can't compare a domesticated animal to a wild one. Try comparing it to the badger population in England, which is at roughly 200.000.

And 35.000 animals yearly makes them a very viable food source.

[HoreTore]

Horetore. Why dont you start farming cats and dogs for food and leave the whales be for an while?

Why.....? Why on earth should a sustainable food source be forgotten in a world where people starve? I say the opposition to whaling is that of the elitist society who have never lacked anything, personified best by Louis here. Louis has never gone to bed without food and never slept without a roof. As Louis has never been without the basic things that one needs, it's hardly a wonder that he sees whaling as an issue of national pride.

An ethiopian might have a different view on whether or not to eat something that won't affect the enviroment in any way.

@Fisherking: the minke whale is LC on the red list. There is no problem with their numbers whatsoever. But if you have some oth source with their population numbers that the UN doesn't know abiut, please do share. And gaining voters in the north? I highly doubt that, since that's not where the most of the industry is located.

Fish farms are currently a problem because of fish escaping, which is why there is a new type of fish farm in development, which will hopefully fix that. But then you should be happy to know that whaling is completely eco-friendly ~;)

[HoreTore]

Would it help if I say that not all animals are equal ~;)

Whales are simply too human too eat

But is it a human? Nope. That makes them food.

[gaelic cowboy]

Fish farms are currently a problem because of fish escaping, which is why there is a new type of fish farm in development, which will hopefully fix that. But then you should be happy to know that whaling is completely eco-friendly ~;)

Thats not the only reason it takes vast amounts of fishmeal to keep fish farms going this has an effect on the wild populations of all fish.

Put simply were catching all the prey other fish need to eat in an already stressed global fishery.

[HoreTore]

Thats not the only reason it takes vast amounts of fishmeal to keep fish farms going this has an effect on the wild populations of all fish.

Put simply were catching all the prey other fish need to eat in an already stressed global fishery.

The fish meal comes from the cod processing plants, using the leftover parts of the cod.

We're using fishmeal as fertilizer too, maybe we should shut down all agriculture eh?

[Hosakawa Tito]

What's whale taste like?

[gaelic cowboy]

The fish meal comes from the cod processing plants, using the leftover parts of the cod.

We're using fishmeal as fertilizer too, maybe we should shut down all agriculture eh?

Cod is not exactly in the healthy number range now is it, pound for pound it's probably more expensive than steak due to it's scarcity.

There is so little cod that often fish and chip shops are pretending to have cod and selling hake or whiting as cod and no one cops it.

[HoreTore]

Cod is not exactly in the healthy number range now is it, pound for pound it's probably more expensive than steak due to it's scarcity.

There is so little cod that often fish and chip shops are pretending to have cod and selling hake or whiting as cod and no one cops it.

In Ireland, that's probably true. Due to Lofoten, however, it's another story in Norway. Cod is one of the cheapest fish you can get here. I don't have the exact price in my head, however(but if you want to know, I can get it later). I believe it's around 40-50NOK per kilo for cod, 70-80NOK for salmon, while steak is around 150NOK.

And its not the meat of the cod that is used to produce fishmeal. The meat is, of course, sold as food.

[gaelic cowboy]

In Ireland, that's probably true. Due to Lofoten, however, it's another story in Norway. Cod is one of the cheapest fish you can get here. I don't have the exact price in my head, however(but if you want to know, I can get it later). I believe it's around 40-50NOK per kilo for cod, 70-80NOK for salmon, while steak is around 150NOK.

And its not the meat of the cod that is used to produce fishmeal. The meat is, of course, sold as food.

What does it matter what part of the cod is used for fish feed when several cod need to be caught and processed.

Cod is still endangered and an apparent local increase means nothing when regarding the entire specie, the quota's are still too high and there is still FAR too much bycatch.

[HoreTore]

What does it matter what part of the cod is used for fish feed when several cod need to be caught and processed.

Cod is still endangered and an apparent local increase means nothing when regarding the entire specie, the quota's are still too high and there is still FAR too much bycatch.

The cod fished in Lofoten is doing just fine, what happens in other parts of the world I don't know.

[Fragony]

But is it a human? Nope. That makes them food.

It's an animal. Food is what's on your plate. It's a waste to kill them they are really magnificent creatures. I also kinda doubt it can be sustainable, they are really slow breeders and give birth to only one calf. What does the math say

[Kagemusha]

There is abundance of Dolphins also HoreTore. Why not switch to Dolphins, or are they too cute to kill compared to minke whales? What we know these days is that whales are extremely intelligent and lot of factors suggest that they are self aware, unlike for example cats and dogs. To me killing intelligent wild creatures is something we need not to do anymore.

[Husar]

I thought most of the hungry people in the world aren't hungry due to a general lack of food but because food is kept away from them, European and US farmers destroy and waste food to keep the prices up, African warlords intentionally take food away from people etc., not much to do with whether or not Norway hunts whales. Can you prove that there was a decline in starving african children since Norway took up whale hunting again or not?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why.....? Why on earth should a sustainable food source be forgotten in a world where people starve? I say the opposition to whaling is that of the elitist society who have never lacked anything, personified best by Louis here. Louis has never gone to bed without food and never slept without a roof. As Louis has never been without the basic things that one needs, it's hardly a wonder that he sees whaling as an issue of national pride.Now don't be silly.

Whales are hunted by Japan, Iceland and Norway. This has got nothing to do with elitist foreigners stealing the food from starving Norwegian children.


Also, 1286 whales, that's the equivalent of edible meat of, what, six, seven thousand cows? That doesn't make a differences for total food consumption. No, whale hunting is a blood sport, applauded for reasons of local politics and national pride of a few remote, isolated countries.

If this was about the 'national tradition' (is it in the first place?) of flower growing, then it would not have become a matter of firmly dug-in heels, of nationalists foaming at the mouth, of local politicians holding national and international politics hostage. But this is about blood. About killing. About the men of your tribe, donning on the tribal colours and attributes, and going off to kill. This is why blood sports become a matter of nationalist agitation, from the whale hunting of the island countries to the bull fights of the Hispanic world. Once these local practices manage to achieve the status of national tribalistic blood ritual, then any outside pressure will only strenghten the resolve of the tribe to maintain their ritual, subsequently making the ritual an even bigger part of the tribal identity.



~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


A population of 100k whales. A lifespan of fifty years. That means 2000 replacement whales each year. Norway alone kills 1286. That means some forty percent of all whales born will be killed by Norway alone, each year.
The 1,286% is deceptive. It is not about a tiny one percent. This is about killing for sports forty percent of all whales who make it into adulthood each year, these magnificent animals which take years of gestation and intimate care.

It is also ecological Russian roulette, of a species which most probably has nowhere near recovered from ecological collapse. And which are nursed by an ecosystem of half an ocean, and should not be considered the private property of one single obstinate country pulling its middle finger at the world. One in 1286 people on this planet is Norwegian. I propose as a compromise that Norway can have its 1/1286th share of the whale population, and can shoot one whale each year.

[Slyspy]

As soon as your whale meat starts appearing in aid packages to famine zones then you can claim that hunting whales is fighting against world hunger. In the meantime you are talking nonsense.

[HoreTore]

There is abundance of Dolphins also HoreTore. Why not switch to Dolphins, or are they too cute to kill compared to minke whales? What we know these days is that whales are extremely intelligent and lot of factors suggest that they are self aware, unlike for example cats and dogs. To me killing intelligent wild creatures is something we need not to do anymore.

Dolphins are already being eaten, and I have no problem with that either.

You see, both whales and dolphins are not humans. Not being humans means that you're food.

And Louis, come back when the minke whale drops to NT, then I'll be in complete favour of shutting down the industry. But animals deemed LC? Nope, they're food.

And for the record, I fully trust that the fishing authorities won't endanger a specie.

Husar, we've seen what happens when food prices increase globally. Any and all new food sources, no matter how small or big, will impact the global market according to its scale. World hunger won't occur because of one big drought, but several tiny ones, and the world isn't fed by one big food source, but several tiny ones. As we say, many small streams make one big river.

[Kagemusha]

Dolphins are already being eaten, and I have no problem with that either.

You see, both whales and dolphins are not humans. Not being humans means that you're food.

And Louis, come back when the minke whale drops to NT, then I'll be in complete favour of shutting down the industry. But animals deemed LC? Nope, they're food.

And for the record, I fully trust that the fishing authorities won't endanger a specie.

Husar, we've seen what happens when food prices increase globally. Any and all new food sources, no matter how small or big, will impact the global market according to its scale. World hunger won't occur because of one big drought, but several tiny ones, and the world isn't fed by one big food source, but several tiny ones. As we say, many small streams make one big river.

Orca is on the top of food chain in the Ocean. Killing and eating swimmers and surfers, in other words humans would be no problem for it. Still it does not do that. It can kill a white shark, but it does not attack humans on purpose. Maybe it has superior values compared to you?

[HoreTore]

Orca is on the top of food chain in the Ocean. Killing and eating swimmers and surfers, in other words humans would be no problem for it. Still it does not do that. It can kill a white shark, but it does not attack humans on purpose. Maybe it has superior values compared to you?

Do I care?

[Adrian II]

Orcas eat whales, too.

AII

[Strike For The South]

Now that we have the green light from the Orcas. Is it cool?

[Adrian II]

And killer Texans eat orcas, I'm told.

AII

[Kagemusha]

Do I care?

Exactly my point. Just keep your archaic bloodsport, if it makes you feel more manly, but please drop the act that you are saving worlds food problems with it.

[HoreTore]

Exactly my point. Just keep your archaic bloodsport, if it makes you feel more manly, but please drop the act that you are saving worlds food problems with it.

I am in favour of every sustainable food source on the planet, because there isn't enough of them.

I do not see any problem at all with whaling. Bloodsport? You're going to have to explain that one.

[Kagemusha]

I think Louis already explained it in his post. If you really think that starvation is caused by lack of world wide food supplies, you are dead wrong. The amount of crops destroyed by US and European farmers would easily be enough to feed the starving africans. I guess the west just has similar views concerning africans like you have concerning whales.They dont care. If you have become such an survivalist these days, maybe you ought to start advocating cannibalism, as humans are an abundant meat source, with no danger of runnning out of suply very soon.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think Louis already explained it in his post. If you really think that starvation is caused by lack of world wide food supplies, you are dead wrong. The amount of crops destroyed by US and European farmers would easily be enough to feed the starving africans. I guess the west just has similar views concerning africans like you have concerning whales.They dont care. If you have become such an survivalist these days, maybe you ought to start advocating cannibalism, as humans are an abundant meat source, with no danger of runnning out of suply very soon.The whale meat mostly ends up in Japan anyway, where it fetches a fortune. It's just a few people plundering the oceans for their own private gain. They've managed to enlist an entire country to their side by pretending its an ancient Norwegian tradition to sell whale meat for sushi.


The reality is that there is little market for the meat in Norway - the real goal of Norway's whalers is export to Japan where prices paid for whale meat are several times higher than in Norway.

The Japanese connection

The Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) currently lists all the great whales on its Appendix I, under which the international trade in whale products is prohibited.
Japan and Norway are both lobbying aggressively, to downlist whales from Appendix I to Appendix II, thereby reopening trade.
In early 2001, the Norwegian government announced that it would allow the export of whale meat and blubber to Japan, even though such trade is prohibited under CITES.
A spokesperson for the whalers public relations arm described the decision as 'the final victory'. Greenpeace has documented tons of frozen blubber, each block carefully wrapped and labelled in Japanese, stored in Norwegian industrial freezers, waiting for export.
A resumption of international trade in whale products would have dire implications. Pirate whalers will have an even greater incentive to hunt whales covertly, as it will become easier for them to smuggle illegal whale meat into Japan.
Even with the current trade ban in place, illegal whale meat from both abundant and endangered species of whales is regularly discovered on sale in Japan.
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/oceans/whaling/norwegian-whaling/

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm going to sign you up for a crash-course called "Economics 101: Supply and Demand", noncommunist.

I'll give you the short version now though: food is traded on a global scale. More food in the world means a rise in the supply without a rise in demand. Following the economic laws, this will lead to a lowering of food prices. In the last few years, we have all seen what damage rising food prices to do the world. This will lower food prices.

Wait, 1281 whales a year are going to effect global food prices? There's something fishy about this line of reasoning...

[Fragony]

Orcas eat whales, too.

AII

They even eat great whites, orca's are the ultimate king of the sea

edit: as Kamu pointed out :shame:

[Kralizec]

Of course whaling is sustainable. For Norway, that is. So is using vast amounts of DDT and dumping toxic waste in the ocean. The rest of the world can't do it though, that would ruin it.

If the rest of Europe and China followed Norway's and Japan's example, there wouldn't be a whale left in a couple of years. Louis pointed this out on page 2, how about some response from the pro-whaling camp?


The whale meat mostly ends up in Japan anyway, where it fetches a fortune. It's just a few people plundering the oceans for their own private gain. They've managed to enlist an entire country to their side by pretending its an ancient Norwegian tradition to sell whale meat for sushi.

I didn't know this, but it figures. Just like with their mediterranean proxies and their genocide on tuna :no:

[jirisys]

But is it a human? Nope. That makes them food.

But does it really need to be something other than human? Give the aztecs a nice little human heart and they eat it nicely.

~Jirisys ()

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think Louis already explained it in his post. If you really think that starvation is caused by lack of world wide food supplies, you are dead wrong. The amount of crops destroyed by US and European farmers would easily be enough to feed the starving africans. I guess the west just has similar views concerning africans like you have concerning whales.They dont care. If you have become such an survivalist these days, maybe you ought to start advocating cannibalism, as humans are an abundant meat source, with no danger of runnning out of suply very soon.

Not to mention criminal mismanagement in Zimbabwe has the capacity to feed all of Sub-Sarharan Africa on. its own. Add South Africa into the mix and one can only conclude that Africa is (physically) capable of feeding itself and making itself fat.

So Europe need not even come into it and Whales are utterly irrelevant.

For humans to start killing a species whose intelligence and life expectancy is comparable to our own, but whose population is a tiny fraction of ours is not good husbandry.

[Greyblades]

But does it really need to be something other than human? Give the aztecs a nice little human heart and they eat it nicely.

~Jirisys ()
...What? Where did you hear that the aztecs were cannibals?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

...What? Where did you hear that the aztecs were cannibals?

Where did you hear they weren't? Myans and Incas too, to be fair.

[Populus Romanus]

...What? Where did you hear that the aztecs were cannibals?Human meat was the main dish at the after-party for ritual human sacrifice in Mesoamerican cultures.

[Greyblades]

Yikes. I dont remember that part in the horrible histories book. Seems like the sort of thing Terry Deary would have made a big deal about.

[jirisys]

Human meat was the main dish at the after-party for ritual human sacrifice in Mesoamerican cultures.

We are Mesoamerican, we are cannibals, we do not forgive, we do not forget, united as one, divided by zero, expect us.

~Jirisys ()

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yikes. I dont remember that part in the horrible histories book. Seems like the sort of thing Terry Deary would have made a big deal about.

Nice to know British education continues to degrade. You din't know this, seriously?

[Greyblades]

1) The Aztec's feeding habits are not important for Students in Britain.
2) One person's ignorance is not an indication of a country as a whole.
3) This coming from the guy who cant spell "didn't".

That was uncalled for.

[gaelic cowboy]

Chill out lads


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-F2HKLzB6c

[Slyspy]

I'm not sure that Aztec cannibalism is a given

[Strike For The South]

Take everything the Spainish write with a grain of salt

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

1) The Aztec's feeding habits are not important for Students in Britain.
2) One person's ignorance is not an indication of a country as a whole.
3) This coming from the guy who cant spell "didn't".

That was uncalled for.

Um, you are oversensitive, and I am inclined towards bluntness.

I have honestly never met anyone who didn't know about Aztec ritual canabalism.


Take everything the Spainish write with a grain of salt

Well, weren't the Aztecs the ones who sharpened their teeth, and aren't these things depicted in their pictograms?

In any case, ritual human sacrifice and canabalism is a not uncommon religious right. Eating the brain for strength of will/wisdom and the heart for strength/courage are fairly common tropes. So is eating the penis for virality, but lets kick that one into the long grass.

I see no reason to disbelieve the Spanish, given that our own ancestors did it - hell some of my ancestors were probably Druidic.

[Strike For The South]

There is a marked difference in ritual sacrafice (which the Aztecs certainly did) and the cannabilism which is often attribuited to them

Eating human flesh on the regular will make you sick, very sick

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There is a marked difference in ritual sacrafice (which the Aztecs certainly did) and the cannabilism which is often attribuited to them

Eating human flesh on the regular will make you sick, very sick

True, but eating human flesh and eating human flesh everyday are both still eating human flesh.

[Strike For The South]

True, but eating human flesh and eating human flesh everyday are both still eating human flesh.

indeed

[Greyblades]

Um, you are oversensitive, and I am inclined towards bluntness.

Its the internet its hard to find someone who isn't oversensitive in some way but education is abit of a sore spot for me, sorry.
I was more annoyed at the British education jab, history's complicated and extensive, its annoying to hear someone bash* my education just because my schools didn't cover something yours did. As for the aztecs; I dont remember there being so much as a mention about the aztecs in school, all I learned about them was from this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Angry-Aztecs-Horrible-Histories/dp/0590195697). It makes sense realy, the aztecs were history** long before Britain had any involvment in the mexico area***, there's little reason for Britons to be taught about the pre spanish mexicans when they could be learning about the saxons, romans, vikings, normans etc.


*or at least think he is bashing
**Pun!
***that I know of



I have honestly never met anyone who didn't know about Aztec ritual canabalism.
I knew about the ritual sacrifices and I knew about the cutting out hearts to give to this god or that but I didnt know that they ate the sacrifices.

[Centurion1]

Its the internet its hard to find someone who isn't oversensitive in some way but education is abit of a sore spot for me, sorry.
I was more annoyed at the British education jab, history's complicated and extensive, its annoying to hear someone bash* my education just because my schools didn't cover something yours did. As for the aztecs; I dont remember there being so much as a mention about the aztecs in school, all I learned about them was from this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Angry-Aztecs-Horrible-Histories/dp/0590195697). It makes sense realy, the aztecs were history** long before Britain had any involvment in the mexico area***, there's little reason for Britons to be taught about the pre spanish mexicans when they could be learning about the saxons, romans, vikings, normans etc.


*or at least think he is bashing
**Pun!
***that I know of


I knew about the ritual sacrifices and I knew about the cutting out hearts to give to this god or that but I didnt know that they ate the sacrifices.

You do know phillips went through the same schooling system as yourself right?

[Adrian II]

It wasn't part of the Mexica diet, you know, like you could go into a MzAztec and score a Slaveburger.

It was ritual, like all forms of cannibalism. Aztec society was generally yukky. It's a good thing the Spaniards stamped them out and freed enslaved tribes like the Tlaxcala, who were supportive of the Spaniards from that time on.

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

One suspects that the original topic of this thread has itself been harpooned, sinking without trace.

Time to dispatch it as a sacrifice to the god of Civility.

:closed: