Obama allows states to get waivers from No Child Left Behind

[a completely inoffensive name]

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=14257218

It is about time. What a massive failure of a policy. Competition does not make more students successful or make for better students, it gives incentives to schools to lower standards and it turns knowledge into digestible but forgettable facts. Those that succeed are those that actually give a crap, there is no use catering to those that just want to sit there, do no homework and pass with D's and C's.

[Centurion1]

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=14257218

It is about time. What a massive failure of a policy. Competition does not make more students successful or make for better students, it gives incentives to schools to lower standards and it turns knowledge into digestible but forgettable facts. Those that succeed are those that actually give a crap, there is no use catering to those that just want to sit there, do no homework and pass with D's and C's.

You essentially summed up the argument for proponents of school funding being tied to property taxes.

but yes. No child left behind was a flawed piece of legislature with nothing but the best interests. I wish it would just be gotten rid of entirely.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You essentially summed up the argument for proponents of school funding being tied to property taxes.

Perhaps, but that isn't my stance. I think funding shouldn't be tied to a fluctuating tax like property taxes. Make it a flat tax on each person living in the district. The larger the district, the larger the school generally is, so it all works out. Also make the amount of tax decided on the local level. I don't care for all this state shifting of money from high performing areas to low performing areas. Just feeds the bureaucracy that eats up the majority of the education budget anyway.

[Centurion1]

Perhaps, but that isn't my stance. I think funding shouldn't be tied to a fluctuating tax like property taxes. Make it a flat tax on each person living in the district. The larger the district, the larger the school generally is, so it all works out. Also make the amount of tax decided on the local level. I don't care for all this state shifting of money from high performing areas to low performing areas. Just feeds the bureaucracy that eats up the majority of the education budget anyway.

I agree for the most part (you know we share similar views on education) but the depressing part of it is that even if funding were fair and schools weren't overcrowded or any of those fixable issues, education would still have alot of students in low performing areas who just don't care. That's why I believe the future is in magnet and charter schools (and maybe one day in the future even boarding style schools of that nature for promising students) because the naive and hopeless goal of erasing poverty through education in one swipe is a dumb idea to cling to. Erase poverty bit by bit and realize that you can never truly erase it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I agree for the most part (you know we share similar views on education) but the depressing part of it is that even if funding were fair and schools weren't overcrowded or any of those fixable issues, education would still have alot of students in low performing areas who just don't care. That's why I believe the future is in magnet and charter schools (and maybe one day in the future even boarding style schools of that nature for promising students) because the naive and hopeless goal of erasing poverty through education in one swipe is a dumb idea to cling to. Erase poverty bit by bit and realize that you can never truly erase it.

Yes, definitely 100% agree. Get those kids vouchers of their own, and allow private schools to take in those whose parents care about their children's education. Provided that the private schools adhere to the same standards that the public schools adhere to (which are hopefully high, depending on the state).

When you give the students a choice of schools, those that have parents that care and/or are involved (and thus students that try at life) will naturally separate from those that do not care, usually because their parents think of school as babysitting for 6.5 hours while they work.

EDIT: Let's have competition between schools not between students. That is how we get smarter citizens.

[Centurion1]

Yes, definitely 100% agree. Get those kids vouchers of their own, and allow private schools to take in those whose parents care about their children's education. Provided that the private schools adhere to the same standards that the public schools adhere to (which are hopefully high, depending on the state).

When you give the students a choice of schools, those that have parents that care and/or are involved (and thus students that try at life) will naturally separate from those that do not care, usually because their parents think of school as babysitting for 6.5 hours while they work.

EDIT: Let's have competition between schools not between students. That is how we get smarter citizens.

Magnet and Charter schools are government run but your idea with vouchers works well also. Though it does create issues with religion because the majority of private schools are religious. This sin't necessarily an issue because catholic high schools especially are pretty well respected for education but could create some issues if vouchers alone were used.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Magnet and Charter schools are government run but your idea with vouchers works well also.
Yeah, I forgot to clarify, I want the vouchers along with the magnet and charter schools. I want nearly everything that is the reform toolbox to be implemented at this point, with the exception of merit pay, which is ironically anything but.



Though it does create issues with religion because the majority of private schools are religious. This sin't necessarily an issue because catholic high schools especially are pretty well respected for education but could create some issues if vouchers alone were used.
I am a bit iffy about Constitutional law, but I thought Lemon v Kurtzman already gave the OK on giving vouchers/money to private religious schools as long as the government's purpose was secular in nature (lemon test applies here).


EDIT: Nevermind, vouchers were specifically clarified in Zelman v Simmons-Harris I guess. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelman_v._Simmons-Harris

[Centurion1]

Yeah, I forgot to clarify, I want the vouchers along with the magnet and charter schools. I want nearly everything that is the reform toolbox to be implemented at this point, with the exception of merit pay, which is ironically anything but.


I am a bit iffy about Constitutional law, but I thought Lemon v Kurtzman already gave the OK on giving vouchers/money to private religious schools as long as the government's purpose was secular in nature (lemon test applies here).


EDIT: Nevermind, vouchers were specifically clarified in Zelman v Simmons-Harris I guess. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelman_v._Simmons-Harris

No it's fine and a lot of kids who weren't catholic went to my local catholic high school because it is superior to the public schools around the area but you know people would find a way to **** and moan which would eventually create bureaucratic waste and red tape.

[a completely inoffensive name]

people would find a way to **** and moan which would eventually create bureaucratic waste and red tape.

Also one of the two things that I don't like the Teacher's Union doing is that they lobby to make it hard to open up any sort of private school in a region because they don't like the competition.

[Centurion1]

Also one of the two things that I don't like the Teacher's Union doing is that they lobby to make it hard to open up any sort of private school in a region because they don't like the competition.

I love and hate the teacher's union. However, i still consider it to be one of the few unions still truly necessary to protect its workers rights. What they really don't like isn't competition why would you think that? Teachers work at private schools too. They dislike them because they dislike not having any power or negotiation ability. Private schools are the teacher unions kryptonite.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I love and hate the teacher's union. However, i still consider it to be one of the few unions still truly necessary to protect its workers rights. What they really don't like isn't competition why would you think that?

If the state is a right to work state, than the private schools will most likely have teachers much cheaper than those working for the public schools. This makes the public school teachers look wasteful and thus the public will likely demand for their benefits/wages to be on par with the private teachers. Now the union as a whole is much weaker and has lost a large amount of potential money from its base. Introduce competition in the labor market and the market will naturally depress the wages, it's how it works for every sector.

I agree that the Teacher's Union is still worth keeping around though.

[Centurion1]

If the state is a right to work state, than the private schools will most likely have teachers much cheaper than those working for the public schools. This makes the public school teachers look wasteful and thus the public will likely demand for their benefits/wages to be on par with the private teachers. Now the union as a whole is much weaker and has lost a large amount of potential money from its base. Introduce competition in the labor market and the market will naturally depress the wages, it's how it works for every sector.

I agree that the Teacher's Union is still worth keeping around though.

No most people actually don't think that when they look a private school teachers being paid less. you technically don't have to accredited as a teacher at a private school. also class size is smaller, lets be honest your students are better, and your adminstration is far more strict about backing you up with students and parents.

Its a trade off of less pay for fewer ulcers (usually, obviously not always)

[a completely inoffensive name]

you technically don't have to accredited as a teacher at a private school. also class size is smaller, lets be honest your students are better, and your adminstration is far more strict about backing you up with students and parents.

Its a trade off of less pay for fewer ulcers (usually, obviously not always)

What you said is 100% correct, but I don't think for a second that the average citizen or even the typical parent knows any of that when they see the comparison. Parents today are disconnected with their schools, they don't know what is going on. Those that still have their children in public schools after the voucher program is implemented will be mostly the kind of parents who don't pay attention and will only see the difference in numbers, not the difference in context because they don't work hard enough in gathering info about the subject.

I feel this is how Wisconsin's teacher witch hunt played out.

[Centurion1]

What you said is 100% correct, but I don't think for a second that the average citizen or even the typical parent knows any of that when they see the comparison. Parents today are disconnected with their schools, they don't know what is going on. Those that still have their children in public schools after the voucher program is implemented will be mostly the kind of parents who don't pay attention and will only see the difference in numbers, not the difference in context because they don't work hard enough in gathering info about the subject.

I feel this is how Wisconsin's teacher witch hunt played out.

Yeah I have trouble recognizing what those average citizens (i.e. criminally stupid) people think since my mother is a teacher. All I see is the stress and the pain it causes her to be called a ***** or find things written on desks like Mrs. Centurion iz a lezbo. Those hurt twice as bad because she then realizes how freaking retarded some of the students are. Yeah so it just pisses me off to no end when teachers ar emade out to be bad guys. My mother has 2 bachelor degrees and a masters in education and shes making like 47k a year. That really sounds like a greedy witch to me.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yeah I have trouble recognizing what those average citizens (i.e. criminally stupid) people think since my mother is a teacher. All I see is the stress and the pain it causes her to be called a ***** or find things written on desks like Mrs. Centurion iz a lezbo. Those hurt twice as bad because she then realizes how freaking retarded some of the students are. Yeah so it just pisses me off to no end when teachers ar emade out to be bad guys. My mother has 2 bachelor degrees and a masters in education and shes making like 47k a year. That really sounds like a greedy witch to me.

If I was dictator of the US for a day, I would clean out the useless bureaucracy/admin and privatize the support staff and then take all those savings and make the base pay for all teachers $65,000 minimum. They really deserve more than they get.

[Centurion1]

The administration is ridiculous in schools and such much damn support staff................ does every school really need a damn psychiatrist at all times! Have your standard guidance counselor and give out vouchers if you really need a student to speak with a psychologist (which quite a few guidance counselors have degrees in).

The administration though........ I remember if my high school teachers wrote me up for anything...... I knew I was screwed. My mother says sometimes they don't even bother processing them so half the time teachers don't even bother writing referrals.... they are afraid of parents. Which is another pillar in what is wrong with education. Parents have no damn place in it so they can get the hell out. The worst ones are the highly educated ones who decide they know best.

I bet more teachers would forgo that pay rise and maybe eve take a pay cut if you kept class size manageable and gave them a teacher's aide.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The administration is ridiculous in schools and such much damn support staff................ does every school really need a damn psychiatrist at all times! Have your standard guidance counselor and give out vouchers if you really need a student to speak with a psychologist (which quite a few guidance counselors have degrees in).

I honestly feel like the general upkeep of the schools would be much, much better if the sanitation jobs at least were contracted out to private companies who compete for the contract every few years or so. Maybe the bathrooms won't be one giant piss trough anymore.



The administration though........ I remember if my high school teachers wrote me up for anything...... I knew I was screwed. My mother says sometimes they don't even bother processing them so half the time teachers don't even bother writing referrals.... they are afraid of parents. Which is another pillar in what is wrong with education. Parents have no damn place in it so they can get the hell out. The worst ones are the highly educated ones who decide they know best.
Yeah, I think the parents have no business in electing the school board or making personal demands to the staff itself. If you want to be involved with your child's school, get involved in your PTA/PTSA.



I bet more teachers would forgo that pay rise and maybe eve take a pay cut if you kept class size manageable and gave them a teacher's aide.

I do not doubt that. I don't think my ceramics teacher appreciated a class of 45 students, with an old and deteriorating kiln, and no increase in the budget for clay. Hell, she wasn't even going to have a TA, I volunteered for that role to get out of a typing class.