US Spends $20bn a year on airconditioning the desert

[Idaho]

Some US bashing from a well known leftist rag:

US-spends-12.5-billion-a-year-on-air-con-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8601975/US-spends-12.5-billion-a-year-on-air-con-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan.html)

Oil fleets travelling from Pakistan to Afghanistan?

[Vladimir]

Now the latest news from Idaho:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2011/07/13/1724574/600-jaywalkers-25000-cars-1-dangerous.html

How much did this stoplight cost and is it an efficient use of taxpayer money?

[PanzerJaeger]

https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/panzerjaeger/gerpz4dak.jpg

They didn't need no stinkin' AC, and neither do our boys...

However... of all the asinine things our government spends money on, I don't mind some of my tax dollars being used to give our soldiers a bit more comfort. If it is really contributing to IED deaths, it may need to be reconsidered as a luxury not worth the price.

[Adrian II]

How much did this stoplight cost and is it an efficient use of taxpayer money?

1. $140,000
2. No, not a single accident in five years

AII

[Adrian II]

double post, sorry

[gaelic cowboy]

surely they could redesign a base to keep cool using natural airflow or cavity walls etc plus I bet a study of desert nomadic tents could yield solutions too than actually spending money on air-con it's daft, unless it is keeping the server room cool they should get rid of it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

double post, sorryThis website spends $20.000 each year on bandwith wasted on double posts. :no:

[Vladimir]

More seriously,

The Army does waste a LOT of energy but they're getting better. Nowadays the use of newfangled com-pu-ters requires the use of air conditioning to keep them cool. It's also incredibly nice to have when you're wearing ~80 lbs of body armor in ~110 degree heat all day.

[Adrian II]

This website spends $20.000 each year on bandwith wasted on double posts. :no:

You've said so twice before. :juggle:

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

You've said so twice before. :juggle:

AIIB...but that was before they made me moderator. :sweatdrop:


As much as I'd love to, nowadays it is no longer possible for me to waste precious bandwith on thread-derailing spam. :book:

[Major Robert Dump]

How is this news to any of you people?

This has been the case since the start of both wars, and the driving force in the Navy and Marines plan to use alternative fuels. The navy has a pretty realistic goal and is perfectly on track. We have a couple of small FOBs that are 30% solar. They are running ships and flying planes long distances with alternative energy. Google this stuff. We take a casualty for something like every 12 convoys I think, and its exactly why Truck Drivers/Transportation corps have seen more action than any of the infantry or cav units. In 2006-2009 the enlistment bonus for 88m truck drivers was $20,000.

Unfortunately, American soldiers are still Americans and they want the comforts just like everyone else. Do they abuse the plethora of clean water and electricity? Absolutely. But its not just the US soldiers, its also the multinationals and the contractors. Life on some of these FOBs is better than life at home. Do I want soldiers to swelter and suffer? No. Plus, there is a lot of essential equipment that would not work properly if heated. But the resources are abused. A lot. I could leave the light on in my room 24/7 and no one would know any better, and even if they did no one would say anything.

While all these other retards are arguing over oil/gas in terms of global warming, as usual the US military is going to be the catalyst for change once again and will change fuels because its cheaper, its easier and it saves lives. What will be interesting is seeing how Washington DC and its big oil cronies will do in the White House and Armed Forces Committee to try to stifle this progress.

[TinCow]

What will be interesting is seeing how Washington DC and its big oil cronies will do in the White House and Armed Forces Committee to try to stifle this progress.

Well, my government agency just moved into a brand new building last month, and the building was specifically built to LEED standards. In fact, DC is rated as one of the top cities in the US for environmentally friendly offices (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/top-us-markets-ranked-in-second-annual-2011-green-building-opportunity-index-124433018.html). It will take a long time for the government to retrofit their old buildings, but it's pretty much a universal standard in this city now for new construction and renovation. The reason will be familiar to you: it's cheaper. The less agencies have to spend on facility maintenance, the more they can spend on other things.

[Major Robert Dump]

surely they could redesign a base to keep cool using natural airflow or cavity walls etc plus I bet a study of desert nomadic tents could yield solutions too than actually spending money on air-con it's daft, unless it is keeping the server room cool they should get rid of it.

It's far, far more complex than you make it out to be.

And in other news, we spend a billion dollars on water.

- Open Tents don't work in Afghanistan because of the wind.
- Open Tents don't work in Afghanistan because of COIN, which means we hire locals to come onto the base and do everything from clean to serve us dinner, and tents are not secure, and the average soldiers has @10k worth of equipment issued to them, not including their weapon, and we can't have local nationals hob knobbing in our tents where our stuff is sitting out, it needs to be locked in some sort of hard structure.
- As already pointed out, the basic load is @80 pounds or more, depending on your situation and mission. I have had up to 130. I disagree with this as much as the next guy, and would rather be mobile and fast than wear a bunch of crap that will won't save me from a bomb and won't be of any use after a couple shots with a 7.62. If we carried less stuff we would also drink less water, which we easily spend just as much time and resources acquiring and transporting as we do fuel.
- Open tents don't work because of Opsec
- Open tents don't work because of ROE and the TTP of the enemy. They fire mortars and rockets and disappear into the night. Thats how they roll.

Do we have some tents? Yes. But not open. Most of them have been spray foamed.

Anyway, thats just a few reasons tents won't work

How Pakistan plays a part in this is another thread altogether.

[Vladimir]

Well, my government agency just moved into a brand new building last month, and the building was specifically built to LEED standards. In fact, DC is rated as one of the top cities in the US for environmentally friendly offices (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/top-us-markets-ranked-in-second-annual-2011-green-building-opportunity-index-124433018.html). It will take a long time for the government to retrofit their old buildings, but it's pretty much a universal standard in this city now for new construction and renovation. The reason will be familiar to you: it's cheaper. The less agencies have to spend on facility maintenance, the more they can spend on other things.

We moved into a similar building, which, of course means the bathrooms stink of urine due to the no flush urinals. Or maybe it's just because people keep missing them given the low light levels. Whenever someone flushes there is a sound from the drains like water flowing through an open sewer. The first soda of the day is warm because the vending machine is "energy efficient" I'm sorry, what was the original topic?

[Adrian II]

The first soda of the day is warm [...]

Maybe it's connected to those urinal drains. Those bloody Greens will stop at nothing. :coffeenews:

AII

[Tellos Athenaios]

My thoughts, too. After all, ammonia is widely used as coolant in refrigerators.

[gaelic cowboy]

It's far, far more complex than you make it out to be.

And in other news, we spend a billion dollars on water.

- Open Tents don't work in Afghanistan because of the wind.
- Open Tents don't work in Afghanistan because of COIN, which means we hire locals to come onto the base and do everything from clean to serve us dinner, and tents are not secure, and the average soldiers has @10k worth of equipment issued to them, not including their weapon, and we can't have local nationals hob knobbing in our tents where our stuff is sitting out, it needs to be locked in some sort of hard structure.
- As already pointed out, the basic load is @80 pounds or more, depending on your situation and mission. I have had up to 130. I disagree with this as much as the next guy, and would rather be mobile and fast than wear a bunch of crap that will won't save me from a bomb and won't be of any use after a couple shots with a 7.62. If we carried less stuff we would also drink less water, which we easily spend just as much time and resources acquiring and transporting as we do fuel.
- Open tents don't work because of Opsec
- Open tents don't work because of ROE and the TTP of the enemy. They fire mortars and rockets and disappear into the night. Thats how they roll.

Do we have some tents? Yes. But not open. Most of them have been spray foamed.

Anyway, thats just a few reasons tents won't work

How Pakistan plays a part in this is another thread altogether.

Then surely cavity walls are the way to go if you cant use tents.

[Strike For The South]

Clearly some of you have never spent time in this kind of heat

Your opinoins are invalid

[HoreTore]

No army in history has ever been able to use money efficiently.

I contribute it mostly to laughably incompetent logistical officers.

[Major Robert Dump]

Then surely cavity walls are the way to go if you cant use tents.

Thats way too much effort man. When you have a choice to build your own huts out of surplus lumber or wait 7 months for a contractor to do it, your gonna scrounge what you can so you can have a roof. And just because a contractor does it doesn't mean it will be good, primarily because its a profit game and they hire unqualified Afghans to do the work. Back to COIN.

We all know the Army doesn't plan this far ahead. This war didn't start as a green war, and both it and Iraq went heavy on contractors because contractors make sense for short engagements but not for a decade-long affair. I'm not kidding when I say it takes 7 months to get something simple built

[jirisys]

Clearly some of you have never spent time in this kind of heat

Your opinoins are invalid

I have... Many times.

Your opinoin is invalid! My opinoin is valid so... Everyone's opinoin is valid... But so is yours, but then it isn't, and mine is... ad infinitum

~Jirisys ()

[al Roumi]

No army in history has ever been able to use money efficiently.

I contribute it mostly to laughably incompetent logistical officers.

An Army isn't set up to be spend thrift, it will swallow whatever budget it can get.

Blaming loggies is also silly, they just move stuff around and order the next batch from a supplier on a centrally-negotiated contract.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Actually, that is precisely what armies are: spendthrift. Just like any large government program armies are not exempt from a relatively careless attitude towards where the money comes from or what exactly it is spent on. The relatively static way governments budget their funds means that they don't actually have to do work for their allowance, instead they're paid in advance on the assumption that they will carry out their duties. Also what makes this particularly difficult with armies compared to other government programs is that they're not nearly as easily bullied into producing a decent balance sheet for a change.

Turns out the NHS head of IT & head beancounter are useless? Put a moratorium on any deals they signed off. (which incidentally is what happened to the NHS).
Turns out the various chiefs are more concerned with maintaining a large amount of useless junk and rank than with actually managing a war efficiently? Oops... a big reorg is required and good luck with that.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Clearly some of you have never spent time in this kind of heat

Your opinoins are invalidI've just paid top dollar to go swimming in the Gulf of Mexico this September. And not for your omnipresent airconditioning, freezing my poor behind off all day long.

I want heat. A sunstroke. Scorched skin. I'm not in the South until I get my ninety-five fahrenheit with ninety-six humidity.

[Brenus]

"No army in history has ever been able to use money efficiently." What? What about R&R? Soldiers are good in spending money...

[Strike For The South]

I've just paid top dollar to go swimming in the Gulf of Mexico this September. And not for your omnipresent airconditioning, freezing my poor behind off all day long.

I want heat. A sunstroke. Scorched skin. I'm not in the South until I get my ninety-five fahrenheit with ninety-six humidity.

95 is an overnight temp

I know you're just being the wonderful thing that is you but the fact of the matter is this heat incapacitates people and their abilities

The article is nothing more than Northern European tripe assuming that 100 degrees is no different than 80

[Hosakawa Tito]

No army government bureaucracy in history has ever been able to use money efficiently.

I contribute it mostly to laughably incompetent logistical officers politicians and the fools who vote them into office.

Fixed that for ya. My guvmint department gives me a fan and trains us to think cool thoughts.

[HoreTore]

Fixed that for ya. My guvmint department gives me a fan and trains us to think cool thoughts.

Ah yes....

As an example, the government-run Statoil has a much larger and more inefficient bureaucracy than Shell.


......no, wait, they don't. Perhaps the amount of bureaucracy has more to do with the size of a company, rather than its ownership status?

And at any rate, the army is in a league of its own when it comes to ridiculous amounts of aste and inefficiency even when compared to other parts of the government. And it's only logical when logistics is handled by people who came in interested in combat, not moving stuff around. I'd say the army would improve greatly if they moved everyone currently employed in logistics over to regulqr combat units, and hired people who are actually specialized in logistics, to do its logistics.

Ah well. Wasting money and manpower seems to be the army's primary objective...

[Major Robert Dump]

It goes far deeper than logistics. For example, on emight be surprised at the obnoxiously small amount of planes and choppers we make due with here. I'm not gonna give numbers for obvious reasons, but it quite literally can take a week to get fly one person from 1 base to another 30 miles away, and that is with movement requests put in 3 weeks in advance. It's far easier to convoy :(

Lets not forget the loads on contractors who have been doing for 10 years now what privates could be doing.

Lets not also forget the auxilliary costs that go into the war:

- Not a standard war, so loads of money spent on "development" "buying the enemy" and feel good projects
- The US quite literally feeds everyone. Everyone on the base, to include the majority of local nationals who are hired to work on the base. This creates vast amounts of abuse and negelct, and people walk out of the DFACS daily with arms full of food. The US also pays for all the housing, most of the fuel, building materials and so on. I won't go into detail and will save it for my Afghan thread, but lets just say everytime the Polish soldiers strip a latrine of all its fixtures and steal the hot water tanks from the laundry so they can make hot tubs, well, its the US that pays for in both money and inconvenience. I might also mention we feed the Afghan army and police. We spend tens of millions a year giving them HALAL MREs, on top of all the raw goods we send to their remote DFACS. We are building a military here from the ground up, while supporting the militaries and contracting corps from all over the world. Gay.
- Propping up the Afghan currency with money infusions that get pilfered by officials. Lets just say very few tears have been shed by US forces over the death of brother K.

[HoreTore]

To be fair, MRD, my point is based on my experience with the norwegian army. I don't claim to be familiar with the inner workings of the US army.

[Major Robert Dump]

No problem.

I also forgot to mentioned a leadership that is adverse to any and all forms of risk. Like seriously, 1st Cav makes us wear ballistic eyewear on a FOB. In an office. At dinner.

No one wants to take any risks. If we took risks, the war would be over. Instead, we turtle and turtle and turtle, like playing the Orks in Warcraft 3 and building towers. Thats all I can say without getting myself in trouble.

[Beskar]

Some US bashing from a well known leftist rag:

US-spends-12.5-billion-a-year-on-air-con-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8601975/US-spends-12.5-billion-a-year-on-air-con-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan.html)

Oil fleets travelling from Pakistan to Afghanistan?

What Leftist rag?

Only Leftist rag is the Guardian. (and the Morning Star (http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/))

[Shaka_Khan]

I remember the people in Arizona (including me) kept the a/c on 24 hours a day during the summer and the heater 24 hours a day during the winter.

[classical_hero]

I have... Many times.

Your opinoin is invalid! My opinoin is valid so... Everyone's opinoin is valid... But so is yours, but then it isn't, and mine is... ad infinitum

~Jirisys ()https://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6919/5760d1302043008yourargu.jpg

[Major Robert Dump]

I just found out, by the way, that the DOD pays $2.25 per bottle for bottled water produced in Afghanistan.
It's not even shipped across the world. The water is from Asia, and Afghans bottle it. Yay for creating jobs.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Papewaio]

Look at the costs for non-combat equivalents in mining to get a handle on costs of remote sited and wages.

The cost of food in Perth, western Australia is about 30% more because of a couple of factors. One of which is that it is the most remote city in the world perched on the edge of a desert twice as large as Texas. Then add in a mining boom and young kitchen staff can command $100k aus to go work in a mine.

I've worked in Telfar, in the winter in the afternoon it felt cold in the shade when it went down to 35 degrees C (about 95 degrees F off the top of my head). Yet despite the heat, I had to wear steel caps at all times outside a building because it was a minesite. Even though I was exploring for gold a half hours drive from the mine in sand dunes, oh&s demanded that I wore steel caps.

So inane rules and expensive costs are the norm in minesites. So I can see how this would get worse when the job includes IEDs

[Major Robert Dump]

Yes, but it does not help that we are intentionally and willingly paying above-market wages and fees for the sake of helping the conomy. Humanitarian inititative or creating a welfare state with bloated expectations and GDP?

A grown man can make more money serving me dinner in the dining facility than he can owning his own 8 acre farm. An afghan construction worker makes as much as national police man. My interpeter makes more than most ogvernment officials

[Papewaio]

In '99 in Indonesian the local Indonesian exploration staff (essentially labourers and farmers) were earning 50% above the national average. They were better off then farming their own coffee and rubber plantations. Add in that their minesite accomodation had satellite TV, canteen and modern plumbing. These guys on their days off stayed at the mine site rather then go home. It ain't the military it is the ex-pat life.

It is why if you are European in south east asia you are essentially considered for all intents and purposes a millionaire in the eyes of the local populace. It's why you can see fifty, fat and boorish ex pats have young women swarm over them in night clubs there. What I term exchange rate romance.

The problem comes about when the teat that feeds them leaves. Its an addiction that is hard to give up, once people get used to luxury's it can be hard to go back. Maybe this is the best way to pacify a population, but it is also a great way to create unrealistic value system where everyone expects something for nothing. It might turn out for the best though its very hard to figure out cause and effect in the longterm.