Can the Marian reforms happen early?

[Stelios]

Hi All,
I've been pursuing my goal to successfully complete a campaign (any campaign, it doesn't matter which), and as the Romani I've reached the year 202 B.C. One of my generals got a trait called "Potential Reformator," and has all the traits necessary to reform the army. However, this is thirty years too early. If I were to finish the 6 Latifundia in Italy and take a few more settlements (to get to 45), would I be able to reform the military? Or do generals just get that trait no matter how far along you are in the timeline, and it only takes effect after 172 B.C.? I'd guess the latter, but if someone could clarify, that would be great. Thanks!

P.S. Oh, and I'm not entirely sure how to use the search function on this forum very effectively. Would anyone be able to give me a crash course in how to do so?

[Vasiliyi]

It is actually very easy to get the Marians. Back up your EBBS_SCRIPT unless you know what you are doing.

1.Go to EB/Data/Scripts/show_me/EBBS_SCRIPT

2.Open EBBS_SCRIPT

3.Press Control button+F and type "Unconditional player reforms" into the search.

4. Click Find now twice.

5. it will read
"numberofsettlements seleucid > 99
Change that number to however many settlements you have.
6.Save and exit.

Start up EB and conquer one more city. Should work. This is of course cheating...

[Randal]

No, as far as I know you would not get any reform until the appropriate date is reached.

I started getting a few family members with the potential reformer trait around that time too, but no reforms followed. I'm not sure what factors govern the appearance of the trait but apparently it's something separate from the reforms themselves.

[Stelios]

Thanks for the responses, guys. Vasiliyi-good advice, however, you are right, it is cheating, and I'm ok with waiting around for them to happen normally. Randal- The FAQ says there has to be a family member who is S/C/V, Consul, Command 2+ and Influence 2+ in addition to the other stuff. So I bet this was the first time I got someone with all these qualifications after the Polybian reforms occured, and thats how you started getting the trait, too.

[Blxz]

I've never really understood the time requirement myself. EB tries to be historically accurate but I find a set date to be 'history on rails'. Provided that all the non-date requirements are met I don't see why those particular military reforms couldn't happen. If you have a large, unlanded population in Italy as represented by the latifunda. A man who has the required verve and motivation as indicated by the Potential Reformator (sp?) trait and a large empire that has a need for manpower and relaxed army laws as represented by a large empire with >45 towns. I see no reason why this man would decide that perhaps he should wait a few more decades. Its linking too heavily to what happened in our own time rather than an alternate timeline.

Also imagine if a reform date was set on Hayasdan to change from level 3 gov to level 1 just because no one united the area until much later in real history. Doesn't make sense in either case.

EDIT: I got off track, what I meant to say was that I edit out the date requirements always and if I am feeling particularly eager I will make the reformer trait harder to acheive in order to compensate. Feels more realistic and in many of my later games has actually made the reform happen later due to slow expansion or an unfortunate death of the wrong general at the wrong time. More fun for me but of course everyone is different.

[Ludens]

Traits cannot be restricted to a certain time-period, so the reformator trait will appear even when the reforms cannot occur yet.

As for the historical accuracy: in the Classical age, warfare was seen as a social duty, so military reforms often were the result of social changes. And social change takes time. The Romans did not reform their army because they wanted to, but because they had. The citizen-soldier was a deeply ingrained ideal, so it took an extended manpower crisis to make the switch to a professional army tenable.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

My ideal is for EB to be 'history on rails' when it comes to the activities of AI factions - I don't like THEM getting their reforms early - but I want to be able to have my own reforms early if I meet the requirements.

Yes, I want my cake and eat it. ;)

[Foot]

I've never really understood the time requirement myself. EB tries to be historically accurate but I find a set date to be 'history on rails'. Provided that all the non-date requirements are met I don't see why those particular military reforms couldn't happen. If you have a large, unlanded population in Italy as represented by the latifunda. A man who has the required verve and motivation as indicated by the Potential Reformator (sp?) trait and a large empire that has a need for manpower and relaxed army laws as represented by a large empire with >45 towns. I see no reason why this man would decide that perhaps he should wait a few more decades. Its linking too heavily to what happened in our own time rather than an alternate timeline.

date requirements are there to manage reform requirements that cannot be portrayed within the RTW engine (social change, etc). It would be impossible for the Marian reforms to have happened, say, at anytime within our timeframe because there were social requirements that were important, but that we cannot reasonably represent in any game mechanic. To ensure that a reasonable amount of time has passed to allow for these changes to occur in Roman society, we place a year, before which point the reforms could not happen. It is not history-on-rails, but a realistic interpretation of events and changes in society and government that we just cannot portray any other way.

Foot

[Blxz]

date requirements are there to manage reform requirements that cannot be portrayed within the RTW engine (social change, etc). It would be impossible for the Marian reforms to have happened, say, at anytime within our timeframe because there were social requirements that were important, but that we cannot reasonably represent in any game mechanic. To ensure that a reasonable amount of time has passed to allow for these changes to occur in Roman society, we place a year, before which point the reforms could not happen. It is not history-on-rails, but a realistic interpretation of events and changes in society and government that we just cannot portray any other way.

Foot

I stand corrected. But of course the best thing about EB is that each person is free to make their own changes. From now on I will realise how much of a cheater I am =)
Thanks for the explanation anyway.