London riots

[Adrian II]

After a second night of mayhem, not just in Tottenham but now also in Brixton, Enfield, Waltham Forest, Islington and Oxford Circus, can members explain to me what's what?

During the 2005 Paris riots we were told by Louis and others that islam was to blame.

I suppose Christianity is to blame for the Tottenham riots, since most of the local inhabitants are from Christian communities.

How do we deal with the Christian mob violence in our innner cities?

AII

[Fragony]

aim -> shoot

[Louis VI the Fat]

I blame the destruction of social cohesion by the double onslaught of retreating governments and the social disintegration of civic society because of multiculturalism.
After a second night of mayhem, not just in Tottenham but now also in Brixton, Enfield, Waltham Forest, Islington and Oxford Circus, can members explain to me what's what?

During the 2005 Paris riots we were told by Louis and others that islam was to blame.

I suppose Christianity is to blame for the Tottenham riots, since most of the local inhabitants are from Christian communities.

How do we deal with the Christian mob violence in our innner cities?

AIII didn't blame Islam, did I? I am quite secular in my fascism so I just blame immigrants outright. :shrug:


I do remember you smiting me with endless essays by your favourite philosophes arguing that anything and everything, except Islam, had anything to do with Musim youth being the most violent and criminal in all of France.

[Adrian II]

I blame the destruction of social cohesion by the double onslaught of retreating governments and the social disintegration of civic society because of multiculturalism.

You take the easy way out, hein? Ze immigration beum - how clevair of yoo, Cateu!

No, my friend, these are predominantly white Christian boroughs. I looked into the Metropolitan Police's crime stats and it appears that property crime and rape are very high in Christian areas such as Haringey and Enfield. Must have something to do with their belief in the afterlife, they just don' t value this life as much as the rest of us do I guess.

This begs the question: how well are Christians integrated in today's society? Shouldn't we conclude that this multireligiousness nonsense has been a failure and that modern society just can't cope with a high concentration of Christians in one place?

AII

[Centurion1]

I blame the destruction of social cohesion by the double onslaught of retreating governments and the social disintegration of civic society because of multiculturalism.I didn't blame Islam, did I? I am quite secular in my fascism so I just blame immigrants outright. :shrug:


I do remember you smiting me with endless essays by your favourite philosophes arguing that anything and everything, except Islam, had anything to do with Musim youth being the most violent and criminal in all of France.

Immigrants really have nothing to do with secularism..............

[Centurion1]

You take the easy way out, hein? Ze immigration beum - how clevair of yoo, Cateu!

No, my friend, these are predominantly white Christian boroughs. I looked into the Metropolitan Police's crime stats and it appears that property crime and rape are very high in Christian areas such as Haringey and Enfield. Must have something to do with their belief in the afterlife, they just don' t value this life as much as the rest of us do I guess.

This begs the question: how well are Christians integrated in today's society? Shouldn't we conclude that this multireligiousness nonsense has been a failure and that modern society just can't cope with a high concentration of Christians in one place?

AII

STRAWMAN ALERT

[Furunculus]

or perhaps we should conclude that large and poorly integrated immigrant communities are responsible for most of the crime and violence in the areas they inhabit.

stat - 80% of gun crime is black on black. 75% of that remaining 20% of gun crime involves both white and black people.

[Skullheadhq]

This begs the question: how well are Christians integrated in today's society?

You mean, as integrated in the Christian tradition out of which society arose , I'd say well integrated. D'66-ers on the other hand...
Liberals don't have a monopoly on society, you know. Even the majority hasn't.

[Strike For The South]

See what happens when the Spurs finish 5th?

I still blame the muslims, how dare they continue to make people feel uneasy about various things

[Fragony]

Quite the mess http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023254/Tottenham-riot-Mark-Duggan-shooting-sparked-police-beating-girl.html cool pics though

[Skullheadhq]

aim -> shoot

Cameron should look to the great men of the past, like Justinian the Great. I think Emirates Stadium can be used for a rehearsel of the Nika Riot solution.


As Justinian rallied himself, he created a plan that involved Narses, a popular eunuch, as well as the generals, Belisarius and Mundus. Carrying a bag of gold given to him by Justinian, the slightly built eunuch entered the Hippodrome alone and unarmed, against a murderous mob that had already killed hundreds. Narses went directly to the Blues' section, where he approached the important Blues and reminded them that Emperor Justinian supported them over the Greens. He also reminded them that the man they were crowning, Hypatius, was a Green. Then, he distributed the gold. The Blue leaders spoke quietly with each other and then they spoke to their followers. Then, in the middle of Hypatius's coronation, the Blues stormed out of the Hippodrome. The Greens sat, stunned. Then, Imperial troops led by Belisarius and Mundus stormed into the Hippodrome, killing the remaining rebels.

About thirty thousand rioters were reportedly killed.[4] Justinian also had Hypatius executed and exiled the senators who had supported the riot. He then rebuilt Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia, and was free to establish his rule.

So Labour Party/unions, prepare yourselves :laugh4:

[Fragony]

Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus is the better options since it are christians

[HoreTore]

This is caused by what the left has said for years and years - poverty.

The difference between the rich and the poor has increased dramatically, so it's only natural that events like this occur.

[PanzerJaeger]

///

[Fragony]

Police may have some explaining to do, the bullet found in the car is police-ammo

[Skullheadhq]

Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus is the better options since it are christians
"christians"
"rioting"

Implying the Bible (and the epistles of Paul in particular) even allows rioting instead of unconditional submission to the state, even the diocletian persecutions were met with unresisted martyrdom. Me thinks those are poor, leftwing atheists.

Or would someone that adhered to this riot against the destruction of social security?


We did not accept anyone's support without paying for it. Instead, we worked and toiled; we kept working day and night so as not to be an expense to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to demand our support; we did it to be an example for you to follow. While we were with you, we used to tell you, “Whoever refuses to work is not allowed to eat.”
We say this because we hear that there are some people among you who live lazy lives and who do nothing except meddle in other people's business. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we command these people and warn them to lead orderly lives and work to earn their own living.

Really, if every white man is a Christian, is every brown man a muslim then?

And Diocletian persecutions were pointless genocide, the supression of the Nika riots were just, like uhm, the supression of riots?

[Adrian II]

Police may have some explaining to do

Nah, the Christian churches have a lot of explaining to do. Have you seen what they preach in these areas? The Jamaicans are taught that the West is Babylon, the whore of the world. The Irish and Nigerians in Haringey or Enfield are told by their Catholic clergy that the Church of England and all other Protestants are heretics. The Ghanese have all these Adventist and Presbyterian churches where they are taught that modern western society with all its temptations is the devil incarnate.

Why can't they all be chavs and binge drinkers like the rest of Britain? Then you wouldn't be having this trouble.

AII

[Skullheadhq]

Nah, the Christian churches have a lot of explaining to do. Have you seen what they preach in these areas? The Jamaicans are taught that the West is Babylon, the whore of the world. The Irish and Nigerians in Haringey or Enfield are told by their Catholic clergy that the Church of England and all other Protestants are heretics. The Ghanese have all these Adventist and Presbyterian churches where they are taught that modern western society with all its temptations is the devil incarnate.

Why can't they all be chavs and binge drinkers like the rest of Britain? Then you wouldn't be having this trouble.

AII

Ah, because different christian groups don't like eachother and modernism, anarchist scum are setting London aflame. Makes NO sense at all.
In fact, those chavs are now burning down London, be glad christians aren't like that.

[Papewaio]

You mean, as integrated in the Christian tradition out of which society arose

Societies predate Christendom in the British Isles for starters (Druids for instance) and everywhere else for that matter. Christianity is a reflection of the environment of the worshippers... earlier religions were more animal spirits, then half animal-man (think Egyptian), then groups of manlike beings (Greek Pantheon), then a paternal religion reflecting the civics of the period.

So your statement is the wrong way round. Christianity arose out of society, society did not rise out of Christianity.

[Adrian II]

Ah, because different christian groups don't like eachother and modernism anarchist scum are setting London aflame. Makes NO sense at all.

Because they all loath modern western society, that's why. Their Christian god tells them that the rest of us are doomed unless we adopt their faith and submit. This is the result of years and years of Christian indoctrination and it has been happening right under our noses.

AII

[Skullheadhq]

Because they all loath modern western society, that's why. Their Christian God tells them that the rest of us are doomed unless we adopt their faith and submit. This is the result of years and years of Christian indoctrination and it has been happening right under our noses.

AII

And the problem being? They don't persecute you, now do they. Nor blow you up, stone you, hang you or decapitate you in any way, some religions handle this different...



PS: why are you derailing your own thread?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think the ironic characterisation of "Christian responsibility" to make a rather tired point has had quite enough airing. It is now bordering on religion bashing and deliberate provocation whilst not having much merit as a debating point.

There is plenty to discuss about these riots without resorting to caricature.

(And yes, before the wounded rules lawyers pipe up, I've admonished the same attitude when it's paraded at Muslims).

[Fragony]

This is kinda hilarious in a in-your-face kinda way, Ghaddafi supports the London freedom fighters :laugh4:

[Skullheadhq]

This is kinda hilarious in a in-your-face kinda way, Ghaddafi supports the London freedom fighters :laugh4:

HAHAHAHAHA! He's the best troll in international politics ever.
Also, do you have a link?

[Fragony]

HAHAHAHAHA! He's the best troll in international politics ever.
Also, do you have a link?

Geenstijl says, dunno where they got it from but they are almost never wrong

[Adrian II]

And the problem being? They don't persecute you, now do they. Nor blow you up, stone you, hang you or decapitate you in any way, some religions handle this different...



PS: why are you derailing your own thread?

I've been told to shut up since I'm tiresome, so the thread is all yours. :bow:

AII

[Ronin]

This is kinda hilarious in a in-your-face kinda way, Ghaddafi supports the London freedom fighters :laugh4:

awesome!

[Rhyfelwyr]

This is caused by what the left has said for years and years - poverty.

So why is this rioting taking place in London and not the much poorer parts in the north or in Scotland/Wales?


This is kinda hilarious in a in-your-face kinda way, Ghaddafi supports the London freedom fighters :laugh4:

lmao

Anyway, I couldn't help but notice that the vast majority of rioters that I've seen in the pics are black or brown.

Mr. Duggan was also at least mixed-race.

[Papewaio]

And the problem being? They don't persecute you, now do they. Nor blow you up, stone you, hang you or decapitate you in any way, some religions handle this different...


"his attackers were trying to decapitate him. Witnesses say that having wrenched his helmet from him, his attackers then repeatedly stabbed him in the body, and continuously hacked away at his neck. He lost several fingers as he tried to defend himself before the attackers fled, as more police, firemen, and ambulance men moved in to try and save him...the injuries were so grievous that it did appear the men were trying to behead the man"

[Fragony]

"his attackers were trying to decapitate him. Witnesses say that having wrenched his helmet from him, his attackers then repeatedly stabbed him in the body, and continuously hacked away at his neck. He lost several fingers as he tried to defend himself before the attackers fled, as more police, firemen, and ambulance men moved in to try and save him...the injuries were so grievous that it did appear the men were trying to behead the man"

This happened in London?

[johnhughthom]

This happened in London?

A policeman murdered in riots in the same area 25 years ago. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Keith_Blakelock)

[HoreTore]

So why is this rioting taking place in London and not the much poorer parts in the north or in Scotland/Wales?.

Such events usually take place in the capitol, or at least another major city, first.

Also, general wealth level isn't a good indicator for riots. To me, and the rest of the left, the answer lies in the difference between the poor and the rich. The greater the difference, the less harmoneous the society will be.

Another factor is the concentration of the unemployed. Let's say you have an area of one square km. If you spread the unemployed all over the area, you will have less chance of a riot than if you put all the unemployed in the same building.

[HoreTore]

We have tales of great riots during the late 1800's and early 1900's as well. We had a very monocultural society back then, but we still managed to hack away at the police and torch buildings.

This was in the days before the workers movement gained power, a time when the difference beteen the have's and e havenot's was huge. Thus, riots occured.



It's not race, religion, politics or whatever. The answer to this issue is the same as almost every other issue; money.

But fixing the wealth difference is hard and unpleasant, so I guess it's a lot more fun to bury your head in the sand and blame black people.

[Cute Wolf]

is that riot organized by republicans? I heard they plan to overthrow the royalty 'soon' in republic.co.uk when will and kate married, that could be their plan.

[Skullheadhq]

"his attackers were trying to decapitate him. Witnesses say that having wrenched his helmet from him, his attackers then repeatedly stabbed him in the body, and continuously hacked away at his neck. He lost several fingers as he tried to defend himself before the attackers fled, as more police, firemen, and ambulance men moved in to try and save him...the injuries were so grievous that it did appear the men were trying to behead the man"

rioters =/= christians.

[HoreTore]

rioters =/= christians.

But thieves and rapists are still muslim, right?

[Kagemusha]

Maybe they were bored? We had the "slut walk" march here at Helsinki last weekend, which kind of stole the attention of many.:2thumbsup:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Thousands+gather+for+SlutWalk+marches+in+three+Finnish+cities/1135268360318

[johnhughthom]

It was probably a bunch of paddies who realised that spending every summer rioting in Belfast was counterproductive, so decided to branch out and wreck a different city this year. Though that probably gives the Irish more credit for intelligence and non-self destructivitytm than they deserve.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, it's hot, people are losing their jobs - so they riot.

The fact that the Tories are in power is just another symptom of the malaise of the country. The Tories get in when Labour breaks the bank and are thus turfed out.

So, glad I live in leafy poverty afflicted Devon.

[Fragony]

Maybe they were bored? We had the "slut walk" march here at Helsinki last weekend, which kind of stole the attention of many.:2thumbsup:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Thousands+gather+for+SlutWalk+marches+in+three+Finnish+cities/1135268360318

GAWD do they really HAVE to be ugly at slutwalks, I'd kick my dog from that if I had one

[Kagemusha]

:laugh4:

[Ronin]

is that riot organized by republicans? I heard they plan to overthrow the royalty 'soon' in republic.co.uk when will and kate married, that could be their plan.

that one was so easy to mess up...not sure why no one went through with this one:

Warning: Frequent bad language


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl31z4m5WNg

[gaelic cowboy]

Fresh violence on streets of London (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0808/tottenham.html)

Apparently there at it again in Hackney

[Strike For The South]

And the problem being? They don't persecute you, now do they. Nor blow you up, stone you, hang you or decapitate you in any way, some religions handle this different...
?

The problem being they destroy things and disrupt the processes that allow them to wear that wonderfully burberry

Any civilzation worth its weight in salt has in the best of times been ambivalent of religon.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The inevitable and pointless tangent into badly informed interpretative Islam has arrived and duly been deleted. Please stay on topic.


It was probably a bunch of paddies who realised that spending every summer rioting in Belfast was counterproductive, so decided to branch out and wreck a different city this year. Though that probably gives the Irish more credit for intelligence and non-self destructivitytm than they deserve.

Either the bravest or craziest post in the Backroom this year, given that two moderators here are Irish or Irish descent. Oh, how many rules can I decide that this breaks? :evil:

[Fragony]

A tiny tiny tiiiiiiiiny bit of protest, first I am not all that ill-informed, and even gave an example of how bad interpetation can lead to confusion. That's nuance

[HoreTore]

Either the bravest or craziest post in the Backroom this year, given that two moderators here are Irish or Irish descent. Oh, how many rules can I decide that this breaks? :evil:

I see only truth in that post.

You're just trying to suppress the TRUTH

[Fisherking]

Lemmings!

Can we bring back the blood sacrifice?

[gaelic cowboy]

Lemmings!

Can we bring back the blood sacrifice?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSnLU9nyFSA

[Tellos Athenaios]

It was probably a bunch of paddies who realised that spending every summer rioting in Belfast was counterproductive, so decided to branch out and wreck a different city this year. Though that probably gives the Irish more credit for intelligence and non-self destructivitytm than they deserve.

Besides, they found it probably a lot easier to troll the Metropolitan than their local Gardai: the Metropolitan is always eager to rise to a taunt. ... Or a camera, for that matter.

[Centurion1]

The inevitable and pointless tangent into badly informed interpretative Islam has arrived and duly been deleted. Please stay on topic.



Either the bravest or craziest post in the Backroom this year, given that two moderators here are Irish or Irish descent. Oh, how many rules can I decide that this breaks? :evil:

Everyone in the US has some Irish in them. You wouldn't be hard pressed to find Irish descent.

What bothers me is the British's proclivity to rioting. You crazy :daisy: always seem to be throwing off the shackles of oppression in one way or another. :laugh:

[johnhughthom]

Everyone in the US has some Irish in them.

And twice as much English. Not supposed to mention that though, plastic paddies the lot of you. :creep:

[Fragony]

Riots in Birmingham as well, I must admit that you labour-folks are really good at rubbing diversity in the noses of the right and render their arguments out of date.

[Tellos Athenaios]

What bothers me is the British's proclivity to rioting. You crazy :daisy: always seem to be throwing off the shackles of oppression in one way or another. :laugh:

... what's more disturbing given the above is their inclination towards their being enchained. ~;)

[drone]

Pffft. Compared to the French, the Brits are rank amateurs.

Let me know when White Hart Lane is burnt to the ground.

[HoreTore]

Let me know when White Hart Lane is burnt to the ground.

Where can the Chelsea fans recreate the holocaust if that happens?

[johnhughthom]

What these events clearly show is that London is not a safe place for the Olympic games, it is obvious that the IOC is a corrupt body after having chosen such an unsuitable place for the worlds greatest sporting event.

[Adrian II]

Well, the explanations we've seen so far are: race and racism, immigration, poverty and the Irish. They're all plain nonsense. I have to say my spoofing references to christianity and well-integrated chavs were a lot more relevant.

The first incisive piece of comment is in, though. It's from the Telegraph.


This is the most arcane of uprisings and the most modern. Its participants, marshalled by Twitter, are protagonists in a sinister flipside to the Arab Spring. The Tottenham summer, featuring children as young as seven, is an assault not on a regime of tyranny but on the established order of a benign democracy. One question now hangs over London’s battle-torn high streets. How could this ever happen?

She then gives an answer (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html) that I can at least make sense of.

AII

[tibilicus]

To anyone that tries to play the "socially deprived youth" argument, don't be so ignorant.

The left, as the opportunistic scum they are of course will try and link this with the government but they're way wrong. It's nothing to do with social cuts, the very same scum which burn down their communities live off that same welfare package they're supposedly "revolting" against. These are people which are so excluded from society they CHOOSE to drop out of education. They CHOOSE to loot and they CHOOSE to instigate such behavior after an anti-police protest for a poor innocent hoodlum gunned down brutally by British bobbies. A lot of people have failed to grasp the fact that guy, whose name slips my mind as he is such an irrelevant bit of trash actually fired at the police first. His family apparently want answers, tell them their son was dirt and he deserved what he got.

I personally say let them destroy their communities, if that is their wish. Just set up an exclusion zone and shoot any of the vermin which try and loot outside that exclusion zone. For anyone who calls me out on being too harsh and being incorrect, who suggest their is a political motive, has anyone ever been the Hackney or Brixton or Totenham? Go talk to the average person their about current affairs,see what response you get. Most probably wont know who the current PM is and out of those I would say about 50% would try and rob you or "waste you for being on their turf". Again, scum.

[johnhughthom]

It hasn't been proven he fired first, or fired at all.

[HoreTore]

Bah.

The same was said of every working class riot a century ago. Funnily, it stopped once more humane and sustainable(as in creating a smaller income difference) policies were in place.

As always, the obvious solution is more social democracy. Screw the tories.

[tibilicus]

Bah.

The same was said of every working class riot a century ago. Funnily, it stopped once more humane and sustainable(as in creating a smaller income difference) policies were in place.

As always, the obvious solution is more social democracy. Screw the tories.

Go down to Hackey, ask them if they want social democracy. Ask them if they know what it is. Tell me, if they want social democracy, why is one of the main aims looting? Does stealing a 50" plasma tv help social democracy? Is that their anti-establishment message? To ruin their local businesses? Don't insult the working class by associating them with thugs and hoodlums.

[HoreTore]

Go down to Hackey, ask them if they want social democracy. Ask them if they know what it is. Tell me, if they want social democracy, why is one of the main aims looting? Does stealing a 50" plasma tv help social democracy? Is that their anti-establishment message? To ruin their local businesses? Don't insult the working class by associating them with thugs and hoodlums.

I feel like I'm talking to a bourgeoisie from 1890.

[Adrian II]

As always, the obvious solution is more social democracy. Screw the tories.

This is also what the lady in The Telegraph is saying, only slightly more eloquently.


The failure of the markets goes hand in hand with human blight. Meanwhile, the view is gaining ground that social democracy, with its safety nets, its costly education and health care for all, is unsustainable in the bleak times ahead. The reality is that it is the only solution. After the Great Crash, Britain recalibrated, for a time. Income differentials fell, the welfare state was born and skills and growth increased.

That exact model is not replicable, but nor, as Adam Smith recognised, can a well-ordered society ever develop when a sizeable number of its members are miserable and, as a consequence, dangerous. This is not a gospel of determinism, for poverty does not ordain lawlessness. Nor, however, is it sufficient to heap contempt on the rioters as if they are a pariah caste.

AII

[tibilicus]

I feel like I'm talking to a bourgeoisie from 1890.

I feel like i'm talking to someone oblivious to reality. If it's a political revolt, why don't these thugs go and burn down Westminster? It's not far. Instead they loot their shops. You are aware these thugs set fire to a bus before, with people on it? I wonder how many evil Tories were on that bus.

Again, you insult the working class.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'm skeptical of most of these explanations, why do we think that people won't just riot for the sake of rioting? I mean, maybe wealthy people don't feel like leaving their air condition so they don't riot.


I feel like I'm talking to a bourgeoisie from 1890.

They didn't have plasma tv's in 1890, god man where did you learn your history.

[Fragony]

To anyone that tries to play the "socially deprived youth" argument, don't be so ignorant.

The left, as the opportunistic scum they are of course will try and link this with the government but they're way wrong. It's nothing to do with social cuts, the very same scum which burn down their communities live off that same welfare package they're supposedly "revolting" against. These are people which are so excluded from society they CHOOSE to drop out of education. They CHOOSE to loot and they CHOOSE to instigate such behavior after an anti-police protest for a poor innocent hoodlum gunned down brutally by British bobbies. A lot of people have failed to grasp the fact that guy, whose name slips my mind as he is such an irrelevant bit of trash actually fired at the police first. His family apparently want answers, tell them their son was dirt and he deserved what he got.

I personally say let them destroy their communities, if that is their wish. Just set up an exclusion zone and shoot any of the vermin which try and loot outside that exclusion zone. For anyone who calls me out on being too harsh and being incorrect, who suggest their is a political motive, has anyone ever been the Hackney or Brixton or Totenham? Go talk to the average person their about current affairs,see what response you get. Most probably wont know who the current PM is and out of those I would say about 50% would try and rob you or "waste you for being on their turf". Again, scum.

Kinda funny how people can get more harshly than I could ever be

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm skeptical of most of these explanations, why do we think that people won't just riot for the sake of rioting? I mean, maybe wealthy people don't feel like leaving their air condition so they don't riot.



They didn't have plasma tv's in 1890, god man where did you learn your history.

I already said the weather (and no job).

Nobody listened?

[drone]

I'd embed a particular Sublime youtube vid here, but there are a few f-bombs amidst the pertinent social commentary.

[Adrian II]

I'm skeptical of most of these explanations, why do we think that people won't just riot for the sake of rioting?

If that were true, we would see lots of violent riots in all the world's major cities every day, or at least every weekend.

AII

[HoreTore]

If it's a political revolt

Now, where did I say that?

I'm saying the revolt arose out a political situation, not that the goal of the riot itself was political. If I have't already, I'll say that the motivation to riot was frustration. I also agree with Adrians linky-link.

(how could I not agree with someone who quotes Adam Smith in favour of social democratic economic thinking?)

[Fragony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqj1N9qeWXI pretty lol if you ask me. Is multiculture, enjoy the enrichment we can really learn from eachother

[Adrian II]

(how could I not agree with someone who quotes Adam Smith in favour of social democratic economic thinking?)

Adam Smith was one of the most inspiring of social democratic authors.

Smith believed governments should build roads, bridges, and canals, finance public education, fund state hospitals and set up a state-run postal system. He objected to government intervention only in the form of mercantilism. Nor did he admire wealth or entrepreneurship. "Wealth and greatness are often regarded with the respect and admiration which are due only to wisdom and virtue (Theory of the Moral Sentiments, 1756).

AII

[Lemur]

They didn't have plasma tv's in 1890, god man where did you learn your history.
Holy ****, you mean the Victorians only had LCD TVs? What did they do when they wanted a 50 incher? No wonder they were so repressed.

[Adrian II]

Ah, but this is a time to re-read that brilliant social commentator Hans Magnus Enzensberger.


The fighters know very well that there will be no victory. They know that, eventually, they will lose. And yet they do everything in their power to up the stakes. Their aim is to debase everybody--not only their opponents, but also themselves. A French social worker reports from a housing estate in the suburbs of Paris:

``They have destroyed everything: letter-boxes, doors, stairways. The health center, where their younger brothers and sisters receive free medical treatment, has been demolished and looted. They recognize no rules of any sort. They smash doctors' and dentists' surgeries to pieces and tear down their schools. When they are given a new football pitch, they saw down the goalposts.''

This picture of molecular civil war resembles the full-scale event down to the last detail. A reporter tells how he witnessed an armed band smashing up a hospital in Mogadishu. This was no military operation. No one was threatening the men, and no shots had been heard in the city. The hospital was already badly damaged, equipped only with the bare essentials. The perpetrators went about their business with a fierce thoroughness. Beds were slit open, bottles containing blood serum and medicine were shattered. Then the men, in torn and dirty camouflage uniform, set about destroying the few remaining pieces of apparatus. They did not leave until they had made sure that the single X-ray machine, the sterilizer and the oxygen generator were no longer usable. Each one of these zombies knew that there was no end to the war in sight. They all realized that within hours their lives might depend on whether there was a doctor around to patch them up. And still their obvious intent was to eliminate even the smallest chance of survival.

One is tempted to call this the reductio ad insanitatem. In the collective running amok, the concept of "future" disappears. Only the present matters. Consequences do not exist. The instinct for self-preservation, with the restraining influence it brings to bear, is knocked out of action.

From his Civil War (http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/NPQ/molecular-civil-war.html)

[Papewaio]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/london-riots-spread-as-police-lose-control-20110809-1ijmm.html


Social media played an important part in the rapid spread of unrest, police said.

Youths used sites such as Twitter and messaging services on Blackberry handsets to co-ordinate attacks.

Many messages sent using at least one of the services, called Blackberry Messenger, are untraceable by police, unlike conventional SMS, telephone calls or emails.

Blackberry said it would do what it could to help authorities manage the problem, the BBC reported.

Some youths posted photos of damage on Twitter and Facebook.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/london-riots-spread-as-police-lose-control-20110809-1ijmm.html#ixzz1UTgFbZMA


Yeah they seem highly repressed citizens fighting for a better life.

The looters are just oppourtunisitic thugs. I disagree with the idea that they are anymore then unorganised brownshirts. They are all little Robin Hoods who are giving back to themselves.

I don't think the penalty for common theft should be shooting. However when it is organised arson and looting for ones own enjoyment I hope they get the book thrown at them.

The looters are not making a political statement, they might be the end result of political policies... There are plenty more people in those same communities who were peacefully protesting or keeping out of the riots.

Semi-organised crime, using an oppourtunity with technology as a lever. Not oppressed masses heaving under the strain of 14hr working days and a poverty wage.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If that were true, we would see lots of violent riots in all the world's major cities every day, or at least every weekend.

AII

Only if their hockey team has lost or their baseball team has won or some other spark...

[Crazed Rabbit]

If that were true, we would see lots of violent riots in all the world's major cities every day, or at least every weekend.

AII

Welcome to Philadelphia (http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/08/01/nutters-office-condemns-violent-flash-mob-promises-response/);

The latest ‘mob’ cut right through the heart of Center City and now the Mayor is promising changes on how the city handles the problem.

The sudden, random violence of these mobs we’ve seen in the city and Upper Darby make them hard to predict and even harder to prevent.

In all, 59 people were beaten and briefly hospitalized.

I think all it takes is a large crowd of people with the right (or wrong, as it happens) mindset and a spark. Poverty, politics - it doesn't matter. We humans may not be as civilized as we like to think, and mob violence may be just a shift in the mood of a crowd away.

I'm going to blame, in part, the welfare state. How many young people are unemployed and yet given money they have not earned? They have no respect for property because they do nothing to earn theirs.

And I recommend the Koreans-in-LA approach to property defense.

CR

[johnhughthom]

And I recommend the Koreans-in-LA approach to property defense.

CR

There are stories of a group of Turks standing together and warding off a gang of rioters in one area.

[Centurion1]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/london-riots-spread-as-police-lose-control-20110809-1ijmm.html



Yeah they seem highly repressed citizens fighting for a better life.

The looters are just oppourtunisitic thugs. I disagree with the idea that they are anymore then unorganised brownshirts. They are all little Robin Hoods who are giving back to themselves.

I don't think the penalty for common theft should be shooting. However when it is organised arson and looting for ones own enjoyment I hope they get the book thrown at them.

The looters are not making a political statement, they might be the end result of political policies... There are plenty more people in those same communities who were peacefully protesting or keeping out of the riots.

Semi-organised crime, using an oppourtunity with technology as a lever. Not oppressed masses heaving under the strain of 14hr working days and a poverty wage.

Looting is never committed by politically motivated citizens. It is a bunch of thugs who want a free tv.

And about instituting martial law.... I agree it shouldn't be used. However, there can be times of such great danger to the state and its populace that it is necessary

[a completely inoffensive name]

I always figured that most riots begin with citizens who have legitimate reasons for protesting, but once the violence starts by one dude who is just a little bit too angry, then all the anarchists and ******** who riot for the fun of it swoop in and by the end of the day, the whole thing just looks like one big disgusting insult to society, although in all likeliness it probably didn't start with those intentions.

[Centurion1]

I always figured that most riots begin with citizens who have legitimate reasons for protesting, but once the violence starts by one dude who is just a little bit too angry, then all the anarchists and ******** who riot for the fun of it swoop in and by the end of the day, the whole thing just looks like one big disgusting insult to society, although in all likeliness it probably didn't start with those intentions.

What about the massive riots in LA that follow the lakers winning NBA championships?

[ICantSpellDawg]

There is no reason to keep civil society. We all live once, it might as well be short, violent and exciting. I think people around the world are starting to get it - of all colors and creeds. down with authority, up with chaos.


The irony is that, in the Islamic Mediterranean, the rioting is due to the state abusing its people for generations and, just now trying to blackmail them to shutup. In the west, it is in response to the government being suckled bloody by its ravenous citizens, attempting to take a break, recuperate and get back to suckling.

I want to see heads roll in every direction. Like a giant fire hydrant of blood exploding all over the west, the east and everything in between. Liberals, Conservatives, Moderates, blowing up their local deli because it doesn't carry the right kind of pastrami, or because their bacon is never as crisp as you know you need it to be. Muslims raping and pillaging their local mosque because one of the women lifted her veil. Christians tearing open the bellies of the people who they believe ate all of their gold. Read the book of revelation on mushrooms, hanging from your pull-up bar if you want to see the world to come.

[Greyblades]

Yeah well if you jump dont expect everyone to follow you off that cliff. In my opinion anyone who harms, or even takes others with him, while "going out with a bang" is an utter waste of a good life.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Ehhhh. This stuff is as interesting as he'll. I've never been as excited about the future as I have been over the past 3 years.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What about the massive riots in LA that follow the lakers winning NBA championships?

No different. Bunch of drunk people celebrating the Lakers winning then one person throws a beer bottle at the guy wearing the Celtics jersey and suddenly you got a bunch of dudes coming out of their house snowballing the situation. Notice how when the cops are there in force directing the crowd as they leave the Staples center, nothing really happens much. The crowd doesn't just run out of the stadium as soon as the game is over and starts setting fires, throwing rocks at cops. These things are agitated or fed by outsiders.

[a completely inoffensive name]

There is no reason to keep civil society. We all live once, it might as well be short, violent and exciting. I think people around the world are starting to get it - of all colors and creeds. down with authority, up with chaos.


The irony is that, in the Islamic Mediterranean, the rioting is due to the state abusing its people for generations and, just now trying to blackmail them to shutup. In the west, it is in response to the government being suckled bloody by its ravenous citizens, attempting to take a break, recuperate and get back to suckling.

I want to see heads roll in every direction. Like a giant fire hydrant of blood exploding all over the west, the east and everything in between. Liberals, Conservatives, Moderates, blowing up their local deli because it doesn't carry the right kind of pastrami, or because their bacon is never as crisp as you know you need it to be. Muslims raping and pillaging their local mosque because one of the women lifted her veil. Christians tearing open the bellies of the people who they believe ate all of their gold. Read the book of revelation on mushrooms, hanging from your pull-up bar if you want to see the world to come.

Cancer.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I love when you do that

[a completely inoffensive name]

I love when you do that

No doubt.

[Strike For The South]

We all live once, it might as well be short, violent and exciting.

Is this what the Org has become? Thinly veilied plagerism of one of the most widley read works of political philosiphy?


The rest of your post is stereotypical nhilism, like a college freshman after he reads fight club. Chaos runs contrary to progress and while curroption runs part and parcel with government, anarchy is simple stagnintation. So after chaos ensues and the system breaks, what then?

[Fragony]

There is no reason to keep civil society. We all live once, it might as well be short, violent and exciting. I think people around the world are starting to get it - of all colors and creeds. down with authority, up with chaos.


The irony is that, in the Islamic Mediterranean, the rioting is due to the state abusing its people for generations and, just now trying to blackmail them to shutup. In the west, it is in response to the government being suckled bloody by its ravenous citizens, attempting to take a break, recuperate and get back to suckling.

I want to see heads roll in every direction. Like a giant fire hydrant of blood exploding all over the west, the east and everything in between. Liberals, Conservatives, Moderates, blowing up their local deli because it doesn't carry the right kind of pastrami, or because their bacon is never as crisp as you know you need it to be. Muslims raping and pillaging their local mosque because one of the women lifted her veil. Christians tearing open the bellies of the people who they believe ate all of their gold. Read the book of revelation on mushrooms, hanging from your pull-up bar if you want to see the world to come.

At least you are ready for it, http://www.lewrockwell.com/celente/celente59.1.html

[Strike For The South]

This is insanity, all of you rocking the boat have become to jadded with the stability your country provides

[ICantSpellDawg]

Why does there need to be anything after that? I'm just kidding. I work 9 to 5 in an office job, 6 days a week. I seek balance in my life and go to weekly mass to make myself a more peaceful person. Im getting married and im a really stable and nice guy. I play this forum like I play a video game. I get a kick out of pissing you guys off. Stereotypical nihilism is just a hobby of mine. You know, keep the human race in existence because God told us to and all that. Why not?

[Strike For The South]

Why does there need to be anything after that? I'm just kidding. I work 9 to 5 in an office job, 6 days a week. I seek balance in my life and go to weekly mass to make myself a more peaceful person. Im getting married and im a really stable and nice guy. I play this forum like I play a video game. I get a kick out of pissing you guys off. Stereotypical nihilism is just a hobby of mine

*grumbles*

[ICantSpellDawg]

*grumbles* You take things too seriously. Enjoy the ride. We spend our time arguing about the world on a video war game forum. You've got some repressed maniac in you. A piece of the beast wriggling around in there.

[a completely inoffensive name]

At least you are ready for it, http://www.lewrockwell.com/celente/celente59.1.html

6. Alternative Energy In laboratories and workshops unnoticed by mainstream analysts, scientific visionaries and entrepreneurs are forging a new physics incorporating principles once thought impossible, working to create devices that liberate more energy than they consume. What are they, and how long will it be before they can be brought to market? Shrewd investors will ignore the "can’t be done" skepticism, and examine the newly emerging energy trend opportunities that will come of age in 2011….
Pretty sure this guy has no idea what he is talking about because if I am not mistaken, the underlined blatantly breaks the first law of thermodynamics (or is it the second, I forget) and is impossible.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why does there need to be anything after that? I'm just kidding. I work 9 to 5 in an office job, 6 days a week. I seek balance in my life and go to weekly mass to make myself a more peaceful person. Im getting married and im a really stable and nice guy. I play this forum like I play a video game. I get a kick out of pissing you guys off. Stereotypical nihilism is just a hobby of mine. You know, keep the human race in existence because God told us to and all that. Why not?

If I thought you were serious, I would have written a big angry piece, instead of just my one word. I was wondering what your reaction was going to be when I kept briefly dismissing that nihilistic trolling.

[Noncommunist]

And twice as much English. Not supposed to mention that though, plastic paddies the lot of you. :creep:

I think German-American is the largest then followed by Irish-Americans. While we had a lot of English Americans initially settling, I'm pretty sure they dropped off after the revolution leaving mostly the Irish to emigrate.

[Papewaio]

Liberate...

Well burning coal, heating water and then turning turbines to create electricity liberates more energy then it takes to dig up coal. Otherwise you'd just use another fuel.

What you can't do in the same sequence is have the turbines create electricity to heat the water and turn the turbines to create an energy surplus.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Liberate...

Well burning coal, heating water and then turning turbines to create electricity liberates more energy then it takes to dig up coal. Otherwise you'd just use another fuel.

What you can't do in the same sequence is have the turbines create electricity to heat the water and turn the turbines to create an energy surplus.

When he says "devices" I am interpreting it as him saying your last sentence. Essentially a "device" that is generating more energy then it is consuming is somehow able to create energy out of nothing, a perpetual motion device.

[Fragony]

Listen to grandma http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1645381/3873f922/epic_rant.html :stare:

[InsaneApache]

Thas nowt political about it. Despite what the loony left might wish for.

Common or garden thugs and footpads helping themselves to iPhones and somesuchlike.

If the revolution comes chummies it wont be like this.

[Fragony]

Thas nowt political about it. Despite what the loony left might wish for.

Common or garden thugs and footpads helping themselves to iPhones and somesuchlike.

If the revolution comes chummies it wont be like this.

heh it's a shame they are burning their own neighbourhoods, they should head to the 99% white (every soap has a black) neighbourhoods to rub 'diversity into the noses of the left, rendering their arguments out of date'

I'm quite enjoying all this, England gets what it deserves for being political correct. This won't happen in the Netherlands, we battered them so badly that they now enjoy it and batter us back. Nothing like a healthy sense of humour.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Been reading some comments on reddit from people living in London:

"Reports that Asian butchers on Green Street East came out earlier with their knives and chased off rioters. Typical bloody immigrants, taking police jobs."

"On twitter: #LondonRiots 400 young Asian lads chased away 150 rioters from green street, east L! No police, community looking after area.well done boys!

Not exaggerated"

Sounds to me like you guys need some more multiculturalism. Get those immigrants in there to ward off all the mobs of white kids who want free stuff.

[Strike For The South]

No that's not how it works

Immigrants destroy the fabric of society, have been forever

[Centurion1]

No that's not how it works

Immigrants destroy the fabric of society, have been forever

Only the brown ones though right Strike?

[Strike For The South]

Only the brown ones though right Strike?

They seem to be the flavor of the month, granted one should never discount the Irish or the Jews in a "things are going badly, we need a scapegoat, who talks funny/wears silly clothes/ prays to the wrong god" horse race

[Fragony]

Get those immigrants in there to ward off all the mobs of white kids who want free stuff.

If white kids means labour politicians I almost agree

[a completely inoffensive name]

If white kids means labour politicians I almost agree

I would hope any reasonable person would want the BNP politicians driven out first....

[Fragony]

I would hope any reasonable person would want the BNP politicians driven out first....

BNP are scum, good idea. But it is because of labour that it's Sierra Leondon atm

[a completely inoffensive name]

But it is because of labour that it's Sierra Leondon atm

I will let the British in this forum decide that since I don't live there.

[Fragony]

I will let the British in this forum decide that since I don't live there.

It kinda is this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

[PanzerJaeger]

RETREAT!! :laugh4:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xotFXwkArus&feature=player_embedded

[a completely inoffensive name]

It kinda is this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Hmm, I am still too ignorant about British affairs to make my mind up on the matter.

[Tsavong]

It seems that groups of people found out of there is enough of them they can just roam around stealing things from shops and setting whats left on fire. They don't seem to have a objective other than be violent and loot.

[Furunculus]

I would hope any reasonable person would want the BNP politicians driven out first....

we don't have any.

[Centurion1]

RETREAT!! :laugh4:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xotFXwkArus&feature=player_embedded

actually a fascinating and depressing look into mob psychology. they scented weakness (or thought they did, the cops would still make them their female dogs) and swarmed. I say rubber bullets and tear gas for everyone. That should keep the chavs at home.

[a completely inoffensive name]

we don't have any.

I don't understand. There is no support for BNP in London?

[Tsavong]

It kinda is this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
That article is old from 2009 and I would not be surprised if most people involved in the violence were born here (the UK).

[a completely inoffensive name]

Btw, I am hearing from the comment pages of the commons that the police are more timid than they usually are because of all the bad press they got during the G20 summit and the student riots. Is there any evidence for this?

[Centurion1]

I don't understand. There is no support for BNP in London?

Reasonable people is what he likely said in his mind with an upper crust british accent before taking a sip of tea and nibbling on a crumpet.

Then he asked God (who is an Englishmen of course) why he rid England of the joy of Empire.

Then he tottered off to a fox hunt

[a completely inoffensive name]

Reasonable people is what he likely said in his mind with an upper crust british accent before taking a sip of tea and nibbling on a crumpet.

Then he asked God (who is an Englishmen of course) why he rid England of the joy of Empire.

Then he tottered off to a fox hunt


Oooooooh. Ok then. Lol, this post made my night.

[Adrian II]

It seems that groups of people found out of there is enough of them they can just roam around stealing things from shops and setting whats left on fire. They don't seem to have a objective other than be violent and loot.

Quite (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137238-London-riots&p=2053356130&viewfull=1#post2053356130).

People have to be socialised in order to suppress these tendencies in them. Socialised not just by their parents, but by society as a whole. It's too late for these looters anyway. I guess what we're seeing is a return of nineteenth century mob violence (http://www.victorianlondon.org/crime1/riots.htm). People feel worthless and it shows in the way they destroy everything of value, including the fabric of their own neighbourhood. It's selfdestruction, as Enzensberger says.

AII

[Tsavong]

Yep self-destruction and violence and I guess they are counting that someone cleans up after them so when they stop they have somewhere to live.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Question: If a looter steals 5,000 pounds in cash from various stores and reports it on his tax forms, will he get in trouble?

Philosophical follow up: If he is willing to pay income tax on the money he has stolen does this make the act less reprehensible, even by a little?

[Centurion1]

Question: If a looter steals 5,000 pounds in cash from various stores and reports it on his tax forms, will he get in trouble?

Philosophical follow up: If he is willing to pay income tax on the money he has stolen does this make the act less reprehensible, even by a little?

A. Yes it is a crime. If I report 50 dollars from that ho I beat up on Canal street I am going to be in quite a bit of trouble.

B. No it does not. Not even slightly. If anything it makes it worse because you now know a complete imbecile managed to steal 5,000 pounds and get away with it.

[Adrian II]

Question: If a looter steals 5,000 pounds in cash from various stores and reports it on his tax forms, will he get in trouble?

I guess not. Our bankers do that sort of thing all the time, don't they?

Philosophical follow-up: if one of these looters spends his loot unwisely and goes bankrupt, will he be bailed out by the government?

AII

[a completely inoffensive name]

I guess not. Our bankers do that sort of thing all the time, don't they?

Philosophical follow-up: if one of these looters spends his loot unwisely and goes bankrupt, will he be bailed out by the government?

AII

There's the zing I was going for!

[HoreTore]

Steal a thousand, and you're a thief.

Steal a million, and you're a shrewd business man.

[Fragony]

Philosophical follow-up: if one of these looters spends his loot unwisely and goes bankrupt, will he be bailed out by the government?

AII

Every month, usually the 26th

[naut]

Kinda funny how people can get more harshly than I could ever be
Yep. There is a big difference between a tough, but fair reaction and an outright vindictive reaction.

[Adrian II]

Every month, usually the 26th

You didn't get the point.

Will he be compensated for the loss of his loot?

AII

[Centurion1]

You didn't get the point.

Will he be compensated for the loss of his loot?

AII

This is all a flawed premise assuming his loot is declared legal by the government. Which it will not. It will be seized and e will no longer have to pay for rent or food. Because he will be arrested for grand larceny.

[PanzerJaeger]

Here's a question for those closer to the situation. Are the rioters making an effort to destroy the CCTV cameras or are they relying on their face masks and/or not caring?

[Fragony]

You didn't get the point.

Will he be compensated for the loss of his loot?

AII

He will be bailed out so he can get some more if we got to make a parallel with banks

[a completely inoffensive name]

Here's a question for those closer to the situation. Are the rioters making an effort to destroy the CCTV cameras or are they relying on their face masks and/or not caring?

Perhaps they are relying on the anonymity of the one in the many?

[Centurion1]

Here's a question for those closer to the situation. Are the rioters making an effort to destroy the CCTV cameras or are they relying on their face masks and/or not caring?

Far too stupid and unorganized for that.

Plus when people are in a mob state they don't think about things like that. Mobs don't think they can be blamed for anything because of the group nature of the act.

They underestimate the police going through as many tapes as possible and collaring as many of these chavvy fellows and shipping them off to Australia (that is where British criminals go right?).

Edit: dammit acin.

[Boohugh]

Here's a question for those closer to the situation. Are the rioters making an effort to destroy the CCTV cameras or are they relying on their face masks and/or not caring?

Listening on BBC news today there are some rioters who aren't even bothering to cover their faces so the police are just going round arresting them all this morning from the CCTV images! There are so many CCTV cameras around London it would be impossible to destroy or even find all the ones on any given high street so even if the rioters do destroy one or two they'll still be seen on half a dozen others.

[econ21]

RETREAT!! :laugh4:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xotFXwkArus&feature=player_embedded

I don't see anything in that video that warrants a laughing smilie. It terrified me. Those eight policemen were in real danger. These riots now eclipse the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985, where one policeman in a similar situation stumbled and was then killed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Keith_Blakelock

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don't see anything in that video that warrants a laughing smilie. It terrified me. Those eight policemen were in real danger. These riots now eclipse the Brixton riots of 1985, where one policeman in a similar situation stumbled and was then killed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Keith_Blakelock

DEVILS ADVOCATE: And what is the difference if the policemen were in charge of the situation? G20 showed that police brutality will lead to civilian deaths.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/g20-summit/5127113/G20-protest-police-victim-was-hit-by-police-officers-in-three-separate-incidents.html

(disclaimer: this is from the point of view of someone in favor of the riots, not my own opinion)

[Fragony]

Holland-England cancelled, is there anything you brits won't do to avoid certain defeat, even if it is friendly

[Centurion1]

DEVILS ADVOCATE: And what is the difference if the policemen were in charge of the situation? G20 showed that police brutality will lead to civilian deaths.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/g20-summit/5127113/G20-protest-police-victim-was-hit-by-police-officers-in-three-separate-incidents.html

(disclaimer: this is from the point of view of someone in favor of the riots, not my own opinion)

eh I don't give a damn. You wanna loot and burn and riot? You do so at risk of your own life. If troops or police went out and enforced martial law then this would all likely be over soon. And do not say that this is treading on their rights to protest. Because they are not protesting. You cannot be allowed to riot in the name of some protest. You cannot loot and flip cars and commit arson in the name of protest. You are a criminal and you should be happy that live ammunition is not used.

That harsh statement being said I think once this all dies down we will see a very gleeful police force watching all the cctv footage they can and arresting as many people as possible while they flip them off for being idiots.

[Boohugh]

Holland-England cancelled, is there anything you brits won't do to avoid certain defeat, even if it is friendly

Ah, they're on to us, quick - hide! :creep:

[a completely inoffensive name]

eh I don't give a damn. You wanna loot and burn and riot? You do so at risk of your own life. If troops or police went out and enforced martial law then this would all likely be over soon. And do not say that this is treading on their rights to protest. Because they are not protesting. You cannot be allowed to riot in the name of some protest. You cannot loot and flip cars and commit arson in the name of protest. You are a criminal and you should be happy that live ammunition is not used.

That harsh statement being said I think once this all dies down we will see a very gleeful police force watching all the cctv footage they can and arresting as many people as possible while they flip them off for being idiots.

Gahhhhhhh, I was going for a reaction from econ21 or one of the other Brits in here. Why did you have to destroy this crappy argument so quickly?

[Adrian II]

eh I don't give a damn. You wanna loot and burn and riot? You do so at risk of your own life. If troops or police went out and enforced martial law then this would all likely be over soon.

Yeah, and a lot of innocents woud be killed too. People protesting the looting, people trying to defend their shops, trying to get their kids off the streets or whatever. Simplistic 'solutions' such as yours only make things worse.

AII

[Centurion1]

Yeah, and a lot of innocents woud be killed too. People protesting the looting, people trying to defend their shops, trying to get their kids off the streets or whatever. Simplistic 'solutions' such as yours only make things worse.

AII

What world do you live in? In my world people don't go out during riots and protest those rioters. And if people did do that then there would be a lot more dead and injured right now in Britain. People defending their shops are at risk from the police actively fighting looters more than the looters themselves? My simplistic solution would clear the streets in under 5 hours and would result in far less property damage and loss of life. You make it sound like I am suggesting we put SWAT snipers on the roofs of every building, drive tanks through the streets, use live rounds, and threaten to drop a daisy cutter if they don't put down that plasma screen TV.

Non lethal methods are renowned for being non lethal in most circles.

[a completely inoffensive name]

More vids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oknjNw1elTo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqj1N9qeWXI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXcI-NL3Tro

[econ21]

There are stories of a group of Turks standing together and warding off a gang of rioters in one area.

Sounds like what this video shows:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/09/london-riots-london

Good on them, although it would obviously be better if the police could be there to do the job for them (as they themselves request). However, the rioters/looters are using decoy fires, Blackberry messenger networks and hit and run tactics to evade the police, striking at areas all over London. Last night was the worst so far, spreading to five or more other cities (Birmingham, Bristol, Nottingham, Leeds and Liverpool) with copycat disturbances.

[a completely inoffensive name]

LONDON -- As political and social protests grip the Middle East, are growing in Europe and a riot exploded in north London this weekend (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44049721/ns/world_news-europe/t/cops-hurt-dozens-arrested-after-riot-tottenham-area-london/), here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?
"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

[Adrian II]

What world do you live in? In my world people don't go out during riots and protest those rioters.

That's what I'm saying, you have no idea of the real world. All this sabre-rattling about martial law is irrelevant. I suppose the military could and should be clled on in the preent situation, but not under martial law conditions including suspension of habeas corpus and shooting on sight and such. That's just plain idiocy.

AII

[Strike For The South]

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

The sad truth is someone allowed that to make it to print

fools

[Fragony]

That's what I'm saying, you have no idea of the real world. All this sabre-rattling about martial law is irrelevant. I suppose the military could and should be clled on in the preent situation, but not under martial law conditions including suspension of habeas corpus and shooting on sight and such. That's just plain idiocy.

AII

He's pretty clear about using non-lethal violence

[Papewaio]

I don't see anything in that video that warrants a laughing smilie. It terrified me. Those eight policemen were in real danger. These riots now eclipse the Brixton riots of 1985, where one policeman in a similar situation stumbled and was then killed:


They kept their formation better then most of my TW units. Look how they are in a W formation with pairs of large shields in the front and two lighter ones ready to skirmish in and out or assist. Look how uniformly they retreat. There is also a line of bright green-yellow cops not in riot gear covering the deep rear (just waiting for the cav to mount a surprise side charge).

The rioters have numbers. But get enough cops with that discipine to fill the street in ranks of three and that would have been a scene from Spartacus with the cops marching right over them.

Stiff upper lip seems to still be in force.

[InsaneApache]

A surprisingly good post from Labour Uncut...


Not today. Please, just not today. Laurie Penny, I think you are a beautiful and gifted writer. But don’t tell me violence cannot be mindless. Or that it is all about catharsis. Not today.

Sunny Hundal, your real and passionate desire to break politics free from its straight jacket of committees and speeches and selection meetings does you credit. But please, don’t circulate any more time lapse photography of people’s homes burning and tell me it’s “brilliant” or that it’s “art’. Not today.

Owen Jones, the working class need a voice, and you are an articulate spokesman. But please, no more hand wringing about the dangers of an “authoritarian backlash” against those who tried to loot and burn our city to the ground. Not today.

Ken Livingstone, you were once a great and radical figure. But no one needs to hear your cheap politicking about your statesmanlike dash from the Olympic awards ceremony. Or your back of the envelope theories about how 14 and 15 ear old rioters trashed JD sports because they are not able to provide for their wives and children. Not today.

Boris Johnson, I’d actually liked to have heard something from you. But instead I had to put up with your spokesman Kit Milhouse explaining why it was fit and proper for the Mayor of the world’s greatest capital city to watch from afar as his charge exploded in an orgy of destruction. We’ll no doubt hear the same excuses trotted out often this election year. If we must. But not today.

Theresa May, I understand being the only senior member of the government, (Nick Clegg hardly counts in these circumstances), is tough. But I don’t want to hear any more rubbish about “policing with consent” when that consent has been brutally withdrawn by a small but violent minority. And I’d park the protestations that cutting thousands of police officers won’t have had any operational impact. For today.

David Cameron, I don’t actually blame you for taking a much needed break in Tuscany. And it was nice you made friends with your waitress. But as you sit savouring the taste of your Tuscan Dream please, do one thing for me. For all of us. Don’t tell us we’re all in this together. We are, of course. But we don’t need to hear it from you. Not today.

There is lot we do need to hear. And lots that needs to be said. About the dislocation of inner-city youth. About the link between crime and poverty. About race and resentment. About lack of employment and educational opportunities. The widening gap between the rich and poor. The politics and the sociology and the criminology. All deserve, indeed require, an airing.

We must debate, and examine, and interrogate. We must argue and enquire and report. We must ask ourselves what sort of society we really want to be, and take a deep look within our own communities, and souls.

We must do all of these things. Just not today.

Dan Hodges is contributing editor of Labour Uncut.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2011/08/09/not-today/

[econ21]

Stiff upper lip seems to still be in force.

I have nothing but respect for the police so far. They seem to be in an almost impossible position, acting with skill and self-control. This is an interesting article and accompanying video about how the looters organise a hit and run attack on a jewellers in Enfield.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-mood-calmer-premeditated?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

What shocks me is the sheer number of young people on the street. "Recreational looting" is what Dianne Abbott termed it this morning.

The video below makes me almost physically sick - rioters appearing to help an injured boy up and then robbing him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo

I don't know the full story behind it - who was the boy? Was he innocent or a looter looted? But the inhumanity is shocking.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The video below makes me almost physically sick - rioters appearing to help an injured boy up and then robbing him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo

I don't know the full story behind it - who was the boy? Was he innocent or a looter looted? But the inhumanity is shocking.

Looks like the video I posted above. I got so angry the first time I watched it.

[econ21]

If the previous video showed people at there worst, the following raised my spirit. [EDIT: this was also the third video linked by ACIN above.] An off duty Sky News reporter, Mark Stone, using his i-phone to video and walking among looters asking if they are proud of what they are doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXcI-NL3Tro

He later was chased by looters. The man is my hero.

The other thing - apart from his insane bravery - to raise a dry smile was his comment about Waterstone's, the bookshop, not having been targeted. If the looters had been interested in reading, they would not have been looters.

[classical_hero]

Holland-England cancelled, is there anything you brits won't do to avoid certain defeat, even if it is friendlyIf these riots affect the EPL, then I say haul all of the off to prison.

[Fragony]

Go Turks http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/09/london-riots-london

[PanzerJaeger]

So what are the ROE's here? Obviously not deadly force, but can they actually use their billy clubs or are they just for intimidation/self defense? I also haven't seen any use of non lethal weaponry in the videos I've seen - may just be an anomoly, though.

[Vladimir]

Maybe they were bored? We had the "slut walk" march here at Helsinki last weekend, which kind of stole the attention of many.:2thumbsup:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Thousands+gather+for+SlutWalk+marches+in+three+Finnish+cities/1135268360318

Slut sisu.


So what are the ROE's here? Obviously not deadly force, but can they actually use their billy clubs or are they just for intimidation/self defense? I also haven't seen any use of non lethal weaponry in the videos I've seen - may just be an anomoly, though.

They can blow REALLY loud on their whistles and use profanity. Extreme measures indeed. :yes:

[Furunculus]

good article from the kings of war:

http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2011/08/the-london-riots-a-time-for-%E2%80%98big-society%E2%80%99/

[PanzerJaeger]

http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

[Furunculus]

comon panzer, some kind of heading or explanation of the link would be nice........... :)

[PanzerJaeger]

comon panzer, some kind of heading or explanation of the link would be nice........... :)

Sorry, I thought I put it in video tags... or maybe it doesn't accept twitter videos. It's a somewhat heartening video of a woman amongst the looters lecturing them on the unseemliness of their ways. Pulled it from the comments section of your above article, by the way. ~:)

[HoreTore]

Why can't every englishman have that accent?

[Adrian II]

good article from the kings of war:

http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2011/08/the-london-riots-a-time-for-%E2%80%98big-society%E2%80%99/

I like this one (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenham-metropolitan-police-london) from The Guardian better.

AII

[Kagemusha]

These rioter/ looters need their faces kicked in. If the majority would have balls like the Turkish shop owners, this would not be happening.

[Greyblades]

All this ruckus going down in old london town and yet here in essex, the birth place of the chav, it's as quiet as the grave. I belive this is an apropriate situation to call ironic, no?

[Furunculus]

I like this one (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenham-metropolitan-police-london) from The Guardian better.

AII

that was a good article from the guardian. cheers.

[Adrian II]

All this ruckus going down in old london town and yet here in essex, the birth place of the chav, it's as quiet as the grave. I belive this is an apropriate situation to call ironic, no?

G'won, whip out your burberry then :laugh4:

AII

[naut]

Time to call in Gene Hunt?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iSeKUrnsg

[Fragony]

These rioter/ looters need their faces kicked in. If the majority would have balls like the Turkish shop owners, this would not be happening.

If the English police is anything like the Dutch one, if they had the same cojones they would be arrested on the spot. They don't look like Turks by the way, I think they are Pakistani's

[drone]

Sound like the Turks are London's Koreans. Good for them.

[Vladimir]

Time to call in Gene Hunt?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iSeKUrnsg

I liked this show. Harry Wolf. I like that name.

Wait, is that Master? He's going to kill us all

[Major Robert Dump]

Just a question:

In the area where the lotting started and spread to, are the shop owners and employees locals or are they from other nieghborhoods?

I always get a kick out of people fighting the man by destroying their own neighborhoods and stealing from their neighbors to "get their taxes back" that they probably never paid in the first place. If you want to steal your txes back, go loot a government office, not Joes Liquor.

[tibilicus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Here is the face of the riots.

[Furunculus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Here is the face of the riots.

lol, chippy peasants!

[econ21]

In the area where the lotting started and spread to, are the shop owners and employees locals or are they from other nieghborhoods?

My impression is that when it first started, it was locals robbing their own area (Tottenham). However, when people saw they could loot for several hours unimpeded, it spread and when it spread, many different areas were targeted. Some areas were fairly affluent (e.g. Ealing) so I doubt the looters were local. In Birmingham and Nottingham, there were attacks on city centre shops which are essentially in non-residential areas (the Bullring and Victoria centre respectively). I think that is why it has been hard to police - if it were very localised, the police could swamp the area. But whenever the police went in force to one area, looters struck others left unpoliced.

[Vladimir]

lol, chippy peasants!

"Bot-l"

Why you tottering fensuch dewberry... Stay here while I go find something to strike you with!

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm reminded of one of my favorite movie clips, at 00:30 seconds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcbIV3btTpw

[Adrian II]

And we're back at the game in London and Birmingham tonight.

Is this ever going to stop? Hopefully before the Olympics.. :rolleyes:

AII

[classical_hero]

It does not look good for the Olympics, since if they cannot control these people, how are they going to control a much larger group?

EDIT. Talk about a cross post.

[Ronin]

And we're back at the game in London and Birmingham tonight.

Is this ever going to stop? Hopefully before the Olympics.. :rolleyes:

AII

the only positive thing that might come out of this is that it should make the Olympics much more interesting

[Adrian II]

the only positive thing that might come out of this is that it should make the Olympics much more interesting

The riots would make for nice breaks in between utter boredom tennis matches and the mind-boggling stupidity 100 mtr hurdles.

AII

[Kagemusha]

I bet tonight the rioters will be getting what they have been bargaining for the previous nights,atleast at London.

[Ronin]

arms race....amazon style.

Sales of baseball bats, billy clubs, up 5000% on Amazon.uk (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/baseball-bat-billy-club-sales-uk-amazon_n_922217.html)

[Fisherking]

Obviously the police can’t handle it.

It is time for a major escalation.

Send Prince Charles down to have a word with them, that should make everyone happy. At least about the secession. :laugh4:

[Adrian II]

On the BBC they just had a guy who was present today in the Magistrate's Court when the first offenders were seen, and he said that quite a few of them had proper jobs or pursuits, such as graphic designer, student or (you wouldn't believe it) youth worker.

This dovetails with what is know about other modern riots in the western hemisphere, such as footbal hooliganism. The perps are often normal citizens with good jobs, fathers of young children, etcetera.

It's a funny old world.

AII

[HoreTore]

The riots would make for nice breaks in between utter boredom tennis matches and the mind-boggling stupidity 100 mtr hurdles.

AII

Nerd alert!

Sports is all there is, Adrian, you should know this. On that note, if the Premier League is postponed this weekend, I'll join the holocaust-advocates.

[Skullheadhq]

Obviously the police can’t handle it.

It is time for a major escalation.

Send Prince Charles down to have a word with them, that should make everyone happy. At least about the secession. :laugh4:

They would stab Charles to death to take his watch.

[Adrian II]

Nerd alert!

Sports is all there is, Adrian, you should know this. On that note, if the Premier League is postponed this weekend, I'll join the holocaust-advocates.

Sports are great, my friend. I have always engaged in them; rowing, hockey, ice-hockey, baseball, rugby most of all.

But watching sports is dumb. :sleepy:

AII

[Centurion1]

He's pretty clear about using non-lethal violence

Eh some people love to selectively read what you post and gloss over everything that dosn't allow them to see what they want to see. Nothing you can do when you shove someone's head in the :daisy: and all they smell is roses.

[HoreTore]

Sports are great, my friend. I have always engaged in them; rowing, hockey, ice-hockey, baseball, rugby most of all.

But watching sports is dumb. :sleepy:

AII

Bah!

Much better to watch people who are actually good at it do it, while you sit and enjoy a nice, cold beer... Or sing your lungs out on a stadium, of course.

[Adrian II]

From The Guardian:


When the rioters came to attack the premises of Kurdish and Turkish businesses in Hackney's Stoke Newington High Street and Kingsland Road on Monday night, the owners were waiting for them.

"It was between about nine and 10 at night," said Yilmaz Karagoz, sitting in his coffee shop next to a jeweller's shop that has been shuttered since Sunday when the rioting began and a pharmacy that closed a day after.

"There were a lot of them. We came out of our shops but the police asked us to do nothing. But the police did not do anything so as more came we chased them off ourselves." The staff from a local kebab restaurant ran at the attackers, doner knives in their hands.

"I don't think they will be coming back," Karagoz said.

:laugh4: :viking:

AII

P.S. What happened to the döner smiley??

[Tsavong]

Obviously the police can’t handle it.

It is time for a major escalation.
They say there will be 16,000 police officers in London tonight there was 6,000 yesterday if the news is correct so hopefully that will help.

Oh and if they post pictures of them and there loot on say Facebook that should help track them down too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023667/London-riots-Looter-posts-photo-booty-Facebook.html

[Vladimir]

arms race....amazon style.

Sales of baseball bats, billy clubs, up 5000% on Amazon.uk (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/baseball-bat-billy-club-sales-uk-amazon_n_922217.html)

Oh yea:

https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1227/shaunofthedeadtrion.jpg (https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/shaunofthedeadtrion.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

[Fragony]

Oh yea:

https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1227/shaunofthedeadtrion.jpg (https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/shaunofthedeadtrion.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

Yes. Time for a little fun

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

[Vladimir]

Yes. Time for a little fun

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

Reposted to Facebook.

[Vladimir]

Just got a message on BBCA to go to BBC.com to check up on the rights.

Thanks. My small American brain couldn't figure that out.

[Papewaio]

Shaun of the Dead (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365748/) is a pretty funny movie. But in this situation I think they need Hot Fuzz (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425112/)

=][=

Rioters vs Zombies

Rioters want;
tvs, watchs, mobile phones and cash to fill the void in their meaningless lives.

Zombies aspire to better things;
They want brains, locally produced food, a classless society as all are welcome, no animal products, tested on humans only and slow food as the fast food keeps getting away.

I for one prefer the Zombies to the mindless rioters. One has good taste the other prefers burberry.

[InsaneApache]

Obviously the police can’t handle it.

Mate I have to tell you, until about 30 years ago there was what the politicos call 'policing with consent'. West Yorkshire in 1980 was about 5 million.

The Police Force?

About 32, 000.

[Centurion1]

Mate I have to tell you, until about 30 years ago there was what the politicos call 'policing with consent'. West Yorkshire in 1980 was about 5 million.

The Police Force?

About 32, 000.

What are you saying?

there are 34,500 police officers in NYC. The population is 19 million. And while the NYC obviously has some bad crime and crime of a different sort from Britain. But I don't remember off the top of my head any riots this bad in contemporary times. LA has more like what is going on now. LA has about 9500 officers and 9 million residents.

[econ21]

there are 34,500 police officers in NYC. The population is 19 million.

Wikipedia puts the population covered by the NYPD at 8 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Police_Department

It also gives very comparable numbers (for police and population) for the London metropolitan police.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Service

Remember, the metropolitan police has an element of a national police force too (e.g. it handles anti-terrorism, Murdoch newspaper scandals etc).


But I don't remember off the top of my head any riots this bad in contemporary times.

I know - we Brits don't remember anything like this in living memory either. There were nasty riots in the 1980s but they were more localised and had more of a sense of grievance. What is new in the last four days is that the rioting is all over London and major cities, and that it is more larcenous than angry (more looting than rioting).

[Centurion1]

Wikipedia puts the population covered by the NYPD at 8 million. It also gives very comparable numbers (for police and population) for the London metropolitan police. Remember, the metropolitan police has an element of a national police force too (e.g. it handles anti-terrorism, Murdoch newspaper scandals etc).



I know - we Brits don't remember anything like this in living memory either. There were nasty riots in the 1980s but they were more localised and had more of a sense of grievance. What is new in the last four days is that the rioting is all over London and major cities, and that it is more larcenous than angry (more looting than rioting).

I don't know if I was disagreeing with apache I was just giving him some numbers in comparison.


I know - we Brits don't remember anything like this in living memory either. There were nasty riots in the 1980s but they were more localised and had more of a sense of grievance. What is new in the last four days is that the rioting is all over London and major cities, and that it is more larcenous than angry (more looting than rioting).

The only thing I can compare this to in the Us off the top of my head is the Race riots in the Us after the police brutality against watts or maybe some of the the worse riots in Miami by the poor mostly hispanic population (cannot remember the reason). At least that had a purpose though, racial tension....... what precisely the purpose of these chavs is....... anyone's guess.

[Vladimir]

Remember, the metropolitan police has an element of a national police force too (e.g. it handles anti-terrorism, Murdoch newspaper scandals etc).

Wait. I'm sorry. Are you saying the NYPD doesn't handle terrorism and national security?

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's just recreational rioting, allowed by a mix of bad parenting and social networking sites.

Don't hate me for saying it. It's commonly accepted that this is behind a lot of rioting in Belfast these days, I'm not surprised the same is going down elsewhere. Happened here in Scotland as well with that youth riot at Kelvingrove Park during the royal wedding.

[Papewaio]

Wait. I'm sorry. Are you saying the NYPD doesn't handle terrorism and national security?

No he's saying that with Scotland Yard they are part city police force and FBI and national counter-terrorism. They also have a few in/famous unit(s) that are essentially SAS in police uniform.

[Centurion1]

The one thing that really made my blood boil this thread was someone said how they were using their blackberry networks to communicate. How poor and downtrodden can you be with a smartphone. It's absurd. I hate how people whine and moan about how bad they and their families have it while they wait to collect their monthly check all while they type away on their smartphones looking at new tv's to buy.

[Papewaio]

They do not!

I protest!

They use their smartphones to look at new tv's to loot from a local shopkeeper as a political statement to stick it to the Man!

And to look up which cake to eat for their lard arses.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wait. I'm sorry. Are you saying the NYPD doesn't handle terrorism and national security?

The Met is basically the British FBI, which is the the Commisioner is a Commisioner and not a Chief Constable.

He is head honcho o' the British Police. Except he has to worry about the IPCC and HMIC.

[Greyblades]

The one thing that really made my blood boil this thread was someone said how they were using their blackberry networks to communicate. How poor and downtrodden can you be with a smartphone. It's absurd. I hate how people whine and moan about how bad they and their families have it while they wait to collect their monthly check all while they type away on their smartphones looking at new tv's to steal.
Corrected.
edit: dang ninja'd.

[Papewaio]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/britains-most-wanted-retailers-physically-sick-at-looters-who-tried-on-shoes-in-157m-rampage-20110810-1ilfn.html


Despite the extraordinary scenes, some of those caught up in the chaos failed to lose their sense of humour.
A hand-written sign posted in the window of a Manchester Subway restaurant told customers: ‘‘Due to the imminent collapse of society we regret to announce we are closing at 6pm tonight’’.

An employee from Manchester bookstore Waterstones said the shop would not close its doors despite escalating violence in the city, saying: "We'll stay open. If they steal some books they might learn something."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/britains-most-wanted-retailers-physically-sick-at-looters-who-tried-on-shoes-in-157m-rampage-20110810-1ilfn.html#ixzz1UaJndnal

Funny that the oppressed masses have no interest in books... all they want is sports gear, tvs & sound systems, phones and cash...

[Vladimir]

No he's saying that with Scotland Yard they are part city police force and FBI and national counter-terrorism. They also have a few in/famous unit(s) that are essentially SAS in police uniform.

That's pretty much what the NYPD does. It's called the post 9/11 world. There is also, of course, a large FBI presence in NY.

I'm not complaining but I hear the excuses coming. A bunch of kids are rioting unchecked in your (well, not your) capitol. Get it under control.

[Centurion1]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/britains-most-wanted-retailers-physically-sick-at-looters-who-tried-on-shoes-in-157m-rampage-20110810-1ilfn.html



Funny that the oppressed masses have no interest in books... all they want is sports gear, tvs & sound systems, phones and cash...

classic british understatement right there by that employee.

[Greyblades]

Funny that the oppressed masses have no interest in books... all they want is sports gear, tvs & sound systems, phones and cash...
Ooh, I might go to london in the next few days and loot me some books if they arent going anywhere, always wanted the entire redwall collection and who's going to notice another looter?

...Damn thats probably the sort of thing thats going through the heads of most of the looters. I feel realy despicable for thinking it.

[Fragony]

LOL http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1646161/bcaed1dd/rellen.html

[Adrian II]

The one thing that really made my blood boil this thread was someone said how they were using their blackberry networks to communicate. How poor and downtrodden can you be with a smartphone. It's absurd. I hate how people whine and moan about how bad they and their families have it while they wait to collect their monthly check all while they type away on their smartphones looking at new tv's to buy.

Nobody in the UK or elsewhere 'whined and moaned' they were poor, that's just a strawman. They don't all collect welfare checks either. In an earlier post I mentioned that quite a few rioters appearing in Magistrate's Court yesterday morning had jobs. Like football hooligans these are apparently normal youngsters running out of control as a result of bad parenting, bad policing, bad genes and bad examples in society at large. Nor is this anything new among British or other yoof. Reading A Clockwork Orange will inform you better about what's been going on than any rightwing or leftwing talking points.

There is a good article today in The Guardian about the mixed composition of the groups of looters. A quote:


Jay Kast, 24, a youth worker from East Ham who has witnessed rioting across London over the last three nights, said he was concerned that black community leaders were wrongly identifying a problem "within".

"I've seen Turkish boys, I've seen Asian boys, I've seen grown white men," he said. "They're all out there taking part." He recognised an element of opportunism in the mass looting but said an underlying cause was that many young people felt "trapped in the system". "They're disconnected from the community and they just don't care," he said.

In some senses the rioting has been unifying a cross-section of deprived young men who identify with each other, he added.

Kast gave the example of how territorial markers which would usually delineate young people's residential areas – known as 'endz', 'bits' and 'gates' – appear to have melted away.

"On a normal day it wouldn't be allowed – going in to someone else's area. A lot of them, on a normal day, wouldn't know each other and they might be fighting," Kast said.

"Now they can go wherever they want. They're recognising themselves from the people they see on the TV [rioting]. This is bringing them together."

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-who-took-part)

AII

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm in agreement with Adrian. The rioters with jobs shot down my thoughts that these were mostly welfare bums.

In the end it shows how fragile civilization is, and how close 'normal' people are to rioting and destroying for fun. One final quote (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-fighting-neighbourhoods);


In his coffee shop in Stoke Newington, Karagoz tried to explain another feature of these riots – why Turkish and Kurdish youths had generally not joined the looting.

"We have businesses and work hard for what we have. As parents we want our children to work, earn money and be able to buy what they want, not steal it. Our young people know we would be ashamed of them if they were doing this."

CR

[Adrian II]

I'm in agreement with Adrian. The rioters with jobs shot down my thoughts that these were mostly welfare bums.

In the end it shows how fragile civilization is, and how close 'normal' people are to rioting and destroying for fun. One final quote (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-fighting-neighbourhoods);



CR

I haven't seen one Chinese among the rioters either. I suppose some ethnic minorities cultivate traditional, even rural virtues which "we" as a society have forgotten, like: hard work, sense of duty, education, sacrifice, respect.

Instead we let these kids roam the streets unopposed, just as we let our bankers rob us blind without a peep.

AII

[Ignoramus]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

[Adrian II]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

They should probably have clamped down immediately when the rioting in Tottenham started. For days on end, thugs of all age and races and creeds have seen on tv that they can rule the streets because the police will retreat. Policing has been a disaster, just like it was in France in 2005 where police stood idly by as thugs ransacked their own neighbourhood for days, until copycats all across France had seen enough and began to emulate them.

AII

Painting by Nicola Verlato

https://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1608/nicolaverlato2.jpg

[Visor]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

Agreed 100% here. Force is what is needed.

[Ronin]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

totally agree.
you don´t discuss underlying causes when the forest is already burning, you call the firefighters and dump a whole lot of water on it.
after you put the fires out you can look at the underlying causes to try to make sure it doesn´t happen again....but not before you control the situation.
put the police and the army in the streets and start kicking some serious ass.

[Papewaio]

who's going to notice another looter?

I think you've hit one of the nails square on the head.

The internet has seen trolls abound due to the simple fact they can be anonymous.

Now instead of getting cheap thrills on the internet, imagine the risk reward equation when you can get your favourite things for free.

It would not surprise me that a higher then normal ratio of the rioters would be trolls on the internet too... kind of like how serial killers are more likely to abuse animals... there's someone's PhD Thesis to study.

[econ21]

Force is what is needed.

It is easy to say this, but in practice, things are more nuanced. Remember that what sparked the riots was the police shooting dead a young man in Tottenham. I can't blame the police for not being more heavy handed in the first night of rioting after that. Ex ante, it might be thought that a more forceful response would further inflame the situation. However, ex post, it does seem that the apparent policy of containment and allowing several hours of unimpeded looting encouraged wider outbreaks the following night. I guess the police have learned from that.

The following night, I think there were simply not enough police around to cope. You've probably seen the video in this thread of 8 riot police confronting a mob and having to retreat. Using force in that situation was just not an option: they would have been overwhelmed.

Last night there were finally enough police in London, but the depleted numbers elsewhere - notably Manchester - enabled parallel copy cat action elsewhere.

[Adrian II]

I think you've hit one of the nails square on the head.

The internet has seen trolls abound due to the simple fact they can be anonymous.

Now instead of getting cheap thrills on the internet, imagine the risk reward equation when you can get your favourite things for free.

It would not surprise me that a higher then normal ratio of the rioters would be trolls on the internet too... kind of like how serial killers are more likely to abuse animals... there's someone's PhD Thesis to study.

I think anonymous web trolls would be risk-evaders rather than thrill seekers, no?

AII

[Ignoramus]

It is easy to say this, but in practice, things are more nuanced. Remember that what sparked the riots was the police shooting dead a young man in Tottenham. I can't blame the police for not being more heavy handed in the first night of rioting after that. Ex ante, it might be thought that a more forceful response would further inflame the situation. However, ex post, it does seem that the apparent policy of containment and allowing several hours of unimpeded looting encouraged wider outbreaks the following night. I guess the police have learned from that.

The following night, I think there were simply not enough police around to cope. You've probably seen the video in this thread of 8 riot police confronting a mob and having to retreat. Using force in that situation was just not an option: they would have been overwhelmed.

Last night there were finally enough police in London, but the depleted numbers elsewhere - notably Manchester - enabled parallel copy cat action elsewhere.

What's your view on whether they should send in the army?

[Adrian II]

It is easy to say this, but in practice, things are more nuanced. Remember that what sparked the riots was the police shooting dead a young man in Tottenham. I can't blame the police for not being more heavy handed in the first night of rioting after that. Ex ante, it might be thought that a more forceful response would further inflame the situation. However, ex post, it does seem that the apparent policy of containment and allowing several hours of unimpeded looting encouraged wider outbreaks the following night. I guess the police have learned from that.

The following night, I think there were simply not enough police around to cope. You've probably seen the video in this thread of 8 riot police confronting a mob and having to retreat. Using force in that situation was just not an option: they would have been overwhelmed.

Last night there were finally enough police in London, but the depleted numbers elsewhere - notably Manchester - enabled parallel copy cat action elsewhere.

I appreciate your realistic assessment. As bad as this is, London is not a warzone. I would say however that the police should have intervened much more forcefully the moment the first building was set alight in Tottenham. That's a definite no-no in any civilized society. It goes beyond protest, it signals the start of random violence and the victimisation of innocents on an ever increasing scale. The Met, like every British or other western police force, are supposed to have a special unit of heavyweights for these situations. They have rubber bullets, special batons and water canon at their disposal, suitable for dousing the flames in every sense of the word. Use them before it's too late.

AII

[Papewaio]

I think anonymous web trolls would be risk-evaders rather than thrill seekers, no?

AII

That is one of the things, most of them think that they are just one more hoody in a crowd... they aren't on the whole marching around with their faces uncovered.

Trolls get a thrill out of making misery of other people... I've seen some of the footage on BBC.co.uk of a rioter calmly going up to a store and lighting some clothes on fire... it wasn't to steal anything... it was purely the thrill of destroying something and getting away with it.

[HoreTore]

The London youth are cleaning up the mess:

http://v01s10.stream.fasthost.no:80/download/5sWNe-HfYMJYU6NDKmhBdw/1312976072/vgtv/streaming/compressed/42741/flash_1000.mp4

It's only in Norwegian for the intro, don't worry.

[HoreTore]

That is one of the things, most of them think that they are just one more hoody in a crowd... they aren't on the whole marching around with their faces uncovered.

Trolls get a thrill out of making misery of other people... I've seen some of the footage on BBC.co.uk of a rioter calmly going up to a store and lighting some clothes on fire... it wasn't to steal anything... it was purely the thrill of destroying something and getting away with it.

On that note, can anyone of us honestly say that destroying stuff isn't fun? No, I don't mean destruction like this, due to our socialized* conscience, we will feel bad after destroying someone elses stuff. But give us something that wuldn't be a loss if it gets destroyed, will we not happily go about destroying it?

Like old cars headed for the junkyard; how many of those gets taken to a field and driven till the wheels fall off first?

My cousin bought an old house a year ago, and had to, among other things, take down a cuple of walls. How did he do it? He invited a few friends, who happily smashed it up with sledgehammer. Payment? Heck no, it was fun!




*socialized as in the social science term, not the political term

[Ignoramus]

Edit: Sorry, incorrect. Apologies.

[Adrian II]

That is one of the things, most of them think that they are just one more hoody in a crowd... they aren't on the whole marching around with their faces uncovered.

Have you seen any footage? The looters and rioters aren't covered at all. They don't care. They know London is awash with CCTV, they go about their 'business' regardless. They talk to journalists and each other on (mobile) camera and take pictures of themselves and their freinds in the act and put them on their Facebook accounts, knowing they may well be caught.

AII

[Furunculus]

one of britain's foremost strategists on the riots and their cause:

http://lindleyfrench.blogspot.com/2011/08/londons-burning.html

[PanzerJaeger]

After watching the paltry police response to these riots, I'm reminded of LA and thankful that we have the right to bear arms over here in the states. Not so much because these riots have been particularly deadly, but because I know when America's black underclass takes to the streets, it is invariably more violent, more extreme, and far more dangerous. Even as Britain's cities burn, the rioters are (unknowingly) displaying classic British civility.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bEG2AMaM7w

[Adrian II]

one of britain's foremost strategists on the riots and their cause:

http://lindleyfrench.blogspot.com/2011/08/londons-burning.html

He'd better stick to strategy then. Everything he says is wrong. Starting with the ritual condemnation of the BBC. I've been watching the BBC for three days and I haven't heard a single journalist or guest excusing the looting.

And what is this nonsense about 'ethnic communities being at war'? If anything, what we see is one the one hand a racially mixed bag ofrioters and on the other racially mixed communities defending themselves against the looters. For every looter there are ten people defending their shops and streets, cleaning up, looking after the victims, blacks, whites, Asians and others working together. In case anyone didn't get the story about the Turks and Kurds defending their shops, they said they were 'defending everyone in our borough, Turks and non-Turks, whites and non-whites'. That's the true spirit of community and it's growing due to this episode, which is a good thing.

Some people just can't accept that it isn't about race or islam or migration or whatever. Lindley sounds like just another desk-top racist.

AII

[Furunculus]

funnily enough, he lives in the netherlands:


Breda, Netherlands
Julian Lindley-French is Eisenhower Professor of Defence Strategy at the Netherlands Defence Academy, Special Professor of Strategic Studies at the University of Leiden

[HoreTore]

One should never confuse trying to figure out why it happened and what caused it(because there's always a cause) with excusing the offenders. Unfortunately, some people have a thing for mixing the two.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Have you seen any footage? The looters and rioters aren't covered at all. They don't care. They know London is awash with CCTV, they go about their 'business' regardless. They talk to journalists and each other on (mobile) camera and take pictures of themselves and their freinds in the act and put them on their Facebook accounts, knowing they may well be caught.

One suspects that many are not intelligent enough to realise that they may be caught. In addition (as one little scroat from Manchester explained to Radio 4) they know that the worst punishment that will be meted out is an ASBO or a paltry fine.


After watching the paltry police response to these riots, I'm reminded of LA and thankful that we have the right to bear arms over here in the states. Not so much because these riots have been particularly deadly, but because I know when America's black underclass takes to the streets, it is invariably more violent, more extreme, and far more dangerous. Even as Britain's cities burn, the rioters are (unknowingly) displaying classic British civility.

Most of these young looters have easy access to firearms. The estates where they breed are thick with illegal guns. However, a lot of this looting is organised criminality and the gang bosses deploying the thugs are interested in profits from the loot gained. If there was genuine revolution in the air, one would expect rioters to be opening fire. In reality, these "unemployed" are supplementing their welfare income and supplying the criminal gangs with electronic goods for resale. Guns are bad for business.

[classical_hero]

Most of these young looters have easy access to firearms. The estates where they breed are thick with illegal guns. However, a lot of this looting is organised criminality and the gang bosses deploying the thugs are interested in profits from the loot gained. If there was genuine revolution in the air, one would expect rioters to be opening fire. In reality, these "unemployed" are supplementing their welfare income and supplying the criminal gangs with electronic goods for resale. Guns are bad for business.I think you missed the point of his argument.

[Furunculus]

harriat harridan gets slapped down by Gove, and then by brendan o'niell:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/neilobrien1/100100392/harriet-harman-and-the-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-progressive-left/

[Vladimir]

harriat harridan gets slapped down by Gove, and then by brendan o'niell:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/neilobrien1/100100392/harriet-harman-and-the-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-progressive-left/

I prefer Harriet Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Jones) myself.

[econ21]

What's your view on whether they should send in the army?

My emotional knee jerk reaction would be to support it. However, pragmatically, I don't think it makes sense. The police should be able to deal with the situation, with better planning and tactics. The fact that London was quiet last night with 16,000 officers on the streets shows that. Getting the police able to deal with criminality seems preferable to calling in the army.

Furthermore, there are downsides to using the army. It risks making the whole thing more political. At the moment, the rioters have absolutely no support or cause worth a name. Ordinary people despise them as thieves. If it becomes a pseudo-"war" against authority, it may fan the flames and cause longer term problems. Riot police are well trained in handling mobs - the army are a much blunter instrument. The worst case scenario is like in Northern Ireland in 1969, when the army were sent in to protect the Catholic community and quickly became seen as its enemies.

At the moment, it feels to me that this wil blow over almost as a kind of mid-summer madness. People are being killed. All decent people hate the looting. It's enough - it's got to stop. And I think it will fizzle out if the police are allowed to do their job. There will be longer term lessons to be drawn with regards to future prevention and response, of course.

My answer might have been very different if London had continued to burn last night.

One thing I would like to see is more arrests rather than containment. The looting is going on in part because the looters know they are likely to get away with it. Arrests have not been happening enough for various reasons - one arrest requiring pulling several officers out of the frontlines for one. But there are signs this too is changing and the smaller the scale of the unrest, the more easy it will be to apprehend the criminals.

[Adrian II]

One suspects that many are not intelligent enough to realise that they may be caught. In addition (as one little scroat from Manchester explained to Radio 4) they know that the worst punishment that will be meted out is an ASBO or a paltry fine.


If only it were that simple.

Here's (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8693162/London-riots-primary-school-worker-admits-burglary.html) one of our unintelligent jobless poor. This man has been arraigned this morning, along with people ranging from their early teens into their forties. Like I said these are not disadvantaged youth, nor are they marginalised thugs.

They're all-sorts, just like football hooligans. Most of them will have the feeling that they wake up from a nightmare, an episode of sudden madness.


Attoh, who the court heard has completed an ICT B-Tech at Hackney Community College and was due to have an interview for an apprenticeship on Tuesday, admitted theft by finding.

The student, who was fined £150, had been receiving Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) while completing his B-Tech, but over the summer was supported by his mother, the court heard.

AII

[gaelic cowboy]

I cant believe they started some criac in Gloucester last night, how can the police cope if this things starts spreading to the smaller towns and cites like Gloucester.

[Kagemusha]

The Turks,Kurds,Chinese,Koreans, Sikhs, Some of the Londoners and the list goes on, have shown example how to stop this. The communities have to start working together, defending their homes,shops and blocks. The looting will stop quite fast when the looters will understand that getting that HD TV might cost you a serious whooping. People will just have to stop acting like sacrificial lambs.

[econ21]

The video below makes me almost physically sick - rioters appearing to help an injured boy up and then robbing him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo

I don't know the full story behind it - who was the boy? Was he innocent or a looter looted? But the inhumanity is shocking.

Just an update - the boy was innocent - a Malaysian student, on his way to buy food to break his Ramadan fast apparently.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/london-riots-youtube-victim-malaysian

Now please let them identify those who robbed him.

[Fisherking]

I cant believe they started some criac in Gloucester last night, how can the police cope if this things starts spreading to the smaller towns and cites like Gloucester.

I doubt that the police in the other cities will be as passive as those in London.

If they crack a few heads or even look like they plan to it will end in short order.

If the shop keepers can handle the crowds real policemen should have no trouble at all.

[gaelic cowboy]

from what I can tell there are about 66 places over 100000 population in the UK so that prob means maybe be 45 to 50 of them in England.

They will never cope if it starts spreading to the smaller places like gloucester which have round 124000ish.