Who was innocent [Archive]

Fragony

07-31-2011, 10:10

If you try to brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers, what does it make you.

What are these youth-camps exactly. Oh the irony. Heard that on the day prior to the attack a game was organised where the kids wearing paliflags had to break the blockade. Not all that weird because it's Norway but even our hardcore antisemit socialist party wouldn't brainwash young minds like that. If I hear things like that I find it kinda hard to get worked up about them dying by the hands of a terrorist. Labour shame on you, like crocodiles they cry when they bite. They are probably too leftist to understand that they aren't allowed to skullfrak kids this way, I'm not going to apologise on behalf of the right anymore, hate was planted there and hate is what they got. Poor kids, but labour-jugend ain't that far off

Centurion1

07-31-2011, 10:25

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh this is going to end badly.

InsaneApache

07-31-2011, 10:33

In before teh lock.

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 11:02

Why lock it? It's tasteless and over the top as usual, but Frags touches on a topic that is relevant.

Norwegian intellectuals and politicians are generally pretty naive when it comes to the Middle East. Emulating the Gaza fleet on Utoya must have been a pretty stupid game, as well as childish. We know that said fleet is organised by shady characters and organisations, mostly islamists and their western admirers. In that sense Fragony is right. But the kids didn't deserve to die for it. That's just Fragony's way of coping with a horrible world.

But there is an issue here. For instance I have always wondered why a mouth-foaming islamomidget like mullah Krekar has been tolerated in Norway for so long, whereas an Israel-propagandist like Dershowitz is not allowed to speak at Norwegian universities.

AII

Fragony

07-31-2011, 11:42

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 12:08

Gutmensch never ceases to amaze me

Gutmensch has his accomplishments, even with regard to the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords) he can bridge a gap that others can't.

There is an uncanny parallel here, too. Israelis killed 19 unarmed people on the previous Gaza fleet, Breivik killed dozens of unarmed youngsters shortly after they mimicked the present Gaza fleet.

No reason to be so starry-eyed about Israel, me boy.

AII

Skullheadhq

07-31-2011, 12:09

Of course they didn't have to die, but that stepherd-wife smile Norway freaks me out. Creepy that they have these indoctrination-camps, nothing childish about it, it's malicious. Gutmensch never ceases to amaze me

That's because political youth camps are by definition misguided. Why would kids have to organize politically and then go to an awkward, everyone-thinks-the-same camp? It just makes no sense.

Viking

07-31-2011, 12:41

If you try to brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers, what does it make you.

The sympathy does not lie with the killers of children, duh. What does such an overstatement make you.

But there is an issue here. For instance I have always wondered why a mouth-foaming islamomidget like mullah Krekar has been tolerated in Norway for so long, whereas an Israel-propagandist like Dershowitz is not allowed to speak at Norwegian universities.

Krekar is not at all being tolerated, but because chances are he will receive the death sentence if he returns to Iraq, he will not be returned at present.

That's because political youth camps are by definition misguided. Why would kids have to organize politically and then go to an awkward, everyone-thinks-the-same camp? It just makes no sense.

I don't know much about what was going on this annual AUF camp, but political youth camps do sound creepy to me as well. I think most parties here have similar gatherings, though precise details evade my memory.

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 13:03

Krekar is not at all being tolerated [...]

Oh, but he is. In 2007 the Norwegian Supreme Court ruled that Krekar was a 'threat to Norway's national security'. He has since uttered death threads against Norwegian politicians as well as loads of other 'enemies'. So why isn't he convicted? Why isn't he even incarcerated?

Do the Norwegian security services have a deal with him, that they will leave him alone if he won't order attacsk on Norwegian soil?

The Brits have tried for years to manage their islamist underworld in this manner: just leave them alone as long as they perpetrate their murders in France, Germany and elsewhere and we don't look bad. Well, they got their comeuppance in 2005. Norway will have to deal decisively with Krekar. That is in the interest of Norwegian muslims as well as Norway as a whole.

AII

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 13:20

Krekar is so far from a threath to our nation than you can get. He has stayed here for 20 years, no bombs so far. If he wished to blow up something here, I'm quite sure he would have done it already. Now, if they had charged him with war crimes in Iraq or something like that, they might be onto something. But a threath against national security? Laughable.

Onto the nature of Utøya.

It is NOT a kids summer camp. Not in any way. Its not a place where parents send their kids.

AUF has two national events. One is the national party meeting, usually in october, where the politics, leadership, etc is decided. The other is Utøya, where all that stuff is debated. Youth parties in Norway have an active role in politics, and Utøya is how AUF prepares itself on a national level for the upcoming election. The rest of the time is spent debating and socializing.

Most are in their late teens/early twenties. To call them kids is to flaunt your ignorance openly.

A game where people play with flags and such? I call BS.

Skullheadhq

07-31-2011, 13:27

Fragony

07-31-2011, 13:31

Call it what you want. But it has indoctrination written all over it. Creepy

'LOL, Labour party policy is largely set out by kids, that explains a lot.... '

I lol'ed

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 13:45

LOL, Labour party policy is largely set out by kids, that explains a lot....

No.

Every party in Norway has a youth party like AUF, and they all fuction in the same way. All of them also have two main events, the national party meeting and a socializer. The communists meet on Tromøya in the south, AUF has Utøya, the progress party youth meets in vestfold, etc etc. This is how Norwegian politics works, if you believe it to be indoctrination, then I'm sorry, but you are then a trifle mistaken.

And for the last time, youth does NOT mean kids. Youth is defined as anyone up to the age of 33. Most youth party members are around 20, while most of the influential ones(eskil pedersen, røe isaksen, hovland, etc) are in their late twenties.

The primary role of youth parties is to campaign towards the 18-30 age group, host school debates and subsequent school elections.

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 13:47

Krekar is so far from a threath to our nation than you can get.

Your Supreme Court seems to disagree. And the UN too since they put him on their terrorist list.

He has stayed here for 20 years, no bombs so far.

Not in Norway. In Iraq, however: car bombs, suicide bombings, threats to kill all Christians. Hence my question: does Norway have a 'British' deal with this guy, turning a blind eye so long as he does his killing elsewhere?

AII

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 13:49

.....and that would kinda be my point, wouldn't it?

Krekar is a threat to Iraq. So charge him on being a threat to Iraq then!

Anyways, the reason he isn't sent out is because of that pesky little book called 'Norwegian Law', which says we can't send people to places where they risk execution. Iraq would be such a place. Hence, he stays.

Fragony

07-31-2011, 13:56

'if you believe it to be indoctrination, then I'm sorry, but you are then a trifle mistaken.'

That is of course perfectly possible. What would you call it, awareness probably. If it isn't indoctrination it's at least social control. And even if it isn't that it's still pushy. .

Why do they have paliflags anyway, what does it have to do with Norway

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 14:17

Krekar is a threat to Iraq. So charge him on being a threat to Iraq then!

No, he is a threat to Norway. The old imbecile even threated a Norwegian minister, a representative of the country that kept him safe for 14 years, with death.

Don't send him to Iraq or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents. Send him to jail.

AII

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 14:23

Skullheadhq

07-31-2011, 14:29

or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents.

Who could have said this 15 years ago?

Fragony

07-31-2011, 14:30

No, he is a threat to Norway. The old imbecile even threated a Norwegian minister, a representative of the country that kept him safe for 14 years, with death.

Don't send him to Iraq or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents. Send him to jail.

AII

I don't understand it all that much either, Stocholm by proxy or something like that. A lot of western confusion in any case, glad you are immune for that, I'd almost vote on you.

I still thing he should just be dumped in Iraq, or with his butt painted red with Bakito

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 14:57

A lot of western confusion in any case, glad you are immune for that, I'd almost vote on you.

Mensch! Don't vote for a money-grubbing pinko centralist Francophile.

Seriously, I have always been critical of western capitals that gave islamists too much money, respectability and logistic leeway. 'Londonistan' for instance has become a festering sore. The US has discovered that financing and arming Quran-toting 'freedom fighters' wasn't such a good idea. The Dutch have found out that their policy of scientific openness helped Pakistan develop its nuclear bomb.

Such developments have harmed western interests as well as the standing of millions of hard-working, decent, law-abiding, hospitable and friendly muslims on western soil.

So maybe it's time for a rethink eh?

AII

Fisherking

07-31-2011, 14:57

As to the original topic of this discussion;

What is so amazing about all this?

People have indoctrinated youth since mankind began.

When we agree with it we call it in favorable terms and when we disagree we call it atrocious behavior.

Normally parents or society at large teach children how to view the world. If you pass them over to political organizations you should not be surprised that they may instill a narrower view based on their own beliefs to those in their charge.

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 15:18

Yes, Utøya is a place of indoctranation, because they hold debates there. Because, you know, in a debate you only ever get one argument.

No, wait?

A youth party is a political party. What happens at their events is political stuff. The ones attending are politicans, the only remarkable thing is that they are all in their late teens/twenties. A hefty percentage of them are already voted into office, most locally, but a few occupy some of the 169 seats of parliament.

They're not being indoctrinated, if anything they would be the ones who would indoctrinate others.

And for the record, I was there in 2008. As a communist spy, of course....

Edit: crank out google translate, and read about the evil indoctrination the conservative youth party is planning to do:

http://ungehoyre.no/organisasjonen/skolering.html

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 15:23

Indoctrination usually means that people are force-fed certain views or an entire lifestyle, to the exclusion of everything else. No other sources of information are allowed, and those protesting the indoctrination are isolated and punished. That's what happened in the Hitler Jugend. There is not even a semblance of a parallel to Utoya. Those who think otherwise are retards, hysterics or Glenn Beck.

AII

Fragony

07-31-2011, 15:24

'So maybe it's time for a rethink eh?'

That would be lovely

'Yes, Utøya is a place of indoctranation, because they hold debates there. Because, you know, in a debate you only ever get one argument.'

If the organization organises a break the blockade game I'd say the debate was already kinda settled.

Cute Wolf

07-31-2011, 15:50

That's because political youth camps are by definition retarded. Why would kids have to organize politically and then go to an awkward, everyone-thinks-the-same camp? It just makes no sense.

they imitate muslim madrasah system *cough* emulate the muslims *cough*

but even with that, killing unarmed defenseless childs are by definition utter coward

Louis VI the Fat

07-31-2011, 16:01

People join a political party to find like-minded people. They study, roleplay together, sing songs. Religious organisations are for people of like-minded religious persuasion. They pary together, sing. Civic organisations may go on camp together to preserve nature, or for cultural reasons, or for a fantasy new age mediaevil fair. It's what people do. These kids, this camp ground, is neither innocent nor guilty. It is just people gathering together. Democracy does not mean an absense of political and religious activism, or an absense of the recruitment of youth.

Democracy means the absense of a fight to the death with those of different persuasion. And fascism is the ideology that describes difference as enmity, as a struggle for supremacy, which seeks total eradication of those of different peruasion.

As a nudist, I disagree with wearing clothes. I shall now go to a children's 'dress like your favourite animal!' party to shoot them all, this Hitlerjugend who are indoctrinated into wearing clothes in public, these multiclothist shock troops.

Fragony

07-31-2011, 16:13

'These kids, this camp ground, is neither innocent nor guilty.'

Sure. But a little bit of reflection from the left isn't all that much to ask for imho

ICantSpellDawg

07-31-2011, 16:14

wrong post

Tellos Athenaios

07-31-2011, 17:49

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 17:59

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a “break the blockade” game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active “youth” part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

Fragony

07-31-2011, 18:05

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a ?break the blockade? game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active ?youth? part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

And Norway doesn't outright ban certain university's because they are Israeli

Subotan

07-31-2011, 18:12

The topic at hand is based on two distinct misunderstandings that serve as the premise to a frankly odious argument.

To those who are arguing it is indoctrination; it isn't. Indoctrination has to be done involuntarily, in that no choice is presented to the subject of the indoctrination to accept or refuse it. The Utøya event was an event for members of the Labour Party, who are members of their own free will, that they could choose to go to. Since there is no such thing as voluntary indoctrination, the Utøya event can't have been indoctrination.

Also, as HoreTore has made clear; this was a Youth Camp insofar as it was open to members of the party who were not middle-aged or over. Lots of parties have similar affiliated organisations; e.g. I'm a member of the Youth Wing of the British Labour Party, as are all members up to the age of 27.

With those two assumptions out of the way, I'm going to throw down the gauntlet to Fragony, skullhead etc. By framing the issue like this, by presenting the event as something which should never have happened, you are trying to shift the blame for the murders away from the frothing, racist and radical European far-right, who have for years tried to legitimise the discourse they engage in, to the victims of this terrible tragedy.

Skullheadhq

07-31-2011, 18:31

'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

Banquo's Ghost

07-31-2011, 18:48

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 19:26

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

Kralizec

07-31-2011, 19:27

Oh the irony.

It would have been ironic if the perpetrator had been an islamic terrorist. Instead it was a white guy who believes that all leftists are anti-semites, Al-Quada sympathizers and Gutmenschen. Hate was certainly planted, but not by these youths. Your post is a case in point.

Subotan

07-31-2011, 19:32

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.
Precisely, tempted though I was to suggest goosestepping.

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 19:45

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/4859983826_1145203a6e_z.jpg

This picture seems to be the source of the OP.

And it also explains the OP's massive and complete fail.

Those people are not AUF-campers - those are members of Sosialistisk Ungdom(socialist youth) - SU - which is the youth party of MY political party, Sosialistisk Venstreparty(socialist left party).

The right-wing blogosphere, determined to show the world that they have no brains, are saying that the picture is from Utøya.

It is not. It is a different party, different people, different political stance, different MO, and actually, its also a completly different location. That boat is not Sailing on Tyrifjorden, that looks more like the coast of southern/southwestern Norway. If I had to guess, I'd say Stavanger.

So in conclusion, this thread is a massive FAIL and should be forgotten.

Some more info on what Utøya is about for you all: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/regarding-the-tragedy-we-are-now-living-through.html

Greyblades

07-31-2011, 19:47

Uh... What the heck is the first post talking about? "brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers", who is? Is there an artical we're supposed to have read already?

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 19:53

Uh... What the heck is the first post talking about? "brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers", who is? Is there an artical we're supposed to have read already?

While one can never be completly sure, I believe the photo in my last post is the source, plus the spin of the right-wing blogosphere which the OP reads with a passion.

Subotan

07-31-2011, 19:56

So in conclusion, this thread is a massive FAIL and should be forgotten.
Oh of course, but I think that was evident from the start. The thread should not be forgotten though, and I for one intend to refer to it in future discussions on teh Mohammedans in Europe on this board.

HoreTore

07-31-2011, 19:58

Oh of course, but I think that was evident from the start. The thread should not be forgotten though, and I for one intend to refer to it in future discussions on teh Mohammedans in Europe on this board.

Well it would of course be amusing to hear how one can fail to spot the big flag in the centre of the pic with SU written on it...

Fragony

07-31-2011, 21:57

While one can never be completly sure, I believe the photo in my last post is the source, plus the spin of the right-wing blogosphere which the OP reads with a passion.

Nah, got it from de Volkskrant, who nobody would ever accuse of being anti-labout, quite the opposite

Have not seen that pic

Adrian II

07-31-2011, 22:10

I would appreciate it if the use of the word "retard" and its variants was dropped forthwith. It is an ugly and inappropriate word when applied to an opponent or their views.

This is a contentious discussion and will not be helped by personal attacks or lazy generalisations.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

Louis VI the Fat

07-31-2011, 22:29

I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AIIYes you would, you called me a retard just yesterday. :no:

Typical drivel of a lily-livered lackey of rampant reactionary retardism.

AIITeh ban! Teh ban! :shout:

:pleased:

PanzerJaeger

08-01-2011, 02:41

And for the last time, youth does NOT mean kids. Youth is defined as anyone up to the age of 33. Most youth party members are around 20, while most of the influential ones(eskil pedersen, røe isaksen, hovland, etc) are in their late twenties.

The primary role of youth parties is to campaign towards the 18-30 age group, host school debates and subsequent school elections.

How old were the youngest participants at the camp?

Tellos Athenaios

08-01-2011, 02:54

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

Not ones which involve actually having a say in party policy... that's for sure.

Tellos Athenaios

08-01-2011, 02:57

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.Not the PVV one. That was a trick question from Skullhead.

Louis VI the Fat

08-01-2011, 03:33

How old were the youngest participants at the camp?

https://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3384/utoya.jpg

Social democracy has been a dominant force in the Nordic countries for decades. Their societies, considered amongst the world's mpost advanced and civilised, the envy of the world, are to a very large extent the product of this dominance.

It is a bizarre fascist claim that these countries, these camps, are about ultra-leftwing indoctrination. What Europe needs is more Scandinavia, more democracy, more politically active youngsters, and less fascism. Not the other way round. Breivik, like 9-11, is an attack against western democracy, not a 'sad but secretly well deserved act they had coming'. Whatever one's objections about immigration in Europe, shooting a bunch of Norwegian youngsters isn't relevant. One would have to end up rooting for planes flown into London skyscrapers in retribution for the role rightwing demand for cheap labour and flexible borders has had on European immigration.

Centurion1

08-01-2011, 03:40

https://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3384/utoya.jpg

Social democracy has been a dominant force in the Nordic countries for decades. Their societies, considered amongst the world's mpost advanced and civilised, the envy of the world, are to a very large extent the product of this dominance.

It is a bizarre fascist claim that these countries, these camps, are about ultra-leftwing indoctrination. What Europe needs is more Scandinavia, more democracy, more politically active youngsters, and less fascism. Not the other way round. Breivik, like 9-11, is an attack against western democracy, not a 'sad but secretly well deserved act they had coming'. Whatever one's objections about immigration in Europe, shooting a bunch of Norwegian youngsters isn't relevant. One would have to end up rooting for planes flown into London skyscrapers in retribution for the role rightwing demand for cheap labour and flexible borders has had on European immigration.

Speak for yourself regarding enviousness over the Scandinavian model.

It has been debated to death that the Scandinavian countries forms of government are not applicable to many nations including the US. Do you really think France would succeed if they followed the governmental and economic models of Norway?

Advanced and Civilized by what standard. Obviously they are western and have modern societies but in what way are they more advanced than the rest of the world? At what technological or economic standard do these nations lead the rest of the world?

Enlighten me please.

PanzerJaeger

08-01-2011, 03:46

Social democracy has been a dominant force in the Nordic countries for decades. Their societies, considered amongst the world's mpost advanced and civilised, the envy of the world, are to a very large extent the product of this dominance.

It is a bizarre fascist claim that these countries, these camps, are about ultra-leftwing indoctrination. What Europe needs is more Scandinavia, more democracy, more politically active youngsters, and less fascism. Not the other way round. Breivik, like 9-11, is an attack against western democracy, not a 'sad but secretly well deserved act they had coming'. Whatever one's objections about immigration in Europe, shooting a bunch of Norwegian youngsters isn't relevant. One would have to end up rooting for planes flown into London skyscrapers in retribution for the role rightwing demand for cheap labour and flexible borders has had on European immigration.

Hmm.

Horetore seems to be playing this off as an apolitical gathering of young adults (and anyone who thinks differently is 'retarded'). I seem to remember there were participants significantly younger than 18 at the event. However, I'm not certain of that recollection. I'm just trying to establish the actual parameters of the discussion before I make a judgment on this political camp system.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that these children deserved to be killed. Completely separate from the killing, though, is the question of whether hosting children at political youth camp is a bit creepy. I'm not prepared to state an opinion on that without some more information.

Louis VI the Fat

08-01-2011, 03:59

Hmm.

Horetore seems to be playing this off as an apolitical gathering of young adults (and anyone who thinks differently is 'retarded'). I seem to remember there were participants significantly younger than 18 at the event. However, I'm not certain of that recollection. I'm just trying to establish the actual parameters of the discussion before I make a judgment on this political camp system.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that these children deserved to be killed. Completely separate from the killing, though, is the question of whether hosting children at political youth camp is a bit creepy. I'm not prepared to state an opinion on that without some more information.It is a political camp, of a political party. So, yeah...
Even if most activities are not political, it is still a political camp with a political nature. As for creepy, meh, not to me. Young people are often very politically engaged. It takes little indoctrination to turn a nineteen year old into a political activist. I was a nineteen year old idealist once too, back in 1923 or some such long ago.

A political youth camp is not my cup of tea, but then, I also don't go to youth church, or enjoy uniforms, or any of the sort.

Centurion - personal preference then, I suppose. I, for one, have a long standing fascination with the north of Europe, which I consider the most civilised countries in the world.

jirisys

08-01-2011, 04:06

Centurion - personal preference then, I suppose. I, for one, have a long standing fascination with the north of Europe, which I consider the most civilised countries in the world.

Remember when they were considered savages and conquered the north?

~Jirisys ()

Proletariat

08-01-2011, 04:21

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

Retard, like the word moron, once meant something else, a medical diagnosis. Times and words change and one day the mods will catch up, but by that time you'll be hearing people describe idiots as 'acting like a real beck'. I will never call another orgah a beck either.

HoreTore

08-01-2011, 05:58

How old were the youngest participants at the camp?

14.

Banquo's Ghost

08-01-2011, 06:02

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

retard

noun
Pronunciation:/ˈriːtɑːd/
offensive
a person who has a mental disability (often used as a general term of abuse).

Mr Beck may have views with which you disagree, but the use of the word retard to describe him is incorrect and more importantly, offensive. The term does not foster respectful discussion and rapidly migrates from descriptions of public figures to personal attacks on members.

Fragony

08-01-2011, 20:31

It would have been ironic if the perpetrator had been an islamic terrorist. Instead it was a white guy who believes that all leftists are anti-semites, Al-Quada sympathizers and Gutmenschen. Hate was certainly planted, but not by these youths. Your post is a case in point.

If you absolutely adore people who feel the end justifies the means and die by the hands of someone who thinks likewise, that's ironic imho .

And from what I heard from the speech the PM gave ah well, it certainly wasn't about Norway's social-democracy and the amount of ribbons and flyers

HoreTore

08-01-2011, 20:45

You heard nothing from the PM, as he was supposed to speak on saturday. Needless to say, he didn't get a chance to do so.

Fragony

08-01-2011, 21:01

You heard nothing from the PM, as he was supposed to speak on saturday. Needless to say, he didn't get a chance to do so.

The ex-PM then. What difference does it make a major labour figure no. What does the middle-eastern conflict got to do with Norway? And ribbons? Norway has creepy elements imho

Kralizec

08-01-2011, 21:22

Adrian II

08-01-2011, 21:26

I will never call another orgah a beck either.

:laugh4:

:bow:

Fragony

08-01-2011, 22:11

HoreTore

08-01-2011, 22:24

Okay. So according to you, Norway's labour party endorses (or absolutely adores, whatever) terrorism against Israeli citizens, and because of that, it's ironic that a youth camp became a target of terrorism? Sources please, because I have a feeling that the premise is blatantly false.

It is indeed an utter lie.

First of all, it was Gahr Støre, the foreign minister, who spoke on Thursday, the day of the mid-east debate. He repeated the mantra he has repeated since he assumed office:

Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue.

I don't think I have ever heard the man utter another word. How that can be interpreted as hate, however, is quite frankly beyond me.

As for Derschowitz being "denied" to speak at universities, the head of the unis in question have addressed that well enough. I'll give you the short version: he approached the legal faculty administration and asked if he could hold a lecture on Israel. The administration replied that they wanted a lecture on law, not Israel, seeing as how he is a professor of law and it being a legal faculty. He declined that, and the administration told him to contact the student organization if he wanted to hold a lecture that is strictly outside the curriculum. I can't remember atm if he did so, however.

Ah yes, what Jew-hating madness!!

Kralizec

08-01-2011, 22:29

Who did? The universities themselves, or the labour government?
All I can find with google is that Dershowitz was refused a lecture (Adrian referred to this earlier; he's not an Israeli citizen though) and a failed attempt at Trondheim's university to institute an academic boycot, the latter which was unanimously rejected.

EDIT: this was obviously in response to Frag.

Fragony

08-01-2011, 22:34

'First of all, it was Gahr Støre, the foreign minister, who spoke on Thursday, the day of the mid-east debate. He repeated the mantra he has repeated since he assumed office:Dialogue, dialogue, dialoguee'

Which has what to do with Norway's social democracy exactly?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

08-02-2011, 00:38

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

I picked this quote to jump in because it's typically Scandanavian in many ways, mostly in that it does not hold up for the rest of the world.

The primary purpose of a political party is for like minded politicians to group together in a country's legislature in order to advance a common political program. In forming a political part you are, as agroup, trying to articulate a coherent political vision which both appeals to and benefits the electorate, or at least a portion of it. Engaging the young is about the sustainability of a political project, it is a part of long term stategy, not immediate political objectives.

Now, onto the camps:

Creepy? Not really, when you examine them. Weird? A bit, yes.

This is obviously a Norwegian thing, but it looks to me like "religion", the socialisation of young people into a particular mindset in the same way that Evangelical groups in the UK do outreach. It's actually very similar, camps, songs, debates and talks from eminent guest speakers.

This chimes with my impression of the reaction from Norwegians to the attack, the two words that came up the most were "love" and "forgiveness". The pitch was entirely Christian, but I know Norway is a very secular country with quite low levels of observance, notwithstanding the automatic flocking to the Cathedral in Oslo as a focal point for mourning.

My tentative conclusion is that Norwegians have replaced religion with secular politics in what almost looks like a "bait and switch", which explains why Norway lacks the social vacume of, say, Britain, and why their political engagement is so energetic.

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 00:50

Love has been a mantra. I haven't heard forgiveness mentioned once.

Christian? I'd go for "hippie lovefest 2011".

As for the primary purpose of a democratic party:

It's the same in Britland too. I'll say it in a different way, maybe you'll get what I'm trying to say:

The primary purpose of any political party in a democratic state is to uphold democracy.

Quite obviously, if we lose a generation, then we will lose our democracy in 30 years or so. So, in order to save and continue our democratic society, we must engage each new generation in democracy. Thus, the primary purpose of our political parties is to engage the youth.

Louis VI the Fat

08-02-2011, 00:59

I picked this quote to jump in because it's typically Scandanavian in many ways, mostly in that it does not hold up for the rest of the world.

The primary purpose of a political party is for like minded politicians to group together in a country's legislature in order to advance a common political program. In forming a political part you are, as agroup, trying to articulate a coherent political vision which both appeals to and benefits the electorate, or at least a portion of it. Engaging the young is about the sustainability of a political project, it is a part of long term stategy, not immediate political objectives.

Now, onto the camps:

Creepy? Not really, when you examine them. Weird? A bit, yes.

This is obviously a Norwegian thing, but it looks to me like "religion", the socialisation of young people into a particular mindset in the same way that Evangelical groups in the UK do outreach. It's actually very similar, camps, songs, debates and talks from eminent guest speakers.

This chimes with my impression of the reaction from Norwegians to the attack, the two words that came up the most were "love" and "forgiveness". The pitch was entirely Christian, but I know Norway is a very secular country with quite low levels of observance, notwithstanding the automatic flocking to the Cathedral in Oslo as a focal point for mourning.

My tentative conclusion is that Norwegians have replaced religion with secular politics in what almost looks like a "bait and switch", which explains why Norway lacks the social vacume of, say, Britain, and why their political engagement is so energetic.It's not particular to Norway.

All (mainstream) French political parties have active youth movements, and they all go on camp in summer. There is nothing weird, creepy, Hitlerjugend or whatever about this Norwegian youth camp. It is merely the finest workings of the European democratic tradition in action.

French rightwing youth: http://www.jeunesump.fr/
French leftwing youth: http://www.jeunes-socialistes.fr/
Etcetera for dozens more of political persuasions and etcetera for dozens more Western countries. All of their youth movements are out camping this summer. Sometimes just a single party, sometimes several, gathering for 'Student UN', 'Young EU', etc.

The only thing weird here is the fascism of the attacker. It is the old fascist urge rearing its ugly head again. The tendency to regard people of other persuasion as a mortal enemy, to project this onto the other and assume he too is plotting your total annihilation, the idea that only the fascist represents the nation, and that all others are traitors to be fought to death.
The brownshirts are back. This is about intimidating and finally banning any gatherings not belonging to the fascist side. European hardright populism is simply neo-fascism. Useless, the ideology of bitter isolated men with a grudge and an internet connection.

a completely inoffensive name

08-02-2011, 01:22

Yes, the real question in the massacre of an island is, "What were they doing on the island?"

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

08-02-2011, 01:30

It's not particular to Norway.

All (mainstream) French political parties have active youth movements, and they all go on camp in summer. There is nothing weird, creepy, Hitlerjugend or whatever about this Norwegian youth camp. It is merely the finest workings of the European democratic tradition in action.

French rightwing youth: http://www.jeunesump.fr/
French leftwing youth: http://www.jeunes-socialistes.fr/
Etcetera for dozens more of political persuasions and etcetera for dozens more Western countries. All of their youth movements are out camping this summer. Sometimes just a single party, sometimes several, gathering for 'Student UN', 'Young EU', etc.

In "particularly Scandanavian" I was refering to HoreTore's comment. As far as political youth camps, similar things exist in the UK too, though I don't know about residentual "camps" as such there certainly are "youth" movements for particular parties, there's a great picture of William Hague with a mellet at a Young Conservatives rally in the 80's.

To British eyes, however, the fact that underage, non-electors, are present feels are littel wierd.

The only thing weird here is the fascism of the attacker. It is the old fascist urge rearing its ugly head again. The tendency to regard people of other persuasion as a mortal enemy, to project this onto the other and assume he too is plotting your total annihilation, the idea that only the fascist represents the nation, and that all others are traitors to be fought to death.
The brownshirts are back. This is about intimidating and finally banning any gatherings not belonging to the fascist side. European hardright populism is simply neo-fascism. Useless, the ideology of bitter isolated men with a grudge and an internet connection.

This view has nothing to do with Facism, it is a part of most radical revolutionary movements, it manifested in the French Terror and all Communist Revolutions as well as Facist Italy and Nazi Germany. It was more terrible in Soviet Russia and Revolutionary France than Facist Italy, so to describe it as "Facist" is disingenuous, and risks obscurring the real cause of these violent reactions. A lack of compassion on the part of the perpetrator, in the case of mass-movements that adopt this attitude the blame lies also with the target of their hatred who have failed to engage them properly.

CBR

08-02-2011, 01:39

Fragony

08-02-2011, 07:17

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands? ~:confused:

It's Norway, the most anti-semite country in the developed world, where even universities boycott anything Israel. Where labour organises youth camps with break-the-blockade games.

Not just Israel;

Question to our American members (the country not the continent, Canada is 100% ok), ever noticed something with teh Vikings. Not Denmark, but with Swedes and Norwegians. Aren't they all saying the same things, and a bit mean in general

Very creepy, stepherd wives society

Major Robert Dump

08-02-2011, 07:22

Papewaio

08-02-2011, 07:51

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands? ~:confused:

Possibly because the term youth is generally considered under 18 and younger (it can be under 25 too). So there was a perception that this was political indoctrination of under 18s/

We have similar young politician parties here in Aus. They're university wannabes and a lot of the elected officials come through these organisations and/or the unions.

Centurion1

08-02-2011, 08:06

I went to a Young Democrats meeting in college and they encouraged me to make out with other boys, but only boys of a different race. It was really creepy and I didn't go back. The next week I tried a Young Republicans meeting, and that was a little easier to deal with because only the Baptists were gay

I went to a young communists meeting and everyone just had sex with everybody else. They said they had nationalized our lust. But only a few of the seniors were allowed to go with the girls. I went to a young libertarian meeting, no one was there.

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 08:31

Where labour organises youth camps with break-the-blockade games.

No brain activity at all. I'm quite speechless.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 08:46

No brain activity at all. I'm quite speechless.

That is normal when there is no brain activity

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 08:58

That is normal when there is no brain activity

Where, pray tell, have labour organized youth camps with break the blockade games?

Fragony

08-02-2011, 09:12

Where, pray tell, have labour organized youth camps with break the blockade games?

And outburst rewarded anti-Israel speeches and boycott Israel signs. Glad we at least agree on Norway being the most anti-semite country in the developed world and universities boycotting anything Israel

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 09:15

And outburst rewarded anti-Israel speeches and boycott Israel signs. Glad we at least agree on Norway being the most anti-semite country in the developed world and universities boycotting anything Israel

What drivel.

Viking

08-02-2011, 09:45

It's Norway, the most anti-semite country in the developed world, where even universities boycott anything Israel. Where labour organises youth camps with break-the-blockade games.

No such boyotts exist. But I hear Fragony has purple ears.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 09:55

No such boyotts exist. But I hear Fragony has purple ears.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fprint-edition%2Fnews%2Fnorway-university-to-vote-next-month-on-boycott-of-israel-1.5120&ei=F7o3TsvYB82VOubO2dkD&usg=AFQjCNFStedxnyrXFkr1RerlBvmMsp-SWQ&sig2=08HlIbpUmt3j7kja0Q6Pmw

It must have passed, as non-palilovers aren't allowed

Hax

08-02-2011, 10:03

most anti-semite country

Crucial flaw: confusing anti-Israelism with anti-semitism. Just because people are opposed to the state of Israel (Orthodox Jewish groups too, like the Neturei Karta), does not mean they hate Jews. That's silly and a bit childish.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 10:20

Crucial flaw: confusing anti-Israelism with anti-semitism. Just because people are opposed to the state of Israel (Orthodox Jewish groups too, like the Neturei Karta), does not mean they hate Jews. That's silly and a bit childish.

Things don't necessarily have to be speaked out, absolute utter silence is also saying a lot. If it isn't anti-semitism, it's at least paliphilae

You can't absolutely adore Hamas (&Fatah) without siding with child-killers, simple as that

Talking about absolutely adoring, look at our own labour (pic). Wish I ever got grateful looks like that http://www.pim-fortuyn.nl/pfforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=76360

Ironside

08-02-2011, 10:37

Things don't necessarily have to be speaked out, absolute utter silence is also saying a lot. If it isn't anti-semitism, it's at least paliphilae

You can't absolutely adore Hamas (&Fatah) without siding with child-killers, simple as that

So can you do that with Israel? They are much more efficient of killing children after all...

Fisherking

08-02-2011, 10:40

Things don't necessarily have to be speaked out, absolute utter silence is also saying a lot. If it isn't anti-semitism, it's at least paliphilae

You can't absolutely adore Hamas (&Fatah) without siding with child-killers, simple as that

Talking about absolutely adoring, look at our own labour (pic). Wish I ever got grateful looks like that http://www.pim-fortuyn.nl/pfforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=76360

You know that Israel has quite a propaganda machine.

Anything against Israel is often construed as anti-Semitic.

That does a lot to discredit any opposition.

Regardless of what political tactics were being taught on the island, do you think it justifies what happened there the next day?

This is not like you uncovered a cult of socialist cannibals.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 10:56

You know that Israel has quite a propaganda machine.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/cryingwoman.jpg

'Regardless of what political tactics were being taught on the island, do you think it justifies what happened there the next day?'

No, I an perfectly willing to acknowledge that this was an act of terrorism and that the killer comes from us, speaks like us. But a little bit of reflection the other way around would be great

edit, if one of my fellow rightwingers try to dismiss it as just a madman, feel free to punch him in the face. We all have a lot to discuss, it's the only way forward

Papewaio

08-02-2011, 11:05

Crucial flaw: confusing anti-Israelism with anti-semitism. Just because people are opposed to the state of Israel (Orthodox Jewish groups too, like the Neturei Karta), does not mean they hate Jews. That's silly and a bit childish.

Actually you can go one step further. Disagreeing with the policies of the Israeli government does not make you an enemy of the state of Israel or mean that you hate Jews.

After all it is a staple of democracies to disagree with ones government, even if you voted for them.

Adrian II

08-02-2011, 11:58

I went to a young communists meeting and everyone just had sex with everybody else. They said they had nationalized our lust. But only a few of the seniors were allowed to go with the girls. I went to a young libertarian meeting, no one was there.

ROFL! :laugh4:

Adrian II

08-02-2011, 12:00

edit, if one of my fellow rightwingers try to dismiss it as just a madman, feel free to punch him in the face. We all have a lot to discuss, it's the only way forward

:bow:

Kralizec

08-02-2011, 12:23

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fprint-edition%2Fnews%2Fnorway-university-to-vote-next-month-on-boycott-of-israel-1.5120&ei=F7o3TsvYB82VOubO2dkD&usg=AFQjCNFStedxnyrXFkr1RerlBvmMsp-SWQ&sig2=08HlIbpUmt3j7kja0Q6Pmw

It must have passed, as non-palilovers aren't allowed

*sigh*

http://www.haaretz.com/news/norway-university-rebuffs-motion-for-israel-boycott-1.4299

This was the failed attempt to get a boycot that I referred to earlier. The board didn't even debate the issue; the motion was scrapped beforehand.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 12:33

So can you do that with Israel? They are much more efficient of killing children after all...

Sure, and if they thought in the same way as Breivik and Islamists there wouldn't be a single one alive. Not that much of a difference to you?

Hamas also has a manifesto, I suggest you read it. Don't take this the wrong way as I certainly don't mean it as it could look, but maybe it's good that Norway realises it isn't an Island.

CBR

08-02-2011, 12:33

Possibly because the term youth is generally considered under 18 and younger (it can be under 25 too). So there was a perception that this was political indoctrination of under 18s/
Yeah I can see the definitions are different from place to place and even a bit blurred to begin with.

It might be different from one organisation to another but I know in the Danish Social Democratic youth the limit is 30 years old. But that would perhaps be for leaders only as more regular members might either have quit politics or moved to either a student organisation or simply become an active member in a party.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 12:43

*sigh*

http://www.haaretz.com/news/norway-university-rebuffs-motion-for-israel-boycott-1.4299

This was the failed attempt to get a boycot that I referred to earlier. The board didn't even debate the issue; the motion was scrapped beforehand.

That's odd, I guess it was just decided then, figures.

google is your friend

CBR

08-02-2011, 12:45

edit, if one of my fellow rightwingers try to dismiss it as just a madman, feel free to punch him in the face. We all have a lot to discuss, it's the only way forward

FWIW I'm not a fellow rightwinger but I think ABB was more madman than rightwinger. One single guy is not a trend and as long as there is no trend one should be careful about pointing fingers.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

08-02-2011, 12:53

Love has been a mantra. I haven't heard forgiveness mentioned once.Christian? I'd go for "hippie lovefest 2011".As for the primary purpose of a democratic party:

The pitch is very protestant, very calm and rational, whilst also very emotive. You don't have to agree but you might consider that I know what I'm talking about here.

It's the same in Britland too. I'll say it in a different way, maybe you'll get what I'm trying to say:The primary purpose of any political party in a democratic state is to uphold democracy.Quite obviously, if we lose a generation, then we will lose our democracy in 30 years or so. So, in order to save and continue our democratic society, we must engage each new generation in democracy. Thus, the primary purpose of our political parties is to engage the youth. No, I understood the first time, I just disagree, political parties are about common interest and not democracy.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 13:27

FWIW I'm not a fellow rightwinger but I think ABB was more madman than rightwinger. One single guy is not a trend and as long as there is no trend one should be careful about pointing fingers.

This guy was not a madman but an extremist, can you deny it opened up some gaps, can't discuss about him without discussing what he said.

Viking

08-02-2011, 13:42

Sure, and if they thought in the same way as Breivik and Islamists there wouldn't be a single one alive. Not that much of a difference to you?

Hamas also has a manifesto, I suggest you read it. Don't take this the wrong way as I certainly don't mean it as it could look, but maybe it's good that Norway realises it isn't an Island.

They don't support Fatah/Hamas in general, but the Palestinian people. Why whould anyone want to support Hamas, it is an Islamist organisation.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 13:53

They don't support Fatah/Hamas in general, but the Palestinian people. Why whould anyone want to support Hamas, it is an Islamist organisation.

Good question that, cant answer it I am very bad at leftist logic

CBR

08-02-2011, 14:13

This guy was not a madman but an extremist, can you deny it opened up some gaps, can't discuss about him without discussing what he said.
I have not read his manifest but have seen a few quotes from it: he might have shared some ideas with the rightwing, but he also seem to live in his own world and have some pretty weird ideas not many on the rightwing would agree with IMO.

Do people consider Lee Harvey Oswald a leftwing/communist terrorist or assassin or simply a deranged person? Should anyone who dislikes capitalism feel guilty about Rote Armee Fraktion?

I don't know what you mean by "rightwing" but unless you can find a group that advocate for what ABB is rambling about as well as his actions, then he is still just one single madman. Fascists and Nazis come closest I guess?

Fragony

08-02-2011, 15:32

I come pretty close really. If you would be really mean you would remind me of this https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?136656-A-call-for-violence

Kralizec

08-02-2011, 15:41

Sure, and if they thought in the same way as Breivik and Islamists there wouldn't be a single one alive. Not that much of a difference to you?

Hamas also has a manifesto, I suggest you read it. Don't take this the wrong way as I certainly don't mean it as it could look, but maybe it's good that Norway realises it isn't an Island.

The charter of the Likud party rejects Palestinian self-rule. They're allowed to live, but never to establish a sovereign state - ever.

Your point?

CBR

08-02-2011, 16:01

I come pretty close really. If you would be really mean you would remind me of this https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?136656-A-call-for-violence

Maybe the Fragony on Org is just the official and nice side of Fragony, while the inner ABB in you is coming out on the "Tall blond Dutch who hates m00slims" forum, that I don't know of course.

But based on what you are writing here then arming yourself and thinking in terms of vigilantism might be considered extreme but IMO is still a far cry from ABB.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 17:13

Maybe the Fragony on Org is just the official and nice side of Fragony, while the inner ABB in you is coming out on the "Tall blond Dutch who hates m00slims" forum, that I don't know of course.

But based on what you are writing here then arming yourself and thinking in terms of vigilantism might be considered extreme but IMO is still a far cry from ABB.

Of course. If you want to dive into it, my e-mail is my actual name

Just trying to say that there's a reason there is a populist right.

Centurion1

08-02-2011, 17:51

This guy was not a madman but an extremist, can you deny it opened up some gaps, can't discuss about him without discussing what he said.

H most certainly is a madman. I do not need to be a psychiatrist to see that.

CBR

08-02-2011, 18:06

Just trying to say that there's a reason there is a populist right.
Yes indeed and what I'm trying to say is that the populist right should not feel guilty about the actions of ABB. Unless they advocate actual violence and fascism.

Nor is ABB a natural result of multiculturalism as some on the rightwing is declaring.

I might as well say it was a natural result of having the internets because ABB could communicate and obtain info in ways that was practically impossible a few decades ago. Or why not say it is the natural result of the industrialisation because without fertilizer and automatic weapons ABB could not have done much damage.

That of course does not mean we shouldn't try to figure out what went wrong up in his head.

Fragony

08-02-2011, 19:07

I don't feel guilty, hoping something good will come out of this

'Nor is ABB a natural result of multiculturalism as some on the rightwing is declaring.'

Not such a wild claim, of course it is. And of the completely politically autistic EU as well

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 20:06

No, I understood the first time, I just disagree, political parties are about common interest and not democracy.

But what is most important to our political parties?

Is job creation most important to Labour?
Are lower taxes most important to the conservatives?
Is enviromentalism most important to the greens?

I'd say no; what is most important to all of them is to uphold democracy.

Though this, of course, does not apply to our anti-democratic parties, for obvious reasons. But I don't see why anyone should bother with them...

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 20:08

They don't support Fatah/Hamas in general, but the Palestinian people. Why whould anyone want to support Hamas, it is an Islamist organisation.

This is, of course, disregarding the fact that Labour doesn't support neither Hamas or Fatah. For as long as Gahr Støre is in control of the foreign policy, they will forever support Dialogue, Dialogue and Dialogue.

That's what you get when you send people of to schools in France, I guess...

drone

08-02-2011, 21:02

But what is most important to our political parties?
I don't think you really want to know the answer to this question. :no:

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 21:03

I don't think you really want to know the answer to this question. :no:

I already know it.

drone

08-02-2011, 22:08

what is most important to all of them is to uphold democracy.
This is not it.

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 22:11

This is not it.

I call populist hatred of politicians.

Recent event makes this an unbreakable trumf-card.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

08-02-2011, 22:33

But what is most important to our political parties?

Is job creation most important to Labour?
Are lower taxes most important to the conservatives?
Is enviromentalism most important to the greens?

I'd say no; what is most important to all of them is to uphold democracy.

Though this, of course, does not apply to our anti-democratic parties, for obvious reasons. But I don't see why anyone should bother with them...

No, I dissagree. Political parties exist in non-democratic systems, even "absolute" monarchies. It is only because you live in a democratically governed Constitutional Monarchy that you see democracy as important to political parties, but the mere fact that it is a common concern for Norwegian politicians makes it a non-partisan belief, and therefore of no concern to political parties at all.

It is a concern for Norwegians and Noway's society, but not for its individual political parties.

As I said, political parties exist to advance an agenda, democracy is not on anyone's agenda to advance in Norway.

drone

08-02-2011, 22:45

What is most important to political parties is to get in power and maintain this power for as long as possible. In democracies, this means getting elected, but this is just a means to the end.

There is a difference between hatred and well justified mistrust.

Kralizec

08-02-2011, 22:52

I'd have to agree - systems of elected representation are competitive and thus count on parties wanting to maximise their amount of voters, i.e. looking out for their own interest. Put cynically, elections are merely an opportunity to exchange one ruling party for another; it's in the parties' interests to do a good job, or at least appear to be doing a good job at governing.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that every politician secretly dreams of a one-party state, though.

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 22:52

No, I dissagree. Political parties exist in non-democratic systems, even "absolute" monarchies.

Note how I specified political parties "in a democratic state".

As I said, political parties exist to advance an agenda, democracy is not on anyone's agenda to advance in Norway.

The youth parties are given their assignments with the specific goal of upholding and ensuring the continuance of the democracy.

Spreading propaganda regarding the party you represent yourself is considered a secondary goal. "Get 'em voting" is the motto.

Hence why I have helped deliver party propaganda for several parties over the years, while at the same time I have only been affiliated with one party(socialist left). Heck, in 2005 I was driving around with propaganda from both the communist party and the centre party, delivering both at the same time...

drone

08-02-2011, 23:33

Of course that's what the parties will tell the idealistic youth. "Controlling the country for our own interests" doesn't fly as well.

HoreTore

08-02-2011, 23:49

Of course that's what the parties will tell the idealistic youth. "Controlling the country for our own interests" doesn't fly as well.

http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/28379-yes_nbsp_don_tin_foil_hat.jpg

drone

08-03-2011, 01:01

:rolleyes:

Kralizec

08-03-2011, 01:20

A party isn't an entity with an own will. I'm sure that a lot of, if not most, politicians honestly believe in the democratic process. Promoting certain political views and acknowledging that opposing opinions are necessary aren't mutually exclusive, but it's unlikely that a politician will honestly believe in democracy when he has no credible opposition.

And our politicians also habitually declare every election "a victory for democracy" or whatever, even if their own party lost. I usually interpret this as giving cold comfort to their supporters.

Papewaio

08-03-2011, 02:01

Spreading propaganda regarding the party you represent yourself is considered a secondary goal. "Get 'em voting" is the motto.

Well voting (turning up to be precise) is compulsory in Australia... so the Parties are quite transparent in having their goal of getting votes for themselves.

Adrian II

08-03-2011, 14:53

Of course politicians and parties want power, they would be fools if they didn't. But I am sure that HoreTore is right when he says the large majority of Norwegian politicians want to rule legitimately and therefore democratically.

AII

Fragony

08-04-2011, 08:59

Adrian II

08-04-2011, 10:23

heh, leader of the youth movement has quite the history. Two years after the Ma'aloth massacre where 25 kids were killed he trained with the DFLP, the group that claimed the attack. They didn't traim him very well as he was busted when he tried to smuggle explosives in his books. According to police-reports he wanted to take lives to motivate the Palestians. Because it's Norway it had no consequences

Ma'aloth was in 1974. Eskil Pedersen was born in 1984.

The guy you are talking about was Lars Gule, a local AUf leader in Bergen in the 1970's. Gule smuggled explosives for the DFLP, was arrested in Lebanon and served his sentence there, so he wasn't prosecuted in Norway. All of this has nothing to do with recent events. It's just the usual tin foil stuff from fascist blogs. You should consider being a bit pickier about your sources.

AII

Fragony

08-04-2011, 11:18

Fragony

08-04-2011, 11:38

Fragony

08-04-2011, 11:47

make that 'for some reason' Can't edit, odd it just doesn't react

Adrian II

08-04-2011, 12:14

Can't edit for a reason

And of course it matters as he is a beloved prominent figure of the left and a Bergen university darling, didn't exactly hurt is carreer. Kids getting butchered apparently doesn't matter if the cause is 100% ok

A former local (hot)head of AUF in the 1970's, that's what he is. He served his sentence and he has a right to a career like everyone else.

By your logic, I suppose the US Republicans would be antisemites because Pat Buchanan, a beloved extreme-rightwinger, is one.

Guilt by far-fetched association, that's all it is. Those kids on Utoya have to be guilty of something heinous to fit your world view. Get a life, Fragony, this is getting weird.

AII

Fragony

08-04-2011, 12:45

Kids are just victims

If they nobody agreed with him he wouldn't made it up so high. And if anti-Israel activist speeches are rewarded with tunderous aplause on a youth camp I tend to wonder why, what's it to them. Been imprinted, would they have cheered for the Free the Syrians in the same way? Of course not

Koga No Goshi

08-04-2011, 18:10

What is this I don't even.

Fragony

08-04-2011, 18:49

What is this I don't even.

Well maybe quotations help 'I am a supporter of a one state solution, exclusively for the Palestians' Don't worry it wasn't me who said it, it's what they say there, what they cheered for.

HoreTore

08-04-2011, 18:57

Ma'aloth was in 1974. Eskil Pedersen was born in 1984.

The guy you are talking about was Lars Gule, a local AUf leader in Bergen in the 1970's. Gule smuggled explosives for the DFLP, was arrested in Lebanon and served his sentence there, so he wasn't prosecuted in Norway. All of this has nothing to do with recent events. It's just the usual tin foil stuff from fascist blogs. You should consider being a bit pickier about your sources.

AII

:smash:

There are around 450 local divisons of AUF(roughly one per muncipality), and they all change leadership every 5 years or so. In other words, we're looking at around 2700 leaders, at least.

Of course some of them did something radical back in the day. I'm surprised the racist blogosphere has only fund one incident so far, actually.

Adrian II

08-04-2011, 19:16

I'm surprised the racist blogosphere has only fund one incident so far, actually.

Me too. Apart from taking money from Israeli and American right-wing Zionists and entertaining suspiciously close relations with the more zany Likud personalities, the Islamophobes also seem to use Israeli databases. Bat Ye'or is even married to an Israeli diplomat.

Reporters have hunches, too. Lately my hunch says that most of this anti-Islamcrap is imported into western countries straight from Israel. They're afraid we will drop support for Israel, hence they stoke up the fire in our neighbourhood.

AII

Fragony

08-04-2011, 20:06

'I'm surprised the racist blogosphere'

And that doesn't surprise me at all

HoreTore

08-04-2011, 20:16

Adrian II

08-04-2011, 20:19

Whereas we should be talking about Aubrey Chernick and his wife.

AII

HoreTore

08-04-2011, 20:25

Never heard of the fellow.

Do you have some interesting tales up your sleeve, Adrian?

Adrian II

08-04-2011, 20:40

Never heard of the fellow.

Do you have some interesting tales up your sleeve, Adrian?

No, but Chernick (http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/200/200993106/200993106_200812_990.pdf) has. Skip the intro, the fun starts on page 18.

AII

HoreTore

08-04-2011, 21:11

No, but Chernick (http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/200/200993106/200993106_200812_990.pdf) has. Skip the intro, the fun starts on page 18.

AII

I see a foundation which hands out a bunch of money to lots of organizations, most appear to be jewish and a lot of them seem obviously right-wing.

I'm waiting for you to fill in the gaps here...

Adrian II

08-04-2011, 21:21

I see a foundation which hands out a bunch of money to lots of organizations, most appear to be jewish and a lot of them seem obviously right-wing.

Look at the organisations. He's sponsoring three-quarters of the anti-Islam cabal: Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, David Horowitz, even the imposter Walid Shoeblat, the whole bloody lot of them.

This pattern is becoming all too familiar to me.

For instance Geert Wilders still refuses to disclose where he gets his money from. I have checked all his registered companies and foundations at the Dutch Chamber of Commerce. There is so little money in those, there is no way he could finance his movement with it. But he is close to the exact same cabal of Likud people, he speaks at their fundraisers and demos, both in the US and Israel. He is a great friend of Aryeh Eldad of the fascist National Union in the Knesset, etcetera etcetera.

Wherever you look in today's anti-Islam movement, you see rightwing American and Israeli Zionists. I am beginning to think that they may have had a big hand in both its inception and in its finances.

AII

P.S. Some more on this (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/41767_Page4.html)

P.P.S. Some more (http://www.opendemocracy.net/max-blumenthal/nation-against-islam-americas-new-crusade) from Max Blumenthal, a triple A journalist

Tellos Athenaios

08-04-2011, 23:23

Lately my hunch says that most of this anti-Islamcrap is imported into western countries straight from Israel. They're afraid we will drop support for Israel, hence they stoke up the fire in our neighbourhood.

Disagreed. I think it is very much a native development, probably quietly encouraged and privately cheered on by Israeli interests.

I think that Islam is merely a neat banner to affix blame for other ills too, in part because the more zany interpretations of Islam do directly proclaim them. However, the real thing to me seems a somewhat disenchanted electorate coupled with bad economic conditions who feel they are increasingly competing with immigrants (not true, they're no competition from the outset), for increasingly small job sector (which they'd rather not accept). Then there is the genuine problem of 2nd/3rd generation who are no longer what you can call immigrants, who by and large do fall in exactly the same socio-economic bracket as the disenchanted electorate: poor education and in particular language skills (of relevant languages in any case) and poorer career prospects. So the 2nd/3rd generation is a bit of a problem child, because on top of everything else they're not even competent in the language of the host country and pretty much all communication anyway. So they get attention.

In a broader political climate where a bunch of zany fundamentalists have just done Muslims the world over a huge favour by marking their version of Islam as particularly backward among other backward creeds, Islam as a whole becomes a legitimate target in the eyes of the broader public.

Hence we have (1) a legitimate story in the eyes of the broader public (after all Islam just became “the belief in flying planes into skyscrapers” whatever the truth of that is), (2) a scape goat for social ills, and so all we need is someone willing to harvest that unrest and make political profit by milking the immigrants for all the nasty Islam they're worth to get the broader electorate to consider them. Of course they also don't offer actual solutions grounded in any form of reality, because that would just make them hugely unpopular...

Simply populists who seized the day. They merely happen to be touting a pro Israel line. Or for comparison, if 9/11 had been a bunch of WBC types motivated because NY was too gay-friendly or something we'd been taking a much harder line on the SGP funding instead.

Adrian II

08-04-2011, 23:36

I think it is very much a native development, probably quietly encouraged and privately cheered on by Israeli interests.

That's more or less what I'm thinking. Blumenthal rightly states that the cabal took off only after 9/11 and there are many more circumstantial elements. But as shown above, there is more to Likud support than just private cheering. Private sponsoring of books, websites, speakers, videos, watchdogs, character assassination of academics, etcetera. That's not quiet encouragement, they're at the forefront of the movement.

AII

Tellos Athenaios

08-04-2011, 23:48

That's more or less what I'm thinking.
Oh, I guess I misunderstood your use of the words “imported from Israel”. It should be noted that popular opinion is also increasingly disappointed with Israel, so I imagine when the populist right perceives there were votes to be had in say 20 years time (i.e. when the current pro-Israel elderly have mostly died out) by taking on a strong boycott line they would jump on that bandwagon ASAP.

Adrian II

08-05-2011, 00:04

It should be noted that popular opinion is also increasingly disappointed with Israel

That would be the very motivation for this Likud 'offensive'. It is obvious that they think they would benefit from stoking up hatred and street violence and general animosity against islamic migrants in Europe, thereby alienating Arab public opinion from Europe and vice versa, possibly turning the clash of civilizations into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

AII

Fragony

08-05-2011, 07:10

What really fascinates me about Anders Breinæs' manifesto, 2103, is that he can cynically talk about how to best murder dozens of people - before he whines about how awful it is to be called a racist by those he was plotting to kill a few sentences further up.

I find it very descriptive for the entire racist community.

Also, I'm wondering when some of the racistblogs will talk about Mads Gilbert.

Et voila now it is the 'racist' community, the carefully conditioned mother of all nononoshutup reflexes. Tell me Horetore, the people who condition young minds to go into a cheering frenzy over a one state solution exclusively for the Palestians, what do they have in mind for the jews

'They're afraid we will drop support for Israel, hence they stoke up the fire in our neighbourhood.'

oh really