31 US Soldiers (25 Navy SEALS) dead

[Papewaio]

Taliban are claiming that they shot down a Chinnok heli with 25 Navy SEALS & 7 Afghan soldiers aboard.

I havn't seen any news to confirm if it was definitely a rocket attack or mechanical failure.

Condolences to the families either way.

[Lemur]

It's confirmed (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_750431.html). Military is saying all of the dead were special ops, which makes a tragedy that much more painful.

[Fisherking]

A sad day.

My heart goes out to the families.

[Adrian II]

It's confirmed (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_750431.html). Military is saying all of the dead were special ops, which makes a tragedy that much more painful.

More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?

It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.

AII

[Centurion1]

More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?

It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.

AII

They got shot out of a Chinook helo :rolleyes:

If they killed them in a firefight I believe everybody would be a bit more shell shocked. Some of the SEALS have been unconfirmed members of seal team six which did the operation. The chances of the individuals who completed said mission being in theater is relatively low since the the military likes to pull out its SF forces for a while after such a high profile mission.

And I am sure that Lemur simply phrased that incorrectly because the life of anyone one individual is a tragedy and the death of any individual is as equally tragic as the loss of any others.

[Major Robert Dump]

This is what happens when we run missions with our Afghan "partners." 5th incident I know of in two weeks, and I am very much out-of-the-loop this time around, so I am sure there are more. I will explain more in a few days.

[Shibumi]

This incident would almost make you believe there is a war going on or something.

[Adrian II]

This incident would almost make you believe there is a war going on or something.

It's our war and these guys were our allies. Could members at least postpone dancing on their remains until after they are buried?

AII

[rory_20_uk]

Our war? Really? That's news to me. UK soldiers have been dragged into a war the USA is fighting to get back at some terrorists, but it is not ours.

And so we can only celebrate the assassination of "bad" people - by the colleagues of these very people who, incidentally, are the "good" guys.

~:smoking:

[Lemur]

More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?
Yes, painful as a military loss, and painful for us as a nation. Tier-one special forces operatives are expensive to train and expensive to equip. And they don't come along every day.

Let's put it this way, if a bus crashes and kills the high school diving team, that's a tragedy. If the same bus crashes and kills your elite olympic diving team, it's still a tragedy, but also a national loss.

I'm not making any sense. Never mind. Adrian doesn't like me and he picks on me at recess and he steals my lunch money.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Our war? Really? That's news to me. UK soldiers have been dragged into a war the USA is fighting to get back at some terrorists, but it is not ours.

And so we can only celebrate the assassination of "bad" people - by the colleagues of these very people who, incidentally, are the "good" guys.

~:smoking:

Libya.

[Adrian II]

I'm not making any sense. Never mind. Adrian doesn't like me and he picks on me at recess and he steals my lunch money.

No, I was just asking, honestly. I know ur no fool, Lemur. :bow:

AII

[Ronin]

Libya.

for that to be a complete parallel situation the US would have to have actual boots on the ground in Libya...

as to the actual subject of the topic...to be expected...it's a war....soldiers die in war.

[Louis VI the Fat]

More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?

It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.

AIIGod? No, that is seeing what you believe. Thr 'OBL squad (members)' could be more likely to get killed for a number of reasons. Two in particular I guess might have been at work here. One, Afghan allies getting even. Afghan enemies of themselves had no information on who these people were, Afghan 'alies' quite possibly did.
And /or. two, this squad (or members) getting reckless, thinking themselves invincible, superior, on top of the world.


I remember I cheered OBL's demise - albeit after he was buried. (which most conveniently was over and done with the minute the news broke :wink:)
I suppose we're all entitled to picking a side. Personally I had rather 31 Taliban had perished.

[Hosakawa Tito]

for that to be a complete parallel situation the US would have to have actual boots on the ground in Libya...

as to the actual subject of the topic...to be expected...it's a war....soldiers die in war.

You're under the impression that there are no US/UK/French special forces boots on the ground in Libya? Interesting. Who started that Libyan intervention thing by the way hmm? Or is it just bombing, with no boots on the ground it really isn't hostilities by the US allies "trained killers" is it, nice and clean and humanitarian like. In war young men die. Y'all want to cheer that's up to you and your values.

God? No, that is seeing what you believe. Thr 'OBL squad (members)' could be more likely to get killed for a number of reasons. Two in particular I guess might have been at work here. One, Afghan allies getting even. Afghan enemies of themselves had no information on who these people were, Afghan 'alies' quite possibly did.
And /or. two, this squad (or members) getting reckless, thinking themselves invincible, superior, on top of the world.


I remember I cheered OBL's demise - albeit after he was buried. (which most conveniently was over and done with the minute the news broke :wink:)
I suppose we're all entitled to picking a side. Personally I had rather 31 Taliban had perished.

There's a report that the Seals were on a rescue mission to aid a Ranger unit that was pinned down. Seems they got hit when the attacking force had been suppressed and the mission was almost over.

[Adrian II]

There's a report that the Seals were on a rescue mission to aid a Ranger unit that was pinned down. Seems they got hit when the attacking force had been suppressed and the mission was almost over.

Pentagon says it was a 'lucky shot' with an rpg. But they've said that before (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-taliban-missile-strike-chinook) for pr reasons, in cases where the Taliban had used a surface to air missile.

Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.

These are just everyday human considerations, every one of you is capable of understanding them. To applaud their death is unnecessary and spiteful, to put it mildly.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

To applaud their death is unnecessary and spiteful, to put it mildly.

AIIIf Breivik had been killed midway his act, I would've applauded his death. Say, if a Norwegian police bullet had stopped him after his tenth, instead of his eightieth victim.
If Breivik would've gotten away, and had spend the past two weeks sending around triumphant, gleeful messages and tips for copycats, then if today the Norwegians would've found him and shot him in a forest cabin in Sweden I would've applauded it.
If they would've shot him in his woodland cabin ten years later, I still would've applauded it.

In all cases, I would've applauded the Norwegian police, would've welcomed the justice being done, and would've cheered this man's violent death.


Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.From a pacifist or humatirarian point of view one can decry all loss of life. If one isn't a pacifist, at least not absolutely so, then why should one decry all loss of life in a conflict? One does not get a free pass, free entitlement to sympathy, simply for being a fighter in an armed conflict. On the contrary, I am tempted to say.

[Adrian II]

One does not get a free pass, free entitlement to sympathy, simply for being a fighter in an armed conflict.

Awesome. We have a strawman.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

Awesome. We have a strawman.

AIIIt's not a strawman, it is a conscious further exploration of the subject.


This calls for an actual strawman, with an order of Godwin on the side :beam::

Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.So if Hitler's troops can claim they were just following orders, you would forbid us from wanting them stopped?

[Adrian II]

So if Hitler's troops can claim they were just following orders, you would forbid us from wanting them stopped?

I want these gratuitous jokes about dead allies to stop.

AII

[Strike For The South]

I love the smell of moral relativism in the morning

Sometimes you have to pick a side fellas

[Slyspy]

I often wonder whether the constant detailing of casualties is entirely healthy.

[Major Robert Dump]

If we didn't detail casualties the Taliban would claim they killed 10x what they really did and we would have to clean up the mess. Being the first and the most forthcoming is always the best option in reporting, even if not everyone always does so.

[Fisherking]

Among the 25 U.S. special operations forces killed in Wardak province were 22 Navy SEALS

The majority of the Navy SEALs who died belonged to the same covert unit that conducted the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May, though they were not the same men, the military official said.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f2c_1312681283


A British marine killed on Friday while on foot patrol in the Nad-e Ali district of Helmand province was shot by militants, the Ministry of Defence has announced.
The dead soldier was confirmed as 22-year-old Royal Marine James Robert Wright from Weymouth, Dorset.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/107982


I assume that the other three US troops were the helicopter crew consisting of two pilots and the crew chief.

Also killed were 7 Afghan Commandos and a civilian interpreter.


Disagreeing with government policies (Wars) are one thing. Calling the men who are ordered there by those governments derogatory names and blaming them for the conflict is another matter.

They do not decide policy but only carry it out. Like any other government employee they may be charged with carrying out policies they deeply disagree with. However, they do not have the option to just say no and quit.

They were on a mission to rescue other troops pinned down by opposing forces.

To me it doesn’t matter if they came from an elite unit or support troops, US, British, German, Canadian, or anyone else.

They were in service to their country and their deaths are tragic for their friends and families.

[Ronin]

Y'all want to cheer that's up to you and your values.
If you think my simple observation that there is a war on, that people die in war, and I am not particularly surprised this occurs is the same as me cheering then we have a serious failure of communication here.
Just to check...we are using English right???


I often wonder whether the constant detailing of casualties is entirely healthy.

shaddap...we have a 24 hours news media thing going here.......come on, they can´t just scream about the stock market all day....we need some variety in there.

[Skullheadhq]

Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?

[HoreTore]

As Tolstoj puts it in War and Peace:

"Had Napoleons corporals not agreed to join again, there would be no war."

[Fisherking]

Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?

It was not the same people who went for OBL. When they find that out they will have to scrape the egg off their faces.

To some people everything is a conspiracy.

[Major Robert Dump]

We have been getting accused by Pakistan and the Karsai government of killing our own troops and supplying the Taliban with weapons for 3 years now. Again, back to the illiterate Afghan theme. They say we are doing it to justify staying in Afghanistan so we can, ya know, exploit its riches. Several incidents of Afghan forces killing NATO troops have been sparked by this very rumor, to include one a month ago.

[Ronin]

Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?

you´re a part of it aren´t you? :inquisitive:

you don´t fool me! I know the truth, I have the documents!

[Papewaio]

It's all about the tin man!

The Brotherhood of the Tin is controlling the government, the media and its allies the Copper-ites dropping in with a splash.

They are making all these consipracies to sell more hats.

[Centurion1]

Among the 25 U.S. special operations forces killed in Wardak province were 22 Navy SEALS

The majority of the Navy SEALs who died belonged to the same covert unit that conducted the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May, though they were not the same men, the military official said.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f2c_1312681283


A British marine killed on Friday while on foot patrol in the Nad-e Ali district of Helmand province was shot by militants, the Ministry of Defence has announced.
The dead soldier was confirmed as 22-year-old Royal Marine James Robert Wright from Weymouth, Dorset.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/107982


I assume that the other three US troops were the helicopter crew consisting of two pilots and the crew chief.

Also killed were 7 Afghan Commandos and a civilian interpreter.


Disagreeing with government policies (Wars) are one thing. Calling the men who are ordered there by those governments derogatory names and blaming them for the conflict is another matter.

They do not decide policy but only carry it out. Like any other government employee they may be charged with carrying out policies they deeply disagree with. However, they do not have the option to just say no and quit.

They were on a mission to rescue other troops pinned down by opposing forces.

To me it doesn’t matter if they came from an elite unit or support troops, US, British, German, Canadian, or anyone else.

They were in service to their country and their deaths are tragic for their friends and families.

The air crew are essentially SF members as well. They were from 160th SOAR

[Lemur]

Some details about the men who died (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110808/ap_on_re_us/us_afghanistan_crash_vignettes).

[Adrian II]

Some details about the men who died (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110808/ap_on_re_us/us_afghanistan_crash_vignettes).

Sounds as if they're sort of a '9/11' generation.

AII

[Centurion1]

Sounds as if they're sort of a '9/11' generation.

AII

Possibly though most would likely have ended up in the military. The kind of people who become SF aren't made into that you still need a block of marble which is rare and expensive. Most of those men are going to highly intelligent in every sense of the world many will have bachelors and even graduate degrees and obviously they will be physical freaks in numerous ways. Army Green Berets usually know a few languages for instance along with the ability to field strip an M4 in god knows what ridiculously short period of time.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I love the smell of moral relativism in the morning

I hate that smell. There is a right and a wrong, life likes to smash and blend the two together in most situations but it is never anything goes or up to the individual to decide what is good or bad.

[Centurion1]

I hate that smell. There is a right and a wrong, life likes to smash and blend the two together in most situations but it is never anything goes or up to the individual to decide what is good or bad.

An individual can root for his soldiers and be happy when they kill the enemy and sad when they lose their lives and that isn't wrong.

However, I find celebrating death in any manner distasteful and that includes people like OBL. Did I find a sweet secret pleasure at knowing he was dead? Hell yes, that doesn't mean however I went parading about the streets waving flags and screaming to the heavens. An evil man was dead and I was pleased at what I saw as justice it doesn't mean I am going to go drink myself to oblivion in celebration.

[a completely inoffensive name]

An individual can root for his soldiers and be happy when they kill the enemy and sad when they lose their lives and that isn't wrong.

When the war is just, I agree.



However, I find celebrating death in any manner distasteful and that includes people like OBL. Did I find a sweet secret pleasure at knowing he was dead? Hell yes, that doesn't mean however I went parading about the streets waving flags and screaming to the heavens. An evil man was dead and I was pleased at what I saw as justice it doesn't mean I am going to go drink myself to oblivion in celebration.

Completely agree. Odd how when I said this in the OBL thread, I got a lot of backlash. Perhaps I communicated it wrong.

[Centurion1]

When the war is just, I agree.



Completely agree. Odd how when I said this in the OBL thread, I got a lot of backlash. Perhaps I communicated it wrong.

I said the same thing. I'm not going to lie I wasn't said and I was a little gleeful but I didn't party because of it.

I partied regardless

[Major Robert Dump]

Now that it's being openly discussed:

The intel about the alleged HVTs that would be present came from the Taliban and was filtered through Afghan security sources.

Afghan security forces had laid a nearby cordone and the area in which the bird was shot down had allegedly been "cleared." It was the only avenue of approach, we knew that and the Taliban knew that, which is why we wanted it cleared. As usual, stellar job by the afghans.

[Lemur]

We have so many wonderful friends in that part of the world. With OBL dead, can we just declare victory and bug out? Seems like time. If we're not going to do like the Romans and put in a proconsul and crucify thousands who oppose us, mebbe it's time to go home.

[Papewaio]

'But it's not the Fourth Roman Empire, it's just a very naughty superpower.'

'First, never get involved in a land war in Asia.'

Seriously you break it, you buy it.

Bombing something back into the stone ages mean that you broke it, broke it good... so you need to repair it or watch Iran setup Beirut II.

[Ronin]

Bombing something back into the stone ages

well..to be kinda fair, when it comes to Afganistan that might have been an improvement.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Actually, Shibumi, the original concept of the USA Special Forces (nicknamed green berets for their headgear) was a group of soldiers trained in asymetric tactics who would work with and/or command indigenous personnel from the locale in which they were placed. As such, they often had quite a lot in the way of language skills and picked up more during service overseas. While few of the SF folks are likely to redesign NASA rocket engines or tailor viruses to attack cancerous tumors, they are on the whole a reasonably bright group with training in languages, medicine, civil engineering, and education as well as the more common mayhem skills.

Army Rangers were the ones who were to be "super soldiers" -- achieve the mission at all costs as though you were a MAG avatar and not a breathing, thinking person. We don't really field units of Rangers much anymore.

The SEALS tend to be a bit betwixt and between. They have a lot of the super soldier stuff, but also get a lot of emphasis on diving, engineering and the like. SEAL Six is also a counter terrorist group, so they pick up hostage rescue etc as well. Not generally a good slot for "gun-bunny/hold the gray matter."

[Centurion1]

Actually, Shibumi, the original concept of the USA Special Forces (nicknamed green berets for their headgear) was a group of soldiers trained in asymetric tactics who would work with and/or command indigenous personnel from the locale in which they were placed. As such, they often had quite a lot in the way of language skills and picked up more during service overseas. While few of the SF folks are likely to redesign NASA rocket engines or tailor viruses to attack cancerous tumors, they are on the whole a reasonably bright group with training in languages, medicine, civil engineering, and education as well as the more common mayhem skills.

Army Rangers were the ones who were to be "super soldiers" -- achieve the mission at all costs as though you were a MAG avatar and not a breathing, thinking person. We don't really field units of Rangers much anymore.

The SEALS tend to be a bit betwixt and between. They have a lot of the super soldier stuff, but also get a lot of emphasis on diving, engineering and the like. SEAL Six is also a counter terrorist group, so they pick up hostage rescue etc as well. Not generally a good slot for "gun-bunny/hold the gray matter."

Two active battalions of Army Rangers and they are very vital to the mission actually for their air assault capabilities and superior training to regular infantry units. They also often serve as SF security.

Army Rangers are not part of the Spec OPS family they are sort of a ginger step child between SF and regular units and serve the niche role of elite infantry.

[Adrian II]

And as a sidenote: 18 weeks of language training will not exactly make you master the language.

Nope. I speak three foreign languages fluently and each took me several years + a stay in the country in question + talent which I inherited from my parents.

After 18 weeks, and only if you're really good, you can at best read a newspaper in said language with the help of a dictionary.

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

Re-opened after some cleaning due to rioting. A troll was shot dead and some posts have been closed down to preserve public order.

Any more misbehaviour and the dragoons will be sent in. :charge:

[Shibumi]

??

I have no idea what I am even replying to anymore.

A big question mark towards the moderator Banquo's Ghost.

Infraction based on: "Your confrontational style is not appreciated". No hint what so ever about what was wrong with the post, just a general.. what exactly?? You are not supposed to be confrontational on the internet? When ideas clash, you should.. embrace it?

Absolutely horrid moderating IMNSHO, send in the dragoons (I hope they do a better, or at least a more comprehensible job).

[Major Robert Dump]

This one is going the way of the Jessica Lynch rescue celebration thread several years ago. A guy can't even make a thread about his humanitarian work in afghanistan without getting trolled in both the frontroom and the backroom. I recall announcing my mission last year and having one member say if I kill anyone he hopes I die as well. And then, to add insult to injury, they delete my posts in the front room about how much I love prostitutes. What is this world coming to??

I have now had two posts deleted in this thread so I will sit this one out.

[Papewaio]

That's a pity I thought boots on the ground and missions like the one you are attached to were where the real positive change was being made.

[Centurion1]

not sure what my posts did but gone they are.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Re-opening the thread does not seem to have improved the on topic discussion.

Members who have concerns about the moderation here should raise their queries in the Watchtower. A passing familiarity with the rules (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?109341-For-Reference-The-Backroom-Rules-Explained) also helps to reduce confusion.