US gubmint shutdown + default + subprime sequel?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I am not racist, I just don't like this Kenyan making my decisions. Where was he born anyway? I think he was born in Africa, and we shouldn't have an african as our president. Because it is against the constitution of course. You know it is just like Rush Limbaugh says, Barack the magic negro is going to ruin this country.

I mean is the white house going to start looking like this!?! (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/02/26/calif-mayor-sent-white-house-watermelon-patch-e-mail-quits/)

EDIT: Removed hot linked picture. BG

EDIT: The liberals are trying to paint me as a negro hater now!!!



(http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/02/26/calif-mayor-sent-white-house-watermelon-patch-e-mail-quits/)

[PanzerJaeger]

Obama bashing on a line that frequently wanders WELL into purely racially-based cuts on his character is a common trait of the Tea Party. It's what lands them in headlines constantly.

Play all the rhetoric games in your own head that you please, it doesn't change that fact.

And yet I'm playing by your rules.

I'm still waiting for proof that the Left isn't made up of communist, anti-american, jew haters. My random pictures will not be ignored!!1 :jumping:


If you dislike that portrayal of the Tea Party I propose you take it up with them, rather than spending your time futilely trying to convince people on internet forums with rhetoric circles that they didn't actually hear all that offensive racist rhetoric or see those signs, they were just imagining it.

Wait, now you actually heard offensive racist rhetoric. When? Where? This is fascinating.


That is just one website. I can find a bunch of other websites for liberals and tea partyers that say the same thing. Doesn't mean the group as a whole is all about that.


You can find liberal websites that declare America white nation? POST POST POST.


Thank you for just proving my point.

I'm so confused. But it's fun.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You can find liberal websites that declare America white nation? POST POST POST.

Hold on, I am making it right now, which according to your logic will legitimize the KKK.




I'm so confused. But it's fun.

It is confusing when common sense tries to break down partisan mental walls.

[Koga No Goshi]

And yet I'm playing by your rules.

I'm still waiting for proof that the Left isn't made up of communist, anti-american, jew haters. My random pictures will not be ignored!!1 :jumping:

Oh those people definitely exist on the left. But (replacing communist with fascist) exactly the same thing exists on the right. But we're not talking about wide-tent groups that encompass people from every background in all 50 states and being able to dig up a couple crazies out of either of those very wide tents, we're talking about an almost invariably white middle class and up movement of largely older people who frequently have racist rhetoric and signs at their rallies. You seem to keep forgetting that. Or conveniently ignore it.

I'm sure race has nothing to do with it. The fact that they're white and Obama is black and many of them have signs calling him the Kenyan village idiot and a Muslim is just coincidence.


Wait, now you actually heard offensive racist rhetoric. When? Where? This is fascinating.



You can find liberal websites that declare America white nation? POST POST POST.



I'm so confused. But it's fun.

It's very clear that you are confused. This is something we can agree on.

[PanzerJaeger]

You are trying to make us prove a claim that the Tea Party in its official public statements or in its express charter has said someting racist. We made no such claim. We said that there is most definitely racism in the ranks of the Tea Party movement. I believe that would be a straw man, but I'll be kind and say you were simply inventing or shifting goalposts.

No, I'm not. I was responding specifically to ACIN's claim about the KKK. I don't need a charter, although that would be nice. I need something.. anything of substance.


I don't need to prove anything is in their charter nor do I even need to pull up hard stats to claim there is racism in the Tea Party movement. One sign at one rally is more than enough, but when it's a lot of signs at a lot of rallies, and a lot of rhetoric from a lot of members...

And I don't need any actual proof that the Left is comprised of a bunch of jew hating communists. I also don't need any actual proof that Muslims want to impose Sharia law on the West. I've seen the pictures. :yes:

[Ronin]

I'm still waiting for proof that the Left isn't made up of communist, anti-american, jew haters. My random pictures will not be ignored!!


now I´m curious...which one of your pretty pictures indicates that the american left is anti-american?
from what I saw I would qualify some of those people as anti-government sure.....but that isn´t the same thing.

and btw...are you going for some sort of cognitive-dissonance world record on this thread? if so, good luck man, you can do it!

[Koga No Goshi]

No, I'm not. I was responding specifically to ACIN's claim about the KKK. I don't need a charter, although that would be nice. I need something.. anything of substance.



And I don't need any actual proof that the Left is comprised of a bunch of jew hating communists. I also don't need any actual proof that Muslims want to impose Sharia law on the West. I've seen the pictures. :yes:

If I saw signs all over my town that someone wanted to impose Sharia law, I would probably be alarmed and want to make sure Sharia law wasn't signed in my town or county or state.

But even if I saw such signs in large numbers in my town or county or state, apparently that would be completely invalid grounds upon which to say "there are people here who want to impose Sharia law", according to your logic.

[PanzerJaeger]

Hold on, I am making it right now, which according to your logic will legitimize the KKK.

:inquisitive:

Not at all. It would deligitimize you.


Oh those people definitely exist on the left. But (replacing communist with fascist) exactly the same thing exists on the right. But we're not talking about wide-tent groups that encompass people from every background in all 50 states and being able to dig up a couple crazies out of either of those very wide tents, we're talking about an almost invariably white middle class and up movement of largely older people who frequently have racist rhetoric and signs at their rallies. You seem to keep forgetting that. Or conveniently ignore it.


Or.... or.... you're hopelessly misinformed (http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/Tea-Partiers-Fairly-Mainstream-Demographics.aspx).



PRINCETON, NJ -- Tea Party supporters skew right politically; but demographically, they are generally representative of the public at large. That's the finding of a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted March 26-28, in which 28% of U.S. adults call themselves supporters of the Tea Party movement.

Tea Party supporters are decidedly Republican and conservative in their leanings. Also, compared with average Americans, supporters are slightly more likely to be male and less likely to be lower-income.

In several other respects, however -- their age, educational background, employment status, and race -- Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large.

[PanzerJaeger]

If I saw signs all over my town that someone wanted to impose Sharia law, I would probably be alarmed and want to make sure Sharia law wasn't signed in my town or county or state.

But even if I saw such signs in large numbers in my town or county or state, apparently that would be completely invalid grounds upon which to say "there are people here who want to impose Sharia law", according to your logic.

Large numbers? :laugh4:

You posted six.

There have been hundreds of thousands of Tea Partiers in single events alone.

[Koga No Goshi]

:inquisitive:

Not at all. It would deligitimize you.



Or.... or.... you're hopelessly misinformed (http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/Tea-Partiers-Fairly-Mainstream-Demographics.aspx).



PRINCETON, NJ -- Tea Party supporters skew right politically; but demographically, they are generally representative of the public at large. That's the finding of a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted March 26-28, in which 28% of U.S. adults call themselves supporters of the Tea Party movement.

Tea Party supporters are decidedly Republican and conservative in their leanings. Also, compared with average Americans, supporters are slightly more likely to be male and less likely to be lower-income.

In several other respects, however -- their age, educational background, employment status, and race -- Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large.

LOL the statistics didn't disprove that the Tea Party are largely well off whites. It proved it.

[PanzerJaeger]

LOL the statistics didn't disprove that the Tea Party are largely well off whites. It proved it.

The horror! The Tea Party has roughly the same racial breakdown of the nation. How skewed towards minorities must a group's racial makeup be before it can be considered non-racist? :laugh4:

[a completely inoffensive name]

:inquisitive:

Not at all. It would deligitimize you.

No, now there is a website that is called liberals.org and it talks about how all of us liberals defend how we need to raise taxes and our right ot medicare and taxes, except for anyone that is not white, because it was whites that founded this country and built the social programs in the first place and it is black, hispanics and asians that are draining it.

So now, there are people from all political backgrounds that are talking about white america. So why are you trying to paint the KKK as something completely defined by the rhetoric that is found in all groups? because there is a KK website that says such things? Well now there are website from the left as well that say the same thing. So really you need to give me evidence that every single one of these KKK members hate blacks otherwise you are misinformed about their true character. Give evidence that all of them hate blacks, show me the tapes of all of them admitting it. Otherwise your defense of the KKK being especially racist in anyway is just faith.

[Koga No Goshi]

Large numbers? :laugh4:

You posted six.

There have been hundreds of thousands of Tea Partiers in single events alone.

I don't have the time to sift through hundreds or thousands of youtubes, google images of events and post them all here. And it's pretty obvious that any number of links provided to Tea Party people saying inflammatory things will just be dismissed by you anyway, so why would I waste my time?

[PanzerJaeger]

No, now there is a website that is called liberals.org

No, there isn't. I'll admit it, I copy/pasted. Nonexistent/fake websites don't count. And thus, the fallacy of your KKK comparison stands. :(

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, there isn't. I'll admit it, I copy/pasted. Nonexistent/fake websites don't count. And thus, the fallacy of your KKK comparison stands. :(

GoDaddy is being slow in uploading it.

But seriously, you have now admitted that my KKK comparison is apt if I had actually made the website. So you are now admitting that your logic is flawed because it is absurd to come to the logical conclusion that the KKK isn't a racist organization.

[Ronin]

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/vincent_pt/madAboutSomething.jpg

I´m gonna take this as a lesson and walk away now....

[PanzerJaeger]

I don't have the time to sift through hundreds or thousands of youtubes, google images of events and post them all here. And it's pretty obvious that any number of links provided to Tea Party people saying inflammatory things will just be dismissed by you anyway, so why would I waste my time?

Don't bother. I'm far more interested in advancing the notion that the the Left in America is comprised of a bunch of communist, anti-american, jew hating scumbags based on some random pictures I found on the internet.

I think I'm beginning to like this lowered burden of proof. I can't wait to use this one next time muslims are discussed!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3040/2711102929_68f8f8e524.jpg

[Koga No Goshi]

http://www.teapartynationalism.com/the-reportbriall-of-tea-party-nationalismi/racism-anti-semitism-and-the-militia-impulse

This was a study about the Tea Party's ties to various nationalistic groups in the U.S.

It's all pretty relevant, including various Tea Party figures inviting anti-semitic and other controversial figures onto radio discussions and to events, but in particular I liked:

"In preparation for Tea Party protests held on July 4, 2009, national socialists and other white supremacists created a discussion thread on Stormfront.org, the largest and most widely accessed of the many white nationalist websites.[216] While highlighting the distinction between themselves and the majority of Tea Partiers who were not self-conscious about their own racism, one person argued, “We need a relevant transitional envelop-pushing flyer for the masses. Take these Tea Party Americans by the hand and help them go from crawling to standing independently and then walking towards racialism.”[217]"

Know what Panzer? If your political party has supporters on Stormfront.org, you're pretty much up a creek defending that the Tea Party doesn't have an overtly racist following. The article also mentions how the discussion preparing for the Tea Party event over at Stormfront expressly included a discussion amongst themselves of leaving the racist symbology at home when they went to the event for PR purposes, lol.

But yeah you know, there's crazies in every group. I'm sure over at Stormfront they have big discussion threads about attending Democratic rallies in support of Democratic candidates. Right?



Also since it didn't get past the cranium last time, I already said the right routinely accuses the left of being anti-American at all times, just as a normal, usual part of their rhetoric. So again, and for the third time actually, I fail to see what point you believe you are making. You're saying you can "leap to some conclusion" now that is routinely used in utterly normal every-cycle part of right wing rhetoric about the left. Somehow I have a hard time picturing that during the 8 years of Bush you were running around playing burden of proof games when all the right-wingers were calling us America haters because we opposed the Iraq War or the Patriot Act.

[PanzerJaeger]

GoDaddy is being slow in uploading it.

But seriously, you have now admitted that my KKK comparison is apt if I had actually made the website. So you are now admitting that your logic is flawed because it is absurd to come to the logical conclusion that the KKK isn't a racist organization.

No, I didn't - because it would have been fake. ~:)

Just to be clear as it is late and I'm generally stupid, are you arguing that under my logic the KKK can be denied to be racist because I asked for a higher burden of proof than six random pictures that the Tea Party is racist? Is that the road we're going down?

[Koga No Goshi]

No, I didn't - because it would have been fake. ~:)

Just to be clear as it is late and I'm generally stupid, are you arguing that under my logic the KKK can be denied to be racist because I asked for a higher burden of proof than six random pictures that the Tea Party is racist? Is that the road we're going down?

There are countless examples of racist rhetoric from the Tea Party but you obtusely reject that this is part of the movement.

You also completely sidestepped my question about if the Tea Party is for fiscal responsibility first and foremost then why is it a response to Obama and was not a reaction put together in response to Bush?

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, I didn't - because it would have been fake. ~:)

Just to be clear as it is late and I'm generally stupid, are you arguing that under my logic the KKK can be denied to be racist because I asked for a higher burden of proof than six random pictures that the Tea Party is racist? Is that the road we're going down?

Yes. You cannot ask for objective proof of the thoughts of a group of people. There is no way you can say, oh here is a piece of paper that proves everyone in the KKK is racist and/or has racist thoughts. So when you say, give me proof, you are saying show evidence of the thoughts of millions of people. And by saying that since we can't do that, that the allegation must be false or rejected, the case can also be applied to the KKK that since I cannot prove that every single member (or even a majority) harbors racist thoughts that the KKK thus must not be a racist organization.

But what can be picked up on and demonstrated are the overall tone and language that a group becomes associated with, which reveals the overall characteristic of what the group is, even if it isn't super solid evidence of the kind you find in court. This is where common sense kicks in. When the tone and language of the group repeatedly becomes associated with the kind of stuff I have copy pasta'd in previous posts here, it become evident that the group as a whole has a very racist undertone to it. And this isn't a case of the leftist media shoving certain exposure down our throats, these associations come from the legion of youtube videos and remarks made by those in government who call themselves tea party members/supporters.

[Koga No Goshi]

Yes. You cannot ask for objective proof of the thoughts of a group of people. There is no way you can say, oh here is a piece of paper that proves everyone in the KKK is racist and/or has racist thoughts. So when you say, give me proof, you are saying show evidence of the thoughts of millions of people. And by saying that since we can't do that, that the allegation must be false or rejected, the case can also be applied to the KKK that since I cannot prove that every single member (or even a majority) harbors racist thoughts that the KKK thus must not be a racist organization.

But what can be picked up on and demonstrated are the overall tone and language that a group becomes associated with, which reveals the overall characteristic of what the group is, even if it isn't super solid evidence of the kind you find in court. This is where common sense kicks in. When the tone and language of the group repeatedly becomes associated with the kind of stuff I have copy pasta'd in previous posts here, it become evident that the group as a whole has a very racist undertone to it. And this isn't a case of the leftist media shoving certain exposure down our throats, these associations come from the legion of youtube videos and remarks made by those in government who call themselves tea party members/supporters.

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/17225000/ngbbs48aa4ce318403.jpg

[PanzerJaeger]

http://www.teapartynationalism.com/the-reportbriall-of-tea-party-nationalismi/racism-anti-semitism-and-the-militia-impulse

This was a study about the Tea Party's ties to various nationalistic groups in the U.S.

It's all pretty relevant, including various Tea Party figures inviting anti-semitic and other controversial figures onto radio discussions and to events, but in particular I liked:

"In preparation for Tea Party protests held on July 4, 2009, national socialists and other white supremacists created a discussion thread on Stormfront.org, the largest and most widely accessed of the many white nationalist websites.[216] While highlighting the distinction between themselves and the majority of Tea Partiers who were not self-conscious about their own racism, one person argued, “We need a relevant transitional envelop-pushing flyer for the masses. Take these Tea Party Americans by the hand and help them go from crawling to standing independently and then walking towards racialism.”[217]"

Know what Panzer? If your political party has supporters on Stormfront.org, you're pretty much up a creek defending that the Tea Party doesn't have an overtly racist following. The article also mentions how the discussion preparing for the Tea Party event over at Stormfront expressly included a discussion amongst themselves of leaving the racist symbology at home when they went to the event for PR purposes, lol.

But yeah you know, there's crazies in every group. I'm sure over at Stormfront they have big discussion threads about attending Democratic rallies in support of Democratic candidates. Right?

Really, a 'report' by an NAACP front group littered with demonstrably false claims? You can do a lot better than that.

And since when does StormFront get to dictate who's racist and who isn't? I'm a white, Right-wing male that loves the German military. If they identify me as a potential convert to radical white nationalism, does that make me a radical white nationalist?


Also since it didn't get past the cranium last time, I already said the right routinely accuses the left of being anti-American at all times, just as a normal, usual part of their rhetoric. So again, and for the third time actually, I fail to see what point you believe you are making. You're saying you can "leap to some conclusion" now that is routinely used in utterly normal every-cycle part of right wing rhetoric about the left.

No, I am saying that, based on your reasoning, I can leap to those conclusions because I found pictures on the internet that reinforce them. That is the standard you've established.



Yes. You cannot ask for objective proof of the thoughts of a group of people.

Oh, but you can. There are plenty of people who are overtly racist and don't mind saying as much, like KKK members. When they are not, however, I think the burden of proof is a bit higher than a few pictures on the internet if they are to be labeled racist. That's a powerful word, and it needs some strong backing - not 100% objective proof, but more than has currently been demonstrated. Kind of like:


a legion of youtube videos and remarks made by those in government who call themselves tea party members/supporters.

This is where I'm having trouble. You and Koga have repeatedly referred to the 'large number', 'huge quantity', 'countless examples', and 'legions' of pictures, videos, and now remarks that are out there, but I can't seem to find them. There are lots of videos on youtube of people accusing the Tea Party of racism, but very few that actually show Tea Party racism - many of them showing the same six pictures Koga posted earlier. Coincidence?

I don't need white America pledges, white America platforms, or white-only rules (which are present in every major KKK branch), but I do need something beyond what has been shown so far, especially considering that this is the same Tea Party that supported dozens of black GOP candidates in 2010, rabidly supports Allen West and Tim Scott, and makes up Herman Cain's base.

Are we to assume that these people's racism is so secret that they are willing to vote for black candidates to represent them just to throw you guys off? Crazier things have happened, I guess, but these have to be some of the crappiest racists to ever grace the American political scene. If they're going to follow in the proud footsteps of avowed racist giants like George Wallace and David Duke, they're really going to have to step up their game. I mean, really, voting for black candidates? They ought to be ashamed of themselves! :laugh4:

Or maybe, just maybe, a majority of Tea Partiers are more interested in conservative orthodoxy instead of race. Maybe the signage, as mean and hateful as it is, is not representative of the majority.

As mentioned, there is a burden of proof here if you want to apply labels to a group comprising millions of people. It's certainly not 100% objective proof, but it's more than purely anecdotal evidence. The comparison to the Islamic extremist=/=larger muslim sentiment argument surely cannot be lost on you... Do we really want to start defining groups by their most radical and/or fringe elements?

[Vladimir]

Good job Panzer! :2thumbsup:

However, those two no doubt consider you a NAZI(!!!) so all your posts are invalid.

Well done though.

[Centurion1]

PJ I had to let you take this one. You just cannot argue with some people who want something to be true.

[Koga No Goshi]

Really, a 'report' by an NAACP front group littered with demonstrably false claims? You can do a lot better than that.

And since when does StormFront get to dictate who's racist and who isn't? I'm a white, Right-wing male that loves the German military. If they identify me as a potential convert to radical white nationalism, does that make me a radical white nationalist?



No, I am saying that, based on your reasoning, I can leap to those conclusions because I found pictures on the internet that reinforce them. That is the standard you've established.




Oh, but you can. There are plenty of people who are overtly racist and don't mind saying as much, like KKK members. When they are not, however, I think the burden of proof is a bit higher than a few pictures on the internet if they are to be labeled racist. That's a powerful word, and it needs some strong backing - not 100% objective proof, but more than has currently been demonstrated. Kind of like:



This is where I'm having trouble. You and Koga have repeatedly referred to the 'large number', 'huge quantity', 'countless examples', and 'legions' of pictures, videos, and now remarks that are out there, but I can't seem to find them. There are lots of videos on youtube of people accusing the Tea Party of racism, but very few that actually show Tea Party racism - many of them showing the same six pictures Koga posted earlier. Coincidence?

I don't need white America pledges, white America platforms, or white-only rules (which are present in every major KKK branch), but I do need something beyond what has been shown so far, especially considering that this is the same Tea Party that supported dozens of black GOP candidates in 2010, rabidly supports Allen West and Tim Scott, and makes up Herman Cain's base.

Are we to assume that these people's racism is so secret that they are willing to vote for black candidates to represent them just to throw you guys off? Crazier things have happened, I guess, but these have to be some of the crappiest racists to ever grace the American political scene. If they're going to follow in the proud footsteps of avowed racist giants like George Wallace and David Duke, they're really going to have to step up their game. I mean, really, voting for black candidates? They ought to be ashamed of themselves! :laugh4:

Or maybe, just maybe, a majority of Tea Partiers are more interested in conservative orthodoxy instead of race. Maybe the signage, as mean and hateful as it is, is not representative of the majority.

As mentioned, there is a burden of proof here if you want to apply labels to a group comprising millions of people. It's certainly not 100% objective proof, but it's more than purely anecdotal evidence. The comparison to the Islamic extremist=/=larger muslim sentiment argument surely cannot be lost on you... Do we really want to start defining groups by their most radical and/or fringe elements?

Still haven't explained why if the Tea Party is legitimately about its spoken principles it is a reaction to Obama and not to Bush. You've dodged that twice.

It's also pretty ridiculous that you really think you're on logical high ground here when you simply handwave at anything we actually do present and call it biased.

Also, since it bears repeating:


Yes. You cannot ask for objective proof of the thoughts of a group of people. There is no way you can say, oh here is a piece of paper that proves everyone in the KKK is racist and/or has racist thoughts. So when you say, give me proof, you are saying show evidence of the thoughts of millions of people. And by saying that since we can't do that, that the allegation must be false or rejected, the case can also be applied to the KKK that since I cannot prove that every single member (or even a majority) harbors racist thoughts that the KKK thus must not be a racist organization.

But what can be picked up on and demonstrated are the overall tone and language that a group becomes associated with, which reveals the overall characteristic of what the group is, even if it isn't super solid evidence of the kind you find in court. This is where common sense kicks in. When the tone and language of the group repeatedly becomes associated with the kind of stuff I have copy pasta'd in previous posts here, it become evident that the group as a whole has a very racist undertone to it. And this isn't a case of the leftist media shoving certain exposure down our throats, these associations come from the legion of youtube videos and remarks made by those in government who call themselves tea party members/supporters.

You apparently didn't read this since you simply keep asking for exactly this kind of "proof" over and over again and handwaving away anything else we mention or bring to your attention. There is, in fact, no possible way to provide proof you are asking for--- and, even if we did, you would separate it out from the group as a whole and call it anecdotal or "just one case" or whatever. That's patently obvious from the exchange with you so far.

[Lemur]

However, those two no doubt consider you a NAZI(!!!) so all your posts are invalid.
We went ten pages before Godwin. That's some kind of win for the Org, surely?

I have to concur with Panzer on this one. I was around when Clinton was in office, and there was much the same mainstream hysteria over whether or not he was legitimate as a president. (Note: there is always someone, somewhere declaring that the government is illegitimate. The question is whether or not that becomes a mainstream enough meme to result in, say, impeachment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton) or a continuation of the rhetoric by a public officials (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/apr/27/obama-birth-certificate-timeline/).)

I do not believe the Tea Party is essentially racist. Rather, they are anti-tax and anti-Democrat. Does anyone think the right would be calmer if Hillary had won? Seriously? These are some of the same people who thought it was a fantastic and patriotic act to mock a Dem candidate for having won purple hearts in combat (http://articles.cnn.com/2004-08-30/politics/gop.purple.hearts_1_purple-hearts-kerry-backers-swift-boat-veterans?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS). Some of the same people who campaigned against a triple-amputee war hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Cleland) as unpatriotic.

The fact that President 44 has a funny name and a high melanin count is just bonus for these people. Any democrat would be illegitimate in their eyes.

[Koga No Goshi]

I do not recall claiming that the Tea Party was wholly or even primarily motivated by racism. Which I assume is what you mean by "essentially racist", and is most certainly the goalpost Panzer is using when he's trying to demand proof of millions of people's mindsets or something from the Tea Party charter.

That's a strawman by Panzer which he's using to disprove (in his own mind at least) any noteworthy element of racism to the Tea Party movement, which is most undoubtedly really there.

[Lemur]

disprove (in his own mind at least) any noteworthy element of racism to the Tea Party movement, which is most undoubtedly really there.
Hmm. Two thoughts:

Doubtless there are racists and bigots in every large movement. Are you arguing that there are more racists than usual in the Tea Party? (I'm put in mind of the comedian who said something like, "Being a Republican doesn't make you a racist, but if you're a racist you're probably Republican." Which ignores things like blacks voting for Obama because he's black, but that's meat for a whole 'nother thread.)
Again, do you really think the right would be calmer with any other Dem as president?


-edit-

And Gutmensch, what the heck is up with your siggie? I thought we all avoided animated GIFs out of courtesy and kindness to each other. What are you trying to do, turn this place into MySpace or something? **** man, why not include some auto-playing music while you're at it?

[Koga No Goshi]

Yes, I think the GOP and the DNC, much larger groups by the way, do not have to take down dozens of offensive signs, banners and billboards in the span of a couple of years because they were too widely considered offensive. Whether that's because either group manages its crazy element better and has more expertise with public relations really doesn't change the fact that people who think something like putting Obama's face on a tribal medicine man and calling it Obamacare is perfectly acceptable are apparently big enough in the Tea Party to be having a say in things like their public signs and billboards and websites.

#2

Nope, we're talking about people who, when Hillary was a serious contender, were calling her a "radically far left winger" which is pretty LOL. Of course they were going to eviscerate any Democrat, what does that have to do with pointing out that the Tea Party has a strong racist element and that this is an inescapable part of their public presentation and what frequently gets them headlines? If Hillary were President it would probably be "back to the kitchen" signs from these people, and I'd call that sexist. What's the problem with that?

I don't see what that has to do with anything at all.

[Lemur]

Yes, I think the GOP and the DNC, much larger groups by the way, do not have to take down dozens of offensive signs, banners and billboards in the span of a couple of years because they were too widely considered offensive.
I have no idea what you're talking about (http://newsone.com/nation/newsonestaff2/yup-im-a-racist-t-shirts/). (And yes, I know what irony is.)


Of course they were going to eviscerate any Democrat, what does that have to do with pointing out that the Tea Party has a strong racist element
I think it's kinda important, in that the right would have used any tool available to delegitimize a sitting Dem president. As Panzer said, it has become part of the landscape, although I think he draws a false equivalence between the major parties. There is no way that the Dems are as disciplined, motivated and single-minded as the Repubs when it comes to this sort of thing. Also, the Dems lack a media organ as effective and disciplined as Fox News to disseminate their talking points all day every day, so they fall behind there as well.

If Repubs and Tea Partiers are willing to flirt with racism (http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/tea-party-gop-leader-who-sent-racist-obama-as-a-monkey-email-wont-quit/politics/2011/04/18/18926) in service of delegitimizing a president, that's a very different thing from saying they are acting primarily (or mostly) from a basis of racism.

[Koga No Goshi]

I have no idea what you're talking about (http://newsone.com/nation/newsonestaff2/yup-im-a-racist-t-shirts/). (And yes, I know what irony is.)


I think it's kinda important, in that the right would have used any tool available to delegitimize a sitting Dem president. As Panzer said, it has become part of the landscape, although I think he draws a false equivalence between the major parties. There is no way that the Dems are as disciplined, motivated and single-minded as the Repubs when it comes to this sort of thing. Also, the Dems lack a media organ as effective and disciplined as Fox News to disseminate their talking points all day every day, so they fall behind there as well.

If Repubs and Tea Partiers are willing to flirt with racism (http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/tea-party-gop-leader-who-sent-racist-obama-as-a-monkey-email-wont-quit/politics/2011/04/18/18926) in service of delegitimizing a president, that's a very different thing from saying they are acting primarily (or mostly) from a basis of racism.

When you see the signs and the t-shirts do you deny that there are most definitely people out there who ARE acting primarily (or mostly) from a basis of racism?

What percentage of the Tea Party in general are those types is not something I've bothered to make qualifiers on so I'm not going to respond to people (yourself included, no offense) disagreeing with something I didn't claim. I said you can see this racism quite frequently in Tea Party gatherings and it is, in fact, what they're most infamous/controversial for and constantly in the media for. (Along with the really, really stupid statements by their darlings like Palin or Bachmann.)

Panzer's stance basically seems to be: unless you can prove racism on some unspecified magnitude (the specifics of which apparently reside entirely in Panzer's mind subjectively) then ipso facto it is disproven that there is racism in the Tea Party. That's a rather bizarre bit of hardline ideological lockstep considering how infamous the Tea Party's public image is for EXACTLY that, an overt racist presence in its public displays.

You did say ONE thing we can agree on, however: Panzer, like everyone on the far-right, draws false equivalence whenever the need arises to defend the unjustifiable. "Oh if Fox News and every major speaker and figure for the right wing is using violent rhetoric, and we can find 1 liberal who does, then it's all the same, flip the coin, blah blah blah."

[Centurion1]

When you see the signs and the t-shirts do you deny that there are most definitely people out there who ARE acting primarily (or mostly) from a basis of racism?

What percentage of the Tea Party in general are those types is not something I've bothered to make qualifiers on so I'm not going to respond to people (yourself included, no offense) disagreeing with something I didn't claim. I said you can see this racism quite frequently in Tea Party gatherings and it is, in fact, what they're most infamous/controversial for and constantly in the media for. (Along with the really, really stupid statements by their darlings like Palin or Bachmann.)

Panzer's stance basically seems to be: unless you can prove racism on some unspecified magnitude (the specifics of which apparently reside entirely in Panzer's mind subjectively) then ipso facto it is disproven that there is racism in the Tea Party. That's a rather bizarre bit of hardline ideological lockstep considering how infamous the Tea Party's public image is for EXACTLY that, an overt racist presence in its public displays.

You did say ONE thing we can agree on, however: Panzer, like everyone on the far-right, draws false equivalence whenever the need arises to defend the unjustifiable. "Oh if Fox News and every major speaker and figure for the right wing is using violent rhetoric, and we can find 1 liberal who does, then it's all the same, flip the coin, blah blah blah."

The left is just as hate filled and violent as the right is.

And your point is because you can find some instances of tea partyers yelling racial slurs or holding racist posters the whole movement of millions of people was formed for racist reasons and has racist undertones. I think that all of the people who attacked Bush and called him a Nazi and a baby killer and oodles of other terrible things makes the entire democratic party stink. You know what? Since the Westboro baptist church wants the army out of Iraq and Afghanistan then I now associate all liberals with that group. As well as the black panthers, code pink, and any eco terrorist group on the planet.

[Xiahou]

I think it's kinda important, in that the right would have used any tool available to delegitimize a sitting Dem president.I see to remember liberals trying to delegitimize (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/billpress.column/index.html) Bush (http://www.oilempire.us/stolenelection2004.html) too. It seems that for either party, the most ideologically opposed members of the opposition try to delegitimize them.... go figure.

[Lemur]

I see to remember liberals trying to delegitimize (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/billpress.column/index.html) Bush (http://www.oilempire.us/stolenelection2004.html) too.
In fairness, the 2000 election was extraordinary. The spectacle of the Supreme Court dragging someone over the finish line ... I hope I don't see that again in my lifetime. In 2000 there were some legitimate questions about how the vote played out, in 2004 there were none. Bush won his second term fair and square. Anyone contesting his legitimacy after 2004 was, frankly, insane. (And I didn't see much point to worrying about it in 2000 either, but I'm probably just too laid back.)

This echoes my feelings (http://theweek.com/bullpen/column/217907/the-debt-deals-biggest-losers) about how this whole debt ceiling business played out:

The debt-ceiling debate feels like one of those tragic episodes out of the history of the fall of republics. To gain their point on a budget matter, Republicans did something unprecedented in the annals of American government. They made a bargaining chip out of the public credit of the United States. In a well-functioning democracy, certain threats are just not used, and the threat to force the country into default should rank high on the list of unacceptable threats.

Yet congressional Republicans not only issued the threat, they did so successfully. They have changed the rules of the game in ways that will have ramifications for a long time. Maybe Democrats will copy them. Or maybe Republicans will do it again. Either way, something that was once unthinkable has become thinkable. Any holder of U.S. government bonds has to feel a little less confident of the security of his or her investment after this summer's debt-ceiling episode.

[Papewaio]

The US has cut off it's nose to spite it's face as the saying goes.

If the EU was on a more even keel it would be a rush away from the US dollar to the Euro in contracts for oil, minerals and trade. The apparent silver lining for the US is at the moment the EU is already in a worse situation due to what is happening in the P.I.I.G.S. However the catchs to this thinking are:

1) EU gets it's act together and restructures their economy along more modern, accountable, transparent and long term growth including reasonable deficits and surpluses. The problems in the little piggy countries might lead to a restructure that actually puts the EU in a better long term position.
2) All this bickering has already caused a massive confidence damage in the US Congress maturity. This alone will take the luster out of the AAA ratings until they act together. If they are getting along behind closed doors, show that in public (transparency). From an outsiders point of view it looks like the scene in Blazing Saddles were the guy takes himself hostage... start voting for mature politicians (not age, but wisdom) and start telling them you are upset about it.

Places to save money:
* Get out of Iraq, rebuild and leave Afghanistan in the long term. Make better choices about were DOD money is going... just don't turn off the tap right yet, just target the flow better.
* More importantly restructure the war on drugs to being a health issue and an economic one (what is the net cost to the economy by legalising it vs sending addicts to prison). Make it only the unlicensed dealers who go to jail (make money out of the licensing, and not lose money over the chasing). In other words make it part of big Pharma and get government out of personal choices.
* Invest in aged care. It's one of those things you can't easily do by a call center on the other side of the world (there are components that can btw)...jobs for the young to look after the old.
* Raise the mandatory retirement age. Those who are smart, capable and want to work should be allowed to. After all the lifespan has effectively doubled, why not add ten years to retirement age?

[Koga No Goshi]

The left is just as hate filled and violent as the right is.

What does that have to do with anything we've been saying? At all? Unless you include every member of the entire right hand side of the political spectrum when anyone makes a comment about Tea Party behavior.


And your point is because you can find some instances of tea partyers yelling racial slurs or holding racist posters the whole movement of millions of people was formed for racist reasons

Quote me saying this.


and has racist undertones.

It does if you can see people yelling racial slurs in their crowds.


I think that all of the people who attacked Bush and called him a Nazi and a baby killer and oodles of other terrible things makes the entire democratic party stink. You know what? Since the Westboro baptist church wants the army out of Iraq and Afghanistan then I now associate all liberals with that group. As well as the black panthers, code pink, and any eco terrorist group on the planet.

If the Westboro Baptists showed up at DNC rallies and were not loudly and widely denounced by the DNC then you go right ahead and feel free to make that association.

[Adrian II]

2) All this bickering has already caused a massive confidence damage in the US Congress maturity.

This.

Congress approved a budget and then refused to pay for it. It's like ordering a pizza and refusing to foot the bill, hoping the pizza guy will somehow walk away and forget about it.

In the long run this has done more damage to world markets than anything else.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

This.

Congress approved a budget and then refused to pay for it. It's like ordering a pizza and refusing to foot the bill, hoping the pizza guy will somehow walk away and forget about it.

In the long run this has done more damage to world markets than anything else.

Politicians reflect their voters. Everyone wants stuff now and don't worry how it will be paid for. Get all the benefits from spending the money, and try to blame someone else for finding it. I can think of few Western countries who do not do this.

~:smoking:

[Papewaio]

Well and the ability to speculators to short themselves in time for the bailouts to run out ending July.

The people who've caused a lot of the damage have also profited out of the bailouts... essentially private debt has been moved to soverign debt ie companies to taxpayers.

[Adrian II]

Politicians reflect their voters. Everyone wants stuff now and don't worry how it will be paid for. Get all the benefits from spending the money, and try to blame someone else for finding it. I can think of few Western countries who do not do this.

~:smoking:

I have no doubt that all our woes can be reduced to the Heidelberg catechism.

In the mean time, we should looking for solutions instead of blaming politicians, the greedy rich, the undeserving poor and all of mankind since Adam and Eve. It's not very productive.

AII

[Koga No Goshi]

I have no doubt that all our woes can be reduced to the Heidelberg catechism.

In the mean time, we should looking for solutions instead of blaming politicians, the greedy rich, the undeserving poor and all of mankind since Adam and Eve. It's not very productive.

AII

At least in the case of the U.S. this statement would be pretty naive considering that politicians and the rich are exactly why we got stuck with the horrible deal we did. What can you do when the people you need to get votes from in Congress are going to steadfastly refuse any and every possible solution other than one that says "screw the big picture, we are going to keep the tax cuts"?

[rory_20_uk]

I have no doubt that all our woes can be reduced to the Heidelberg catechism.

In the mean time, we should looking for solutions instead of blaming politicians, the greedy rich, the undeserving poor and all of mankind since Adam and Eve. It's not very productive.

Any solutions coming over? Any Chamberlin-esque moments?

The system of government theoretically works OK, so it is the people that are elected. I can not think of a system that gives political power to those who are intelligent, knowledgeable and place the good of the country above themselves. Let me know if you can.

~:smoking:

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzer's stance basically seems to be: unless you can prove racism on some unspecified magnitude (the specifics of which apparently reside entirely in Panzer's mind subjectively) then ipso facto it is disproven that there is racism in the Tea Party. That's a rather bizarre bit of hardline ideological lockstep considering how infamous the Tea Party's public image is for EXACTLY that, an overt racist presence in its public displays.


Not at all. Quantity has a quality all its own. You've made a lot of exaggerated statements in this thread (and later walked them back (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?136755-US-gubmint-shutdown-default-subprime-sequel&p=2053353782&viewfull=1#post2053353782)) that, if supported, would be ample evidence of large scale Tea Party racism, including:


And this has to do with erasing grassroots "Teabaggers" showing up in large numbers and yelling racial epithets... how?

The Tea Party pretty much earned its reputation as a general reactionary movement of privilege-minded white Americans from how it has behaved, comported itself, AND its political stances. It's not one bit of them taken out of context, it's their entire identity at this point.


You're using some thick blinders if you think the Tea Party movement almost turning into lynch mobs at its large gatherings and yelling racist epithets is merely "disagreeing with a black man's politics."

The problem is that I just can't find the kind of quantity that would paint the Tea Party in this light. Where are the large numbers? Where are the lynch mobs? I've done the Google searches, and I've done the YouTube searches in an effort to find these 'countless' examples of Tea Party racism. I found plenty of articles and videos from the usual suspects speculating about Tea Party racism, many of them using the exact same pictures you pulled off the <1 page of Google images of racist Tea Party signage, but I found precious little primary source material to back up these claims.

Furthermore, the claim that the Tea Party is constantly in the news for racism seems a bit of a stretch as well. Maybe you meant constantly in the leftist blogosphere or on Olbermann? The only time I remember significant mainstream coverage of Tea Party racism was during the height of the healthcare debate when a number of Democratic lawmakers were heckled walking into their offices, and that turned out to be a complete fabrication (http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/mar/20/congressman-claims-health-care-bill-protesters-hur/).

And that fabrication seems to have been tied into a left wing effort to delegitimize the Tea Party (http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/mary-frances-berry-tea-party-not-really-racist-so-what). So pardon me if I'm not entirely convinced by a few pictures on the internet that the Tea Party's 'entire identity' is wrapped up in racism. As I've demonstrated, I can find people with crazy signs at just about any political rally. Those kinds of gatherings draw crazies like flies.

Further complicating your position is the fact that the Tea Party has shown no hesitation in supporting black politicians that espouse their views. The Tea Party sponsored dozens of black candidates during the 2010 election cycle. The only two black members of congress for the GOP are Tea Party candidates (from the deep, rural South, by the way). The first black candidate for the GOP nomination for president since Alan Keyes finds his base in the Tea Party. This is a group of people whose entire identity revolves around racism? Really??

Look, the Tea Party represents the raw underbelly of the American Right. They are idealistic, well-meaning, and highly patriotic people. They are also often naive, misinformed, and reactionary. What they are not, on any significant scale, is a racist movement against the president. There is no doubt that they dislike... hell, hate... President Obama, but that is because he ran and governed (until 2010) as a netroots liberal. If you were around in the '90s, you'll remember that the hatred of Clinton was just as intense.

[Centurion1]

*claps* I'm just going to have you do my arguing. Far fewer infractions this way.

[Strike For The South]

I've never seen anyone win are arguement so convinvingly. Good job PJ

10 points to Gryffindor!

To say that the tea party is a racist organzation is wrong. Trust me I have very low criteria for these things and it's just not there.

[Centurion1]

Trust me I have very low criteria for these things and it's just not there.

QFT

[Vladimir]

To be sporting, Koga has made a lot of contributions to this excellent exchange.

I disagree with him, of course, but am glad he's returned.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I feel as if there have been a few false equivalences thrown around here but whatever.

I would like cent to speak his mind, so I know he is at least using his brain at some point during the day. Wouldn't want it to atrophy because he wants mother PJ to speak for him.

Tea Party isn't a "racist" organization, and I hope I never outright said that (if I did then that is my bad). However to deny racist undertones to it is imo disingenuous. Tea Party is just an extension of the Republican Party taken over from the libertarians under Ron Paul. The Republican Party is not homogenous, they have moderates, Christian bible thumpers of all degrees, business leaders and the hardcore southerner's who like to wave the Stars and Bars and yes, do have resentment at a black man for being president.

The "Race problem" America once had has long passed its nadir (I think that is the correct term) but it takes a while for the remnants of something like that to completely die away. For every few handfuls of businessmen and Christians there is one handful of people like this women:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c-Ijky95dc


Where race obviously is a factor in their decision. Again, I am not saying that the Tea Party was started by bigots here (just Dick Armey a massive, well you know what) but I really don't see how it is possible to just wave it off as if this is imaginary.

[Centurion1]

when an entire mainly white and right wing political movement shows up almost overnight, and it just happens to coincide with the rise of a part-black presidential candidate....excuse me if I can add 1+1 together.
also disagreeing with politics is one thing....to do so by implying that the other guy is not really an American but a Kenyan, or a secret Muslim is a completely different beast.
But I must be mistaken...I saw plenty of coverage on tea party rallies and they are clearly not racist....all those signs must have been a terrible mistake.


P.S. - and if the Imperial Grand Wizard of the local KKK chapter is marching down the street with his face uncovered he is at the very least being honest....that's an advantage over closet cases.
and P.S.2 - Isn´t the fact that in some of those places there exists a local chapter of the KKK telling enough?

I almost forgot. There are KKK chapters in every place of the United States. Including places like Seattle, NYC, LA, etc.

So what exactly are you implying is telling?

Hey you know that BNP is located in Britain. I think that's telling about British people

(demonstrating absurdity of argument)

[Ronin]

I almost forgot. There are KKK chapters in every place of the United States. Including places like Seattle, NYC, LA, etc.

So what exactly are you implying is telling?

Hey you know that BNP is located in Britain. I think that's telling about British people

(demonstrating absurdity of argument)

so you think the fact that there are legally established organizations that support a racist ideology do not indicate the existence of such a current of thought in those places?

then we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

[Ronin]

Tea Party isn't a "racist" organization, and I hope I never outright said that (if I did then that is my bad). However to deny racist undertones to it is imo disingenuous. Tea Party is just an extension of the Republican Party taken over from the libertarians under Ron Paul. The Republican Party is not homogenous, they have moderates, Christian bible thumpers of all degrees, business leaders and the hardcore southerner's who like to wave the Stars and Bars and yes, do have resentment at a black man for being president.

The "Race problem" America once had has long passed its nadir (I think that is the correct term) but it takes a while for the remnants of something like that to completely die away. For every few handfuls of businessmen and Christians there is one handful of people like this women:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c-Ijky95dc


Where race obviously is a factor in their decision. Again, I am not saying that the Tea Party was started by bigots here (just Dick Armey a massive, well you know what) but I really don't see how it is possible to just wave it off as if this is imaginary.

this is an obvious confusion that has been going on in this thread, no one here said that the upper level organization of the tea party are racist, but a lot of the low level support base obviously harbor those kinds of ideas.....and people keep fanning those fires.

I remember this video, and it was a very important contrast point between the more moderate GOP represented by McCain and some of those tea bagger nutjobs, you can almost see McCain thinking "I might have sold out to get the nomination, but I won´t sell out THAT much".

[Lemur]

Going back to the threatened government debt ceiling thing-ma-bob, another Reagan appointee comes out against the extremists (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/06/obama-is-too-good-for-us-charles-fried-on-the-debt-fiasco.html):

When John Boehner at the height of the debt ceiling crisis answered him on the national media he simply did not tell the truth. He said that the president would not compromise, would not take yes for an answer, and wanted it all his own way. But he cannot have forgotten that he had negotiated Obama into far more cuts than Obama and his caucus had wanted, thought wise or even palatable in return for a modest increase in revenue to be achieved by closing egregious and unfair loopholes in personal and corporate taxes. This is the same compromise recommended by the “Gang of Six,” which included the extremely conservative and admirably patriotic Senator Tom Coburn, by the bipartisan Bowles-Simpson group, and by Republican economists like Martin Feldstein. It was the Speaker who, Arafat-like, walked away from that deal because he concluded he lacked the skill or the muscle or the spine to sell it to his own caucus. Let it be said that this compromise included recalculating the cost of living formula for social security—a change every responsible economist recommends—but the equally rigid Nancy Pelosi rejected.