This is why we separate church and state

[Lemur]

'Cause when a single church gets too cozy with a government, bad things happen (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0720/breaking37.html?via=mr). Not just to the state, but to the church. Would the Irish Catholic Church have gone so badly off the rails if it hadn't been tacitly protected by the elected government? Doubtful.

"The rape and torture of children were downplayed or ‘managed’ to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and ‘reputation’.

"Far from listening to evidence of humiliation and betrayal with St Benedict’s “ear of the heart” . . . the Vatican’s reaction was to parse and analyse it with the gimlet eye of a canon lawyer. . . . This calculated, withering position being the polar opposite of the radicalism, humility and compassion upon which the Roman Church was founded."

"The revelations of the Cloyne report have brought the Government, Irish Catholics and the Vatican to an unprecedented juncture," the Taoiseach said.

"It’s fair to say that after the Ryan and Murphy reports Ireland is, perhaps, unshockable when it comes to the abuse of children. But Cloyne has proved to be of a different order.

"Because for the first time in Ireland, a report into child sexual-abuse exposes an attempt by the Holy See, to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign, democratic republic . . . as little as three years ago, not three decades ago. And in doing so, the Cloyne Report excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism . . . the narcissism . . . that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day."

[rory_20_uk]

If you want to be a pure Christian - be a Quaker.

If you want to join a historic club initially set up to serve the senior figures of the old Roman Empire, become a Catholic.

~:smoking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

TDs call for cutting of diplomatic ties with Vatican

THE VATICAN had, at its worst, shielded paedophiles, Independent TD John Halligan claimed.

Mr Halligan, who represents Waterford, said the Government should break off diplomatic relations with the Vatican, expel the papal nuncio, strip his office of the title of Dean of the Diplomatic Corps and recall the Irish Ambassador.

“If any foreign government conspired with Irish citizens to break the law here the ambassador of the country in question would be expelled. In this case, the Vatican, a sovereign state, has refused to co-operate with the investigation into a criminal conspiracy against children here.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0721/1224301063834.html



Ohlala, members of the Irish parliament contemplating the cutting of diplomatic ties with Rome. :balloon2:

As well Ireland should. A foreign state ought not conspire against Ireland in a bid to torture Irish children, nor frustrate an inquiry about it in the sovereign Irish republic.

[Ronin]

to quote a Doug Stanhope joke:

"to be perfectly honest....with all the crap that a priest is pumping into a child's head, his **** should be the least of your worries".

[Banquo's Ghost]

The provocation is enough for us to invade Vatican City, remove the terrorist theocracy there and install Bertie Ahern as pope on the basis he is only marginally less crooked, but he's our crook.

Ten years of nation building should be about the accepted norm for former theocracies. Now, where did we put the coracle Irish Navy?

[PanzerJaeger]

I'll save Reenk the trouble.

Haters gonna hate.

Discussion over.

[TheLastDays]

Actually it also happens in countries where the church isn't that close to government anymore, i.e. here in Austria...

[Lemur]

Actually it also happens in countries where the church isn't that close to government anymore, i.e. here in Austria...
I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Ireland is a special case in terms of scale and awfulness.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Ireland is a special case in terms of scale and awfulness.And special considering the central role of the Church in Irish history and society. Not all of which negative, even I will admit. The church has both preserved Ireland and stifled it, the final verdict open to personal preference.

The Irish republic has been a virtual theocracy for most of its existence. The tremendous changes in Ireland in the past two decades coming to the fore, being played out, in the abuse case. Who'd have thought, twenty-five years ago, that Irish TD's would openly call for a severence of diplomatic ties with the Vatican? The Pope, John F. Kennedy, and Jackie Charlton, these were once the Holy Trinity of Irish aspiration, the national identity of a country. Apart from the sickening abuse, this is also about the momentuous change that has taken place in a mere two decades, a country emancipating itself from destitution and civil war and theocracy all at once. Not a thousand bailouts detract anything from that.

:balloon2:

[Adrian II]

I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Ireland is a special case in terms of scale and awfulness.

I'm afraid Romania is a better candidate. Both communist and post-communist Romania have been hell for many children. I'm not going to go all Google on your ass, there is an abundance of material about child abuse in Romania. The point is that all those years there has been no church around to put the blame on. The hierarchical, secretive nature of Romanian society under communism and its successors is to be blamed.

AII

[Lemur]

Romania
I am too afraid to Google. Cruelty to children — even just reading about it — puts me off for the whole day. I'll take your word for it, though, as well as your diagnosis. Secrecy and concentrated power make for evil, evil things.

[HoreTore]

Seperate state and church?

Shouldn't we start seperating priestly penises from choir boy bums instead?

[TheLastDays]

Shouldn't we start seperating priestly penises from choir boy bums instead?

We definitely should. Priests doing things like this are among the people who make it the hardest for me to keep to my non violent way of life.

I really don't know much about child abuse in other countries, or rather the extent of it, because, just as Lemur, I am not keen on reading reports about it but I do know it's pretty bad here in Austria as well...

[gaelic cowboy]

The big laugh is that in law and whatnot church and state were separate, but when everyone decides it is fine to ignore such a thing then bad things happen.

Kenny accuses Pope of playing down rape, torture of children (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/kenny-accuses-pope-of-playing-down-rape-torture-of-children-2827376.html)


TAOISEACH Enda Kenny yesterday delivered a historic condemnation of the Vatican for attempting to cover up the sexual abuse of children.

In an unprecedented departure from previously diplomatic church-State relations, Mr Kenny directly accused the Catholic hierarchy of down-playing the rape of children to protect its own power and reputation.

Mr Kenny delivered a hallmark Dail address on behalf of the Government. He highlighted how the recent report into abuse in the Cloyne diocese highlighted the "dysfunction, disconnection, elitism . . . the narcissism . . . that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day".

He said: "The rape and torture of children were downplayed or 'managed' to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and 'reputation'."

Responding to Mr Kenny's speech, an emotional Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Diarmuid Martin, later described some of his fellow bishops as being part of a "cabal" who refuse to recognise the rules of the church.

And he called for the Catholic Church's child abuse watchdog to be given powers to compel bishops to co-operate with audits into dioceses.

Uncompromising

The uncompromising tone of Mr Kenny's speech is certain to send shockwaves through the Catholic hierarchy and the Vatican. Ireland has traditionally had a subservient relationship with the Holy See.

It will also be widely welcomed by victims of clerical abuse, who have reacted with dismay to Rome's muted denials that clergy were told not to report abuse claims.

After delivering the strongest speech in his tenure as Taoiseach -- and possibly his career -- Mr Kenny spoke passionately about how "the revelations of the Cloyne Report have brought the Government, Irish Catholics and the Vatican to an unprecedented juncture".

"Clericalism has rendered some of Ireland's brightest, most privileged and powerful men, either unwilling or unable to address the horrors cited in the Ryan and Murphy reports," he added.

Mr Kenny hit out at the Vatican's reaction to the harrowing evidence given by victims of clerical abuse, which he said was "parsed and analysed by a canon lawyer".

The Taoiseach said he agreed with Dr Martin that the church needed to publish all similar reports as soon as possible.

Speaking afterwards, Dr Martin appeared to fight back tears as he spoke of how he was angry, ashamed and appalled by the behaviour of bishops who shielded abusers from gardai.

"I find myself today asking ... can I be proud of the church, what I am seeing, I have to be ashamed of these things and I have to be ashamed because of what is being done to victims and what has been done to people in the church," he said.

"Those who felt they were able to play tricks with norms, they have betrayed those good men and so many others in the church who are working today and I am angry, ashamed and appalled by that," he added.

Referring to the country's bishops, Dr Martin said he hoped they could be trusted to be honest in their dealings with Ian Elliott, the chief executive of the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church.

But he said if this was not the case, the State should step in.

"If there is somebody there that is not prepared to be honest, then they will only be discovered if there is an audit that has the powers to be invasive.

"Ian Elliot has moral power but if there are people who are not acting morally, then moral power will not be enough," Dr Martin said.

- Fionnan Sheahan and Kevin Keane

Irish Independent

When you contrast Kenny and Bertie in there reaction to clerical abuse there is no comparison, De Bert actually used taxpayer money to bail the church from previous abuse cases.

[Vladimir]

Anyone need an antipope?

[Reenk Roink]

I'll save Reenk the trouble.

Haters gonna hate.

Discussion over.

You have to put an image though. :wall:

Also, with the massive Catholic population, a big picture of a pilgrimage at the Vatican superimposed with COME AT ME BRO is also quite good. :2thumbsup:

[gaelic cowboy]

The Cloyne report - main findings (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0713/breaking47.html)

irishtimes.com - Last Updated: Wednesday, July 13, 2011, 15:07
* The Vatican was “entirely unhelpful” to any bishop who wanted to implement procedures for dealing with allegations of child sexual abuse in the Irish church.

* The response of the Diocese of Cloyne was “inadequate and inappropriate".

* Primary responsibility for the failure to implement agreed child sexual abuse procedures lies with then-bishop of Cloyne John Magee.

* Bishop Magee "took little or no active interest" in the management of clerical child sexual abuse cases until 2008, 12 years after the framework document on child sexual abuse was agreed by the Irish Bishops' Conference.

* That some child sexual abuse allegations were not reported to gardaí was the diocese’s “greatest failure”.

* There were 15 cases between 1996 and 2005 which “very clearly” should have been reported by the diocese, of which nine were not.

* Given the diocese’s knowledge of clerical sexual abuse and its effects on complainants it was wrong of the diocese not to put in place a proper support system for complainants.

* The response of health authorities was “adequate”, but the commission adds it is not convinced the State’s laws and guidelines are sufficiently strong and clear for child protection.

* The report is largely complimentary about the role of gardaí, although it does raise concerns about the force’s approach in three cases.

Is anyone really surprised anymore these Bishops dont live in the real world at all.

[Kralizec]

This is what happens when the state abets, or turns a blind eye towards unbridled papistry :no:

[/protestant]

[ICantSpellDawg]

The Catholic Church is great. They made a huge mistake with how they had handled the preservation of their "reputation". In hindsight, none of those decisions went so well for our reputation. I'm a Catholic, people who hushed up about these abuses should be ashamed of themselves and if they aided any felons should be in jail. but I'm a fan of the church, and most of you proddies are just looking for digs at an otherwise great church. Enda Kenny was right to say what he said. The church is in need of perpetual counter-reformations. Changes from within the universal church, rather than abandoning it and engaging in pagan protestant devil worship.

I'm not entirely sure who in their right mind put Italians in charge of anything, but I digress..

[Lemur]

I'm a fan of the church, and most of you proddies are just looking for digs at an otherwise great church.
Reminds me of a quote from The Bad Popes (http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Popes-Sutton-History-Classics/dp/0750933372), a book I read ages ago. I've lost the book somehow, but there was a wonderful quote from a 16th century theologian, responding to the rampant corruption, cronyism, murders a whoring going on in Vatican City. All of this proved that the Papacy was a direct expression of God's will, wrote the man, because any mortal institution would have collapsed under the weight of so much sin.

[PanzerJaeger]

You have to put an image though. :wall:

Of course. :shame:

https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/panzerjaeger/5008_9c00_420.gif

[Adrian II]

Communism is great. They made a huge mistake with how they had handled the preservation of its "reputation". In hindsight, none of those decisions went so well for our reputation. I'm a Communist, people who hushed up about these abuses should be ashamed of themselves and if they aided any felons should be in jail. But I'm a fan of Communism. I'm not entirely sure who in their right mind put Stalin in charge, but I digress..

Fixed it for ya.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm not entirely sure who in their right mind put Italians in charge of anything, but I digress..Actually, the Vatican put a German in charge of handling abuse cases. This hardliner did such a good job of protecting the church against the tortured children, they elected him pope.

That sort of thing explains the unprecedented harsh language of the Irish taoiseach, who in one single adress used more, and harsher, terminology than I have used in all my posts at the .org.

[Furunculus]

you furriners get yourselves into all kinds of pickles, and thus justify all manner of desperate measures to prevent crisis "x" ever happening again.

fair enough, but we will continue to cope with monarchies and established church's quite successfully, albeit with a smugly understated arrogance. ;)

[Louis VI the Fat]

you furriners get yourselves into all kinds of pickles, and thus justify all manner of desperate measures to prevent crisis "x" ever happening again.

fair enough, but we will continue to cope with monarchies and established church's quite successfully, albeit with a smugly understated arrogance. ;)Ain't that the truth. Once again, the world is forced to admit to the superiority of Pola...Britain, where nothing ever goes wrong and which is immune to the ills that plague the rest of the world. :2thumbsup:


Child abuse has gone unchecked in the Church of England for decades amid a cover up by bishops, secret papers have revealed.

Information that could have prevented abuse has been "lost or damaged", concerns about individuals have been ignored and allegations have not been recorded. It means that the Church has no idea how many paedophiles are in its midst.

Lawyers warned last night that the Church faces a crisis as catastrophic as the one that engulfed the Roman Catholic Church and cost it millions of pounds in damages.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566826/C-of-E-child-abuse-was-ignored-for-decades.html



Shhh.....don't let the British nationalists find out.... :creep:




To which one could add, the Catholic Church had free reign in Ireland owing to its singular stranglehold on Irish society. This itself was the result of the sordid dealings of the big island in the small island next door. A civil, political Irish society with better means to defend itself from Rome has never been able to develop, has always been supressed by Britain.
Nothing to be smug about for Britain here, rather another one to add to the list of ills Britain has brought to its neighbour.

[Slyspy]

That's right, it's all our fault. The white man's burden!

[Louis VI the Fat]

That's right, it's all our fault. The white man's burden!No it's not. It's just not something to be smug about, violently destabilising a smaller country only to smugly rub in you are so much more stable.


Even the British queen realises there is a history here. Not all of it bad, but with many things one wishes had been done differently, or not at all.


The story is: the Catholic Church preserved Irish culture in colonial times, became its centre. The Church gained a very dominant, favourable position in Irish life as a result, both psychologically and politically and socially. As a result, the Church has been able to operate with virtual impunity. Its absolute power corrupted. Hence the depth of the depravity of the Church's dealings with Irish children. The colonial repression of Irish civil and political life led to Irish social, psychological impotence towards Rome, which is a direct cause of the torture of Irish children.
This is not to say the Englishman needs to be ridden with guilt for all eternity, nor that Ireland should point to London for all of its ills. In fact, I think many of Ireland's erstwhile problems have been the result of too much history, too much looking backward. It does mean though that English smugness about some social ills in Ireland is unwarranted, as much as a perpetrator should not be too smug about his being unafflicted by the psychological problems of his victim.
What's more, what we are witnessing here, is the very emancipation of Ireland from the Church. England already controls its church. Ireland is now moving towards that too. That is pretty much the very topic of this thread, the establishment of Irish political dominance over the Church.

[Vladimir]

Louis is giving me fond memories of Imperial Russia. :smug:

Is state dominance of the church what's important or is it subjecting clergy to state authority? Controlling the church increases the power of the state. Subjecting its members to the rule of law is different.*

It's all about people.

Yes, I'm using the minuscule "c" intentionally.

[gaelic cowboy]

you furriners get yourselves into all kinds of pickles, and thus justify all manner of desperate measures to prevent crisis "x" ever happening again.

fair enough, but we will continue to cope with monarchies and established church's quite successfully, albeit with a smugly understated arrogance. ;)

I guess that thread on the News of the World has nothing to do with unhealthy governmental connections, lest we think it is new Gordan was doing it back in the Sudan in the 19th century when he decided to drag the UK in to kill the natives.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The story is: the Catholic Church preserved Irish culture in colonial times, became its centre. The Church gained a very dominant, favourable position in Irish life as a result, both psychologically and politically and socially. As a result, the Church has been able to operate with virtual impunity. Its absolute power corrupted. Hence the depth of the depravity of the Church's dealings with Irish children. The colonial repression of Irish civil and political life led to Irish social, psychological impotence towards Rome, which is a direct cause of the torture of Irish children.
This is not to say the Englishman needs to be ridden with guilt for all eternity, nor that Ireland should point to London for all of its ills. In fact, I think many of Ireland's erstwhile problems have been the result of too much history, too much looking backward. It does mean though that English smugness about some social ills in Ireland is unwarranted, as much as a perpetrator should not be too smug about his being unafflicted by the psychological problems of his victim.
What's more, what we are witnessing here, is the very emancipation of Ireland from the Church. England already controls its church. Ireland is now moving towards that too. That is pretty much the very topic of this thread, the establishment of Irish political dominance over the Church.

That it should take a Frenchman to cut to the chase.

:bow:

[ICantSpellDawg]

The church has gotten better over 2 thousand years and continues to do so. The less temporal authority that the church has the better. I think that most Catholics, like most adult children, would prefer a parent who guided them towards the right path rather than dragged them there after knocking them unconscious. They definitely wouldn't prefer that parent to be a child molester. The child sex scandal has exposed an inhuman and terrifying angle of the Church, and the problem should be erradicated. Until it is erradicated, the Church should do its pennance, as it is now doing.

[Adrian II]

That it should take a Frenchman to cut to the chase.

Frenchmen make excellent doormen and waiters. And great fillings, too. You should try thinly sliced Frenchman on toast with grated cheese or mozzarella, some virgin olive oil and a few leaves of basil. Five minutes in the oven, marvellous for those lazy Sundays.

Louis, however, is a Texan.

AII

[Watchman]

Huh. Our state church has been quite well-behaved AFAIK, it's the assorted fringe yahoos outside it that cause trouble and worries. And molest the kids in the fine tradition of introverted loony cults.

...then again it might help that ours is very much a Protestant one and for most intents and purposes a wholly owned subsidiary of the State. Also means our clergy can legitimately go get married, which one imagines rather helps prevent them developing questionable urges on account of gross sexual frustration. (Yet another of the Swedish legacies, that state of affairs; the Vasas by and large turned the Church into an auxiliary of state governance and adminstration - and while they were at it, propaganda - back around the pike-and-shot days.)

That celibacy bit has to be approximately the single most practically problematic issue in Vatican's admittedly long list of Dubious Stuff. Small wonder that until rather recently the clergy used to shamelessly violate it on a massive scale, which no doubt helped keep them off these more... unsavory hang-ups.