American TV: Alexander the Great not Greek

[Skullheadhq]

Stop the presses! News has just reached me from Americaland that Alexander the Great is, in fact, not a Greek, but a Slav! How could this be? All the history books now have to be rewritten. I wonder how this will impact EBII. All the Greek buildings will have to be replaced with Kremlin-like buildings and the Somatophulakes Strategou would have to be cossacks now, with big, big mustaches. How could this have been overlooked? This means EBI is wrong as well, oh heavens!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_-kh5t0EL4&feature=related

[Kival]

I don't get it. They are saying he's of macedonian nationality which is some very ahistorical term as it is used here but not really wrong and where did you get that he says he was a slav?

[Lysimachos]

Well, to be fair they don't say anything about being a slav. It is fact that he was from Macedonia and the only fault you could find is that they use modern flags for the graphical representation, but I feel like I have to humbly share my opinion that you are overreacting to this.

[JetMonk1]

I don't understand what the point of this thread is, seems like old news.

Also, don't know where you conjured "slav" from.

[The Celtic Viking]

He probably thought they talked about FYROM, and all the drama related to it and Greece.

[Folgore]

They do show the flag of the FYROM, which of course is very very wrong, but I'm sure they've done that out of ignorance rather than historical revisionism. The whole question of applying the modern term nationality to Alexander the Great is equally absurd though.

And I don't think that's American TV with those British accents.

[Populus Romanus]

That is really old news. I saw a thread about that on the TWC from three years ago, I'd say. Also, I would like to add that this whole business about Macedonia's name is really quite silly and a waste of everyone's time. Don't we have more important things to fight over...:rolleyes2:

[moonburn]

nationality´s didn´t existed back then as for the all makedonia/fyrom thingie everyone can take their best guesses

the greek loss of influence with all the crisis around just means that the greek pressingpower is no longer that great the same could/would happen if all of a sudden armenia discovered they had massive oil reserves and the turks where in an economical crisis the size of the greek one

modern demagogy being used to blind people everyone does it and thats the last you will hear from me in this thread

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Alexander the Great was half Macedonian, half Epirote. Were the Epirotes Greek at the time? Or not?

[athanaric]

Let's agree upon the assumption that Alexander III was somewhat Greek. By the way, isn't it hilarious how Greeks today are rooting for Alexander, considering how many of their ancestors were butchered on his orders?

[Sylon]

Let's agree upon the assumption that Alexander III was somewhat Greek. By the way, isn't it hilarious how Greeks today are rooting for Alexander, considering how many of their ancestors were butchered on his orders?

You could say the same thing for many peoples. Most of the Arab world, for example, tends to be rather fond of the conquerors who forged the first Arabian caliphate, despite their supposedly attacking and annexing their ancestors. As another example, the English are quite fond of William the Conqueror, who was a Norman.

[Cute Wolf]

it's FYROM faking publicity once again, of course, we all know that the best slavic bloodline is Jebi the Croatian

[Brennus]

You could say the same thing for many peoples. Most of the Arab world, for example, tends to be rather fond of the conquerors who forged the first Arabian caliphate, despite their supposedly attacking and annexing their ancestors. As another example, the English are quite fond of William the Conqueror, who was a Norman.

Good point!

[vartan]

Let's agree upon the assumption that Alexander III was somewhat Greek. By the way, isn't it hilarious how Greeks today are rooting for Alexander, considering how many of their ancestors were butchered on his orders?
For sure. Some of the old Greats were quite the mass murderers, at times upgrading to genocidal. I suppose if they had the modern lingo of So Cal they'd annihilate a whole people and tell their second-in-command, "Now that's what's up!"

[SD1987]

Obviously British and not American, kind of a bogus question.

[Ca Putt]

I wonder what woul've happened if the Bloke had been a Historian^^ now that would've resulted in a fun discussion

[Skullheadhq]

I wonder what they would've done if he said he was a Macedonian, would the quiz then say he was Greek? Just to keep the money to themselves? If so, that is a very clever question.

[NuBee4ever]

The guy could've even argue that at the time of Alexander's birth the very idea of nation was foreign to them.

He probably saw himself a member of his people not a citizen of his country.

[vartan]

It's pretty funny to see an actual game show imposing the concept of the modern nation-state on antiquity. Absurdly hilarious. And to top it off, they even have a little graphic logo of the flag accompanying the nation names! Just marvelous!

[fomalhaut]

Pointless nationalistic squabbling applied to a point in time where the concept of westphalian nationality/sovereingty was a flicker in the eyes of national politics

[CaesarAugustus]

It is funny how the host said Alexander was born in Pella, apparently unaware of the fact that Pella is located in modern-day Greece...

[Marcus Darkstar]

It is funny how the host said Alexander was born in Pella, apparently unaware of the fact that Pella is located in modern-day Greece...

Why is this all dicussiing of imposing modern day national ideals on antiquity happening in the first place.

Alexander the great was born in the ancient kingdom of Macedon not one of the greek city states to the South. Before Macedon conqured their greek asses they considered Macedon a barbarian kingdom or close to one. That said Alexander beniftted from greek tutors and Macedon did assimulate alot of greek culture even before the conquest to the south. Regardless Alexander the Great was born in the kingdom of Macedon aka making him Macedonian. Since there was no greek nation before then to be a national of aka no nationalilty only culture.

You guys are just a bit too cynic sometimes.

[Sapper]

You could say the same thing for many peoples. Most of the Arab world, for example, tends to be rather fond of the conquerors who forged the first Arabian caliphate, despite their supposedly attacking and annexing their ancestors. As another example, the English are quite fond of William the Conqueror, who was a Norman.

The English of course have a long history of bringing in "outsiders" as their rulers: James VI of Scotland in 1603 after Elizabeth I, the Dutch William of Orange in 1689 following the Glorious Revolution, the 'German' George, Elector of Hannover in 1714 after Anne. The current House of Windsor only adopted the name during the Great War when George V thought that the House of Sake-Coburg-Gotha sounded a bit too German!

[Sapper]

The English of course have a long history of bringing in "outsiders" as their rulers: James VI of Scotland in 1603 after Elizabeth I, the Dutch William of Orange in 1689 following the Glorious Revolution, the 'German' George, Elector of Hannover in 1714 after Anne. The current House of Windsor only adopted the name during the Great War when George V thought that the House of Sake-Coburg-Gotha sounded a bit too German!

Oooops! SaXe-Coburg-Gotha of course. Not much Japanese influence in the British Royal Family as far as I know!

[Ca Putt]

Alexander the great was born in the ancient kingdom of Macedon not one of the greek city states to the South. Before Macedon conqured their greek asses they considered Macedon a barbarian kingdom or close to one. That said Alexander beniftted from greek tutors and Macedon did assimulate alot of greek culture even before the conquest to the south. Regardless Alexander the Great was born in the kingdom of Macedon aka making him Macedonian. Since there was no greek nation before then to be a national of aka no nationalilty only culture. the difference between ancient macedon and FYROM is heavily discussed tho in this forum the doctrine is that FYROM is not a successor state of ancient macedon. The Quiz show "claims" that alexander the great came from FYROM with the explanation that he was born in Pella an agument that actually supports that he was "greek". Modern greece actually includes a province named macedonia(with Pella) which covers what you could call the heartland of ancient macedon. So the answer Greece would have been correct, when you play it "their" way.
If you're a nit pick like we are the Correct answer would be that the question is invalid as many before me already stated.

You know all this macedon - FYROM thing would be much easier to discuss if the english language would have two different words for them^^
In german you have ancient "Makedonien" (which is also the name of the modern greek province) and modern "Mazedonien", much better if you ask me :)

[bobbin]

The question was "what nationality was Alexander" so the answer of Makedonian was entirely correct, there was no state called "Greece" back then but there was one called Makedonia, and he was from it. This has no relation to any modern day nation, the whole argument over who "owns" the name is a bit silly IMO, the only difference between people in the FYROM and Greek Makedonia is that they speak different languages, both are equally descended from the Makedones (and other peoples that carry less fame).

The only mistake they made was putting up the modern FYROM flag to represent Makedon, which is almost undoubtedly an simple mistake and not a claim that the FYROM is a continuation of Makedon.

[jirisys]

The question itself, "What NATIONALITY" is just bogus, because he would be greek in modern borders, ottoman in century-old borders or roman in those borders. There were no nation-states, they were city-states. So the correct question would be either "In what city was Alexander born?" or "What was the name of the kingdom Alexander was born in?".

Apart from that, the FYROM flag is just silly, both Pella, and the Makedonian kingdom did not have a flag that we have ever discovered.

~Jirisys ()

[Maeran]

Happily you're all a bit more historically sophisticated than the 2nd rate quiz show you're criticising. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.

I was going to just leave the William the Conqueror stuff alone, but since it has been responded to I shall say; although the schoolbook history acts as if he just got crowned after Hastings amid much rejoicing, the general English sympathy seems to lie with Harold. Any time spent near Hastings (and Battle, the town nearer the actual site) makes this abundantly clear.

[vartan]

The question itself, "What NATIONALITY" is just bogus, because he would be greek in modern borders, ottoman in century-old borders or roman in those borders. There were no nation-states, they were city-states. So the correct question would be either "In what city was Alexander born?" or "What was the name of the kingdom Alexander was born in?".

Apart from that, the FYROM flag is just silly, both Pella, and the Makedonian kingdom did not have a flag that we have ever discovered.

~Jirisys ()
Just because you choose a municipal analytical framework does not mean that that's the correct or only frame. And Ottoman/Greece/Roman were not city-states. Two of them (Rome/Ottoman) were empires of antiquity and medieval times and the third (Greece) is a country that became independent a couple of centuries ago.

EDIT: Besides, like bobbin mentioned already in post #26, the guy was the ruler of Macedon, so it only makes sense to say he was a Macedonian, just like one would refer to the Antigonids as Macedonians.

[Saldunz]

The question was "what nationality was Alexander" so the answer of Makedonian was entirely correct, there was no state called "Greece" back then but there was one called Makedonia, and he was from it. This has no relation to any modern day nation, the whole argument over who "owns" the name is a bit silly IMO, the only difference between people in the FYROM and Greek Makedonia is that they speak different languages, both are equally descended from the Makedones (and other peoples that carry less fame).

The only mistake they made was putting up the modern FYROM flag to represent Makedon, which is almost undoubtedly an simple mistake and not a claim that the FYROM is a continuation of Makedon.

You could argue that the other mistake was stating that his birthplace was in modern Macedonia. Pella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_(modern)) is in fact part of modern Greece.

In any case, I'm pretty sure the question just confused ethnicity with nationality. A lot of people make that mistake all the time.

[Hax]

Interestingly, the Young Ottomans initiated a movement in which every subject of the Ottoman state, regardless of religious or ethnical background was automatically an Ottoman citizen. The concept of nationality did exist in the Ottoman Empire, but only fairly late, and only after European (in particular French) influence.

[James Purefoy]

The question was "what nationality was Alexander" so the answer of Makedonian was entirely correct, there was no state called "Greece" back then but there was one called Makedonia, and he was from it. This has no relation to any modern day nation, the whole argument over who "owns" the name is a bit silly IMO, the only difference between people in the FYROM and Greek Makedonia is that they speak different languages, both are equally descended from the Makedones (and other peoples that carry less fame).

A dubious statement at best.

The Slavic invasions of the 6th century are the defining element of "modern macedonia". Also, its land coincides with ancient Paionia, which simply shares a border with ancient macedonia proper, so it's difficult to see much if any genetic connection between modern "macedonians" and the ancient ones.

Add to it the fact that the slavic speakers further south (i.e. the ones living in the ancient macedonian homeland) chose to migrate to Bulgaria in an exchange of populations with Greece in the early 20th century then Bulgaria has more of a potential genetic connection to ancient Macedonia than modern macedonia.


Personally I find the arguments based on genetics to be in poor taste. I think it's more of a cultural question, and there is simply no debating in that area.

[Arjos]

Alexandros was an Argeades, that's all he was...

[jirisys]

Alexandros was an Argeades, that's all he was...

“Alexander, father of Perdiccas, and his forebears first settled and ruled a Macedonia
alongside the sea, having driven by battle the Pierians from Pieria who later occupied
Phagres and other places below Mount Pangaeum beyond the Strymon river. And they also
drove the Bottiaeans from the region called Bottiaea; they now live as neighbors of the
Chalcidians.”

-Thukydides, 2.99. 2-3

~Jirisys (Alexander the First... Huh, I got me an idea)

[Sylon]

The issue is, as I see it, not because Alexander is a historical figure claimed by both countries, but because he is the historical figure claimed by both countries, a veritable behemoth in the annals of history, rivaled only by the likes of Caesar and Napoleon. This considered, the nationalistic fury displayed by both sides is not a result of some Balkan squabbling mentality or any suchlike.

To draw on a parallel situation, suppose Italy were to claim Napoleon as one of their national heroes; seeing as he was born in Corsica, which is historically closer to Italy than it is to France. The resulting anger and outrage on both sides would make this conflict seem insignificant.

[Arjos]

Corsica was Genoese territory, then was Franco-Ottoman, after independent and in the end French...
What was Napoleon? Italy didn't even exist at that time...
To me all these matters are much like the many "what if...", this is all mental masturbation...

[vartan]

this is all mental masturbation...
So much win. Here's to you, my elite Celtic warrior. :balloon2: